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MazdaSpeed 3 - Engine, Transmission & Driveline Discussion of engine, tranny and drivelines.


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 Old 12-30-2017, 12:49 PM   #1
 
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Default Clutch Options

So... trying to weigh my options for clutches while I'm waiting for parts to be delivered for my engine. Now there is some grey area when it comes to this, I have not decided on what turbo I am going to run, that is cause for a different thread that will be coming up very shortly. But, what is going to happen is forged pistons, h-beam rods and arp main studs, so I guess for all inventive purposes lets just say a CorkSport turbo will be fitted as I feel that its in the middle for size and power output for what I am looking for. So if I had to make an non educated guess I'd say 300-350 CRANK HP is a number, I can tell you guys that a K04 is not going back into this car if that helps.

What can the stock clutch hold for power? And what is a good option that isn't $1k?

I would rather use the stock dual mass flywheel to save some dough-ray-me if possible, this car is not going to be a full on racecar, I need to live with this thing for a daily driver.
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White/Black interior
Sure Diff Mounts, JBR Intake, JBR I/C Hoses, Wiesco pistons .5mm over, Molnar H-Beam Rods, King bearings, New to me Cylinder Block, CS turbo, CS catted turbo back exhaust, CS HPFP, CS EBCS, CS injector seals, AP v3, FREEKTUNE, rebuilt clutch from Falcon Clutch with kevlar lining, DM PCV plate, DM stage 1 OCC, EcoBoost oil pump
Soon: CS HPFP line, fix oil leak from turbo return line and some more stuff....


To think... this is suppose to be my winter car... because,

'72 AMC Javelin AMX 366 CI, 4speed 13.13 quickest 1/4 mile et so far

'12 1/2 Triumph Daytona 675R stock some how
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 Old 12-30-2017, 12:59 PM   #2
 
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I will complete a similar built next summer. However, I ran k04 for a bit. On e85 mix my nearly new OEM clutch started slipping in 4th gear. I am installing intake and CS turbo in a few months.

I have talked to a tuner and he said that CS is a 450 whp turbo. I'm hoping to land close to 390whp on stock fueling.

I have been reading about clutches and want a pedal that is not too heavy, close to stock. I have read that spec stage3+ is about as heavy as the stock clutch. Therefore, that is what I'm going to pick up.

I'm pretty sure you will slip on stock clutch....some people get lucky. You should replace that flywheel as replacing it later when it turns out to vibrate or cause issues is a pain in the ass. I just did a clutch on my Mazda 3 and putting it back sucked big time.
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2005 Mazda 3 SP23: mods include rusty quarter panels and grinding 3rd gear. It does have a fusion motor, so I guess that's a mod too.
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 Old 12-30-2017, 01:17 PM   #3
 
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Buddy of mine has an 06 speed6 with CS turbo with supporting mods and a freektune, tune and have experienced no clutch slip so far, maybe he is lucky.

I see what you are saying on pedal feel, but my mentality is that with a hydraulic actuated clutch, you should be able to run something fairly aggressive and not have a huge left calf. I come from the world of 70's cars that are mechanically actuated, I have a Mcleod diaphragm clutch in my 72 Javelin AMX and its really not that bad, I can drive that every day with no issues other then a huge fuel bill, now if it had an old three finger pressure plate then I'd be walking funny as my left leg would look like a body builders and the right as a regular guy.

ACT street clutches look ok to me, I know they come with a different flywheel but as long as others have had good luck with them and they can hold up it might be a viable option.
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Sure Diff Mounts, JBR Intake, JBR I/C Hoses, Wiesco pistons .5mm over, Molnar H-Beam Rods, King bearings, New to me Cylinder Block, CS turbo, CS catted turbo back exhaust, CS HPFP, CS EBCS, CS injector seals, AP v3, FREEKTUNE, rebuilt clutch from Falcon Clutch with kevlar lining, DM PCV plate, DM stage 1 OCC, EcoBoost oil pump
Soon: CS HPFP line, fix oil leak from turbo return line and some more stuff....


To think... this is suppose to be my winter car... because,

'72 AMC Javelin AMX 366 CI, 4speed 13.13 quickest 1/4 mile et so far

'12 1/2 Triumph Daytona 675R stock some how
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 Old 12-31-2017, 10:04 AM   #4
 
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I've read the stock clutch starts to give out in the mid-to-upper 300's WTQ.
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Manley Pistons & H-Tuff Rods, King Bearings
Stock Head/Cams, Stock Int/Exh Manifolds
Versatuner, 3-bar MAP, NGK6510, CP-e TMIC
CS Turbo/DP/RP/HPFP/BPV/R-DiffMount
White Widow F-DiffMount, Whiteline RSB
Russian Bushings in Back, Poly FSB Bushings, Magnaflow CBE, ACT sprung 6-puck/Streetlite
JBR Tru-3.5/3-port EBCS/EGR-D
Damond RMM/PMM/Stage 2 OCC/PCV Plate
AWR TMM on stand-by
Other rides:
2002 Tacoma ExtCab 2.4L 5spd 2WD - 355k mile Speed support vehicle.
2004 Olds Alero ECOtec 2.2 - Broken (since Christmas 2015 and I really need to get rid of it)
History:
2008 GSX-R 1000 - Stolen (With several runs past 180, I'd probably be dead by now if it wasn't stolen. So in a way, I'm thankful.)
1988 RX-7 TII - Sold (Megasquirt, streetport, filter-on-turbo SRI, custom TBE, 20psi boost creep on OE turbo, OE TMIC on ice, 13.467 @ 105.44) apex seals said buh bye!
1985 Camaro - Sold (est. 265bhp 5.7 swap, Edelbrock intake & Hooker headers)
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 Old 12-31-2017, 01:19 PM   #5
 
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@Fstrnyou; with the motor that you are building for your car, which sounds somewhat similar to what I am doing, what were you planning on running for a clutch? I am temped to run the stock one if mid to upper 300 wtq is realistic but I don't want to be on the harry edge of the limit either.
@stockms3; 450 whp but at what psi? 30? 40? Is it that figure maxing out the CS turbo?

My buddy is running 20-21 psi with his, he is also on stock internals which in my opinion is a ticking time bomb but with no ill effects as of yet. With the internals that I am going to run I should be able to push 26ish easy if not more but 26 would most likely be the most my car would see.
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White/Black interior
Sure Diff Mounts, JBR Intake, JBR I/C Hoses, Wiesco pistons .5mm over, Molnar H-Beam Rods, King bearings, New to me Cylinder Block, CS turbo, CS catted turbo back exhaust, CS HPFP, CS EBCS, CS injector seals, AP v3, FREEKTUNE, rebuilt clutch from Falcon Clutch with kevlar lining, DM PCV plate, DM stage 1 OCC, EcoBoost oil pump
Soon: CS HPFP line, fix oil leak from turbo return line and some more stuff....


To think... this is suppose to be my winter car... because,

'72 AMC Javelin AMX 366 CI, 4speed 13.13 quickest 1/4 mile et so far

'12 1/2 Triumph Daytona 675R stock some how
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 Old 12-31-2017, 01:49 PM   #6
 
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Currently building for around 450whp...I could get away with the stock clutch if I tune the torque to stay below 400. But my current clutch is practically brand new. A seasoned clutch may not fare so well.

I have picked out, at EdgeAutosport, the ACT HD sprung 6-puck with streetlite flywheel. Just waiting on funds to click buy. I have very little experience with aftermarket clutches.
The other option is Southbend. I was looking at their Stage 3 Endurance, but the Southbend kits cost a few hundos more than the better known ACT brand.
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2006 MS6 GT - 161.5k Miles(Forged@157,116)
Manley Pistons & H-Tuff Rods, King Bearings
Stock Head/Cams, Stock Int/Exh Manifolds
Versatuner, 3-bar MAP, NGK6510, CP-e TMIC
CS Turbo/DP/RP/HPFP/BPV/R-DiffMount
White Widow F-DiffMount, Whiteline RSB
Russian Bushings in Back, Poly FSB Bushings, Magnaflow CBE, ACT sprung 6-puck/Streetlite
JBR Tru-3.5/3-port EBCS/EGR-D
Damond RMM/PMM/Stage 2 OCC/PCV Plate
AWR TMM on stand-by
Other rides:
2002 Tacoma ExtCab 2.4L 5spd 2WD - 355k mile Speed support vehicle.
2004 Olds Alero ECOtec 2.2 - Broken (since Christmas 2015 and I really need to get rid of it)
History:
2008 GSX-R 1000 - Stolen (With several runs past 180, I'd probably be dead by now if it wasn't stolen. So in a way, I'm thankful.)
1988 RX-7 TII - Sold (Megasquirt, streetport, filter-on-turbo SRI, custom TBE, 20psi boost creep on OE turbo, OE TMIC on ice, 13.467 @ 105.44) apex seals said buh bye!
1985 Camaro - Sold (est. 265bhp 5.7 swap, Edelbrock intake & Hooker headers)
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 Old 12-31-2017, 02:17 PM   #7
 
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Originally Posted by Fstrnyou View Post
Currently building for around 450whp...I could get away with the stock clutch if I tune the torque to stay below 400. But my current clutch is practically brand new. A seasoned clutch may not fare so well.

I have picked out, at EdgeAutosport, the ACT HD sprung 6-puck with streetlite flywheel. Just waiting on funds to click buy. I have very little experience with aftermarket clutches.
The other option is Southbend. I was looking at their Stage 3 Endurance, but the Southbend kits cost a few hundos more than the better known ACT brand.
I've got the Stage 3 Endurance, in an MS3 granted, but I've got about 10-15k miles on it and it is awesome. Takes a week to get used to the heavier pedal, but past that it is super smooth. As in smoother engagement than stock. With all motor mounts there is some chatter at idle but nothing too obnoxious, mostly when A/C is on.
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 Old 12-31-2017, 02:21 PM   #8
 
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Any mild aftermarket clutch should be smoother than the on/off switch of the stock clutch.
__________________
2006 MS6 GT - 161.5k Miles(Forged@157,116)
Manley Pistons & H-Tuff Rods, King Bearings
Stock Head/Cams, Stock Int/Exh Manifolds
Versatuner, 3-bar MAP, NGK6510, CP-e TMIC
CS Turbo/DP/RP/HPFP/BPV/R-DiffMount
White Widow F-DiffMount, Whiteline RSB
Russian Bushings in Back, Poly FSB Bushings, Magnaflow CBE, ACT sprung 6-puck/Streetlite
JBR Tru-3.5/3-port EBCS/EGR-D
Damond RMM/PMM/Stage 2 OCC/PCV Plate
AWR TMM on stand-by
Other rides:
2002 Tacoma ExtCab 2.4L 5spd 2WD - 355k mile Speed support vehicle.
2004 Olds Alero ECOtec 2.2 - Broken (since Christmas 2015 and I really need to get rid of it)
History:
2008 GSX-R 1000 - Stolen (With several runs past 180, I'd probably be dead by now if it wasn't stolen. So in a way, I'm thankful.)
1988 RX-7 TII - Sold (Megasquirt, streetport, filter-on-turbo SRI, custom TBE, 20psi boost creep on OE turbo, OE TMIC on ice, 13.467 @ 105.44) apex seals said buh bye!
1985 Camaro - Sold (est. 265bhp 5.7 swap, Edelbrock intake & Hooker headers)
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 Old 01-01-2018, 01:46 AM   #9
 
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My clutch recently started to slip at peak torque. I have about 41k miles on the stock clutch. About 10k of those miles with the CS turbo. I don't feel like spending money on the car so I detuned the car for now.
I've been looking at Southbend stage 2 daily... I don't need anything aggressive. Something that is good enough to hold the power and not make the pedal too heavy.
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 Old 01-01-2018, 03:21 PM   #10
 
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Originally Posted by LenSpeed6 View Post
@Fstrnyou; with the motor that you are building for your car, which sounds somewhat similar to what I am doing, what were you planning on running for a clutch? I am temped to run the stock one if mid to upper 300 wtq is realistic but I don't want to be on the harry edge of the limit either.
@stockms3; 450 whp but at what psi? 30? 40? Is it that figure maxing out the CS turbo?

My buddy is running 20-21 psi with his, he is also on stock internals which in my opinion is a ticking time bomb but with no ill effects as of yet. With the internals that I am going to run I should be able to push 26ish easy if not more but 26 would most likely be the most my car would see.
I am not sure what PSI, I believe some people run it around 28. I don't think my tuner would push the turbo beyond its limits. Even CS list 250-450 hp on their site.
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2005 Mazda 3 SP23: mods include rusty quarter panels and grinding 3rd gear. It does have a fusion motor, so I guess that's a mod too.
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 Old 01-01-2018, 04:07 PM   #11
 
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I'm pushing 18psi thru my CS turbo on stock internals. My ambitious guess is just shy of 300whp. I load tune, so, for reference, the ambient temps were around 70F.
I've seen multiple stock block members pushing mid 300's up to 400whp in unicorn cases. I don't have the balls to push my old motor any harder than I am. 148k miles as of today.
__________________
2006 MS6 GT - 161.5k Miles(Forged@157,116)
Manley Pistons & H-Tuff Rods, King Bearings
Stock Head/Cams, Stock Int/Exh Manifolds
Versatuner, 3-bar MAP, NGK6510, CP-e TMIC
CS Turbo/DP/RP/HPFP/BPV/R-DiffMount
White Widow F-DiffMount, Whiteline RSB
Russian Bushings in Back, Poly FSB Bushings, Magnaflow CBE, ACT sprung 6-puck/Streetlite
JBR Tru-3.5/3-port EBCS/EGR-D
Damond RMM/PMM/Stage 2 OCC/PCV Plate
AWR TMM on stand-by
Other rides:
2002 Tacoma ExtCab 2.4L 5spd 2WD - 355k mile Speed support vehicle.
2004 Olds Alero ECOtec 2.2 - Broken (since Christmas 2015 and I really need to get rid of it)
History:
2008 GSX-R 1000 - Stolen (With several runs past 180, I'd probably be dead by now if it wasn't stolen. So in a way, I'm thankful.)
1988 RX-7 TII - Sold (Megasquirt, streetport, filter-on-turbo SRI, custom TBE, 20psi boost creep on OE turbo, OE TMIC on ice, 13.467 @ 105.44) apex seals said buh bye!
1985 Camaro - Sold (est. 265bhp 5.7 swap, Edelbrock intake & Hooker headers)
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 Old 01-01-2018, 04:43 PM   #12
 
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I just had a SB Endo stage 3 clutch installed. My mechanic and I estimate torque about 450 at the crank. So far, the clutch feels good and barely feel chatter with the A/C on. I can't remember what the OE clutch feels anymore because I had a CP-e stage 1 in there. SB is a lot lighter than the CP-e one. I heard ACT 6 puck is a good clutch. I am hoping that the SB will last longer than the ACT one. Still breaking in the SB. GL with your decision.
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 Old 01-02-2018, 11:49 AM   #13
 
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@Poohster; about how long did your ACT clutch last? how much abuse did you throw at it?
@Fstrnyou; yeah my buddy is at 21psi on stock internals with around 109K, I told him 19 before should do it but it has been surviving so far... time will tell.

Im guessing I should be able to do 23-26 with my set up on the high side with no issues witht he motor, then everything else breaks but my decision on that isn't final, I might go lower just because.
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06 Speed6
White/Black interior
Sure Diff Mounts, JBR Intake, JBR I/C Hoses, Wiesco pistons .5mm over, Molnar H-Beam Rods, King bearings, New to me Cylinder Block, CS turbo, CS catted turbo back exhaust, CS HPFP, CS EBCS, CS injector seals, AP v3, FREEKTUNE, rebuilt clutch from Falcon Clutch with kevlar lining, DM PCV plate, DM stage 1 OCC, EcoBoost oil pump
Soon: CS HPFP line, fix oil leak from turbo return line and some more stuff....


To think... this is suppose to be my winter car... because,

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 Old 01-02-2018, 01:54 PM   #14
 
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I did a fair amount of reading before deciding on my South Bend Stage 2 Endurance. It was heavy at first, but has since become lighter, or my leg is stronger?

Its a great setup. But yeah, it was over $1K. Considering it took two days to replace I don't mind spending more so I don't have to do it again anytime soon!

I wouldn't reuse the stock flywheel. The internal springs fatigue over time and I don't know of any shop that would resurface it.

The least expensive option for our cars is the Fidanza flywheel with Luk clutch. Lots of threads on it.
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 Old 01-02-2018, 01:55 PM   #15
 
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Long term, i plan on pushing the CS turbo as high as it will go or until I run out of money to support how high it will go...lol. Once the motor is built, I'll be limited by my stock TMIC. Once I'm overy that hurdle, I'll be limited by fuel system. Once I'm over that hurdle, my stock exh mani and stock cat-back will be the issue. And I'm sure even soft launching it, I will eventually snap an axle.

Even though overpowering the stock clutch is quite a ways down the road, I don't want to have to deal with a clutch change mid progression. The ACT HD 6-puck is "rated" at 530TQ. That should cover anything I intend to do.
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 Old 01-02-2018, 02:01 PM   #16
 
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Originally Posted by Thor Hammer View Post
The least expensive option for our cars is the Fidanza flywheel with Luk clutch. Lots of threads on it.
Entry level upgrade, I completely agree. It crossed my mind to due that setup a few months back when my original clutch broke apart. But I got a sweet deal on new Luk kit that included the flywheel all the way to the slave cylinder. However, the Fidanza won't provide any additional holding power over stock. It's just a little lighter.
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 Old 01-06-2018, 06:31 AM   #17
 
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Originally Posted by LenSpeed6 View Post
@Poohster; about how long did your ACT clutch last? how much abuse did you throw at it?
@Fstrnyou; yeah my buddy is at 21psi on stock internals with around 109K, I told him 19 before should do it but it has been surviving so far... time will tell.

Im guessing I should be able to do 23-26 with my set up on the high side with no issues witht he motor, then everything else breaks but my decision on that isn't final, I might go lower just because.
Sorry, I have been out of pocket. I did have the ACT clutch. I had a stage 1 CP-e clutch. I don't think I abused it and it only lasted around 20K miles. The clutch was at heavy as hell. I believe I completely wore it out.

I read ACT lasts about 20-30K miles but would like to hear from an ACT owner. I went with Southbend because I believe it would last longer.
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 Old 01-06-2018, 06:26 PM   #18
 
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Originally Posted by Poohster View Post
Sorry, I have been out of pocket. I did have the ACT clutch. I had a stage 1 CP-e clutch. I don't think I abused it and it only lasted around 20K miles. The clutch was at heavy as hell. I believe I completely wore it out.

I read ACT lasts about 20-30K miles but would like to hear from an ACT owner. I went with Southbend because I believe it would last longer.
Plus one for the SB stage 3 endurance, 40,000 miles on mine and it still feels bullet proof, and that's heavy daily traffic and beat on with full slicks at the drag strip running 11 sec times.
ACT seems to be hit and miss some last and others have had them completely fall apart at 10,000 miles
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 Old 01-07-2018, 04:41 PM   #19
 
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Unfortunately I think that a SB stage 3 endurance is going to be a little out of my price range. It seems like if South Bend is the clutch to get, a stage 2 daily is more in my range, I'm going to say that my car isn't going to make anymore then 400 HP/TQ at the absolute most at the crank so with taking 20% of that for drivetrain loss I'm theoretically at 320ish WHP and would guess that the torque figure would be around the same and SB rates the stage 2 daily at 350 ft/lbs, now weather that is at the crank or wheel is the question.

So I'm guessing that there isn't much chatter or other negative things with South Bend clutches, I aspect that there is going to be some chatter with an aftermarket clutch.

It ACT is hit or miss then I'm going to stay away from them, I really don't want to have to rip this car apart again in 10K-30K for a clutch.
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To think... this is suppose to be my winter car... because,

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 Old 01-07-2018, 04:45 PM   #20
 
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At 320whp, get a stock clutch with maybe a Fidanza flywheel.
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 Old 01-07-2018, 04:55 PM   #21
 
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Originally Posted by Fstrnyou View Post
At 320whp, get a stock clutch with maybe a Fidanza flywheel.
My stock clutch slipped at that power level, and it was brand new too. I would not risk putting a stocker and replacing it shortly after.
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 Old 01-07-2018, 04:58 PM   #22
 
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Originally Posted by Fstrnyou View Post
At 320whp, get a stock clutch with maybe a Fidanza flywheel.
There is a guy in NY, falcon clutch I think its called, replaces friction disk on stock clutch with Teflon, rebuilds and resurfaces the stock dual mass flywheel so there is no chatter. Should handle a good amount of power. He quoted me like $600 with a few days turn around.

Just another option

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 Old 01-07-2018, 07:23 PM   #23
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luk/fidanza combo here. 40k miles fully bolted with bnr s3, at least 15k miles on e85 at 350+ awhp, dozens of launches, lots of flat foot shifting. pedal feels good, clutch doesn't slip and shifts well, but i would never install this combo as it is the worst noise i have ever heard a car make.
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 Old 01-07-2018, 07:26 PM   #24
 
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Ah...flywheel too light? Guess I better stay away from ACT Prolite eh?
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1988 RX-7 TII - Sold (Megasquirt, streetport, filter-on-turbo SRI, custom TBE, 20psi boost creep on OE turbo, OE TMIC on ice, 13.467 @ 105.44) apex seals said buh bye!
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 Old 01-07-2018, 07:35 PM   #25
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it's a great option if you don't mind your car sounding like an old busted tractor. i've really only got a rmm, so i'd hate to hear what it's like on a fully mounted 6.
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 Old 01-12-2018, 12:04 PM   #26
 
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Originally Posted by tmillner View Post
There is a guy in NY, falcon clutch I think its called, replaces friction disk on stock clutch with Teflon, rebuilds and resurfaces the stock dual mass flywheel so there is no chatter. Should handle a good amount of power. He quoted me like $600 with a few days turn around.

Just another option

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Good Call!

Just got off the phone with Marc from Falcon Clutch, very nice guy to deal with, looks like this is the route that I'm going to pursue. Quoted me $625 for the job to dude up the flywheel, pressure plate and clutch disk, should hold 425-450ish torques.
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Soon: CS HPFP line, fix oil leak from turbo return line and some more stuff....


To think... this is suppose to be my winter car... because,

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Originally Posted by tmillner View Post
There is a guy in NY, falcon clutch I think its called, replaces friction disk on stock clutch with Teflon, rebuilds and resurfaces the stock dual mass flywheel so there is no chatter. Should handle a good amount of power. He quoted me like $600 with a few days turn around.

Just another option

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Teflon, as in Kevlar? Can't imagine he's making non-stick friction disks haha.

Also another thing to consider is failure of the dual mass flywheel, they do happen, I'd imagine at a more common rate with AWD launches, unless he also does new springs and the friction ring inside the flywheel. Just some food for thought OP.
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 Old 01-12-2018, 12:14 PM   #28
 
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I think he includes a new pilot and throw out bearing. Glad I could help

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Originally Posted by MoMS3 View Post
Teflon, as in Kevlar? Can't imagine he's making non-stick friction disks haha.

Also another thing to consider is failure of the dual mass flywheel, they do happen, I'd imagine at a more common rate with AWD launches, unless he also does new springs and the friction ring inside the flywheel. Just some food for thought OP.
Yeah duh, ill blame it on autocorrect.

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UR TBE/JBR RMM/UNKNOWN HPFP INTERNALS/COBB V2 AP/CS SRI + TIH/CXRACING FMIC

Last edited by tmillner; 01-12-2018 at 12:14 PM. Reason: MSF Database - Automerged Doublepost
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 Old 01-12-2018, 12:58 PM   #29
 
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@MoMS3;
I understand your concern but if this thing sees the drag strip it will be lucky to see it two or three times at the most, have a car for that already. I'm not planning on 6k launches anyway.
@tmillner;
Yes exactly, seems like a great deal, not knocking other clutches out there.
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06 Speed6
White/Black interior
Sure Diff Mounts, JBR Intake, JBR I/C Hoses, Wiesco pistons .5mm over, Molnar H-Beam Rods, King bearings, New to me Cylinder Block, CS turbo, CS catted turbo back exhaust, CS HPFP, CS EBCS, CS injector seals, AP v3, FREEKTUNE, rebuilt clutch from Falcon Clutch with kevlar lining, DM PCV plate, DM stage 1 OCC, EcoBoost oil pump
Soon: CS HPFP line, fix oil leak from turbo return line and some more stuff....


To think... this is suppose to be my winter car... because,

'72 AMC Javelin AMX 366 CI, 4speed 13.13 quickest 1/4 mile et so far

'12 1/2 Triumph Daytona 675R stock some how
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