Clutch opinions for Gen1 MS3 that are not like doing a leg press

[Raider]

Yeah? That's the first I have heard of no chatter.

[btstarcher]

It might just be because my dual mass was coming apart and REALLY loud before my transmission blew up, and it's much quieter. But it is at the least much quieter.

Or it might be that the noise is drowned out by my failing A/C compressor; that bitch is pretty loud.

[btstarcher]

Notes on chatter from light weight flywheels - Mazdaspeed Forums

Originally Posted by TiGraySpeed6 Notes on chatter from light weight flywheels Considering a lightweight flywheel? Wondering about "Chatter" or the rattling noise that's often reported, noticeable at idle, in neutral & with the clutch out? Frankly, when you start modifying your car, you're going to have compromises. Some may be completely acceptable, others may not. Things like Motor Mounts, or Single Mass Lightweight Flywheels, can and will introduce new sounds and vibrations that are good happy things to some people, but totally unacceptable to others. Perhaps with some understanding of why a lightweight single mass flywheel "chatters" you can make an informed decision before purchasing, and not freak out after installing and think your new toy is borked, or your install went horribly sideways. So, what's the deal with LW FW chatter? Simply put, you've got a lot of stuff rattling around in the trans, commonly called backlash, as the gears bounce off of each other by pulses from the idling engine that are no longer being damped by the DM FW. A piston engine's power delivery isn't smooth & seamless - Far from it actually and very much not smooth at idle which is what we're concerned about here. Think about the Balance Shaft assembly for a moment, and why it exists. Piston engines are actually pulses of power. Every fire of a spark plug is it's own unique power creation event, or pulse of power. Everything down the line from that explosion, from piston to the tire, has a bit of give, of slack, to it. You can't have everything tight or there would be too much friction and drive train losses would be, at the least, excessive. To our point on the LW FW chattering noise, when that pulse hits the tranny it's transmitted right on through to the gears. It's important to remember that each plug fire is a unique event even tho they happen remarkably fast. In action, this means the gears are actually kind of tapping against each other, not a smooth continuous contact such as when your moving, under load & higher RPM's. Tap your fingers on the table in sequence- pinky, ring, middle, index, over & over again. That's what your engine is doing, albeit really really quickly, and that pulse is transmitted right through to the transmission. At idle these pulses can still be distinct. Twenty-five-ish years ago (1985ish I think?) dual mass flywheels became a popular way to soften this effect. Simply put, a DM FW is just two flywheels in one, coupled together to allow some slight variation between the engine and trans. This is specifically to dampen that pulse, and especially beneficial on 4 cylinder engines that don't have the balancing available to V style engines such as 6 & 8 cylinder engines. The DM FW smooths that pulse & prevents the chatter, and does a damn fine job of it too. They also bring weight & inertia to the party which makes them very popular as they tend to be easier to live with in the average, work day stop & go traffic the the average consumer deals with. Simply put, they're easy to drive. An aluminum lightweight flywheel such as the Fidanza is a classic example of a single-mass flywheel - a single chunk of metal. As an attempt to compensate for the pulsing a sprung-hub clutch is typically used. Originally the Sprung hub clutch plate was used to soften the engagement point as you engage the clutch, but as it happens, it also provides a very small ability to soften the pulse. Unfortunately the sprung hub design only has a very small amount of movement compared to a DM FW and it's benefit is practically negligible on 4 cylinder engines. ACT specifically has both sprung & unsprung hub clutches for the Speeds, with the unsprung tagged as "Race" clutches. It should be noted that this chatter is only particularly noticeable at idle, in neutral & with the clutch out. It should not heard at any other time and raising the idle speed, even just a couple hundred rpm, should move things beyond the point where the pulses are noticeable. Means of addressing the chatter symptom include the use of thicker, or heavier, transmission fluid to help control the backlash that you hear at idle. Changing to a straight 90 weight such as MT-90 can help. Depending on climate you may need to blend fluids to get the needed viscosity for cold winters or very hot summers. I have not had a chance to test any blends yet with my Fidanza-LuK combo and it's chatter. Since I've just filled up with the Motorcraft unicorn juice so it will be a while before I do. Mine's also combined with an 80 duro trans mount so it's chatter central inside the car. Without question your choice of mounts can & will impact how audible the chatter is! Stiff mounts transfer the chatter to the frame rail directly, where the stock mounts isolate very well & will be significantly quieter than aftermarket mounts. Even a stock trans mount with something like the CorkSport inserts will isolate the chatter from the frame. Here's a quote from ACT back when they were contributing to MSF- Originally Posted by ACT Clutches View Post ...Gear rattle ... is caused by the engine's torsional vibrations (violent rotational pulses) being transmitted to the gears in the transmission. The main problem is that it is impossible to replicate the torsional dampening of the stock dual mass flywheel with a light weight single mass flywheel or spring centered disc. There are a variety of different gear noises with different characteristics. Each one requires a specific type of dampening to dampen out the vibration. There is no free lunch to performance. If you like the more responsive lighter flywheel, or turn up the power, it may tend to be a bit noisy...

@phate; has (or had) a Fidanza flywheel at one time as well. I recall a post he made a few years ago that it didn't chatter, or something along those lines.

[fivefingerdeathpunch]

I have a spec 3+ with a fidanza. Thing is light like stock, but is holding much more power. I was slipping with upper 300 torque numbers at the wheels on stock. Also I have no chatter. I, so far luckily, have had no issues that others have complained about with spec. *knocks on wood*. I would personally recommend it, but I completely understand people being sketched out based on bad other reviews from other MSF/mazdaspeed owners.

[Spec]

Originally Posted by fivefingerdeathpunch I have a spec 3+ with a fidanza. Thing is light like stock, but is holding much more power. I was slipping with upper 300 torque numbers at the wheels on stock. Also I have no chatter. I, so far luckily, have had no issues that others have complained about with spec. *knocks on wood*. I would personally recommend it, but I completely understand people being sketched out based on bad other reviews from other MSF/mazdaspeed owners.

+1
Thats probably the best way to describe how I feel about them too.

[phate]

Originally Posted by btstarcher Notes on chatter from light weight flywheels - Mazdaspeed Forums phate has (or had) a Fidanza flywheel at one time as well. I recall a post he made a few years ago that it didn't chatter, or something along those lines.

I had the Fidanza in my MS3. When it had all stiff engine mounts, it chattered quite a bit. When I stocked it out, I left the Fidanza but put in all stock mounts and the chatter nearly all disappeared.

[license2ill]

Damn if that thing was slipping in 6th, it musta been spinning like crazy in lower gears.

How much is an oem replacement with labor? My luck will imply that as soon as I upgrade/replace tires and shocks/struts, it'll need some sort of major mechanical work like a clutch.

[someguy]

Originally Posted by Raider I think I am going to go South Bend Daily clutch package. Yes, OEM is fine, like LUK. But piecing a ton of shit together is gonna be easier when I can call Edge, get all my OEM replacement stuff, seals, TOB, etc, the kit, and just need to source the high temp grease. My knees are not so bad that shifting sucks all together, I just don't need a stage 6, 16 puck, teflon diamond plated clutch that can snap a femur downshifting. Now to get my tax $, and blow it on hookers and blow. And maybe a clutch.

High temp grease:

Amazon.com: Red Line 80402 Synthetic Grease: Automotive

Amazon.com: Red Line 80402 Synthetic Grease: Automotive
Amazon.com: Red Line 80402 Synthetic Grease: Automotive

[Spec]

Originally Posted by someguy High temp grease: Amazon.com: Red Line 80402 Synthetic Grease: Automotive Is what I intend on using when I put in my SB clutch in the spring...unless someone tells me there is something wrong about this kind of grease?

You'll be fine with that. Anything you can find with a 500* drop off point or higher.

[someguy]

Originally Posted by Spec You'll be fine with that. Anything you can find with a 500* drop off point or higher.

It's dropping point is 900f Actual usable temp range is to 500f.

Honestly I hope nothing is getting that hot ...

[Cataphract_40]

Car was dropped off at 8am this morning. I'll post up results as soon as I get it back.

[spals]

My SB Stage 2 Daily pedal feel is pretty much stock. Sometimes I get flywheel chatter which is annoying but I can live with it.

[nybe0010]

i have got about 1500 miles on my oem + fidanza combo from edge comes with everything you need. the fidanza has replaceable friction plates, so you don't have to resurface it. Also, the oem clutch has "LUK" all over. its literally the same thing

i was worried about the chatter as well, but i couldn't justify the $1300 or whatever for the oem flywheel. The chatter is pretty damn bad for me, but i do have all 3 88 mounts from JBR so that definitely makes a difference

[Cataphract_40]

Raider -

From another thread...(specifically Need new clutch opinions... Clutchmasters fx300 shit the bed

Originally Posted by biggman026 I have about 2000 miles on my South Bend stage 3 endurance clutch, and I love it so far. Can't really comment on longevity as it's basically new still, but if you look around on the site everyone who has purchased one is very happy. It holds power easily with my mods, and is easier to drive than the stock clutch. Clutch feel is barely stiffer than stock at this point.

Originally Posted by leka I also have South bend stage 3 daily, Love this clutch! had it for 6 months now, and the car is my DD

[biggman026]

I have about 3500 on my south bend stage 3 endurance now, love the clutch. Holds power easily on back to back WOT pulls, barely stiffer than stock (maybe 20% stiffer - much better feel actually), very smooth engagement, and not a bit of chatter.

[Cataphract_40]

Originally Posted by Cataphract_40 Car was dropped off at 8am this morning. I'll post up results as soon as I get it back.

Update: Clutch slave cylinder was found to be leaking, so the shop ordered an OEM replacement from Mazda. I authorized replacement of the master cylinder as well.

So...it'll be a few more days until it's done.

[Cataphract_40]

Ok, after several delays it's done.

Initial impressions: The very first thing I noticed is the dramatically reduced pedal travel.

I've driven other peoples' MS3s in the past, and noticed that clutch pedal can be different from car to car. Mine had a particularly high point of engagement. Now, the point of engagement is just slightly higher than the end of travel. Practically zero 'dead zone' from fully depressed to when the engagement starts. I realize that this is adjustable, and I may tinker with it.

Stiffness: Stiffer than stock. Granted, my driveline has 99,000 miles on it, so the factory pressure plate had probably softened quite a bit, and they put in a new master and slave cylinder with the clutch/flywheel, but you will notice a stiffer pedal.

How much stiffer? I'd say 110%-120% of the stock pedal. So, approximately a 10%-20% increase. It IS a stage 3 endurance clutch, after all.

Paradoxically, the shorter travel, lower engagement point, and stiffer clutch seems to make it EASIER to change gears. The vagueness is gone from the pedal. You know exactly where it's going to engage. And the feel is so solid. I have no doubt in South Bend's claim that this clutch can handle 450 ft-lbs. It's monstrous.

I had the mechanic save the factory clutch and flywheel. I was having a problem similar to this guy: Rumbling noise and shaking after wot in 4 gear

The factory clutch disc looks fine but the factory dual mass flywheel is kind of wobbly. Haven't noticed the noise yet since the installation of the new flywheel.

As far as chatter goes: there is a slight increase. It's inaudible inside the car. It's only really audible if you go put your ear next to the driver's side wheel.

Let me know if you have any more questions for me about this.

[Spec]

You can adjust the pedal on the genone?

[Cataphract_40]

Originally Posted by Spec You can adjust the pedal on the genone?

After searching...no. Fuck. That's just the MS6. My bad.

Anyway, this guy has great things to say about the break-in on the SBC. My experience is 100% on par with his so far.

New Southbend Clutch Stage 3 to be installed!

[Raider]

Well, southbend stage 2 daily clutch ordered. Piles of seals and bearings and shift fork too from @EdgeAutosport.com; Installing in coming weeks by a friend. Getting a discount for smoking up a pork butt for pulled pork.

Will report on how if goes!

[Cataphract_40]

Don't forget the 6 flywheel bolts and the transmission fluid!

Also have it on your radar that my slave cylinder was bad, so keep that in mind.

[Raider]

Originally Posted by Cataphract_40 Don't forget the 6 flywheel bolts and the transmission fluid! Also have it on your radar that my slave cylinder was bad, so keep that in mind.

All this was ordered too:
Throwout bearing
-Pilot bearing
-Rear main seal
-Clutch fork
-Both axle seals:
-6x flywheel bolts
-Transmission fluid

[Spec]

Originally Posted by Raider All this was ordered too: Throwout bearing -Pilot bearing -Rear main seal -Clutch fork -Both axle seals: -6x flywheel bolts -Transmission fluid -Pork butt

Fixed.

I'd change out the driver side axle seal after you get the Trans in. If the genone has the same subframe set up, it just gets in the way and when you're watching the input Shaft and trying to get it in the clutch, it's easy to rub it on the subframe. The passenger side doesn't really have much in the way and might be a little harder to change once in, I'd knock that out when the transmission out .

[Raider]

Nope. Getting it fresh from the butcher 2 days prior. 36 hour marinade in my sugar free rub...yum

[license2ill]

Originally Posted by Raider Well, southbend stage 2 daily clutch ordered. Piles of seals and bearings and shift fork too from @EdgeAutosport.com; Installing in coming weeks by a friend. Getting a discount for smoking up a pork butt for pulled pork. Will report on how if goes!

Why did you choose this one? They don't show any info on the southbend items on the edge site, and I didn't find any threads about them here either.

[Raider]

Originally Posted by license2ill Why did you choose this one? They don't show any info on the southbend items on the edge site, and I didn't find any threads about them here either.

Cost was part. And read this: The Southbend Clutch INFO Thread

Some online searching helped. Really, no clutch chatter and cheaper than an OEM flywheel.

The only other one I was considering was a Kentucky Clutch with a ACT flywheel that a shop on OH sells. But it seemed to be a little too stiff for my taking.

[08cosmic3]

My ACT 6 puck with pro lite fly is loud as hell and makes the car sound like a diesel while idling with AC on. My left leg could now kick my right legs ass too.

[Spec]

Originally Posted by 08cosmic3 My ACT 6 puck with pro lite fly is loud as hell and makes the car sound like a diesel while idling with AC on. My left leg could now kick my right legs ass too.

I bumped the ac high idle up a little. I liked the way it rattled but I wanted the option to "turn it off" so to speak.

[Raider]

Originally Posted by 08cosmic3 My ACT 6 puck with pro lite fly is loud as hell and makes the car sound like a diesel while idling with AC on. My left leg could now kick my right legs ass too.

Yeah, I want none of that. I want to have a decent clutch that won't slip when trying to get on the freeway.

[Spec]

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[Raider]

That made me giggle.

[Cataphract_40]

Originally Posted by Raider Yeah, I want none of that. I want to have a decent clutch that won't slip when trying to get on the freeway.

Don't neglect the break-in period.

[Raider]

ImageUploadedByTapatalk1425580405.619899.jpg

First shipment is here!

[license2ill]

Now all you need is a see-through, clear window bell housing.

[Raider]

Originally Posted by license2ill Now all you need is a see-through, clear window bell housing.

That would be cool!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Spec]

You get your shit put together ninja

[Cevaes_64]

@Raider; Whats your final review on this clutch? im looking as well

[Raider]

April 12th, it goes in.

[Cataphract_40]

Update on my clutch.

I was concerned that there was a strange 'dead zone' at the top of the pedal (as in it was totally floppy and not stiff at all in the first 2-3" of travel), and also that the pedal's return was not nearly as 'springy' as I was used to. So, I got under the dash and felt around up in the pedal area.

It turns out my mechanic had (accidentally?) unhooked the spring that's part of the clutch pedal assembly:



Its function is to assist in pressing down the pedal as well as helping the pedal return. If you ever have the clutch pedal out, it essentially changes the pedal's throw from a loose, no-resistance swing to a very snappy, on/off switch. Push down on the clutch pedal a little (with no master cylinder attached, that is), and it will snap all the way to full throw. Pull on it a little from full throw, and it will snap back to full engagement. It works exactly like a household lightswitch.

The presence of the master cylinder and pressure plate tempers this throw, and the end result is a pedal that's easier to press, easier to hold down at full throw, and easier to release.

How did I know it wasn't working right? I noticed in the morning that it was impossible to get into reverse when I first started the car. The pedal had sunk a tiny bit overnight, so when I went to press it first thing, I wasn't getting the full throw. The pedal spring solves this problem by pushing the pedal back to the full upright position every time you release it.

So I went ahead and pulled the pedal assembly, reconnected the spring, and replaced the pedal. Which, by the way, is a pain in the fucking ass.

Sooooo...how does it feel now? It's even easier to use the pedal and I and am even more comfortable with it now. Plus, no more having to pull up on the pedal to get the full throw

[Raider]

ImageUploadedByTapatalk1428929773.050709.jpg
ImageUploadedByTapatalk1428929780.819332.jpg
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Wifi hotspots, chunks of clutch disc, and an evil pilot bearing remnant later, clutch is in. Needs adjustment asap, was too late to do yesterday. But feels great tho.

Now I need brakes and rotors since seeing I have nothing left of the pads, rotors are wasted.

Tired.