Cleaning the Intake Valves

[802MS3]

Check this out: RS4: Intake Manifold Carbon Build-Up & Clean Up

Pretty gross.

I just did the PT-P IM gasket and checked out the valves when I had the IM off. Pretty gross, but definitely not as bad as that RS4.

Is what he did worth it, soaking the valves in seafoam? IIRC, not all of the valves were closed, though I did do a compression test right before that. Call me a noob, but is there a way to shut the valves?

Also, will the carbon degrade performance over time?

[karl-hungus]

i seafoam every other oil change. neighborhood kids love the smoke show. adult neighbors, not so much.

[802MS3]

I've seafoamed every oil change so far, and it hasn't seemed to remove whats on the valves...

[SRTie4k]

Originally Posted by opt_ms3 I've seafoamed every oil change so far, and it hasn't seemed to remove whats on the valves...

Did you inject Seafoam into the intake mani or dump it in the gas? You need to suck it into the intake mani for it to hit the valves.

[802MS3]

Originally Posted by SRTie4k Did you inject Seafoam into the intake mani or dump it in the gas? You need to suck it into the intake mani for it to hit the valves.

Yeah, from the brake booster line. About a half a can each time. Time frame just happened to be right when I do the oil.

[Frequentflyer]

Originally Posted by opt_ms3 I've seafoamed every oil change so far, and it hasn't seemed to remove whats on the valves...

Hmmm... I was afraid of that. I've read so many Seafoam threads of people insisting they "feel" the difference after they run some through the car, but I've never heard of anyone actually physically looking at the valves afterwards, so I've always been skeptical. I had a feeling it was doing jack shit.

[R.MS3]

Does it smoke when you do it opt?

I remember when i did mine the first time, about 28k miles, i used 3/4 of a can, it smoked for 15min straight.

Did it 18k miles later, only a 1/2 a can, smoked for maybe 2min. Weird.

[rodrigo]

carbon buildup on valves will 100% drop performance....it affects airflow.

compare a rough cast intake runner with one thats smothed out and polished and you will notice an increase in flow = performance.

now add a lil mountain of shit (carbon) and flow is compromised...... in valves even worse because they don't open as much as you guys think a valve does...... say in a car that has a .500 lift thats 1/2 inch of opening on a valve.... now subtract from that say a good .200 worth of shit (carbon buildup) around the valve head and u can figure out why your fucken car wont spin second gear anymore.........


cleaning the heads is an absolute must for anyone looking to get 100% available performance from the engine........is it practical??? nope....

and seafoam dont do shit.......... ive used it as well.......makes me feel good but i know it doesnt do jack shit

[Lex]

meth helps some but since it's only used at WOT it doesn't help enough.

The buildup is carbon and oil burned onto the valve stems. It is a well documented DI issue with many variables. Take a look at some SAE docs.

Oil type used, EGR flow, and catch can can help. Not enough testing to tell what oil is best but a high grade synthetic doesn't break down as easily under temp and may not coat parts as much.

[802MS3]

Yeah, when I use seafoam it smokes a bunch.

Catchcan is there, catches some stuff.

The EGR area was definitely gross and it seems to look like most of the carbon build up comes from that. I don't want to deal with the CEL right now since I don't have an AP at the moment, and I've read it actually reduces combustion temp. pros and cons

[aaronc7]

egr only open in part throttle.... so it just gunks everything up 95 percent of the time, then at full throttle its shut- no cylinder temp benefit.

remove that shit and buy my nator block off plates for 10 bucks

[Blackrider]

Mazda still uses EGR valves? Back in the day when I had my Grand Am I turned off the EGR, and still passed emission with flying colours. Sure it helps combustion temps a bit, but so does correct tuning. Both my G6, and G8 didn't/don't have EGR's.
Can you not tune out the EGR?

Anyways, Sea Foam will help reduce/prevent carbon buildup when used regularly, however once carbon buildup gets into the advance stages Sea Foam is not going to be able to penetrate the carbon and break up the bond between the metal.

Carb cleaner it pretty good at breaking up carbon, however I wouldn't go spraying that into your engine, rather if you want to take the intake manifold off you can spray it on the valves directly and let them soak, then carefully break it up. But thats only for very advance stages. As was said earlier, Carbon buildup can dramatically affect airflow, ultimately affecting power and fuel economy.

I cringe thinking about the amount of carbon in my intake manifold, the guy who owned it before me used it 80% highway. I just might pull of the intake this weekend.

[xcoldricex]

Are Your Intake Valves All Guncked Up?


i posted this in the above thread - but there was an rs4 that dyno'd with no change in mods and he had -80hp or something ridiculous than what he got on his last dyno... cleaned up his valves and all that power came back.

some audi owners are going to the dealers and having them clean their valves under warranty.... i doubt mazda would do the same

[aaronc7]

When I had my intake mani off I sprayed some deep creep down onto them. I definitely have some but I don't think its bad for 69k miles. I regularly seafoamed, ran meth, and deleted teh EGR (and catch cans if that matters lol)

[Ned'rland'r]

Wish I understood more about DI and why this isnt an issue for DI diesels. Maybe we should all be running HDEOs.

[radbrad]

Originally Posted by Ned'rland'r Wish I understood more about DI and why this isnt an issue for DI diesels. Maybe we should all be running HDEOs.

MEE TOO. I have been looking all over trying to figure out why DI engine has such a carbon build up problem. Please someone chime in if you know why..

[speed23]

Originally Posted by radbrad MEE TOO. I have been looking all over trying to figure out why DI engine has such a carbon build up problem. Please someone chime in if you know why..

Cause theres no fuel washing over the valves likein a port injection setup.

[dkapetansky]

Originally Posted by radbrad MEE TOO. I have been looking all over trying to figure out why DI engine has such a carbon build up problem. Please someone chime in if you know why..

There seem to be several factors that are combining to produce such a headache for Speed owners.

First, the combustion characteristics of the DI engine produce exhaust that is very sooty, like a diesel's. If you don't believe this, go examine your exhaust tip after a day's driving.

Second, the EGR system shoots that dirty, sooty exhaust directly at the intake elements (manifold, valves), quickly leaving them plenty dirty.

Finally, the DI design injects the fuel directly into the cylinder, completely bypassing the mechanical bits of the intake , and depriving them of any cleansing effect from the fuel wash. So the dirty bits stay that way.

Seems like the only sure way to clean the IM is to pull it off and scrub it out; but few are willing to undertake the hassle and expense of doing this.

[driver311]

Do a catchcan/check valve setup and a egr delete. Most of the problem will go away. Then you just gotta figure out how to get the oil off the valves. On my 47k motor there was so much oil residue on the valves I didnt even know how the motor worked. It was soooooo bad. So this time around I did all these things right off the bat. NO more issues. Im gonna pull my mani here soon to see what it looks like. Heavy valvetrain robs big time power. keep that shit clean boys.

[Speed3eak]

What about this stuff? I remember a thread like this a while ago and somebody said other DI platforms use it a lot b/c seafoam doesn't work so well, so I saved the link:

BG Products 44K Power Enhancer

Here's a photo of the stuff for those that don't want to click on it:

Originally Posted by FredBeansParts BG 44K Power Enhancer safely, rapidly and thoroughly removes engine deposits in combustion chambers, intake manifolds, ports and on valves.

[zx2man]

okies catch can and egr delete, but whats a check valve on this car?

I got 21k miles on my engine so far.


Also I have heard about using this stuff called combustion chamber cleaner, you spray it in a vacuum port while engine is running, then turn it off and let it sit for the night. The start car next day and give it a "Italian tuneup" ie take the car out for hard drive and work that cleaner through the engine. Anyone have any feedback on this?

[dkapetansky]

Originally Posted by Speed3eak What about this stuff? I remember a thread like this a while ago and somebody said other DI platforms use it a lot b/c seafoam doesn't work so well, so I saved the link: BG Products 44K Power Enhancer Here's a photo of the stuff for those that don't want to click on it:

The instructions for this stuff say, "Add one can or bottle to fuel tank at fill up."

Remember, anything that goes into the fuel tank in a DISI engine might hit the fuel injectors, but will miss all the IM parts completely. Doesn't sound too promising for the need we've been discussing.

[rigor]

well i pulled my intake and it has a small grape on each stim,

what you guys figure roll the mtr till the valves close, then load the valves with deep creap? then get to scraping that shit off ? then blow it out / suck it out, or is their a better way?

[Speed3eak]

Originally Posted by dkapetansky The instructions for this stuff say, "Add one can or bottle to fuel tank at fill up." Remember, anything that goes into the fuel tank in a DISI engine might hit the fuel injectors, but will miss all the IM parts completely. Doesn't sound too promising for the need we've been discussing.

Only thing is, in the thread I read, I seem to remember that stuff being used on other DI platforms - what would be the results if we used it like we used it like we do sea foam (aka used the brake booster line)? Or maybe throw a bottle in every few oil changes into a WMI tank?

It also says on the directions in sea foam to dump 1/3 of the can into the gas tank, and 1/3 into the crank case, but you don't see people doing that with our cars very often...

[SPEED6 KILLAH]

You can use this thing called zoom power that Mazda sells. They use it to clean the carbon build up on the apex seal for the rx 8 it work very well... I use this all the time when I install new injector seals to clean up the carbon on the valve stems

[ManMan]

Originally Posted by Ned'rland'r Wish I understood more about DI and why this isnt an issue for DI diesels. Maybe we should all be running HDEOs.

Actually, it's a well documented problem on VW TDI's. The combination of EGR and CCV gunks up the manifold really badly. So they tend to run catch cans and EGR block offs to help with the problem... but just like our engines, it's still an issue.

[Cataphract_40]

Originally Posted by driver311 Do a catchcan/check valve setup and a egr delete. Most of the problem will go away. Then you just gotta figure out how to get the oil off the valves. On my 47k motor there was so much oil residue on the valves I didnt even know how the motor worked. It was soooooo bad. So this time around I did all these things right off the bat. NO more issues. Im gonna pull my mani here soon to see what it looks like. Heavy valvetrain robs big time power. keep that shit clean boys.

very very interested to see those pics, please keep us posted.

[jscape83]

Originally Posted by Blackrider Mazda still uses EGR valves? Back in the day when I had my Grand Am I turned off the EGR, and still passed emission with flying colors.

Of course it did, your not recirculating exhaust back into your intake?


I don't know how safe or effective it would be in a turbo car? But carb or intake aerosol cleans up varnish and carbon buildup really well and if it could make it from the start of the intake tract, through the intercooler etc, it would most likely clean carbon buildup off of the intake valves. I always used that stuff for hand cleaning snowmobile and atv carbs and in other vehicles I've owned. Dont know how safe it is on turbo engines though?. Any thoughts?

I know it doesn't help directly with the intake valves but I also run Lucas Fuel Treatment every third tank of gas in my Speed. Lucas claims the fuel burns cleaner, which I guess could indirectly help with some of the carbon build up?

[Blackrider]

Originally Posted by jscape83 Of course it did, your not reticulating exhaust back into your intake? I don't know how safe or effective it would be in a turbo car? But carb or intake aerosol cleans up varnish and carbon buildup really well and if it could make it from the start of the intake tract, through the intercooler etc, it would most likely clean carbon buildup off of the intake valves. I always used that stuff for hand cleaning snowmobile and atv carbs and in other vehicles I've owned. Dont know how safe it is on turbo engines though?. Any thoughts? I know it doesn't help directly with the intake valves but I also run Lucas Fuel Treatment every third tank of gas in my Speed. Lucas claims the fuel burns cleaner, which I guess could indirectly help with some of the carbon build up?

Clearly you have no idea what the purpose of an EGR is.

[jscape83]

Originally Posted by Blackrider Clearly you have no idea what the purpose of an EGR is.

Lower NOx levels? Putting all that crap back into your engine it just expelled? One more piece that can break and cost you money?

I have had the EGR unhooked on my last mazda and my dakota and passed emissions all the time?

[magicka]

The Exhaust Gas Recirculation (EGR) system is designed to lower combustion temperatures, reducing the amount of NOX produced. It does this by introducing exhaust gas, which is inert, into the combustion chamber. This displaces oxygen, resulting in a leaner burn without the associated temperature spike.

[Fatguy729]

I asked this on another EGR delete thread (with no answer).... what if you just disconnect the electrical connection to the EGR? would it stay shut? or open? or would it open and shut whenever, without something telling it what to do? I know with the egr block off, it still opens and closes, but the air goes nowhere (I'm assuming it backs up BACK into the exhaust)... any thoughts?

[Blackrider]

Originally Posted by Fatguy729 I asked this on another EGR delete thread (with no answer).... what if you just disconnect the electrical connection to the EGR? would it stay shut? or open? or would it open and shut whenever, without something telling it what to do? I know with the egr block off, it still opens and closes, but the air goes nowhere (I'm assuming it backs up BACK into the exhaust)... any thoughts?

I'm pretty sure they fail closed.

[MPSdriver]

You'd probably get the same CEL as with a block-off plate which can be defeated with the AP. I don't understand that none of the existing tuning solutions (AP, SB...) take control of the valve and keep it shut.

[Fatguy729]

Originally Posted by MPSdriver You'd probably get the same CEL as with a block-off plate which can be defeated with the AP. I don't understand that none of the existing tuning solutions (AP, SB...) take control of the valve and keep it shut.

I was thinking I would get the same CEL, but whether or not the valve would stay shut was my concern.

That would be an awesome point to bring up to Cobb. I don't have emission tests in Indiana, but simply flipping a switch in ATR would be awesome to fix the issue (especially for those who do have emissions tests). Like I said, I just didn't know how it would react if it was simply unplugged...

[gtlaw]

Originally Posted by rodrigo carbon buildup on valves will 100% drop performance....it affects airflow. compare a rough cast intake runner with one thats smothed out and polished and you will notice an increase in flow = performance. now add a lil mountain of shit (carbon) and flow is compromised...... in valves even worse because they don't open as much as you guys think a valve does...... say in a car that has a .500 lift thats 1/2 inch of opening on a valve.... now subtract from that say a good .200 worth of shit (carbon buildup) around the valve head and u can figure out why your fucken car wont spin second gear anymore......... cleaning the heads is an absolute must for anyone looking to get 100% available performance from the engine........is it practical??? nope.... and seafoam dont do shit.......... ive used it as well.......makes me feel good but i know it doesnt do jack shit

I want to groan you for explaining that .500 is 1/2', and thank you for stating that seafoam doesn't do shit

[rodrigo]

do u really believe half of these dumbasses know how much .500" actually is???

exactly

[gtlaw]

I think its 6 inches

[801MS3]

Bumping this for a possible solution and/or more brain storming for cleaning the valves (with the head on the car Lenny )

Just did egr block off, have catch can, intake mani is off for a few more days and id really like to get all the shit off my valves as it is pretty bad at 50k. I might try to tape some sort "tool" to my vacuum to both break the shit free (gently) and suck it out at the same time.. think dentist suction thing.

Are we ok to either soak them in some sort of cleaner like carb cleaner or straight seafoam then break the shit up?


Thanks guys.

[laxplayermjd]

Originally Posted by 801MS3 Bumping this for a possible solution and/or more brain storming for cleaning the valves (with the head on the car Lenny ) Just did egr block off, have catch can, intake mani is off for a few more days and id really like to get all the shit off my valves as it is pretty bad at 50k. I might try to tape some sort "tool" to my vacuum to both break the shit free (gently) and suck it out at the same time.. think dentist suction thing. Are we ok to either soak them in some sort of cleaner like carb cleaner or straight seafoam then break the shit up? Thanks guys.

The best way to do it is using a sand blaster with walnut shells media. Hard enough to get the carbon off without damage to the aluminum. As im sure no body has a sand blaster or anything. There is no easy way.

Next best thing is to soak with seafoam,or a fuel injector concentrate of some sort of tool/brush or whatever you can some up with to get down the ports and scrub.

Everything must be done a cylinder with closed valves or you cause big problems