Crank bolt talk ..

[jracer]

Looks like the crank bolt is a bitch ..
Some have good luck and others no so much when replacing .
Some seem to come loose..
So is it a good idea to used red/blue lock tight ?
Or will that mess with the torque / stretch ?

[kmac]

I think most people aren't doing the yield spec enough or at all.

[pinkcheese]

Being a Torque to yield bolt I'd say the ones that come loose are due to not following proper timing instructions. Something majortiy people miss when timing these engines is the friction washers X2 which are on both ends of the timing sprocket that connects to the cams.

If you loosen the crank bolt these have to be replaced aswell and are not reuseable. This is something when missed that can cause the bolt to come loose aswell because this is the true seal to the system, These thin washers are course when brand new and allow the three different metals to mesh properly (crank pulley, Timing sprocket, Crankshaft) all made of a different type of steel. The washers sit between the pulley and sprocket and the sprocket and crankshaft.


My point is that the bolt itself won't stay tight even if torqued down properly if these washers aren't replaced. I have seen this on a few engines where timing will slip slightlyt and itll loosen the bolt up. The key thing here is once its loosed up if you don't catch it you'll need some new valves and possibly some pistons.

The big deal with this is the bolt can only be tightened down once if you fuck it up then you need a new one for good measure. I always suggest to people to get the ARP one as it can handle more of a beating and you can torque it a few degrees more than the stock bolt that and it is reusable. Make sure to use a flywheel lock if you do this method. Also wait 5-10min before doing the 90Degree turn and do that in intervals of 45 5-10min in between this will allow the bolt to cool down and properly stretch. Seen a few of these done with an impact for the 90degrees and they didn't last long.

Locktite has no play here. This is pure muscle with a keyless crankshaft. Plain and simple.


Also a word of caution I have seen one block get cracked at the TDC pin at 80degrees on the bolt. This is why I suggest using a flywheel lock instead as it can hold more and put stress on a wider area of the block to prevent cracking.

Lastly Remove the damn cram timing plate, and pulley centering bolt after the initial 70Ft/tq on the bolt. YOU WILL BREAK YOUR CAMS AND TIMING COVER IF YOU DON'T Seen this first hand. not by my doing though.

[Tabasco69]

HMMM, if you are doing things that require you to remove the crank bolt it would be a good idea to have a factory shop manual, in the manual it would clearly tell you that this fastener is a ttyl = "torque to yield loss" fastener, in simple terms it is not to be reused, it can only be stretched once, what is what you do when you torque it.
A smart guy, who removed this bolt, which has to be replaced would probably look to an alternative, say an ARP replacement, which btw can be reused/re-torqued....no lock tite us supped to be used, thin layer of oil, torque to @70ftlbs, wait 5-10 minute to let the bolt stretch, then another 30 degrees from that point, wait 5-10 minutes for stretch, another 30 degrees....it is a multi step torque proceddure that is ultimately supposed to end up 90 degrees past 70ftlbs.....this while you have locked and pined the cams in place so you do not lose timming position.

[chuckms6]

ill never understand why ford didnt just use a keyed crankshaft. when i was in tech school a guy left a breaker bar on the crank bolt and started the engine...needless to say the head was rebuild later on in the year lol

[qtrmile beast]

Originally Posted by pinkcheese My point is that the bolt itself won't stay tight even if torqued down properly if these washers aren't replaced. I have seen this on a few engines where timing will slip slightlyt and itll loosen the bolt up. The key thing here is once its loosed up if you don't catch it you'll need some new valves and possibly some pistons.

This is not ENTIRELY true. I have taken my personal motor apart and re-used that same crank bolt each time as well as the washers and NO loctite other than the last time i did it and i have not had a problem with the bolt backing out of any motor that i have built. Also can you show me where it is torque to yield as i was not able to find that in the manual any where.... That the reason why i have continued to re-use my bolt..

DISCLAIMER.. If you deside to re-use your bolt based souly on what MY experience has been then shame on you if you do it wrong and it doesn't work. i have built several motors and reused the bolt and have not had this problem.

Like i have said many times before MAKE SURE YOU DO THE EXTRA 90o if not go to 100-110o past the specified torque in the manual.. loctite if you want that EXTRA peace of mind security..

[Tabasco69]

Meh if you decide to reuse it plain and simple you need to measure it to check that it is within tolerances.

FYI using an ARP replacement the most I have been able to get past 70ftlbs is about 40, I took an hour to get there btw, and you risk snapping the sst crank pin and the 10mm hub bolt through the front cover....ideally you want to be able to lock the flywheel but that ain't always practical, requires the transmission to be off.

Cosworth used to make a keyed sprocket but they quite making them, require edm to key the oe one, it cannot be keyed using a brooch bit because it is case hardened and even if you did the surface is the only thing hardened, you would weaken the integrity of the underlying metal.

[MSFer87]

This is entirely more complicated than I would have imagined.

[Tabasco69]

Well here is the deal, the sprocket that is mount on the crank that drives the cams is not keyed, it is held in place by all things....FRICTION, if that bastard ever came lose the valves and pistons would collide, that is why I 'am kind of adamnat about it and would hate to see somebody fuck there shit up.

[chuckms6]

found this with a quick google search. it says the crankshaft would need to be machined but if youre building a motor it would be a worthwhile safeguard
Cosworth Keyed Crankshaft Sprocket (Ford Duratec / Mazda MZR (2.0/2.3L)) [COS-YD EDO Performance

[qtrmile beast]

Originally Posted by Tabasco69 Well here is the deal, the sprocket that is mount on the crank that drives the cams is not keyed, it is held in place by all things....FRICTION, if that bastard ever came lose the valves and pistons would collide, that is why I 'am kind of adamant about it and would hate to see somebody fuck there shit up.

i agree and you should be as well as everyone else that builds a motor....

[MSFer87]

Shit man what happened to just putting it on to XX ft lbs this shit sounds like an elaborate precedure. I just ordered a new one because you fucks scared me, and now @pinkcheese is telling me when I remove the bolt it effects the shit in the head too and I need new washers WTF is really going on. I'm just going to see what all data has to say about this.

[Tabasco69]

Meh I never used washers for the cams, I know the ones he is talking about though, diamond hazed friction washer, Pinky has a way of finding things that fail, ie he did the bsd and the stupid rubber orin failed on him and he spun a bearing because he lost oil pressure....hence why we weld that port fucking shut now when we build our engines.

If the crank was keyed there would be absolutely nothing to worry about....new gen mazda have the crank keyed, we got fucked.

[MSFer87]

This is going to sound dumb, but I knew I was fucked when I took the crank pulley off, and noticed no key way.

[Tabasco69]

the procedure is somewhat time consuming and you want to make sure you do it right the first time lol.
1.a.disconnect the battery
b.drain the oil
2.remove the coil packs and spark plugs
3.remove the valve cover
4. lift the front end of the car supported by jack stands
5.insert a long 1/4" socket extension throught the no.1 spark plug port GENTLY!
6.remove the service port located by where the slip shaft and passenger side shaft meet
7. thread the crank peg service tool sst into this port
8.put the transmission into a high gear and slowy rotate it clockwise, you are rotating the crankshaft by doing this*
9.pay attention to that socket extension you put into the NO.1 spark plug port, it should start to rise indicating the position of the stroke of this piston, you want to stop at the highest point before it begans to fall, this is top dead center.
10. at the back of the camshafts (opposite of the chain sprockets) there will be slots, this slots should both perpendicular on both camshafts, you insert the locking bar into these slots to isolate the camshaft's position
11. 6mmx1.00 bolt through the little hole in the crank pulley(which should be at the 6oclock position and screw it into the timing cover)
12. fun part, it is time to test if your impact wrench has balls, use an impact is mandatory, sure you may be able to muscle this bolt loose but you will most likely snap the sst crank peg in the process, consider yourself warned
13.remove the bolt and spacer, install the new fastener be it a new oem one or the arp upgrade, aply red max strength thread lock, torque to 78ftlbs, then turn an additional 90 degrees(1/4 turn)
14. you are done, make sure to remove the crank peg sst, remove the 6mmx1.00 bolt through the little hole in the crank pulley and remove camshaft locking plate and replace the service port blank, follow reverse order, take your time and recheck everything is reinstalled correctly.

[Boosted Beluga]

Buy a new gen crank then

[Tabasco69]

Different stroke, different rods....but yeah in retrospect would have but I built the engine in 09

[Boosted Beluga]

Ohhh got ya. I built mine middle of 2010

[pinkcheese]

Originally Posted by Tabasco69 Meh I never used washers for the cams, I know the ones he is talking about though, diamond hazed friction washer, Pinky has a way of finding things that fail, ie he did the bsd and the stupid rubber orin failed on him and he spun a bearing because he lost oil pressure....hence why we weld that port fucking shut now when we build our engines. If the crank was keyed there would be absolutely nothing to worry about....new gen mazda have the crank keyed, we got fucked.

This is very true, All precaution that I have taken is due to something failing previously or I have learned from others mistakes. Heed my WArnings this shit likes to fail epically. People should listen more to experience. All data will tell you the same thing I am. replace everything, The TTY bolt pref with ARP, and the friction washers all 4 of them if you have to break your cams loose.

To the guy who is reusing his crank bolt and washers your shit is a ticking time bomb. When these engines spin they can really do some damage especially to those who don't have extended valve reliefs in their pistons only thing that save my valve train.


This is what can happen when you spin timing your oil pump turns into a riffled gun, shot the bolt at the valve cover shattered it into 3 pieces and fractured the entire piece. Bolt was torqued to factory spec.

[vrspeed10]

Originally Posted by Tabasco69 If the crank was keyed there would be absolutely nothing to worry about....new gen mazda have the crank keyed, we got fucked.

So the gen 2 ms3 has a keyed cp? I could never understand when manufactures start changing thing that have worked well for a long time. I remember when my impreza needed new ball joints. When we went to replace them we found that subaru uses a different design than normal were the ball joint nut is on the top. Any other car I have worked on it has been on the bottom. It was a bitch to get off. We called a local dealer and found that subaru Makes a special tool to do the job.

[jracer]

when installing the crank bolt..
should it be lubed ? ( with what )

[Tokay444]

If the arp crank bolt is TTY, how is it reusable?

[jracer]

Tokay444- you do your VVT stuff yet ?

[Tokay444]

No, gonna get the dcr, and now the crank washers.
May as well do it all. Then I'll probably tell Mazda that I know the job is only 7 hours, not ten, like they tried to quote me, and I have all the parts.
Originally, I was only doing the chain and tensioner.
I don't think my impact gun can handle this job from the start.

[djuosnteisn]

Great thread.

Originally Posted by pinkcheese Something majortiy people miss when timing these engines is the friction washers X2 which are on both ends of the timing sprocket that connects to the cams.

There's actually 3 washers on the crank, on all sides of both sprockets.

I don't have much to say other than what has been said already. These guys know their shit.

Originally Posted by Tabasco69 ...he did the bsd and the stupid rubber orin failed on him and he spun a bearing because he lost oil pressure....hence why we weld that port fucking shut now when we build our engines.

So you weld prior to all the machine work i take it. Hmm... i'm tempted to do the same. Only thing that makes me leery about welding on the block is warpage. But i think if it were done prior to machine work, it could be decked if warped.

Not horrible idea though.

[pinkcheese]

Originally Posted by djuosnteisn Great thread. There's actually 3 washers on the crank, on all sides of both sprockets. I don't have much to say other than what has been said already. These guys know their shit. So you weld prior to all the machine work i take it. Hmm... i'm tempted to do the same. Only thing that makes me leery about welding on the block is warpage. But i think if it were done prior to machine work, it could be decked if warped. Not horrible idea though.

There are only 2 friction washers on the crankshaft itself. one on eachside of the sprocket. 2 more for the cams one on each. Aslong as you check the block and do it before machine work then you should be fine. I didn't have to get any decking done to the block. Also while you are in there consider getting the rod bearings and main bearings pinned.

[djuosnteisn]

Originally Posted by pinkcheese There are only 2 friction washers on the crankshaft itself. one on eachside of the sprocket. 2 more for the cams one on each. Aslong as you check the block and do it before machine work then you should be fine. I didn't have to get any decking done to the block. Also while you are in there consider getting the rod bearings and main bearings pinned.

Not trying to play games or anything, but there are 3 on the crank. 2 sprockets (oil and timing), so that's 1 on outside of both sprockets, and one in between them, for a total of 3.

What does pinning bearings mean? I'll google now.

Here's you can see the 3 washers in this pic from the manual:



1 on each outside, and 1 in between for a total of 3.

[pinkcheese]

Originally Posted by djuosnteisn Not trying to play games or anything, but there are 3 on the crank. 2 sprockets (oil and timing), so that's 1 on outside of both sprockets, and one in between them, for a total of 3. What does pinning bearings mean? I'll google now. Here's you can see the 3 washers in this pic from the manual: 1 on each outside, and 1 in between for a total of 3.

Oh woah that is a fail design! I thought 2 where bad. I don't see why they switched over to a 3 washer design for the speeds. When I had a chat with a few of the service people at a mazda dealer we cross referenced part numbers and it showed up as the sprocket for the MS3 and MZ3 where the same part #. What year engine are you building? also any chance you could get ID measurements of that sprocket for me so I can crossreference with the ones I have here to varify that the cosworth ones can be used for a keyway for you guys?

Don't want to steer anyone with the wrong information.

[Tokay444]

Engine is the same in all speeds.

But napa tried to say if have two belts.
Acsessory and A/C.

[djuosnteisn]

Originally Posted by pinkcheese Oh woah that is a fail design! I thought 2 where bad. I don't see why they switched over to a 3 washer design for the speeds. When I had a chat with a few of the service people at a mazda dealer we cross referenced part numbers and it showed up as the sprocket for the MS3 and MZ3 where the same part #. What year engine are you building? also any chance you could get ID measurements of that sprocket for me so I can crossreference with the ones I have here to varify that the cosworth ones can be used for a keyway for you guys? Don't want to steer anyone with the wrong information.

That's the manual for the mazdaspeed6 (2006-2007). I have a motor out of another 6 i'm building right now, and i can run over and measure the sprockets if you want.

I'll tell you this though, the 2.3 duratech rod bearings are waaaay smaller than the ms6 bearings. Not sure if that gives you an indication of sprocket diameter.


Also, on the keyway... cause i really want to try this out on this new motor, is there any reason the machinist can just do it himself? Like key the oem sprockets, groove the crank, and make a key himself? I don't see why it would be all that risky, but i'm still noob on this shit.

Originally Posted by Tokay444 Engine is the same in all speeds. But napa tried to say if have two belts. Acsessory and A/C.

Did you tell them they were stupid and you actually had 3? The acc belt, AC belt, and pantalones belt (with suspender mod).

[MSFer87]

Originally Posted by Tokay444 If the arp crank bolt is TTY, how is it reusable?

Nothing TTY is reusable.........but if people want to do reuse TTY fasteners that's at their own risk. It would just suck to have that in the back of your head after you rebuild it the whole time worrying about if shits going to fail because you didn't do it right.

[Tokay444]

Originally Posted by pinkcheese The big deal with this is the bolt can only be tightened down once if you fuck it up then you need a new one for good measure. I always suggest to people to get the ARP one as it can handle more of a beating and you can torque it a few degrees more than the stock bolt that and it is reusable. Make sure to use a flywheel lock if you do this method. Also wait 5-10min before doing the 90Degree turn and do that in intervals of 45 5-10min in between this will allow the bolt to cool down and properly stretch. Seen a few of these done with an impact for the 90degrees and they didn't last long.

.

Originally Posted by jdmoptiontune Nothing TTY is reusable.........but if people want to do reuse TTY fasteners that's at their own risk. It would just suck to have that in the back of your head after you rebuild it the whole time worrying about if shits going to fail because you didn't do it right.

.

[Tokay444]

Dj you'd have to key the pulley too so that all is aligned properly at TDC, then it would also make sense to do the cams as well otherwise what's the point?
Sure having something driving the timing chain other than friction is a bonus, but the key is mostly for alignment.

[djuosnteisn]

Originally Posted by Tokay444 Dj you'd have to key the pulley too so that all is aligned properly at TDC, then it would also make sense to do the cams as well otherwise what's the point? Sure having something driving the timing chain other than friction is a bonus, but the key is mostly for alignment.

Never heard of people keying cams, but it makes sense. But i think since the crank bolt carries the load of both cams, it's most likely to slip.

And yeah, you'd definitely want to key the pully, but that's just as simple i would think.

[Tokay444]

The hardest part I could see would be having it all align at tdc

[pinkcheese]

Originally Posted by djuosnteisn That's the manual for the mazdaspeed6 (2006-2007). I have a motor out of another 6 i'm building right now, and i can run over and measure the sprockets if you want. I'll tell you this though, the 2.3 duratech rod bearings are waaaay smaller than the ms6 bearings. Not sure if that gives you an indication of sprocket diameter. Also, on the keyway... cause i really want to try this out on this new motor, is there any reason the machinist can just do it himself? Like key the oem sprockets, groove the crank, and make a key himself? I don't see why it would be all that risky, but i'm still noob on this shit. Did you tell them they were stupid and you actually had 3? The acc belt, AC belt, and pantalones belt (with suspender mod).

The crank journal's for the speed 3 are larger, yes but this shouldn't be any indication as to if the snout is the same size or not sense they tapper off and the snout is smaller for both the speeds and the duratecs.

My machinest requires me to mock up the crankshaft sprocket and pulley and mark on the pulley and snout of the crankshaft in two locations for timing mark reference. Because he doesn't want liability for it if its off. The only thing that matters is that the pulley and the crankshaft both align properly for TDC. I have a picture of this and the notches I did in the pulley for the machinest.

The sprocekt itself is made of hardended steel which cannot be cut by a regular broaching bit. Cosworth and companies like them produces these sprockets with a keyway in them before they go through a hardening process. It is extremely difficult to cut a hardened steel I could only find one machinest that would do it and paying cosworth for the sprocket was about half the cost the machinest would have charged to cut the sprocket.

Yes when you get a chance please take a ID measurement of that sprocket for me.

[djuosnteisn]

Good info pinky. I'll bring calipers home tonight and get a quick measurement.

Originally Posted by Tokay444 The hardest part I could see would be having it all align at tdc

Even more reason to just key the crank... then at least you can loosen the exh cam gear to get things to line up right.

[pinkcheese]

To bad you guys have that HPFP I found a european company who produce race cams for the duratecs that are pinned that combined with a keyed crankshaft and you really have something built for some high power.

[djuosnteisn]

If both cams and the crank were all keyed..... wouldn't you get some slop between the cam gears if the chain stretched a bit?

[Tokay444]

The fact that out cams aren't does nothing to make up any chain stretch in our app.