Cam friction washer has oil on it?

[Matrix311]

As you may or may not know I went ZZB 2 months ago and on Friday I finally got my engine back from the machine shop so I have been assembling it over the weekend. We were following some of the key points in the "how to build a forged engine" thread here on MSF and when putting the timing chain on it says to break the exhaust cam bolt loose to allow movement to get the timing chain on and in place and to also replace the friction washer. So we broke the bolt loose, replaced the friction washer and when we put the bolt back into the cam some oil had seeped out of the cam between the bolt flange and cam getting on the friction washer. We then torqued it down best we could judging the 51lb-ft spec. Since the timing chain cover was on there was no way to get a torque wrench in there so we had to use a few open ended wrenches and judge the torque.

Again when we torqued the cam bolt down there was oil on the friction washer. Is this a problem? The cam bolt lives in an oil environment but when torqued down oil will not get between the bolt and cam. I was wondering what your knowledge is regarding the friction washer and if oil getting on the friction washer is a problem or am i worrying to much about this and it shouldnt be a problem?

My engine is in my car but there is no fluid in it and i still have a good handful of things to assemble to it before i finish the install. If I need to pull the valve cover and try to clean the cam friction washer now would be the time. Please let me know your thoughts on this!

@Lex @atvfreek @Alpha @SPEED6 KILLAH

[silvapain]

You want that washer and mating surfaces CLEAN and DRY.

[Matrix311]

Originally Posted by silvapain You want that washer and mating surfaces CLEAN and DRY.

Any particular reason why it needs to be clean and dry? What are the drawbacks of it with a little oil on it? I've talked to a few people including atvfreek and they all said it shouldnt be a problem or make a difference. We torqued it down pretty good and the engine turns in the direction we tightened it so its not working against itself. I'm still a little on edge about it but cannot find any concrete information online about what could/would happen with oil getting on a friction washer.

[silvapain]

Oil isn't compressible, and the washer holds based on friction. Anything on the surfaces will reduce that friction.

[Lex]

Correct. Any substance that reduces the static friction coefficient will make it more prone to slipping. Whether it will actually slip or not in your application is a different question. Better safe than sorry.

[atvfreek]

I always wipe everything clean before assembly, but I'm sure if there was a tiny bit of residue that it shouldn't affect anything

[El_Diablo]

Originally Posted by Matrix311 Any particular reason why it needs to be clean and dry? What are the drawbacks of it with a little oil on it? I've talked to a few people including atvfreek and they all said it shouldnt be a problem or make a difference. We torqued it down pretty good and the engine turns in the direction we tightened it so its not working against itself. I'm still a little on edge about it but cannot find any concrete information online about what could/would happen with oil getting on a friction washer.

Ask @Realgib3; why or look in his build thread. Mark has a crap ton of fail posted in there. lol

[Matrix311]

I'm just going to run with it like this. ATVFREEK, Pablo and a few trusted local mazda mechanics i talked to said it will be ok.

[Realgib3]

As nice as it would have been for the surfaces to be perfectly clean, you may be fine since the cams aren't what slips on these motors, at least I've yet to see one that did. There is just a LOT more stress put on the crank sprockets, which I've seen slip many times, due to improper cleaning or torquing issues.

With that said, THE MINUTE you see/feel something wrong in a log, check your mechanical timing.

[Matrix311]

Crank was perfectly clean with 3 brand new washers. We torqued to 76lbft then did 90* turn. We then checked to see where that might be for total torque and it was still clicking at 160lb ft so we know it's beyond that. The crank should not slip. Will certainly keep an eye and feel on the upper washer during initial startup and driving. The exhaust cam called for like 51-56lbft and we did it by feel and it should be well beyond that since we couldn't get a torque wrench on it with the timing cover on.

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[SPEED6 KILLAH]

Matrix clean the Surface area off really good before Installing the washer also note at the end of the day the washer still get oil on it just saying guys..

[JMEngineer]

DISCLAIMER: This is just a thought I'm throwing out there for discussion - don't do stupid shit!

Could it be beneficial to use some high-temp threadlocker/retaining compound on the friction washers?

[SPEED6 KILLAH]

Originally Posted by JMEngineer DISCLAIMER: This is just a thought I'm throwing out there for discussion - don't do stupid shit! Could it be beneficial to use some high-temp threadlocker/retaining compound on the friction washers?

I have used high-temp threadlocker doesn't really help from what I have seen tho.

[Matrix311]

Originally Posted by SPEED6 KILLAH Matrix clean the Surface area off really good before Installing the washer also note at the end of the day the washer still get oil on it just saying guys..

I did clean the surface area off good and also the washer itself as it had gotten some oil on it. Then I finger tightened the cam bolt and i noticed when we went to torque the cam bolt again a little oil had seeped through it and we didn't clean it off again, we just torqued it down really tight at that time and thats where it stands.

I can't pull that cam bolt without removing the timing chain right? I had to take a bunch of stuff apart this evening as I had a cracked coolant hose, the one that comes out of the t-stat and crosses over the engine near the EGR valve, so this required me to remove the intake manifold. Since I'm this far into removing stuff, I suppose I could remove the valve cover if you find it necessary. I dont have the timing plate anymore that I borrowed from a friend or the TDC stud either. I'm assuming i would need these items if i were to break that cam bolt loose and try to clean the washer as I dont think I can replace it due to the timing cover and chain attached.

I'm assuming this should be ok since Pablo said the washers do see oil during its lifespan and there have been no reports of anyone spinning a cam only the crankbolt I believe.

[Tokay444]

Does the washer get oil between mating surfaces durning normal use? Shouldn't. I would calculatedly and meticulously clean with all the diamond washers, keeping even oil residue from my fingers away from them using nitrile gloves. @phate; @silvapain;
You can get the cams out without pulling the timing cover. DJ wrote a how when he retorqued his head studs.
Also, if no one is slipping the cams, why are people paying to have them pinned?

[silvapain]

The timing chain is squirted with oil from a nozzle in the block/head to keep it lubricated and reduce wear and remove heat. The timing chain area is not submerged in oil under pressure. I find it unlikely that parts machined to as tight of tolerances as the cams and sprockets will have gaps large enough to allow oil to seep in under normal operating conditions.

I don't remember there being any oil on my old friction washers when I pulled them out.

[El_Diablo]

Properly installed, with the washers biting as they should you shouldn't have any oil getting between the washers and sprockets.

[Tokay444]

that's what i figured as well.

[Matrix311]

Ok well I had a setback last night and had to rip the intake manifold off to fix a cracked coolant line. I'm going to take the valve cover off now to gain access to that friction washer.

My question is can I replace that washer without removing the timing chain? Do I need to have the tdc bolt in place and the timing plate on again? If I have to remove the timing chain can I just loosen the cam bolt and clean the washer best I can with brake cleaner and degreaser and dry it with compressed air and then button it back up? My biggest concern is regarding the timing plate and tdc as I borrowed those from someone and do not have them right now.

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[SPEED6 KILLAH]

Here is a picture of a high mileage camshaft that never had the vvt replace can see oil marks on it and get a understand how much it affect the washer

[Matrix311]

Originally Posted by SPEED6 KILLAH Here is a picture of a high mileage camshaft that never had the vvt replace can see oil marks on it and get a understand how much it affect the washer

Wow thats a lot of oil, more then I would have thought. It never slipped i take it?

[SPEED6 KILLAH]

Originally Posted by Matrix311 Wow thats a lot of oil, more then I would have thought. It never slipped i take it?

yup and it never slip too..

[Lex]

Looks like oil never got on the inside of the washer; just around the outside. With it torqued down I doubt you will see oil cover the entire face.

[Matrix311]

I don't even know how much oil got on the washer. All I know is I saw a small bit of oil that seeped through the bolt head as there was a small drip just below the cam sprocket. For all I know it could have seeped out the edge instead of directly over the washer. My car is back together and I'm about to do the initial startup.




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[avesfan101]

Welllll?

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[Matrix311]

Originally Posted by avesfan101 Welllll? Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk

Oil leak on the turbo feed line and my aux fan wiring is not turning on the fan and my clutch is having engagement issues. Aside from that she fired right up on the first attempt after I primed the oil and fuel. Once I hammer these 3 issues out I should be good to go

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[superskaterxes]

glad to see things are working! you should bleed the clutch slave just to be safe

[Matrix311]

Originally Posted by superskaterxes glad to see things are working! you should bleed the clutch slave just to be safe

Oh man I spent a good 30 minutes with my wife bleeding the clutch line and it finally works as it should. I was worried for a while that we put the clutch disk on incorrectly when we reinstalled the clutch because there was no resistance and the clutch wasn't popping out on its own. After constant bleeding and nearly an entire bottle all the air is out of the system and the clutch and brakes are working as they should. Now its about time to tackle this oil feed line leak and then i can enjoy the car and work on getting miles put on it and then start tuning with Justin.

[Lex]

For bleeding brakes and clutch I will not use anything else than this. Makes the job so much easier and pays for itself instantly.

Motive Products #1 Selling DIY Brake Bleeder

[Matrix311]

Originally Posted by Lex For bleeding brakes and clutch I will not use anything else than this. Makes the job so much easier and pays for itself instantly. Motive Products #1 Selling DIY Brake Bleeder

Ya I need to pick one of those up badly. Regardless everything has been bled and all is working properly. I was able to get to the oil feed line without removing the manifold Shew. I removed the old crush washers and out my old ones back in which never leaked once on me. I also put rtv on both washers. Going to let that cure then start it up and check for leaks.

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Here is a shot of the clearance I have with the full race manifold.



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[Lex]

Must feel so great to have this back together and almost ready to rock. Congrats!

[Matrix311]

Originally Posted by Lex Must feel so great to have this back together and almost ready to rock. Congrats!

Yes feels great for sure. The oil leak has been fixed! Only last issue is I have some clunking in the front suspension going on. Sounds like some bushings are wore out possibly. Could be sway bar bushings again. I will have to pull the wheels and make sure everything was tightened down properly. Aside from that this engine is feeling strong. Hopefully I have a successful break in period which gives me a solid reliable built engine.

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[Tokay444]

i've replace front sway bar bushing 3 times. once a year seems to be sop.
same with rear dampers.
i replaced 3 rear dampers this past summer.
time for real dampers i'd say.

[Matrix311]

Originally Posted by Tokay444 i've replace front sway bar bushing 3 times. once a year seems to be sop. same with rear dampers. i replaced 3 rear dampers this past summer. time for real dampers i'd say.

Where are you ordering the front sway bar bushings from? Are you using oem or aftermarket?

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[Tokay444]

i just pick them up at mazda. they're 12 bucks.

[Matrix311]

Cool

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[dan7225]

exhaust clamp on TIP? nice, looks like that would work very well

[El_Diablo]

Originally Posted by dan7225 exhaust clamp on TIP? nice, looks like that would work very well

Uhh, no..... That would be a T-Bolt clamp.

[Nitr0EngiE]

Fwiw using an arp bolt I just torqued 85 ft lb on crank pulley then 90 and another 45. I don't know how much torque that is but I never want to slip

I did basically the same thing two years ago with oem bolt and never had the crank slip and I ran the shit out of my car before turbo took A shit

[Tokay444]

Wow.