Bad news folks! Engine is coming out of the car
 

Bad news guys.. Here is the whole story as accurately as i can recall it:
I commissioned DCR to build me a longblock and when it was completed the longblock was shipped to to me here in Utah. I provided a used longblock to DCR that has some minor fire damage on it. (mostly plastic sensors and stuff deformed / melted , and discoloration on the outside of the engine, but none of these sensors are going to be used) . Upon receiving this block DCR inspected it and determined that the block/head itself is fine to use for a rebuild and informed me of this and we move along on the build using this block. During this process DCR informed me of several items i need to provide to you so that you can properly rebuild my engine and i have these items delivered to their shop for my build. They reconditioned everything on the block / head. Hone the bore/ deck the cylinder head so everything is perfect, basically the whole 9 yards.

The used longblock i provided to DCR had the housing that goes around the cam/lobe sticking out of the side of the head pre-installed as well as the fuel pump preinstalled. (With the cam follower in there as well, obviously the pump was unusable as it was on the engine when it was damaged by the fire )
When i refer to the cam follower im referring to the small metal cup that slides inside the housing before you put the CDFP in. (It doesnt come out by itself when you take out the fuel pump and you cant tell its there unless you know what it is and your looking for it specifically.
The timed longblock was shipped to me with the housing that goes around the tri-lobe that drives the fuel pump pre-installed on the cylinder head, but no cam follower or cam driven fuel pump pre-installed. DCR neglected to inform me that it needed to be installed before installing the cam driven fuel pump.

In my ignorance i installed my CDFP with the cam follower missing. In the month following the engine was installed it my car i was battling with getting a oil drain line that would work with the Medieval manifold / S256 turbo combination and not kink on the side of the transfer case. Finally get the car up and running, put ~40 miles on it. Had various issues like dirty MAF sensor that made it run like shit, but that got fixed and the car felt fine, i didnt notice any odd sounds coming from the pump until it broke. Anyways, the lack of the cam follower cause the end of the retainer to snap off of the cam driven fuel pump and then it got ground up by the lobes that drive the fuel pump into small enough pieces to make its way into the oil channels that go into the head and could possibily be all over inside the oil system in my engine.

The shop i had it towed to is recommending that i pull the engine, have it disassembled, cleaned, and reassembled. (assuming no other damage has been done) The total extent of the damage caused by this is unknown at this time. Unfortuneatly i dont have a garage to work on my car anymore, and its below freezing and snowing outside so i cant work on my car behind my office anymore. I also have school coming up this semester which starts after new years so i have to have a car. Not to mention i am financially tapped out from this build. Obviously i am in a very unpleasant situation both financially and with the lack of a garage to work on my car in the winter time and the time issue.

"Hindsight is 20/20" Obviously the longblock from DCR should have never shipped from them without the cam follower installed or with no notification from them that i needed to install it. DCR definately should have done something like:

Ship the timed longblock with the cam follower installed (I certainly would have provided one if asked)
Ship the timed longblock without lobe-housing installed on the head, forcing me to install it myself and absolving any responsibility on their part.
or simply inform me somehow that i need to install the cam follower before putting in the pump.


Now Darrell Cox called me today and i informed him of my pickle and he sounded genuinely concerned and wanted to help me out and i am very appreciative for that. He wants me to ship him my longblock so he can look at it. This would involve me paying the shop where my car is at to uninstall the engine and reinstall it once they get it back. He seemed to want to help me out but to what degree or at what cost im not 100% certain as the total extent of the damage is not known at this time, he promised me 1-2 days turn around time (keep in mind i was told 1 month on my original engine build and that ended up taking 5 months before i had an engine from them). If i do ship him my engine it will take atleast 2 weeks just in shipping time to get it there and back from here in Utah. Add that to the time my shop needs to uninstall and reinstall my engine that would definately push me over the edge on time frame before school starts.

Or I could have the engine sent to a local machine shop to have them disassemble , clean/refurbish , reassemble. I have custom head studs from DCR and other custom work done on my cylinder head from DCR so i would need to get things like torque information and valve lash specifications from them.


So i ask you the users of this forum for some input and your opinions:

What should i do given the fact i need to have a running car by the end of the month?


Do you think of installing the cam follower / ensuring it is installed as solely my responsibility as the customer? As much as say installing spark plugs or putting oil/coolant in the engine?


Before reading this post did you know what a cam follower was or that it was required for proper operation of a MZR DISI engine? Would you expect an engine builder like DCR to either preinstall the cam follower for you or inform you that it is required given the same circumstances as my build?

What do you think i should expect from DCR to do for me as their customer in this situation?

DS Edit: just in case u guys diddent know what the cam follower was

http://www.mazdaspeedforums.org/foru...es-wear-18605/

Horse shit....its there fault....they should have installed it. If something was missing they should have notified you. Thats carelessness on there part.

FYCN

Good luck with the engine, I hope it all get sorted out.

i know what the cam follower was and after that GIANT thread from randy that was forever ago i checked mine to make sure it diddent look like the VW guys.

ill tell u right now this isent the first fuckup DCR has and i wont go into details but if they knew that the cam follower was missing they sure as hell should have told you. what if the timing chain tensioner was missing? or the oil pickup? does it really matter what part is missing? its not like they forgot 1 of 5 bolts on the IM or something. dont take this lightly and dont let them get away without doing things right here. DCR is no fly by night company and they know what the right course of action is here. by not making this right they are basically absolving themselves from any further mazdaspeed community business. we know from experience we dont like getting vendor fucked around here.

the fact that the cam follower was included in the original engine block should make this 100% their fault. if they said the engine is 100% ready to go except for x parts then thats on you phil.

Dam man that sucks. I dont know much about what to do in your situation but i think that DCR is liable to get your car up and running. They should have put the part or told you that you needed it. you supplied other parts without a problem so why should this part be any different. they gave you an incomplete product that you thought was complete and ready to install. Maybe they had someone inexperienced working on it and just made the error. In my opinion they are liable. Good luck getting everything back up and running.

let me get this straight...
the long block should include a cam follower.
the long block you go did not include the cam follower.
you were not told that you needed a cam follower.

seems cut and dry to me. i am sure it's tough if you just had a 5 month relationship with these guys trying to build you the engine you wanted. but if they screwed the pooch, then they need to fix it. at their expense.

I also asked a few engine builders these questionson through email / pm:

1. At this point there are 3 possibilities for you as an DISI engine builder, Do you:

A. You send me the long block with a cam follower preinstalled in the cam/lobe housing ready for the cam driven pump to be installed (Customer will buy a new cam follower if needed)

B. You send me the long block without a cam follower preinstalled but inform me that it needs to be installed before installing the cam driven fuel pump.

C. You send me the long block without a cam follower preinstalled but neglect to inform me that it needs to be installed before installed the cam driven fuel pump.



2. Do you assume or expect that your average customer (or even an automotive shop doing an engine install!) knows what a cam follower is and that it is required for proper operation?



3. If you did send out a longblock with option C and the customer installs the cam driven fuel pump without the puck and causes damage to his engine (extent of damage unknown at this time could be relatively minor or something major (think jumping timing)). What percentage of responsibility would you be willing to take for this error? 0-100% (Assume that once the total dollar cost to repair this is known you will pay this %)

4. Do you think of installing the cam follower as solely the customers responsibility? As much as say installing spark plugs or putting oil/coolant in the engine?


Here are their responses

Wassup / Jeff from Protege Garage

Jeff / Aminzer from Vivid Motor Sports


Charles from P3:

John from PT Performance:

Obviously these are competing vendors to DCR so they have a bias which should be taken into account.

Also i realize that it is human nature to want to blame someone else

Would it be faster/cheaper to ship them the whole car, and let them worry about getting the engine unloaded/fixed/reinstalled and shipping the car back? Cars ship cross country in 2-3 days.

I would work on the same theory as broncojd78.
You sent a long block with a cam follower installed.
They asked you to provide various parts that were not reusable, you provided those parts.
They did not ask you to provide a cam follower, you would therefore presume they had reused and installed the one in the long block you provided.
They sent you a complete long block without a cam follower installed without mentioning it was missing.
Now because of that your engine requires extensive work.
That is your starting point.

I would be asking for them to pay for pulling the engine, shipping, repair, return shipping and re-installation, all before the deadline.
You may not get it all, but that is most definitely what I would be aiming for, reputation is everything and my guess is they want to keep a reputation.

Address the issue directly with Darrell Cox. Sounds like he sounded reasonable but neither you nor he addressed who would bear the financial pain of the fuck up.

It needs to be addressed, and the sooner the better.
Talk to him maturely about your concerns. But DO NOT negotiate from a position of weakness.
Either he pays for all the work to be done at the local shop, OR he pays for the local shop to pull, and reinstall, and he covers shipping both ways and comps the repair, by way of making right the fuck up and keeping reputation intact.
That is your starting point for negotiation.
He may not want to do that, in which case he should be explaining to you why you are partially responsible.
Then you work from there to a negotiated resolution.
Or you just dont trust him anymore, pay for everything locally and take him to small claims court for reimbursal, but that comes with risk, so weigh that over giving a little in negotiating a reasonable settlement.

Maybe contact palerider too....?

True... and a good idea. Less likely for another fuck up if they do ALL the work and they give you back a complete working car


EDIT: Having said all that. I have no idea what a cam follower is or what it looks like.

A question I have is this, did they ask you to provide a fuel pump, because the one that was on the engine was damaged?
If so what was your reply?
It sound like they took some things related to the FP off the old block and installed them on the new block allowing you to intall the new pump, but not the cam follower part. Does the cam follower come with the pump if you order a new oem pump?

If he's at fault he needs to bear the financial burden to make the situation right. Otherwise people like me who had planned to go to DCR for their engine build (I live in VA) will have no choice but to look elsewhere (PG?).

The long block was sent to you without either the cam follower installed or the cdfp?
If thats the case i would have to say it is partly your fault, if they had installed the cdfp without the cam follower it would be their fault, but they should at the very least have informed you that when the motor was sent out

I'm not much of a mechanic, but something doesn't sound right - I'm probably just not getting it. But - a cam follower I always pictured generically as a device that translates the motion of one thing (like a cam lobe) to another (like a valve.) So, if it's missing, there should be no contact between the two. In your case, no fuel pressure. Like I said, I must be missing something.

DCR fucked up, but it's the kind of fuckup you can expect doing a long distance rebuild - something always goes wrong, in your case it might have done some damage. I say you're committed, so scrape together some cash for a winter beater and follow through with DCR (if you trust them.) They have a lot of incentive to do right by you, so give them a chance, act like an adult (not that you're not.) It either works out or it doesn't, you're so far in by this point you have no choice really.

If you get the beater it relieves time issues and you can deal with it all with less pressure on yourself. Of course you've got several weeks before deciding, but thinking about it now you could start budgeting for it.

Shipping the car is an interesting idea.

This sucks dude! I'm wicked sorry to hear this I was really looking forward to what your car could do. I think, since they sent the motor back to you with the fuel pump installed, that it is their fault. I think this is why the people who built my motor wanted ONLY the long block with nothing attached. That way everything else is my responsability. Anything they put together is their fault you shouldn't have to take things apart when you recieve it. GL with everything

No they did not ask me to provide my working fuel pump i had back here in Utah, the long block was sent to me without the fuel pump installed, but with the housing the cam follower goes into was installed. Definately a grey area.



install order:

cylinder head -> cam lobe housing bolts to side of head -> slide in cam follower -> install fuel pump. To the untrained eye the cam follower looks to be part of the housing.

I installed the pump after i got the long block it back here. (I previously have swapped my pumps before which does not require knowledge of the cam follower in order to do, so installing it on a new long block appeared to be fairly cut-and-dry )



I sent darrell an email explaining my quandry in an adult/mature/civil manner. will keep you guys updated

So did they install the pump or did you?

Read the OP again. The motor was sent back without the fuel pump installed.

ooooo My B. Well then that changes things around I think.

tuff call. i can only relate to a chevy v8 with a mech fp. if u buy the longblock and it comes with a fp then its their fault. now if u buy the longlock and u dont get a pump then the responsibility of making sure that u dont forget to put the "pushrod" (or cam follower in our case) is on the customer.

this is where experience comes in handy...... i think dcr should help since u are one of the firsts builds and bad pr wouldnt be so good...but i think u need to take some responsibility for assuming that you know how to put a car together properly.

i sincerely wish u the best phil!!

Your last post says:
Hmmmm, your OP says this:
So now I am confused, those two statements are in conflict.
Which is correct????!!!!
The OP, or the statement just made in the post above?

They are both correct.

I sent DCR a used engine i bought from a salvage yard. Which had the fuel pump installed, but it was damaged due to fire.

DCR sent me an engine with the housing the bolts to the side of the head installed which the fuel pump bolts to, but no cam follower or fuel pump installed.

OK, what confused me was this:

In post 14 you sent them a block WITHOUT a fuel pump installed.

But your OP said you sent them a block WITH a fire damaged pump installed.

Both of those statements cannot be true at the same time.

So what I am guessing....... if I have it correct......... what you meant was, that you sent them a block with a damaged fuel pump installed but you had a good fuel pump at home....... correct??

Just making sure I have it straight.

sorry to hear that..good luck bro!

their fault in the end IMO.

be mature about it and they should do the same.

That is correct. i clarified that post now. :)

I made a poll: http://www.mazdaspeedforums.org/foru...r-claim-44175/

Same thing happend to me with a local shop when my motor blew.They swapped the fuel pumps for me but when they installed my fuel pump on the new motor they installe dit with no cam follower,It was makig loud clicking noise he said th emotor had to be broken in caus eit was sitting to long.I check the fuel pump no cam follower and it scratched th eshit out of my cam lobe.He said he never took it out.People need to read up on car before they fix motors.Im sorry about ur situation,they should be 100% resposible for ur engine.Good luck bro

What you should've asked all those other guys (pg, vivid, p3) is: If they recieved a long block, would they check to see if there was a cam follower installed before installing a new pump? If you had DCR build the motor and then another shop install the fuel pump and motor in the car, the blame would lie solely on the installer, not DCR.

As far as being responsible for the cost of pulling and reinstalling the motor and even shipping back to them, that is all on you my friend. This is the case with any other part or assembly that needs installation. Even if said part has a warranty, that does not cover installation. It never does. Now if you ship the whole car and the guys at DCR feel bad, you might get them to pull the motor and reinstall it, but they are not going pay to have someone else do it.

This is a very grey area.

My opinion is that IF the cam follower can be removed from the housing, with the housing installed, then its the customers responsibility.

If the cam follower can NOT be removed once the housing is installed, its the builders.

very grey area :(

setting the blame game aside

it reeks rookie to me on both sides
not knowing that it should have been there when it left DCR because they are just getting started on the Mazda platform
& not being sure of something like this when installing and firing up a new engine build

sorry but it's true

I'm truly sorry you are going through this though JJ
blowing a lot of your cash to try and get it something done to come up with a situation like this sucks regardless

the follower most certainly can be removed with the housing installed
my o-ring and wear area of the follower was inspected every time I swapped a CDFP which was done more than a few times

I agree with Ron's first assertion...

if you go digging far enough back, a couple of cars blew in the summer of 2008...these prolly were not cars you guys know of on MSF, but it might have made it onto M3F. 2 cars had, I think, CP-e CDFP's installed by the DEALER. both did not have the cam follower reinstalled...both blew within a week of each other...both covered by dealer, I believe.

at the end of the day, I believe no one wants to blow up even if it's covered and to that end, I believe if all parties were aware of this beforehand, they would've made sure to reinstall the cam follower to avoid such a circumstance....and that's where I agree with Ron's assertion re: rookie mistake.

Sorry JJ to hear about this...I was rooting for guys like you amongst others. Hope it all works out for the best!

Honestly though, i dont see how the oil could have got contaminated.

the fuel pump housing has an oil feed from the head, but no return. it cant circulate well.

im almost certain that if the pump was installed correctly, the oil was drained out of that housing, and the cam was inspected properly, the motor would be fine.

just in case u guys diddent know what the cam follower was

http://www.mazdaspeedforums.org/foru...es-wear-18605/

phil post this in the OP

ron your pump is still going strong... ! gah sorry bout this jj really hope it all pans out for ya..

Duiring my build I had to let my shop know many of the little technical issues with these motors... I specifically reminded the tech swapping the motor that he need to swap the follower(several times). Shortly after he had started swapping parts I went by to check on the progress--he had already swapped the HPFP over to the built motor, but my OEM motor was sitting on the floor with the cam follower still installed...

If I hadn't caught it, I'd be in the same situation as you--but I would be suing the shop, not PG. Just like you'd be suing the shop that swapped in the pump and not DCR....except you installed the pump.

It's a shitty situation, but if you installed the pump it's 100% your responsibility to ensure that all necessary components are there...


I say you buy a winter beater and take the stress off, then you can take you time getting the motor right...

This is very unfortunate and it's a mistake from both sides.

However the bigger issue is that you set yourself up with a heavily modified car as a DD and no garage or expectation to work on it. People that have been through engine builds, mods, etc will tell you that the deeper you go, the more time and effort it takes to address the little (or big in this case) issues that come up. Been there, done that ... it never retains stock reliability or ability to bring it to the dealer or any mechanic and go "fix it"

Anyways, rookie mistake on both sides and I would handle it by shipping the motor back to DCR - if possible the whole car - and letting them deal with the issue as they know it better than some other shop would who may introduce their own fail into the mix. I would say they should fix/inspect free of any charge but you may be on the hook for shipping the car/motor. The good thing about shipping the car is that it removes the hassle of pulling the engine yourself, DCR can test that the engine is running well in the car, and you can drive it back and not have to ship something back AND forth (such as the engine).

Good luck and sorry to hear this.

FYI they found chunks of metal in the oil galley in the housing and found some under the valve cover as well.. Im going to have the shop pull the oil pan and cut the filter so we can shed some more light on this situation.

This is a 2 headed monster in this situation...

1) DCR is new to direct injection and Mazda's in general. Its an honest mistake. We know DCR can build race motors and anyone who doubts this, is just fucking foolish. HOWEVER, this is a very serious oversight in which dealers themselves miss. I can account for 7 actual legit dealer r/r swaps on a new powerplants that ended in failure, just as you described.

2) You should have triple checked the setup and asked this question on the forum long before you shoehorned that engine in. Again, we all learn from simple mistakes and unfortunately, its the simple mistakes that are the most costly. Sorry to see you a victum of this.

Now, the damage has been done obviously, but what is your next step.

Financial obligation is a grey area here. Im very familiar with engine builds and 99% of the time, they are going to say fuck you, especially if they arent the ones installing that engine. Most failed engines are a result from an improper install, that is fact.

Since DCR is a legit operation, i would talk to Darrell and see if some sort of agreement can be met.. he doesnt want his name dragged through the mud in the Mazda platform that he is trying to gain market share in for one. Again, it was an honest mistake that anyone of us could have made.

Now, if it were me... I would do this locally. For one, its going to cost you some change to remove that engine, crate it up and ship it. More then likely, that cost alone is going to be enough to break this motor down, inspect it, clean it up, assemble, lube and time.

If Darrell steps up and offers a fix, then its worth sending back to him, but not just to inspect it and in the end, to tell you to go fuck yourself.

So, if Darrell doesn't want to accept liability as of right now for this engine, go with the local shop and fix the engine. This is how i would handle it if it were me and it makes no sense to send him an engine he wont repair.

Hate to say it JJ but the blame is a 60/40 split towards you. While saving money assembling some of the motor your self you made the same mistake DCR made and skipped the follower. Sorry man Shit happens hope you get through the rest of this with as little grief as possible.

Got a reply back from Darrell:

Thanks Darrell!

welp looks like u got your answer. see if u can find a local buddy who will let u use his garage. its not rocket science to take out a motor and u can save some cash that way.

so very glad to hear dcr did the "right" thing

im happy to hear this phil!!!!

this is an installation issue. the key issue is that a fuel pump was installed by someone who self admittedly hadnt heard of a cam follower.

dealers have screwed this up not because they got a flawed motor from mazda, but instead because they installed the fuel pump wrong. i hardly think that dealers are sueing mazda usa over their rookie mistake.

on a side note...im heartbroken over this. it sucks for all involved.