Boom this shit sucks

[gsrtype1]

Originally Posted by Eazy No, every AP has a tune on it.... the device isn't what's causing problems, it's the tune and the user.

i'm sorry bro what you said makes absolutey no sense to me...?

[speed_3]

Turn on point was 12 psi full spray 17. Outside temps were 28 and the map was the final v103 map Stage 2 + sf intake 93.

[gsrtype1]

Eazy are you sayen like if some one put a crazy stupid tune on a satndback then put it on there car and the car blew it wouldnt be the standbacks fault but the idiot that put the tune on ther? I will concour with that if thats what your saying.

[Lex]

Originally Posted by speed_3 If the seals were no good what what the compression test turn out? Vs The valve dropping.

Think about the oil in the cylinder - there are only a few places it can come from. It can come from the bottom if the piston was damaged, it can come from the headgasket if it's blown, or it can come from the head if something happened to the valves. A cracked head would also do it.

If timing skipped/slipped, you could have hit and damaged a valve.

Is this motor of interference type?

[Strizzo]

seems like ppl that have been blowing recently have been using meth to stave off knock so they could make big power, and are now bending rods with the extra power. although i wouldn't say its a tuned car/untuned car thing, because buildabong was completely untuned and bent a rod.

[Haltech]

Well here is the deal.. its 28 degree outside.. the car is going to add timing to the existing tune, whether you like it or not. How much timing it added is unknown.

i think you guys living in the cold out there need to clamp your IAT at 60F or something... This will at least keep timing from creeping on you.

[gsrtype1]

the k03 nozzle that sprays less don't know if that makes a difference. still to be seeing 6counts of knock is crtazy with any meth spraying.

[Eazy]

Originally Posted by gsrtype1 Eazy are you sayen like if some one put a crazy stupid tune on a satndback then put it on there car and the car blew it wouldnt be the standbacks fault but the idiot that put the tune on ther? I will concour with that if thats what your saying.

Bingo! Now we're on the same page.

[kingpin748]

Originally Posted by johnnyspeed6 Correct me here if Im wrong ..... of all the threads I have read about blown motors .... has ANY OF THEM not had any ECU tuning .... it seems to me there is a pattern here of motors blowing with the tunes on them .. just curious are there any blows without the tunes?

There have been cars that have blown without an ECU solution.

[red07]

Peeps,

Keep in mind that on this board, I would bet there are very few fully stock cars. We're also looking at a board full of car guys and car girls, who drive harder than the average person. The data is liable to be skewed heavily towards modded cars breaking more than stock.

A better way would be to somehow figure out total vehicle sales in the U.S., then find total # of blown cars, and further subdivide into stock vs modded. The first # should be easy, the second requires MazdaUSA giving us the #'s, then good recording from EVERYONE who blew. We may never know the actual #'s or %'s.

[kingpin748]

There are girls on this board? I'm mean besides gsrtype1?

[booya620]

This shit sucks, sorry speed_3. I wish we could come up with an answer to these issues. It seems like his car wasn't that heavily modded. Probably close to the average mods for this forum. he had the "recommended" safety features (meth, internals, tune, and 2-step lower plugs) It makes me glad all i have is an intake for winter.

[Deadman]

Balance Shaft?!?!

[wisniaPl]

Originally Posted by speed_3 Turn on point was 12 psi full spray 17. Outside temps were 28 and the map was the final v103 map Stage 2 + sf intake 93.

btw why you didn't start spraying at 5psi if you have progressive kit??I think that was knock before meth was sprayed that caused shit to happen.... .....however mostly people with ap are blowing thats why we see coments lie that....

[superskaterxes]

clearly something else is at fault here if he saw a KR of 6. thats pretty freaken high. i think we needa see whats within to determine a cause. pull that pan and take picts

[bioevolve]

Did he really need to spray meth in that low of temperture?

[gsrtype1]

Originally Posted by johnnyspeed6 Correct me here if Im wrong ..... of all the threads I have read about blown motors .... has ANY OF THEM not had any ECU tuning .... it seems to me there is a pattern here of motors blowing with the tunes on them .. just curious are there any blows without the tunes?

Really a "tune" makes your car much safer if its a smart tune, if you modd your car out you may have lean spots etc that you cna't change like you can with a standback for example. With the standback if your too lean in an area or have knock retard you just add fuel or timeing etc. This is the advatage of a piggyback. You can make it perfect and safe..

[Bravnik]

As I understand it, the OP log is the log that was taken when the issue happened.

Looking at that log we see a few things;

First of all his AFR's were perfect at 12 to 12.2Max, nothing wrong with that.

His fuel pressure never dropped low at all.

Basically the Log looks good, afr's good, fuel good. The only think that looked strange is the KR. However, 6 Deg of KR is a very normal thing on these cars STOCK at WOT. I use to get 7Degs of KR on my car before any mods. There are TONs of posts of people with 6Degs of KR or more on stock and modded cars at WOT.

Now do you want KR? No, not at all. I'm just saying that 6 deg of KR at that RPM is more normal than abnormal and is a proven fact based off of the tons of posts about KR. We don't want it for sure, just saying it's more norm then not.

I can't quite see the Boost Line is hard to see. But if it is above 12PSI, then obviously the Meth didn't kick in as if it did there should be no KR then. Unless of course there was a Rod/Valve going and it picked up the noise as KR.

My question is this. Seeing how smart our ECU is. If you run meth you're running higher octane as that is what meth really does. Would our ECU adapt to the higher octane on it's own over time and adjust the timing to take advantage of it? Or does it stop at 93OCT.

The reason I ask is what if your car does, then for some reason the Meth does not kick in as expected? What would happen?

Note: This could be and probably is a stupid question and sorry if it is. Just trying to learn as I know nothing about meth or how smart our ECU is and hope others can provide some clarity here.

[itzl0l]

i see what your saying....i dont know if the ecu "rides the knock sensor" either....creating higher and higher timing tables if it see's no knock. If it does and it thinks it can run much higher timing but for some reason the meth doesnt spray.....could cause boom.

if the ecu operates that way

[Bravnik]

Also I noted you said that you drove to school, then after school you went to your favorite spot by the school to do the run. By reading that I'm assuming that the spot you went to was close to school.

28 Degs. Was the car warmed up? I know that my Oil Pressure is pushing 100 PSI when I'm cold. It does not drop down to 50-60PSI until the car is good and warm (40 PSI with the clutch in). I also notice that KR is highest and goes off all the time under no boost when the car is cold.

[Bravnik]

Originally Posted by itzl0l i see what your saying....i dont know if the ecu "rides the knock sensor" either....creating higher and higher timing tables if it see's no knock. If it does and it thinks it can run much higher timing but for some reason the meth doesnt spray.....could cause boom. if the ecu operates that way

I think its a valid question. I always thought that the ECU adjusts timing until it see's KR then brings it back a bit. But I could be very wrong as well in my thinking.

[phantom6294]

Originally Posted by Bravnik However, 6 Deg of KR is a very normal thing on these cars STOCK at WOT. I use to get 7Degs of KR on my car before any mods. There are TONs of posts of people with 6Degs of KR or more on stock and modded cars at WOT. Now do you want KR? No, not at all. I'm just saying that 6 deg of KR at that RPM is more normal than abnormal and is a proven fact based off of the tons of posts about KR. We don't want it for sure, just saying it's more norm then not.

Huh? I've seen tons of posts about 6° KR at cruise, but not WOT. I'm not saying there aren't people reporting KR at WOT but I certainly haven't seen "TONs of posts" of 6° of KR at WOT on stock cars. I have personally NEVER seen a KR reading of 6° of KR at WOT on my stock car.

Originally Posted by Bravnik First of all his AFR's were perfect at 12 to 12.2Max, nothing wrong with that.

Actually, he seems to hit 12.8 just after his boost spike which seems to be about 20 PSI, though it is hard to read the scale.

Originally Posted by Bravnik If you run meth you're running higher octane as that is what meth really does. Would our ECU adapt to the higher octane on it's own over time and adjust the timing to take advantage of it? Or does it stop at 93OCT

I don't believe the ECU can detect higher octane ratings, whether actual or effective. The MS3 is tuned for 91 Octane. I don't believe the ECU will advance timing beyond its programmed maps -- it will only retard the timing based on KR. You could put 115 Octane gas in, and your power output should be unchanged (unless you were suffering from a lot of knock and the engine was pulling serious timing.)

[Bravnik]

Here is a log that I did a long time ago. The KR is only 2.0 in this one at WOT. This was stock or close to stock.



Here is another one. Again stock or close to stock. Maybe running an MBC, I don't remember to be honest. This was a log I took when I had Fuel Pump Issues and got the TSB done. I used this as proof that my FP was sucking balls



Those are the only 2 that I have saved from way back. As you can see, KR was and is normal. There are a LOT of posts on this at WOT. Most on this board even.

Also you need to watch his Boost and not his AFR's. He didn't hit 12.8, that was after he dropped boost which was when he pushed in the clutch most likely after he felt/heard the issue. His AFR's were fine, so was his fuel.

[Lex]

The knock he was reading was not a CAUSE of the problem, it was a RESULT of the failure.

[bombdotcom]

this scares me i have the same mods as speed, minus the meth. i was about to pull the trigger on an AP here ina few days. i have the BSD kit so itd be interesting to see if thats has anything to do with it, if i got the AP....

[twisted99]

Sounds like a bent rod, but based on the log I would say it was caused by load on the engine. Looks like the run was started well under 3000rpms. You just can't do that in a turbo car with out asking for trouble.

[Frequentflyer]

Originally Posted by Deadman Balance Shaft?!?!

It's just about always cyl #3.

[bova]

yes the knock did not cause it, if you look the knock doesn't appear until after the boost drops off and all the crazy crap happens.

[phantom6294]

Originally Posted by bova80 yes the knock did not cause it, if you look the knock doesn't appear until after the boost drops off and all the crazy crap happens.

Um.... the KR goes to 6° right before his boost hits its highest mark -- which I think is 20 PSI but can't tell for sure. Yes, KR continues beyond the boost peak, but it starts before the peak of boost.

[bova]

oh i couldn't tell the graph was all scrunched and enlarging it still didn't help

[badams118]

I wonder if running a catless dp could have been causing over boost with the v103 map (designed for a catted dp).

[dread]

Originally Posted by wisniaPl btw why you didn't start spraying at 5psi if you have progressive kit??I think that was knock before meth was sprayed that caused shit to happen.... .....however mostly people with ap are blowing thats why we see coments lie that....

? this is the first car with an ap that I have seen blow.

[Eazy]

Originally Posted by dread ? this is the first car with an ap that I have seen blow.

IDRVSLO is another

[dread]

what were his mods?

[badams118]

IDRVSLO
Car; MazdaSpeed 3
Cylinder; 3
Damage; Blown engine. Hole in block #3 cylinder.
RPM; about 3000rpms
Mods; Cobb AP, COBB SRI, IDRVSLO custom Water to Air IC, PG V2 Manifold, HDFP, H&R springs, 17x8.5 RPF1s ET40 w/235/45/17s, Prosport boost gauge, TWM Bushings and Short Shifter, Turbosmart Hybrid Valve, Corksport DP and RP, DENSO ITV22 plugs, custom catback full 3" mandrel bent w/ Apexi N1 muffler and N2MB WOT Box w/ 2 step
Exhaust Manifold;

http://www.mazdaspeedforums.org/foru...ce-thread.html

[dread]

well with that mod list you can hardly blame the ap.

[Frequentflyer]

We've established that the #3 cylinder runs hotter than the rest. Is there any way that we can give #3 more fuel via the AP or Standback? I know when I had a Hondata ECU for my RSX, I could adjust fuel trims in percentage by cylinder.

[phantom6294]

Originally Posted by Frequentflyer We've established that the #3 cylinder runs hotter than the rest.

I find that extremely intriguing. Not that I am doubting, I am just curious if this conclusion was based on the #3 cylinder being the common one to blow, or some other basis?

[Deadman]

i am blaming the balance shaft. =|

[retrobmx63]

Originally Posted by kingpin748 There are girls on this board? I'm mean besides gsrtype1?

"LAMFO"