Fuck the bottom line should be to use new washers and either use a reuseable arp crank bolt or a new ttyl bolt whenever install the crankshaft.....and follow the torque proceddure exactly, I have never heard of a untampered engine lossing timing postion....si it comes down to procedure and protocol, be patient, take your time and insure you do it right....people get in a rush, we all do I, understand this, we take things for granted as not being so critical when they turn out to be very critical.

so i want to be clear, then finding TDC the peg just sits on a flat spot of the counterweight?

Then some people once locating tdc will swap it out with a steel bolt then follow correct torque procedures?

I do find it strange that many people have so many problems. Im just gonna overtorque mine some if i ever have to do it.

P.S. i work for bmw, all new bmw and mini engines are keyless sprockets as well. Although our torque seems to be much much higher. IIRC the spec on the new gen 6 cylinder is like 50nm and 360degrees, it takes about all you got with a 24 inch ratchet.
Older bmw keyed crank bolts are still 410nm, around 310ft lbs. None of theses have any fancy crush washers either. Just FYI

Correct

and correct

BUMP for ARP MZR crank bolt/washer part # . :flowers1:

I am going to say it's 251-2501, unless it's not listed in their catalog.
I think this is the most adequate crank bolt that would fit our crank.
207-2501 might fit too. It's just a lil shorter.
That's what she said.

Good grief every time I do crank bolt I do it different and doubt my methods I got some people saying it is 75ftlb then two 90degree turns not just, one

I just want this fucking thing tight the fsm is not clear

The manual is clear: 70.9-76.7 ft-lbf, then 87°-93°. Some people do two 45° turns instead of one 90° turn, but that's not in the manual.

Right there with you. Slipped timing twice on this build and looking for any way on earth I can keep it this time.

This time I'll probably just tq the ARP bolt till my arms give out and use ARP bolts for the cams too.

Also all new friction washers obviously and actually bought new sprockets and a timing chain this time as well

I have only slipped once but it was lack of loc tite on bolt (none) and doesn't backed out

The biggest mistake I have seen is that people don't ensure the mating surfaces on the crankshaft and oil pump / timing gears are absolutely dust and oil free. Clean the bejeesus out of them with brake cleaner, and be sure not to touch them with your bare fingers. Use clean latex / nitrile disposable gloves. Don't touch the faces of the friction washers; only the ends. Do the same with the cam bolts and washers.

I've timed / helped time at least a half dozen engines without a single slipping issue, but I have to admit I've never done it on an engine pushing over 500WHp.

I did clean the sockets and crank nose with break cleaner for better friction

Last time I did 90 ft lb and like 100 degree turn

I cleaned everything pretty well, but could probably go even further, and if my new sprockets get here before the weekend, I'll be doing exactly this on Saturday.

I have timed the motor 6-7 times so far and have only ever had issues since I've had stiffer valve springs in. I was making a ton more power before too, so I can only chalk the difference up to the springs and just hope that with one more reeeeally meticulous assembly, I'll be able to provide just enough more clamping force to hold it all together.

This last time you may have definitely stretched the bolt too far. I know someone else just recently pulled the bolt to retime the motor and found his bolt was stretched.

I did not have issues with timing it held the only time I ever slipped it's when we did not loctite the bolt

Talk to @SilverDemon; if I remember correctly he used some sort of loc-tite -ish stuff on his crank washers as a safety measure.

I don't know if you guys are using the OE crank bolt or the ARP one (as we are in a thread discussing the ARP crank bolt), but the OE crank bolt is meant to stretch, and IMHO should never be reused. Sorry if I'm telling you both things you already know well; just wanted to be clear.

Yep I've talked to Scott about that and have actually used the same Loctite, but did not realize until afterword there was a primer I was supposed to use first, and I think he snugged his stuff up, then let it cure overnight which of course I didn't do either, so that coulda fucked me too. Just didn't realize I needed all those steps involved, but now I do. I also could have worn gloves and I'm sure gotten things even cleaner, which I will make sure and be crazy strict with this time.

I've always used the stock bolt and replaced that and the washers every time, though I did order an ARP bolt this time, now that more info has come out on it, I believe it should hold at LEAST as well as the stock bolt.

With all this taken into account I'm really hoping I can get things to hold while I work on getting everything keyed over the winter.

Yes, I used Loctite 680.

I cleaned the entire assembly like I was going to use the parts to eat with, primed the components, applied a very thin film to the surfaces of the washers. There is a procedure that Loctite recommends for applying primer and the actual loctite itself, iirc, primer goes on one part and the loctite goes on the other.

Assembled everything with the motor in time with the old bolt just to put some pressure on the assembly, and then let it sit overnight. I then pulled the old bolt out, cleaned the threads in the crank, cleaned the bolt and applied the ARP lube (I am running OEM bolt). Very smoothly and in one motion torqued it to 75 ft lbs. <-------this is a very important part of a torquing procedure, do not just snap the wrench fast and hard to get the "click" The wrench has to be turned in a very methodical, slow movement, anything other than that and the torque value will be off, by a large margin.

Marked the bolt and the pulley for a reference point of start and end. Then, again in one smooth motion I turned the bolt the 90°....well, as close as I could get to 90, it was closer to 80 - 85. I was also holding the crank pulley with a spanner wrench I made, and that was being held by a bottle jack.

Does the manual call for the Oem bolt to be lubed?
That will also affect torque.

And you took all the timing tools out when you turned the 90* right? That's in then, manual.

I don't think it calls for it on the factory bolt, but not 100% sure.

I am going to use the ARP bolt this time though, and follow everything I've seen on the keyless LS motors, which is some red loctite on the threads, then ARP Ultra Tq. under the bolt head and washer.

As far as tq sequence goes, still not set yet on whether I'm going to follow the stock bolt tq sequence and just see how much angle I can get after the 70lbs, or if I'll just shoot for a tq number. I know the LS guys tq their bolt to 250-265lbs, though there seems to be no real real answer from ARP on what the actual tq should be (so it's not just us they dick around with tq reccomendations). Also, we don't use the same bolt, but from what everyone has said in multiple threads here, I think it should hold up to essentially the same tq numbers. Idk we'll see.

I feel like we've talked about this:

http://www.mazdaspeedforums.org/foru...sy-fix-133834/

Torque and stretch and whatnot

Oh yes we have. And then we've talked about it some more hhaha. This is all I've been doing all week is going through timing threads. The problem is, as much evidence as we have, we still do not have that one, single, conclusive blueprint for what will give us the absolute best possible clamp to hold timing. Lot's of data out there now and lots of "I think this caused it to slip" or "That should definitely hold everything if you do it this way" , but honestly just not one agreed upon, concrete approach.

I'm just taking everything I've read and discussed with tons of different people and trying every combination and permutation of those theories until I find one that works.

Fwiw using an arp bolt I just torqued 85 ft lb on crank pulley then 90 and another 45. I don't know how much torque that is but I never want to slip

I did basically the same thing two years ago with oem bolt and never had the crank slip and I ran the shit out of my car before turbo took A shit

I wouldn't advise that at all.

If I get the Cosworth Keyed Crankshaft Sprocket, I wouldn't have to get my crankshaft "keyed"? I'm in the process of looking for a machine shop to build my motor but I'm so confused on this whole keyed crank and not sure if it can be done by any machine shop. Any advice is greatly appreciated.

This sprokets don't fit our chain, and you'd still need to cut a key seat in the crank.