Crank bolt talk ..
 

Looks like the crank bolt is a bitch ..
Some have good luck and others no so much when replacing .
Some seem to come loose..
So is it a good idea to used red/blue lock tight ?
Or will that mess with the torque / stretch ?

I think most people aren't doing the yield spec enough or at all.

Being a Torque to yield bolt I'd say the ones that come loose are due to not following proper timing instructions. Something majortiy people miss when timing these engines is the friction washers X2 which are on both ends of the timing sprocket that connects to the cams.

If you loosen the crank bolt these have to be replaced aswell and are not reuseable. This is something when missed that can cause the bolt to come loose aswell because this is the true seal to the system, These thin washers are course when brand new and allow the three different metals to mesh properly (crank pulley, Timing sprocket, Crankshaft) all made of a different type of steel. The washers sit between the pulley and sprocket and the sprocket and crankshaft.


My point is that the bolt itself won't stay tight even if torqued down properly if these washers aren't replaced. I have seen this on a few engines where timing will slip slightlyt and itll loosen the bolt up. The key thing here is once its loosed up if you don't catch it you'll need some new valves and possibly some pistons.

The big deal with this is the bolt can only be tightened down once if you fuck it up then you need a new one for good measure. I always suggest to people to get the ARP one as it can handle more of a beating and you can torque it a few degrees more than the stock bolt that and it is reusable. Make sure to use a flywheel lock if you do this method. Also wait 5-10min before doing the 90Degree turn and do that in intervals of 45 5-10min in between this will allow the bolt to cool down and properly stretch. Seen a few of these done with an impact for the 90degrees and they didn't last long.

Locktite has no play here. This is pure muscle with a keyless crankshaft. Plain and simple.


Also a word of caution I have seen one block get cracked at the TDC pin at 80degrees on the bolt. This is why I suggest using a flywheel lock instead as it can hold more and put stress on a wider area of the block to prevent cracking.

Lastly Remove the damn cram timing plate, and pulley centering bolt after the initial 70Ft/tq on the bolt. YOU WILL BREAK YOUR CAMS AND TIMING COVER IF YOU DON'T Seen this first hand. not by my doing though.

HMMM, if you are doing things that require you to remove the crank bolt it would be a good idea to have a factory shop manual, in the manual it would clearly tell you that this fastener is a ttyl = "torque to yield loss" fastener, in simple terms it is not to be reused, it can only be stretched once, what is what you do when you torque it.
A smart guy, who removed this bolt, which has to be replaced would probably look to an alternative, say an ARP replacement, which btw can be reused/re-torqued....no lock tite us supped to be used, thin layer of oil, torque to @70ftlbs, wait 5-10 minute to let the bolt stretch, then another 30 degrees from that point, wait 5-10 minutes for stretch, another 30 degrees....it is a multi step torque proceddure that is ultimately supposed to end up 90 degrees past 70ftlbs.....this while you have locked and pined the cams in place so you do not lose timming position.

ill never understand why ford didnt just use a keyed crankshaft. when i was in tech school a guy left a breaker bar on the crank bolt and started the engine...needless to say the head was rebuild later on in the year lol

This is not ENTIRELY true. I have taken my personal motor apart and re-used that same crank bolt each time as well as the washers and NO loctite other than the last time i did it and i have not had a problem with the bolt backing out of any motor that i have built. Also can you show me where it is torque to yield as i was not able to find that in the manual any where.... That the reason why i have continued to re-use my bolt..

DISCLAIMER.. If you deside to re-use your bolt based souly on what MY experience has been then shame on you if you do it wrong and it doesn't work. i have built several motors and reused the bolt and have not had this problem.

Like i have said many times before MAKE SURE YOU DO THE EXTRA 90o if not go to 100-110o past the specified torque in the manual.. loctite if you want that EXTRA peace of mind security..

Meh if you decide to reuse it plain and simple you need to measure it to check that it is within tolerances.

FYI using an ARP replacement the most I have been able to get past 70ftlbs is about 40, I took an hour to get there btw, and you risk snapping the sst crank pin and the 10mm hub bolt through the front cover....ideally you want to be able to lock the flywheel but that ain't always practical, requires the transmission to be off.

Cosworth used to make a keyed sprocket but they quite making them, require edm to key the oe one, it cannot be keyed using a brooch bit because it is case hardened and even if you did the surface is the only thing hardened, you would weaken the integrity of the underlying metal.

This is entirely more complicated than I would have imagined.

Well here is the deal, the sprocket that is mount on the crank that drives the cams is not keyed, it is held in place by all things....FRICTION, if that bastard ever came lose the valves and pistons would collide, that is why I 'am kind of adamnat about it and would hate to see somebody fuck there shit up.

found this with a quick google search. it says the crankshaft would need to be machined but if youre building a motor it would be a worthwhile safeguard
Cosworth Keyed Crankshaft Sprocket (Ford Duratec / Mazda MZR (2.0/2.3L)) [COS-YD EDO Performance

i agree and you should be as well as everyone else that builds a motor....

Shit man what happened to just putting it on to XX ft lbs this shit sounds like an elaborate precedure. I just ordered a new one because you fucks scared me, and now @pinkcheese is telling me when I remove the bolt it effects the shit in the head too and I need new washers WTF is really going on. I'm just going to see what all data has to say about this.

Meh I never used washers for the cams, I know the ones he is talking about though, diamond hazed friction washer, Pinky has a way of finding things that fail, ie he did the bsd and the stupid rubber orin failed on him and he spun a bearing because he lost oil pressure....hence why we weld that port fucking shut now when we build our engines.

If the crank was keyed there would be absolutely nothing to worry about....new gen mazda have the crank keyed, we got fucked.

This is going to sound dumb, but I knew I was fucked when I took the crank pulley off, and noticed no key way.

the procedure is somewhat time consuming and you want to make sure you do it right the first time lol.
1.a.disconnect the battery
b.drain the oil
2.remove the coil packs and spark plugs
3.remove the valve cover
4. lift the front end of the car supported by jack stands
5.insert a long 1/4" socket extension throught the no.1 spark plug port GENTLY!
6.remove the service port located by where the slip shaft and passenger side shaft meet
7. thread the crank peg service tool sst into this port
8.put the transmission into a high gear and slowy rotate it clockwise, you are rotating the crankshaft by doing this*
9.pay attention to that socket extension you put into the NO.1 spark plug port, it should start to rise indicating the position of the stroke of this piston, you want to stop at the highest point before it begans to fall, this is top dead center.
10. at the back of the camshafts (opposite of the chain sprockets) there will be slots, this slots should both perpendicular on both camshafts, you insert the locking bar into these slots to isolate the camshaft's position
11. 6mmx1.00 bolt through the little hole in the crank pulley(which should be at the 6oclock position and screw it into the timing cover)
12. fun part, it is time to test if your impact wrench has balls, use an impact is mandatory, sure you may be able to muscle this bolt loose but you will most likely snap the sst crank peg in the process, consider yourself warned
13.remove the bolt and spacer, install the new fastener be it a new oem one or the arp upgrade, aply red max strength thread lock, torque to 78ftlbs, then turn an additional 90 degrees(1/4 turn)
14. you are done, make sure to remove the crank peg sst, remove the 6mmx1.00 bolt through the little hole in the crank pulley and remove camshaft locking plate and replace the service port blank, follow reverse order, take your time and recheck everything is reinstalled correctly.
http://focus.c-f-m.com/ProductImages/cfm-cmtl.jpg

Buy a new gen crank then

Different stroke, different rods....but yeah in retrospect would have but I built the engine in 09

Ohhh got ya. I built mine middle of 2010

This is very true, All precaution that I have taken is due to something failing previously or I have learned from others mistakes. Heed my WArnings this shit likes to fail epically. People should listen more to experience. All data will tell you the same thing I am. replace everything, The TTY bolt pref with ARP, and the friction washers all 4 of them if you have to break your cams loose.

To the guy who is reusing his crank bolt and washers your shit is a ticking time bomb. When these engines spin they can really do some damage especially to those who don't have extended valve reliefs in their pistons only thing that save my valve train.


This is what can happen when you spin timing your oil pump turns into a riffled gun, shot the bolt at the valve cover shattered it into 3 pieces and fractured the entire piece. Bolt was torqued to factory spec.
http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphot...7_640885_n.jpg

So the gen 2 ms3 has a keyed cp? I could never understand when manufactures start changing thing that have worked well for a long time. I remember when my impreza needed new ball joints. When we went to replace them we found that subaru uses a different design than normal were the ball joint nut is on the top. Any other car I have worked on it has been on the bottom. It was a bitch to get off. We called a local dealer and found that subaru Makes a special tool to do the job.

when installing the crank bolt..
should it be lubed ? ( with what )

If the arp crank bolt is TTY, how is it reusable?

Tokay444- you do your VVT stuff yet ?

No, gonna get the dcr, and now the crank washers.
May as well do it all. Then I'll probably tell Mazda that I know the job is only 7 hours, not ten, like they tried to quote me, and I have all the parts.
Originally, I was only doing the chain and tensioner.
I don't think my impact gun can handle this job from the start.

Great thread.

There's actually 3 washers on the crank, on all sides of both sprockets.

I don't have much to say other than what has been said already. These guys know their shit.

So you weld prior to all the machine work i take it. Hmm... i'm tempted to do the same. Only thing that makes me leery about welding on the block is warpage. But i think if it were done prior to machine work, it could be decked if warped.

Not horrible idea though.

There are only 2 friction washers on the crankshaft itself. one on eachside of the sprocket. 2 more for the cams one on each. Aslong as you check the block and do it before machine work then you should be fine. I didn't have to get any decking done to the block. Also while you are in there consider getting the rod bearings and main bearings pinned.

Not trying to play games or anything, but there are 3 on the crank. 2 sprockets (oil and timing), so that's 1 on outside of both sprockets, and one in between them, for a total of 3.

What does pinning bearings mean? I'll google now.

Here's you can see the 3 washers in this pic from the manual:

http://i359.photobucket.com/albums/o...Sprockets2.jpg

1 on each outside, and 1 in between for a total of 3.

Oh woah that is a fail design! I thought 2 where bad. I don't see why they switched over to a 3 washer design for the speeds. When I had a chat with a few of the service people at a mazda dealer we cross referenced part numbers and it showed up as the sprocket for the MS3 and MZ3 where the same part #. What year engine are you building? also any chance you could get ID measurements of that sprocket for me so I can crossreference with the ones I have here to varify that the cosworth ones can be used for a keyway for you guys?

Don't want to steer anyone with the wrong information.

Engine is the same in all speeds.

But napa tried to say if have two belts.
Acsessory and A/C.

That's the manual for the mazdaspeed6 (2006-2007). I have a motor out of another 6 i'm building right now, and i can run over and measure the sprockets if you want.

I'll tell you this though, the 2.3 duratech rod bearings are waaaay smaller than the ms6 bearings. Not sure if that gives you an indication of sprocket diameter.


Also, on the keyway... cause i really want to try this out on this new motor, is there any reason the machinist can just do it himself? Like key the oem sprockets, groove the crank, and make a key himself? I don't see why it would be all that risky, but i'm still noob on this shit.


Did you tell them they were stupid and you actually had 3? The acc belt, AC belt, and pantalones belt (with suspender mod).

Nothing TTY is reusable.........but if people want to do reuse TTY fasteners that's at their own risk. It would just suck to have that in the back of your head after you rebuild it the whole time worrying about if shits going to fail because you didn't do it right.

.

.

Dj you'd have to key the pulley too so that all is aligned properly at TDC, then it would also make sense to do the cams as well otherwise what's the point?
Sure having something driving the timing chain other than friction is a bonus, but the key is mostly for alignment.

Never heard of people keying cams, but it makes sense. But i think since the crank bolt carries the load of both cams, it's most likely to slip.

And yeah, you'd definitely want to key the pully, but that's just as simple i would think.

The hardest part I could see would be having it all align at tdc

The crank journal's for the speed 3 are larger, yes but this shouldn't be any indication as to if the snout is the same size or not sense they tapper off and the snout is smaller for both the speeds and the duratecs.

My machinest requires me to mock up the crankshaft sprocket and pulley and mark on the pulley and snout of the crankshaft in two locations for timing mark reference. Because he doesn't want liability for it if its off. The only thing that matters is that the pulley and the crankshaft both align properly for TDC. I have a picture of this and the notches I did in the pulley for the machinest.

The sprocekt itself is made of hardended steel which cannot be cut by a regular broaching bit. Cosworth and companies like them produces these sprockets with a keyway in them before they go through a hardening process. It is extremely difficult to cut a hardened steel I could only find one machinest that would do it and paying cosworth for the sprocket was about half the cost the machinest would have charged to cut the sprocket.

Yes when you get a chance please take a ID measurement of that sprocket for me.

Good info pinky. I'll bring calipers home tonight and get a quick measurement.


Even more reason to just key the crank... then at least you can loosen the exh cam gear to get things to line up right.

To bad you guys have that HPFP I found a european company who produce race cams for the duratecs that are pinned that combined with a keyed crankshaft and you really have something built for some high power.

If both cams and the crank were all keyed..... wouldn't you get some slop between the cam gears if the chain stretched a bit?

The fact that out cams aren't does nothing to make up any chain stretch in our app.

Touchè

I know you see what I'm saying.
It's the tensioners job to take up any slack, but if it can't, it would be the same for pinned and non pinned cams. It's not like our non pinned ones are floating/self adjusting.
Stretching a chain just plain sucks for all involved.
I need to get the dcr and do mine.
I really don't want to though.

the ARP crank bolt is not ttyl, you can reuse and retorque the shit out of it, and wtf the ms3 has 2 separate sprockets, reg mzr has a one piece dual sprocket....yeah most definitely shitty engineering

But with the arp bolt you follow the same TTY procedure?

Yes you follow the same torque proceedures as stated in the factory manual, but do not be alarmed when you can not get the full 90 degrees beyond the inital ftlbs, the arp crank bolt is a stout mother fucker compare to the oem ttyl crank fastener, the most I was able to get was 40 degrees

Guess what....remember when I said cosworth stopped making keyed sprockets, well I guess they started making them again although they are charging twice as much as they used to, just bought one, I'll use it on my second engine I' am building.

The amount of force required for the ARP bolt to reach that 90 should only be done with a flywheel lock and the engine on the ground not a stand. otherwise do as tobasco did and do the 40 degrees. IT is a very stout bolt and can and will break the SST pin or an engine stand if you try and force it to the full 90degrees without the above mentioned procedure.


For those doing the keyway I just torque mine down to 155ft/lbs and call it a day. Had a nice talk with a ARP tech about this and with a keyed crankshaft there is no need for all that torque anymore. I haven't had a problem with it yet and have retorqued it atleast 6 times sense the initial use.


Disclaimer: anything done outside of the mazda OEM service manual with non standard factory equipment is done at your own risk.

Hahaha.
That goes for YOU big turbo DJ.

Lol, what?

Maybe i missed something.




I failed at measuring the I.D. of the sprocket. Ended up working late, and then had to run home to fab a dump tube for a 20g mr2. I won't have time to swing by my mom's house (where the sprockets are) tonight either, but i have a spare motor in my garage at my house.... so i'll pull the crank pulley and measure the crank shaft.

You missed the disclaimer right before my post apparently.
Doing things outside the manual(like big turbo) are done at own risk

Lol, i kinda thought that was it.

Im about to goto the storage unit to ship some parts, i have a pully and crank that I can measure. You guys just need the id and od?

Yup, I.D. of the crank sprockets. Might not hurt to get a tooth count too i guess... but i sincerely doubt that would be any different.

Just take a pic with your phone and the micrometers :)

You got it.

Here ya go

Any reason why I couldn't use a gen2 short block on a gen1? This thing with the key on the crank pulley is the only difference I've seen so far.

A new gen2 short block for $2160 is really not so bad. And it's $300 LESS than a gen1. shuuu. wtf.

MS3 DISI engine regardless of gen 1 or 2 are the exact same I' am like almost 100% sure of this, now the mzr engines- gen2 are what was changed radically, keyed forge crankshaft, rotating assembly is still cheap ass cast crap, the stroke was increased to go from 2.3 to 2.5 displacement, so different crank throw (longer) and longer rods.

I do not think you disi guys would have anything to gain from taking ms3 gen2 engine parts cause they are the same, the chasis platform represent the difference between gen 1 and 2 for your cars

Side note I think it is fucking horseshit that import mags do buyers guides and rate the ms3 head and shoulder above all else in the fwd catergory ie dsport in particular yet they turn their noses up at them, sick and fucking tired of reading about feature honda eg and dg's.

MSF takes way too long to show attached pics when i click em... i just measured the diameter on the block in my garage, with ghetto ass measuring tape... and it was right at one inch.

Is that what your dial shows marcus?


Hahaha, yeah, i thought that article was funny two. Huge spread on the ms3.

wish i read this thread before i blew up my valves but awesome disscussion

awesome knowledge to add to the bank

ID is 1.044"
OD is 1.046"

2 thou clearance?
Seems like a lot.

Its about what I expected, after torquing that bolt down I dont think it makes a difference.

Do you have a part # for the ARP replacement bolt for the speed3?

I would call ARP directly and ask them .....but I 'm pretty sure it would be the same as the mzr...meh still call to verify http://www.c-f-m.com/productimages/thumb/2512501.jpg part no.251-2501

http://static.summitracing.com/globa...234-2503_w.jpg http://www.summitracing.com/parts/AR...2501/?rtype=10

@pinkcheese

Can you confirm Marcus's measurements are either the same or different than the duratec?

Ok maybe we could make a New post about this idea ..
Some guys on here have had the timming slip or bolt come loose.
I would like to know what you guys did wrong .
As in ..
Was the tourque enought
Did u do the 1/4 turn
New bolt
new washers
I would like to know wear you went wrong .
Maybe a stickey for referance on not what to do .
Just a idea ..
I think It may be time for my VVT/ chain/ tentioner to be done and I an scared as hell !

It is quite interesting that I missed this thread, and this past weekend came to the conclusion while helping tune @oldognewtriks car. The conclusion (without seeing this thread) was that the crank pulley slipped and lost timing with the crank

We will know Saturday socks. I am buying a new bolt and possibly installing the stck crank pulley instead of the aftermarket one.

Most issues arise from re-using the stock crank bolt, and / or not replacing the friction washers that go between the crank sprockets.... as well as not torquing properly.

As long as you do it right, you shouldn't have issues imo.

thanks DJ..

Sorry been a little MIA lately

Duratec measurements off a spare 2.3L sprocket I have/

I.D. 1.047"
O.D. 1.484"

taken with a digital micrometer.

O.D's are off quite a bit.... how is that possible? Or was it supposed to be 1.048, pink?

There is no way thats right, the crank i measured off of had some surface rust on the snout so it nay be a couple thousandths off.

These are sprocket dimensions. I do not have a spare crank to measure.

Ohhh you measured the outside part of the sprocket not the crank. Mine was 1.455 but I dont think that is a critical measurement.

At this point... i guess it's safe to say the keyed products from cosworth would indeed work on the DISI MZR's.... eh?

If they have the same amount of teeth, pitch and pressure angle.

The Cosworth is a 19 teeth sprocket and a 38 teeth cam gear with a 8 MM chain.

I have to run to my mum's house in a bit, and that's where i have a tore down motor. I'll bring my calipers with me, and snap a few pics.

Looks like we have a 40 tooth cam gear:

http://i359.photobucket.com/albums/o...1-30093030.jpg


And 0.162" (4.12mm) cam gear width:

http://i359.photobucket.com/albums/o...1-30094057.jpg


0.19" (4.83mm) inner chain gap:

http://i359.photobucket.com/albums/o...1-30094240.jpg


0.451" (11.46mm) outter chain (including a pin, i was rushed and just grabbed some quick measurements):

http://i359.photobucket.com/albums/o...1-30094136.jpg




And for giggles, here's my crank sprocket I.D., 1.048" (26.63mm), and it's a 20 tooth sprocket (i think this could possibly be the oil chain sprocket, so i'll double check next time i'm over there... again i was rushed):

http://i359.photobucket.com/albums/o...1-30094018.jpg


And since the DISI crank sprockets are 2 piece, where the duratec are 1 piece, here's our spacing, 0.601" (15.26mm):

http://i359.photobucket.com/albums/o...1-30093927.jpg


Overall combined crank sprockets depth, 0.9315" (23.66mm), eye balled, but accurate enough IMO (also, no friction washers between sprockets for the hair splitters out there):

http://i359.photobucket.com/albums/o...1-30093728.jpg

http://img839.imageshack.us/img839/823/010lu.jpg
http://img607.imageshack.us/img607/9215/012pen.jpg
http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/2923/013wfl.jpg
http://img825.imageshack.us/img825/1486/014dqa.jpg

the basic dimension are close but look at the teeth, looks to be a different profile, pitch and depth.
cos=cosworth part fyi
the disi cam chain teeth, assuming that I'am talking about the right ones seems to be of a lesser width, 4.83@ this one is cos: 4.93@
oil pump tooth width is cos: 2.74
overall sprocket depth is cos: .933mm versus .9315/but you didn't include the washer/spacer, so I would assume the 2 to be of the same depth

inside diameter cos: 1.043 disi: 1.048

Fuck the bottom line should be to use new washers and either use a reuseable arp crank bolt or a new ttyl bolt whenever install the crankshaft.....and follow the torque proceddure exactly, I have never heard of a untampered engine lossing timing postion....si it comes down to procedure and protocol, be patient, take your time and insure you do it right....people get in a rush, we all do I, understand this, we take things for granted as not being so critical when they turn out to be very critical.

so i want to be clear, then finding TDC the peg just sits on a flat spot of the counterweight?

Then some people once locating tdc will swap it out with a steel bolt then follow correct torque procedures?

I do find it strange that many people have so many problems. Im just gonna overtorque mine some if i ever have to do it.

P.S. i work for bmw, all new bmw and mini engines are keyless sprockets as well. Although our torque seems to be much much higher. IIRC the spec on the new gen 6 cylinder is like 50nm and 360degrees, it takes about all you got with a 24 inch ratchet.
Older bmw keyed crank bolts are still 410nm, around 310ft lbs. None of theses have any fancy crush washers either. Just FYI

Correct

and correct

BUMP for ARP MZR crank bolt/washer part # . :flowers1:

I am going to say it's 251-2501, unless it's not listed in their catalog.
I think this is the most adequate crank bolt that would fit our crank.
207-2501 might fit too. It's just a lil shorter.
That's what she said.

Good grief every time I do crank bolt I do it different and doubt my methods I got some people saying it is 75ftlb then two 90degree turns not just, one

I just want this fucking thing tight the fsm is not clear

The manual is clear: 70.9-76.7 ft-lbf, then 87°-93°. Some people do two 45° turns instead of one 90° turn, but that's not in the manual.

Right there with you. Slipped timing twice on this build and looking for any way on earth I can keep it this time.

This time I'll probably just tq the ARP bolt till my arms give out and use ARP bolts for the cams too.

Also all new friction washers obviously and actually bought new sprockets and a timing chain this time as well

I have only slipped once but it was lack of loc tite on bolt (none) and doesn't backed out

The biggest mistake I have seen is that people don't ensure the mating surfaces on the crankshaft and oil pump / timing gears are absolutely dust and oil free. Clean the bejeesus out of them with brake cleaner, and be sure not to touch them with your bare fingers. Use clean latex / nitrile disposable gloves. Don't touch the faces of the friction washers; only the ends. Do the same with the cam bolts and washers.

I've timed / helped time at least a half dozen engines without a single slipping issue, but I have to admit I've never done it on an engine pushing over 500WHp.

I did clean the sockets and crank nose with break cleaner for better friction

Last time I did 90 ft lb and like 100 degree turn

I cleaned everything pretty well, but could probably go even further, and if my new sprockets get here before the weekend, I'll be doing exactly this on Saturday.

I have timed the motor 6-7 times so far and have only ever had issues since I've had stiffer valve springs in. I was making a ton more power before too, so I can only chalk the difference up to the springs and just hope that with one more reeeeally meticulous assembly, I'll be able to provide just enough more clamping force to hold it all together.

This last time you may have definitely stretched the bolt too far. I know someone else just recently pulled the bolt to retime the motor and found his bolt was stretched.

I did not have issues with timing it held the only time I ever slipped it's when we did not loctite the bolt

Talk to @SilverDemon; if I remember correctly he used some sort of loc-tite -ish stuff on his crank washers as a safety measure.

I don't know if you guys are using the OE crank bolt or the ARP one (as we are in a thread discussing the ARP crank bolt), but the OE crank bolt is meant to stretch, and IMHO should never be reused. Sorry if I'm telling you both things you already know well; just wanted to be clear.

Yep I've talked to Scott about that and have actually used the same Loctite, but did not realize until afterword there was a primer I was supposed to use first, and I think he snugged his stuff up, then let it cure overnight which of course I didn't do either, so that coulda fucked me too. Just didn't realize I needed all those steps involved, but now I do. I also could have worn gloves and I'm sure gotten things even cleaner, which I will make sure and be crazy strict with this time.

I've always used the stock bolt and replaced that and the washers every time, though I did order an ARP bolt this time, now that more info has come out on it, I believe it should hold at LEAST as well as the stock bolt.

With all this taken into account I'm really hoping I can get things to hold while I work on getting everything keyed over the winter.

Yes, I used Loctite 680.

I cleaned the entire assembly like I was going to use the parts to eat with, primed the components, applied a very thin film to the surfaces of the washers. There is a procedure that Loctite recommends for applying primer and the actual loctite itself, iirc, primer goes on one part and the loctite goes on the other.

Assembled everything with the motor in time with the old bolt just to put some pressure on the assembly, and then let it sit overnight. I then pulled the old bolt out, cleaned the threads in the crank, cleaned the bolt and applied the ARP lube (I am running OEM bolt). Very smoothly and in one motion torqued it to 75 ft lbs. <-------this is a very important part of a torquing procedure, do not just snap the wrench fast and hard to get the "click" The wrench has to be turned in a very methodical, slow movement, anything other than that and the torque value will be off, by a large margin.

Marked the bolt and the pulley for a reference point of start and end. Then, again in one smooth motion I turned the bolt the 90°....well, as close as I could get to 90, it was closer to 80 - 85. I was also holding the crank pulley with a spanner wrench I made, and that was being held by a bottle jack.

Does the manual call for the Oem bolt to be lubed?
That will also affect torque.

And you took all the timing tools out when you turned the 90* right? That's in then, manual.

I don't think it calls for it on the factory bolt, but not 100% sure.

I am going to use the ARP bolt this time though, and follow everything I've seen on the keyless LS motors, which is some red loctite on the threads, then ARP Ultra Tq. under the bolt head and washer.

As far as tq sequence goes, still not set yet on whether I'm going to follow the stock bolt tq sequence and just see how much angle I can get after the 70lbs, or if I'll just shoot for a tq number. I know the LS guys tq their bolt to 250-265lbs, though there seems to be no real real answer from ARP on what the actual tq should be (so it's not just us they dick around with tq reccomendations). Also, we don't use the same bolt, but from what everyone has said in multiple threads here, I think it should hold up to essentially the same tq numbers. Idk we'll see.

I feel like we've talked about this:

http://www.mazdaspeedforums.org/foru...sy-fix-133834/

Torque and stretch and whatnot

Oh yes we have. And then we've talked about it some more hhaha. This is all I've been doing all week is going through timing threads. The problem is, as much evidence as we have, we still do not have that one, single, conclusive blueprint for what will give us the absolute best possible clamp to hold timing. Lot's of data out there now and lots of "I think this caused it to slip" or "That should definitely hold everything if you do it this way" , but honestly just not one agreed upon, concrete approach.

I'm just taking everything I've read and discussed with tons of different people and trying every combination and permutation of those theories until I find one that works.