BOOM-'FREAKIN-BOOM

[Darksun280]

Originally Posted by cortytx8 How many engines popped with upgraded FPs?

alot

[X4 SRT]

The one thing I don't see anyone asking about is what the AFR's were when the motor went. I've been keeping up with these threads, and it seems a bit of them have been fairly moded, and had some sort of EM on them. It also seems that some of them have gone while crusing? What could cause this? Who really knows. I'm gonna go out on a limb though and say the car was probably running really lean at cruising speeds, and that's what caused it to go while driving on the highway. What else could it really be? Or maybe egt's were to high at cruising speeds and that caused the motor to let go. My guess is on something more along those lines. Something like that makes way more sense than some of this nonsense that is spread on this board. But thats just my two cents. Take it for what you will.

[whoosh@Realtune]

Originally Posted by bf360 are you guys talking about ron?

I was running 22-23psi in November of last year
that was dual blue spring (1.4bar) 44mm ewg boost control - compressor to EWG vacuum line / that's it
at that time, no MBC and the SB had zero to do with boost, timing, well pretty much was just there
I had slight MAF transfer table adjustments for the big MAF...that's about it

anyway, when I was booting above 20 I mixed Torco race fuel concentrate w/every tank

prior to boosting above 20, I ran 93-94 Sunoco Ultra
the added boost was neat to see on the gauge and neat to log as the map sensor was pegged lol
but it didn't yeild more power
well a bit more tq but less peak hp

[Darksun280]

Originally Posted by whoosh I was running 22-23psi in November of last year that was dual blue spring (1.4bar) 44mm ewg boost control - compressor to EWG vacuum line / that's it at that time, no MBC and the SB had zero to do with boost, timing, well pretty much was just there I had slight MAF transfer table adjustments for the big MAF...that's about it anyway, when I was booting above 20 I mixed Torco race fuel concentrate w/every tank prior to boosting above 20, I ran 93-94 Sunoco Ultra the added boost was neat to see on the gauge and neat to log as the map sensor was pegged lol but it didn't yeild more power well a bit more tq but less peak hp

Truth. I threw buckets of boost at this motor on my 60-1. It took the boost but created no power.

[Speed3FTW]

I wonder if fuel quality is playing a role in popping our motors.

I know here in CA our "premium" grade is a 91 octane/10% ethanol blend. I'm sure other states have the same. If the knock over time theory is indeed the cause, evidence can be found to back it up if a disproportionate number of motors are popping in these states, since more knock would occur when running this fuel vs the 93+ octane available elsewhere.

[fhaze]

That is an excellent point..

Has anyone done a geographical analysis on where the popped motors lived? 91 states vs 93 states...I doubt 2 points would make THAT much difference, but you never know.

[DaleNixon]

I don't think anyone's doing much with this data aside from freaking the fuck out that it exists.

[Speed3FTW]

Does anyone have a list of the people who have popped and where they are located?

If someone has it, maybe I can get the data from Mazda regarding the number of speeds that were sold in each state. I doubt they would hand out that information but hey, I could try.

It would give us more information to help put our finger on the problem. The results would be full of holes (not every engine blown is reported on these forums, driving/maintenance habits are different from person to person, etc), but at least its something.

[tutuga]

OK dealer finally got to it, it was #2. No pics but I saw the hole, will ask them to take pics later.

They want 9K to replace the whole engine so that's a no go for me. The manager loved the car and the mods so he offered to take it in as a trade and gave me a fair amount for the mods, sorry for the person who wanted the mani and who wanted the core. Since they are fixing it mazda wants the core.

I decided to go with a regular 3 for now and pay off some stuff before I get another car to beat on so I'll keep selling the stock stuff I have left.

Their theory is that the car ran lean at some point and that caused the rod to weaken and break over time.

[kgb]

Originally Posted by tutuga OK dealer finally got to it, it was #2. No pics but I saw the hole, will ask them to take pics later. They want 9K to replace the whole engine so that's a no go for me. The manager loved the car and the mods so he offered to take it in as a trade and gave me a fair amount for the mods, sorry for the person who wanted the mani and who wanted the core. Since they are fixing it mazda wants the core. I decided to go with a regular 3 for now and pay off some stuff before I get another car to beat on so I'll keep selling the stock stuff I have left. Their theory is that the car ran lean at some point and that caused the rod to weaken and break over time.

Wow...$9000 for an engine? I guess replacing is different than building an engine....?? Dealers say anything to get a sell.

Went lean...??? Geez...who hasn't at one point?

Time to implement the "band-aid" solutions for better A/F ratios at WOT and my smoking turbo...or throw in the towel....God I hate even thinking that.
I'm going to press-on...

[TRU-BOOST]

BSD ...FTW !! Not one person with that mod has blown yet.

[Crossbow]

Ya but I'm sure the BSD "hasn't blown yet" is just waiting to happen. I mean shit...even if doing the BSD helped reliability...its not going to make engines invulnerable!

[Deadman]

still fun to blame the bs... not a single person has blown with it deleted. sorry pablo about your luck :/

[mike8748]

Well I have taken all the precautions to help prevent the engine from popping.
Thats all you can really do, take preventive action and hope you have done everything possible to prevent it from happening.

Even though the BSD might not be the main cause I think it contributes to the problem. So I have deleted it from the equation.

I have a dashhawk and I am constantly monitoring any knock that may be happening and also monitoring the a/f at the same time.
Warning standards have been pre-programmed in to the dashhawk and I think every MS3/6 owner should have one of these. Its a great tool.

Do not boost above 19psi, I mean whats the point w/ the OEM turbo. Your just asking for trouble if you push it higher unless you have METH.

I have a METH kit and plan on putting it on as soon as I get my FMIC kit I ordered but I do not plan on boosting above 19psi.

There is a link with all the blown engines of Mazda3/6 speeds that also lists each MOD on this forum.

Your best bet when doing MODs to this car:
BSD, Upgraded FuelPump/Internals, METH

I know I am glad my BSD is finally done.
I will be ok if my engine blows because I can say to myself I did everything possible to my knowledge to prevent it from happening so I would not blame myself.

I purchased my BSD Oil Tray from ProtegeGarage, they have the best price around and I bought the BSD plug from PT-Performance.
I also did the Oil Filter Conversion at the same time, StreetUnit has the best price for that.
Good luck to you all.

[Frequentflyer]

Originally Posted by Meder Anyone have any more info on that? I know there seem to be a lot less 08.5/09's blowing, but they havent been around as long either. ive had a 08 and a 08.5 ms3, both cars really acted the same and got the same old bullshit knock and cuts.

I believe there has been at least one 08.5 blow up. I really don't think there is any difference between the <08's and the >08's besides Alcantara seating and little changes in the interior. For Mazda to actually change something in the motor, they'd have to acknowledge a weak link, which they will never do. This car is too much of a limited run to address an issue. Does anyone know if there are lots of blown CX-7's? I bet there are more of them on the road then MS3's.

[Smokehouse]

I'm no expert on the MS3 but I do see a clear pattern forming.

Every car that has blown has been beat on. Regardless of what type of mods, every car that blows has been ran hard. Now, I'm not talking about abuse, I'm talking about high revs, hard shifts and extracting every bit of juice this engine has.

I'm willing to bet that if I took the few mods I have off the car and handed over the keys to my wife, my MS3 with proper maintenance would last at least 75K miles save any failure of normal parts (turbo seals, etc).

Let's face it, we're all gear-heads...that's why we're here. We all take it to 5500rpm, all do hard WOT runs, all beat on the car a little(or with some, a lot). It just seems the stock internals of this engine simply can't take it.

So far I've found that the best rule of thumb is this: If you mod and/or beat on the stock MS3 engine, it will blow eventually and in a REALLY bad way.

That seem like a fair statement?

I for one don't want to fuck with this. I'm going to love on my MS3, drive it a little harder than I would my daily driver but there's no way in God's green earth I'm going to attempt fucking with this car any further. I don't have the $$ to do it the right way (forged internals) so I'm not going to ghetto-rig it (full bolt-ons). It seems that attempting to push a stock engine will blow up in your face sooner or later. I'l enjoy the car and in 3 years...trade it in on something I can beat on.

[bf360]

Originally Posted by Smokehouse I'm no expert on the MS3 but I do see a clear pattern forming. Every car that has blown has been beat on. Regardless of what type of mods, every car that blows has been ran hard. Now, I'm not talking about abuse, I'm talking about high revs, hard shifts and extracting every bit of juice this engine has. I'm willing to bet that if I took the few mods I have off the car and handed over the keys to my wife, my MS3 with proper maintenance would last at least 75K miles save any failure of normal parts (turbo seals, etc). Let's face it, we're all gear-heads...that's why we're here. We all take it to 5500rpm, all do hard WOT runs, all beat on the car a little(or with some, a lot). It just seems the stock internals of this engine simply can't take it. So far I've found that the best rule of thumb is this: If you mod and/or beat on the stock MS3 engine, it will blow eventually and in a REALLY bad way. That seem like a fair statement? I for one don't want to fuck with this. I'm going to love on my MS3, drive it a little harder than I would my daily driver but there's no way in God's green earth I'm going to attempt fucking with this car any further. I don't have the $$ to do it the right way (forged internals) so I'm not going to ghetto-rig it (full bolt-ons). It seems that attempting to push a stock engine will blow up in your face sooner or later. I'l enjoy the car and in 3 years...trade it in on something I can beat on.

nope not a fair statement, phil beat the living shit out of his car and did everything possible to blow it up
chris was at 346whp when all was said and done and was over 300whp for a long time
ron was at 386awhp and never blew
tizi is at 346whp fully bolted and meth tuned at 22psi and still alive

[Smokehouse]

Originally Posted by bf360 nope not a fair statement, phil beat the living shit out of his car and did everything possible to blow it up chris was at 346whp when all was said and done and was over 300whp for a long time ron was at 386awhp and never blew tizi is at 346whp fully bolted and meth tuned at 22psi and still alive

We'll see...all I just read was "tick, tock, tick, tock..." just a matter of time.

[badams118]

I just read

meth
meth
race fuel
meth

[RUMBLEFISH]

Ive said this before and Ill say it again. If this car blows up while im drinving I will not worry about de-modding it. I will pull over on the side of the road and throw a cig in the front seat and wait until the fire dept shows up. I get my money back along with a free rental from the insurance company and go shopping asap.

[BaseballD2]

lol gotta love insurance fraud

From a production span of 06-09 I don't think many cars have blown up considering how many were made.

You can't mod your car keep slapping on parts to make it faster without making it safer at the same time.

But anyways DISI 2.3 engine = epic fail with no capability of making serious power.

[glocK23]

Originally Posted by BaseballD2 But anyways DISI 2.3 engine = epic fail with no capability of making serious power.

It's a 4 cylinder making more power than some V8's out on the market, and it's epic fail?

Okay.

[Speed3FTW]

Not epic fail,

But there are many other platforms that can make a lot more power than us. We're pretty limited by our current DI system. Hopefully palerider and DCR figure this out with their PI/DI approach.

[X4 SRT]

You guys are all wrong when you say the motor and the fuel delivery is the problem. The problem is the ECU, and our ability to tune it properly. It will come in time, but you guys need to start going after what the real problem is, not all these bandaid fixes everyone is talking about like BSD's, meth, and forged internals. Get the car tuned properly, and it will make power and last longer than you guys think it will. Once we reach the limitations of what the stock pump, and injectors can do, then we start to handle that. It just sucks that there seems to be so much variation in how well the pumps flow. We will figure it out though, but we need to remember to find out what the real problem is and fix that.

[mdogg]

Originally Posted by X4 SRT You guys are all wrong when you say the motor and the fuel delivery is the problem. The problem is the ECU, and our ability to tune it properly. It will come in time, but you guys need to start going after what the real problem is, not all these bandaid fixes everyone is talking about like BSD's, meth, and forged internals. Get the car tuned properly, and it will make power and last longer than you guys think it will. Once we reach the limitations of what the stock pump, and injectors can do, then we start to handle that. It just sucks that there seems to be so much variation in how well the pumps flow. We will figure it out though, but we need to remember to find out what the real problem is and fix that.

Sorry, but "properly tuned" cars have blown.

[serium]

Ah man sorry for your loss, I know the feeling though popped my engine 2 years ago in my regular 3 only had 4,068 miles on it...(warranty voided due to intake) should have that replacement engine paid off this month.....finally!!!!!

[Lex]

Originally Posted by serium Ah man sorry for your loss, I know the feeling though popped my engine 2 years ago in my regular 3 only had 4,068 miles on it...(warranty voided due to intake) should have that replacement engine paid off this month.....finally!!!!!

Posts like this should indicate even more that a manufacturing problem or flaw can result in a popped engine. It happens to a lot of cars - more so in cars that are driven "hard" or that make as much power as the MS3 from 4 cylinders.

[Crossbow]

I believe there has been at least one 08.5 blow up. I really don't think there is any difference between the <08's and the >08's besides Alcantara seating and little changes in the interior. For Mazda to actually change something in the motor, they'd have to acknowledge a weak link, which they will never do. This car is too much of a limited run to address an issue. Does anyone know if there are lots of blown CX-7's? I bet there are more of them on the road then MS3's.

Mazda added a set of spacers/washers on the cam's and crank, as well as revising some part numbers on some of the bearings.

Mazda ALWAYS makes changes each model year...just nobody is keeping track, because we don't have any QMD Service managers on the forum to pull and compare all the changes.

Just because nothing changes externally, doesn't mean a few dozen part #'s changed.

The DISI engine will continue to get more reliable as time goes on. (through these micro-hidden changes)

If you don't think an 08.5 is going to be more reliable then an 07, then you're kidding yourself. And case in point, an 08.5<09<10.

[DaleNixon]

Aren't 09's just leftover 08.5's?

[mouse0330]

Originally Posted by serium Ah man sorry for your loss, I know the feeling though popped my engine 2 years ago in my regular 3 only had 4,068 miles on it...(warranty voided due to intake) should have that replacement engine paid off this month.....finally!!!!!

Do you know any other regular mazda3 that pop just like yours? If there is, then gentleman we have a case.

by the way Serium, was yours the 2.3DI engine?

[Lex]

Here's some good info about the Duratec that might be interesting to people from here. Not a DISI but the ideas apply.

Ford Duratec 20/23 Modifiyesi - Modifiyem©

Article produced by Fast Ford, Words by Jon Hill. As you probably know, there's a brand-new four cylinder Ford engine in town. Currently powering the Mondeo and soon the all-new Focus, the Duratec is the engine of the moment as far as Ford's top bods are concerned. But just how good is it? How does it compare to the Zetec it's replacing, and will it be a match for the mighty Cosworth YB? Even more importantly, how much power can you squeeze out of it on a shoestring? To really nail these questions (and plenty more besides), we've visited SB Developments- the company which is currently investigating the release from Ford's latest. This new engine is referred to as a Duratec, which stands to reason really - that's the name on the rocker cover. That said, its other official title is an I4. Now, theres the first bit of confusion we're faced with, because of course Ford already has an I4 - the twin-cam jobbie that used to power the last of the Sierras, remember? As we know, this went on to spin the tyres on the RS2000 MkV Escort in 16-valve form. This I4 has nothing to do with the old one, which is why it's called Duratec and will be from now on. The only real thing it has in common is its chain-driven cams. In fact, it isn't really a Ford engine at all; it's a Mazda. Which, of course, Ford owns - quite handy really. The point of the motor is that it's going to be produced in simply vast numbers. Yep, they said that about the Zetec - that was supposed to be the first Ford 'world' engine - but this one really is. And the word production is the key to the whole thing, although it owes a lot to race track tricks too. The only downside is that it isn't of the Ford family, and therefore won't fit where a traditional Ford engine will. Look at it and you'll see it breaks with years of Ford family bellhousing tradition in that the pattern is completely different. As a result, no rear-wheel-drive box will bolt staight on like virtually all past Ford engines; you now need a purpose-made one to do the job instead. The engine mounts are like nothing we've seen before and the whole thing is, well, efficeient. Very. Still, you can get over 200 bhp from it without touching the engine internals, which sound a bit more like it. But how? The Engine So, what have we got then? First off, all-alloy engine - alloy block and head, four cylinders, twin cams and 16-valves. All fairly normal, modern, great stuff. But the motor is designed entirely with production in mind, to the extent that it'll pass emissions without even trying - it's that good. Everything has been designed to be a light and svelte as possible, which can't be anything but effieient. Consequently, many of the components within the engine bear a striking resemblance to race parts. Take the pistons, for example. If you didn't know they were cast, yu'd think they were the very latest slipper pistons with Teflon inserts. Yet, although they will produce more horsepower that the standard Mondeo-rated 145 bhp, they simply aren't up to the standard of monster power. True, they are being used fairly conservatively and will take a touch more- but literally only a touch. And ther lies the key to this engine. Everything is designed to produce the power of a smooth, reliable, moderately high performing rep-mobile/family car that's totally cost-effective and nothing else. Arece car weiting to happen - like the Cosworth - it ain't. But don't despair - you can get a fair old whack out of it. As Clint Eastwood famously growled: "A man has to know his limitations" - and this applies in engine terms too. For the right application, the Duratec's a cracker. We'll show you why. The Components The key to producing horsepower is excellent breathing, with big valves, huge part and good induction all contributing to the process of getting lots of air/fuel mix and gas in and out respectively. The downside of an engine like the Zetec was that it was designed to be as compact as possible, especially in bore size. Consequently, everything was crammed in; the valves were too small with no real scope for a size increase, and the ports weren't much better either. In the name of great emissions, the Duratec has whopping valves - 35mm inlets and 29.90mm exhaust, plus huge, well-designed ports. Both of these contribute to producing horsepower. The valves have nice , thin stems- meaning the guide bosses don't have to be massive and therefore obstruct flow thought the ports. The valves are also stainless although they're of two-piece construction and have lovely thin valve seats, again, optimising gas flow. Physically there really isn't anything you need to do to the head desing to improve it. Cams Surprisingly, the method of opening and closing the valves isn't hydaulic but mechanical. Being of overhead cam design, of course, means that the cam is directly acting on the followers - alsoknown as buckets, as upturned they assume that configuration and carry the springs. Modern cam thinking is different to that of old, where loads of duration was used along with low lift, producing lots of overlap. This is a real baddie as far as emissions go becasue fuel is literally dumped down the exhasut valves, resulting in horrendous backfires and sky-high lambda readings. Consequently, camsare dialled in the direct opposite way, with large lift and small degrees of duration. The Duratec's dimensions therefore are inlet 257 degrees, with 9.87 mm of lift, and exhaust is 252 degrees and 8.45 mm of lift. Not huge in terms of lift, but they don't need to be - the valves and ports are whopping, so why do they really need to open by huge amounts if they can get the gases in without doing so? True to the emissions-friendly ethos, just enough is about right and consequently there is room for improvement. Cranks & Rods Again, the crank is cast to be svelte; to do its job and no more. The bearings are of a tin aluminium construction and though capable of plenty of miles in a cruiser, high revs and bhp will see 'em fail. Like the pistons, the connectiong rods are also pretty feeble and, compared to more traditional rods, look like on good burst would knacker them. like everything else, they designed for low-mass reciprocation, basically meaning that it's all about the efficiency. Interestingly, like many modern engines, they're also of boken big end cap design. This means that the rod is cast as a one-piece unit, machined to tolerance then broken in a totally controlled way across the bid end journal hole to form the big end cap. The cap can therefore only fit one rod and one rod only. Block Like a Vauxhall XE engine - which SB Developments is most famous for developing - the bore/stroke ratio is pretty much square on the Duratec. You have an 87.6mm bore which is actually slightly bigger than an XE and a 83mm stroke. America, as usual, is blessed with something of larger girth - 2.3 litre version of the Duratec. This has a slightly larger bore size but in comparison a far greater stroke . It stands to reason that these engines will produce more power, but it comes at a price. The Duratec version is harsher and less able to rev - ideal for turbo applications, you would think. All Duratec blocks have some great design features built in, although it could be argued that they don't look too hot. Most guilty culprit are the exterior oil-carrying gullies cast into the block, but obviously there's a reason for this. See it's no secret that oil dropping onto the crank, whilst returning to the sump, produces drag. This, in an engine where efficiency is everything, robs bhp. So by directing the oil down the outside of the block in purpose-built channels, the oil returns to the sump completely independent of the crank, therefore having no effect on it in terms of hindrance. There's more too. The crank is mounted high up in the block away from the sump, and is braced by a cast girdle housing all the main bearing carriers. Thus, several components are incorporated in one, cutting costs. The downside may well be the need for precision machining and assembly - but we'll discuss this later because it's significant. Assembly Like some huge game on your PC, the Duratec is meant for machine assembly aided by computer. Therefore, all the components are made to the most exacting tolerances imaginable. There are no keyways locating the crank to front pully/crank trigger, and nor are there any to locate the cam and cam wheels. Instead the whole lot relies on friction joints - a good method as far as fast production goes. As a result, every single cam has to be made so it's exactly the same as the next, which you might think would be a nightmare in terms of assembly. The truth is that the valves are all made spot-on too, as are the valve seats. Any variation is taken up in the bucket followers, which also double as spacing shims. Assembly probably works like this - a CNC machine assembles the valves in the head, then by laser measures the valve height then calculates and drops in the relevant bucket/shim followed by the cam. And it's all done quicker than you could eat a ham sandwich - although by then the machine's assembled umpteen other heads as well. In short, the whole engine is meant as an assemble once-only unit, which kind of highlights the modern dealership/garage thinking. Long gone are the days of greasy overalls and blokes smoking rollies with soft porn calendars up on the wall. Big ends and small ends aren't meant to be touched anymore, and instead you have posh, high-tech showrooms with matching high-tech cappuccino machines and technicians that can change your oil or swap complete units only. Man-hours in your dealership are incredibly dear things these days, so anything that can unitise the system is used to full effect. The Duratec drops straight into this with a role of fit and forget. And if it breaks, slot in a new one - true throwaway mentality. The unit has a similar role in motorsport too if you're smart, but we'll examine this in greater detail shortly. In conclusion to this section then, the Duratec is built to be an efficient unit produced in vast numbers. We will be seeing it appear in not just Ford poducts but related makes and plenty of others too, effectively meaning cheap engines. Tuning You'd expect there to be plenty of scope for tuning the Duratec. Well, good news - there is. Up to a point anyway. Put simply, you don't have to do much to wring out the power, as SB Developments has done back-to-back tests all on the same day, after extensive preparation. By junking the standard induction system, which is intended for serious emissions control only, and replacing it with traditional induction methods, you can achieve truly staggering results. With a pair of 45 DCOE side draught carbs and managed ignition they got 170 bhp - that's 25 bhp over standard. By taking them off and fitting parallel throttle bodies the figure then went to 195 bhp. Then, after replacing them with SBD's own tapered throttle bodies, the power increased to 208 bhp. This, of course, is all on a completely standard engine with no other mods. The Duratec engine we have run has been testing in two forms, parallel throttle bodies which produced an output of approximately 195 bhp and then running the engine on tapered throttle bodies produced 203 bhp (this was used in the American SAE corrections). The implications of this are obvious. The engine is effectively a plug and play unit. If you want to compete in motorsport and are looking for an efficient unit then the Duratec could well be an option. With secondhand low-mileage units retailing at around £700, all you need after that is £1781.90 (plus VAT) of induction. It's kit that's unlikely to break or wear out in a hurry either. If you're unfortunate enough to blow the engine then all you need do is unbolt it and replace it with another. Compare that to tuning a traditional Ford engine such as a Pinto. To get in excess of 200 bhp you'd need eight grand-plus. And, if all you wanted was a good high powered plant, you could do the dirty and switch to H**nda power - then all you'd need is 'only' around five grand for a basic V-Tech unit. Put in these terms, the Duratec seems like a cheap motorsport unit. More Power You can obviously go beyond these figures, because until now we've not even taken the cam cover off. Do this and fit higher lift cams, which there's just enough room to squeeze in. That said, pocketing the pistons and much better valve springs is necessary, and this will provide up to 25 bhp more. The standard valve springs are light in both weight and strength , as well as being progessive. This makes for a very svelte, efficient drivetrain but can result in coil bind because of their length. The problem is that space is incredibly tight to get a bigger spring and follower in their place. However , new ones are available from Kent Cams/SBD. SBD's own cam design is slightly different to comparable aftermarket makes in that duration of the intake valve is deliberately less. Their theory is, you keep the combustion ratio up slightly higher and produce more torque if you compress the gas you've got more, rather than try and cram a greater amount in. If you examine cams like for like, SBD's may not produce any more horsepower, but it will give more torque. And that, as we know, is where the oomph comes from. Another area that can do with a bit of attention is the flywheel, whicin standard form is a whopper, weighing in at around 12kg. Again this is for emissions-friendly purposed. SBD's own purpose-made unit weighs in at around half this, contributing to a freer-revving engine. The Limit There's still more you can do. But, as you'll have gathered by now, the Duratec is primarily intended as a production unit. It certainly isn't a Cos YB, which is really a race unit in seriously detuned form for production. In this case you have a cast-iron block, made virtuallly bullet proof in the 200 motorsport version - something you'd never get with any alloy type. On top of this, everything's made with race in mind from the steel crank and semi-steel rods to the head, whic can be hogged out as much as you like to produce the power. In truth, the Duratec is great up to a point and the limit is around 245 bhp, although we would suggest that the 2.0 litre shound be rated 230-235 on standard rods and pistons. Yes, you can tune it further but this breakpoint is significant because if you go beyond it the unit's cost-effectiveness goes out of the window.Those spindly rods, cast pistons and acceptable bearing won't take any more power than this safely. Consequently, the amount of components that will need replacing beyond this pont is huge. You take the choice - parts are available but the unit becomes as costly as any other race engine if you want to produce power beyond this pont. And that applies to turbocharging too - and no, we're not talking RS Fucus either. It might say Duratec on the rocker cover but in truth this motor is the final derivative of the Zetec. It isn't an I4 Duratec. So retrofitting a blower and you would get gains from a very mild amount of boost on an otherwise standard engine. Go beyond that 245 bhp figure, however, and you're virtually guartaneed to get huge failures. So in conclusion, your best bet is the plug and play route, along with induction changes. That isn't forgetting that you can upgrade the existing ECU in, say your Mondeo - but don't expect wild bhp gains beyond the few you'll get with a standard chip, filter and exhaust. The ECU in this case is a central computer which is as much likely to control how long the interior light's left on as the injector timing. The motorsport route on the other hand, as we've discussed, is to bin the lot and start again with a purpose-built unit controlling throttle bodies/carbs. This route is currently the favourite in terms of Caterham/kit car applications but as far as uprating your Mondeo - or new Focus - goes, controlling the rest of the car remains open for now.

[Lex]

The principles apply the same way. Given that the stock duratec can take 230hp when it has 140 stock means the engineers designed about 60% headroom. I don't expect it to be more in the DISI engine.

This means that the limit of the stock engine given that it has not manufacturing flaws will be around the 430 crank hp mark. I wouldn't ride that limit personally.

EDIT:

What most people don't understand is that in today's economy parts are built with production and costs in mind. Gone are the days of 2500 production runs of homologation Rally cars.

So there is a ~50% overhead built into the motors. You realize you are getting there when you start maxing out stock sensors like the MAF and MAP and fuel system. Going beyond that you will quickly realize that there are lots more gaps to fill and you will need to build the motor.

So failures we've seen fall into several categories:
1. Manufacturing flaws
2. Misuse
3. Going beyond system limitations

You have to understand these limitations of most modern production cars. Once you get close to 350whp on the stock bottom end you're on borrowed time plain and simple. Want more? Get a bigger motor car or build it and do port injection. But you will sacrifice driveability and reliability. Building a WOT car is easy, building a WOT car that can also be driven to dinner is not and will cost significantly more TIME and MONEY - might as well buy something else at that point.

That's why in my opinion maintain the car properly, add some zest to it, tune it well, keep it cool with meth or otherwise, and don't push it towards 400whp or accept that it will break.

[Meder]

Originally Posted by Smokehouse I'm no expert on the MS3 but I do see a clear pattern forming. Every car that has blown has been beat on. Regardless of what type of mods, every car that blows has been ran hard. Now, I'm not talking about abuse, I'm talking about high revs, hard shifts and extracting every bit of juice this engine has. I'm willing to bet that if I took the few mods I have off the car and handed over the keys to my wife, my MS3 with proper maintenance would last at least 75K miles save any failure of normal parts (turbo seals, etc). Let's face it, we're all gear-heads...that's why we're here. We all take it to 5500rpm, all do hard WOT runs, all beat on the car a little(or with some, a lot). It just seems the stock internals of this engine simply can't take it. So far I've found that the best rule of thumb is this: If you mod and/or beat on the stock MS3 engine, it will blow eventually and in a REALLY bad way. That seem like a fair statement? I for one don't want to fuck with this. I'm going to love on my MS3, drive it a little harder than I would my daily driver but there's no way in God's green earth I'm going to attempt fucking with this car any further. I don't have the $$ to do it the right way (forged internals) so I'm not going to ghetto-rig it (full bolt-ons). It seems that attempting to push a stock engine will blow up in your face sooner or later. I'l enjoy the car and in 3 years...trade it in on something I can beat on.

It seems to me driving this car hard really is not the problem. 330-350 may very well be pushing the limits as many have found out. Full bolt ons may not get you to 330, but it is indeed starting to stress the motor imo if 350 is the limit. It seems like if you can keep the car running cool full bolts ons *may* be fine. Many have driven this car hard, I personally know guys that are fully bolted that drive the piss out of their car in 90 degree heat with no form of monitoring and they are going strong. We have had too many guys that like to go out and run their cars several times a week pushing over 300whp.

It just seems like actual hard driving isnt killing this car. Now, this is all within reason. How many of us do NOT shift at 6k, run the car through its gear and have the race or 2 every week from 30-130 ish? This is normal for many many people here. I dont think most of us can actually not run the car when its time to run it.


There is a difference between running the car hard, and down right beating on it imo. Its *ok* to run the car through its loops and shift a high rpms a few times a week and is normal for most of us. It is not ok to ride through knock, do pulls in high temps/bats/ects or go launch the car from half the red lights you see when some civic reved on you and you had to show him whos boss. I can see a lot of our ms3 guys driving down the street just like the Si kids with something to prove with their stickers, green wheels and new cool front bumper.


Too many here have shown its more than hard driving that is killing this car, and I think mods do play a role as lightly modded cars are not blowing up as often as bolted cars. We all know that stock cars to BT cars have blown, but most lightly modded cars seemed to possibly have some defect flaw as they have blown with extremely low mileage.

[mouse0330]

the point here is that lightly modded cars have blown, I think most of them not even near 300hp.

[Frequentflyer]

Originally Posted by mouse0330 the point here is that lightly modded cars have blown, I think most of them not even near 300hp.

Stock motors have blown also.

[Meder]

Although we have our fair share of blown motors with all types of mods it seems as if mostly the bolted guys are blowning now adays.

The blown engine resource thread really is not up to date and you really do not see too many people complaining about blown engines with light bolt ons. I think that whatever it is mods may indeed bring it out of hiding. I do not think these cars are blowing because of modifications though. I do think the big turbo guys may just be stressing the engine to much, but anyone with bolts ons minus the turbo upgrade seems to be hit or miss.


I dont feel like the lightly bolted guys need to go around shitting their pants because of all the msf threads on blown motors. It can happpen of course, we all know that.

[TRU-BOOST]

I have to believe it a quality issue and has little to nothing to do with your driving habits. I am fully bolted, and i am that asshole that beats the death out of the car on a daily basis..... No not spirited driving, abuse.... flat out abuse. So far 30k, good as new.
I run high boost in heat, cold, through knock levels over 6.0 at times. If it was an abuse issue mine would have been DOA a long time ago.

[X4 SRT]

Originally Posted by mdogg Sorry, but "properly tuned" cars have blown.

Yeah? How do you know they were properly tuned? How do you what AFR's were, what knock was, what the timing was like? Does everyone send you logs of their cars for every driving situation? Are you the tuning guru?

I think the latest information of a ms3 hitting 400whp backs up my statements much better than anyone of the "theories" in this thread. Like they said, it wasn't any real secret that got them there it was hard work with lots of logging, tuning, and hitting the dyno. Over 200 dyno pulls to learn what they did. I've said it before and i'll say it again; it's all in the tuning.

[mdogg]

Originally Posted by X4 SRT Yeah? How do you know they were properly tuned? How do you what AFR's were, what knock was, what the timing was like? Does everyone send you logs of their cars for every driving situation? Are you the tuning guru? I think the latest information of a ms3 hitting 400whp backs up my statements much better than anyone of the "theories" in this thread. Like they said, it wasn't any real secret that got them there it was hard work with lots of logging, tuning, and hitting the dyno. Over 200 dyno pulls to learn what they did. I've said it before and i'll say it again; it's all in the tuning.

Sorry, didn't mean to step on your toes since you are the "actual" tuning guru....

So where are all of YOUR logs showing poor tuning for the blown motor guys at the time of the incident? I haven't seen many of those logs like you have, but maybe you can enlighten the community with your vast wealth of knowledge.

Thanks!

[Buildabong]

FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT!!