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MazdaSpeed 3 - Engine, Transmission & Driveline Discussion of engine, tranny and drivelines.


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 Old 04-12-2017, 08:27 PM   #1
 
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Default Current Intake Options for a non-BT Build: JBR PP S2 vs 3.0 Options

So I've researched several intakes and opinions on them quite a bit, and I'm trying to come to terms which is better for a non-BT built.

Assume a MS3 that will be sticking with a K04 for the forseeable future. Currently has AT FP Internals, upgraded RM, but no Tune or any other upgrade.

Here are the options:
JBR Power Path Stage 2 - $250
HTP 3.0 Intake - $273 + tune required

So from what I understand, both hook DIRECTLY to the turbo, upgrading the stock Turbo Inlet system completely, correct? Furthermore, both are SRI's, but does the JBR does come closer to the front of the car. If it does, this would lower BATs, I would assume. However, the JBR is a smaller pipe, 2.67 inches or 68mm internally I believe. This means no tune is required, but it won't flow as well as the 3 inch once the tune is in later. But will that matter much on a K04? Will the better positioning of the JBR S2 offset the smaller piping? Will the smaller piping prevent any modifications to the ECU computer mount to make it fir, where the larger pipe would?

This brings me all to my final point: I can afford a $250 intake now, but I cannot afford a $750 AP & Tune on top of it. I will want to soon, but not yet. My wife's CX-5 and I both need tires, and I just did the brakes on the Speed. But I'd love to start slowly upgrading my car with things I can do pre-tune. I think this JBR S2 would be one of them, then probably a TMIC next, then OCC. By doing these first, I can have a little extra fun now, and it will cost me less when I'm ready to all out with the final remaining mods: 2nd Cat Delete or Full DP w/hi-flow, EGR Delete, Boost Controller, AP+Tune. I could wait and do everything at once, but I'd rather spread it out and start upgrades first that are fun, but won't require a tune, then re-tune.

So is the JBR Power Path a good idea for me or someone like me in a similar situation?

As an aside, I found comparisons that show adding an airbox significantly lowered BATs. Could or should I do that with either intake? Having a hard time finding boxes that match these intakes.

Thank you in advance!
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Current Performance Mods: Damond RMM, Stoptech Slotted Rotors, EBC RedStuff Pads, & AT HPFP
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Planned Mods: CS S2 Power Intake, CS TMIC, Full DP w/CAT, APv3 Freektune, EBCS, MAP 3 Bar, EGR Delete, DM OCC
Stereo Mods: Pioneer AVH4100NEX, Phoenix Gold Fronts, Focal Rears, Polk 12" in Trunk Floor Enclosure, PPI 4x125W amp driving Fronts & Sub
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 Old 04-12-2017, 08:40 PM   #2
 
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Lots of intake threads here and a ton of choices. The stock airbox is extremely restrictive. You can safely pick up about 20 wheel horsepower on the stock tune with a good after market intake that retains the standard MAF housing diameter.

Either short ram (SRI) or full length cold air intake (CAI) work well.

I chose the "official" Masdaspeed branded CAI, which is actually an AEM CAI rebranded by Mazda. it can be run either CAI or SRI mode.

Replacing the stock plastic odd shaped turbo inlet pipe does not really produce measurable gains on the K04. Despite its pancake appearance, it flows well.
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 Old 04-12-2017, 08:59 PM   #3
 
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Interested to know where you found comparisons showing lower BATs for airboxes. I've seen some that proved lower IATs but lower BATS not really... definitely not enough lower to improve pwar production. I was thinking to go airbox too but I think I'm just going to do what's easier... go E mix and then you can pretty much forget about BATs.

I wouldn't go less than 3", just because why bother spending that much for not much gains? Even though, yes, the stock sized intake will fit without messing with the ECU at all. I went 3.5" on k04 because I didn't like the idea of removing covers from the ECU so I just relocated it, at that point a 3.5" will fit. Why not gain more volumetric efficiency if you can essentially for free. I like to maximize gains vs. effort.

Ultimately the filter positioning really will not matter, so you should pretty much ignore it.

VersaTune is really the preferred tuning solution these days. So here's what I'd do... Find a group buy to glom onto for VT. Look for the hard parts on used deals to save cash on the intake, test pipe, OCC, TMIC. Skip the boost controller until/unless you delete k04 down the line. Personally I'd skip EGR delete too but whatever, that's your decision and it's cheap anyway. Anyway, just throw that all on at once, get tuned, be done with it.
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 Old 04-13-2017, 06:03 AM   #4
 
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Your over thinking this. Get a 3.5 of whatever brand you like, and be done with it....
I've had 3 different intakes, all because of poor goals and future planning. So 3.5 or bust.

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 Old 04-13-2017, 06:24 AM   #5
 
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Can you please provide the research that you found that shows an airbox SIGNIFICANTLY improving BATs. I have a hard time believing that an airbox is going to significantly decrease your BATs. Hell, even switching from a TMIC to a FMIC didn't significantly cut my BATs down. It helped but I wouldn't call it a signficant improvement. I don't doubt that there is some kind of possible improvement with am airbox but significantly is a bit hard for me to believe. If you want cooler BATs, spray meth. There are other mods that can help but in the end spraying meth is the only true way to significantly lower your BATs reliably.

I digress, I've had a CS stock sized intake, then a 3in JBR and then a CS 3.5. From a performance standpoint, there was small gain from switching over to the CS stock sized intake. Honestly, the throttle just felt more responsive and not so much a true performance gain.

The biggest bump came from going to a 3in but that was also paired with a RP so the performance gains were a bit convoluted but nonetheless I saw some minor improvements with BATs and my g/s increased a bit probably like 15% or so. The car pulled great, sounded terrific and overall a much better driving experience. Again, the intake was paired with a RP so its tough to say how much of that was intake related but the two upgrades (intake and RP) really made the car feel alive.

There wasn't a night or day difference when I jumped up to the 3.5in. I saw virtually no improvement with BATs and my g/s increased maybe 5%, if that. The 3.5 is overkill on the k04, honestly. You're going to max out the turbo before you max out the efficiency of the 3.5in intake. If you do have plans to turbo swap, I'd go 3.5 to "future proof" your intake a bit but if you're sticking with the k04, the 3in should be just fine. The nice thing about the 3in was I only had to remove the ECU cover and not relocate. I had to relocate the ECU to accommodate the 3.5in.

Just my .02 from a guy who has changed his intake more times than his underwear.
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 Old 04-13-2017, 07:02 AM   #6
 
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Originally Posted by MSMS3 View Post
Lots of intake threads here and a ton of choices. The stock airbox is extremely restrictive. You can safely pick up about 20 wheel horsepower on the stock tune with a good after market intake that retains the standard MAF housing diameter.

Either short ram (SRI) or full length cold air intake (CAI) work well.

I chose the "official" Masdaspeed branded CAI, which is actually an AEM CAI rebranded by Mazda. it can be run either CAI or SRI mode.

Replacing the stock plastic odd shaped turbo inlet pipe does not really produce measurable gains on the K04. Despite its pancake appearance, it flows well.

I didn't think the gains would be that high without tune. Mostly hoping for responsiveness, and gains once tuned along with other upgrades. I was expecting maybe 5-10HP max. Is 20 realistic?

The intakes I was looking at come with the TIP built in. I could do just a Stage 1 and leave the stock TIP, which would lower cost and make the install easier. I really want to hear the turbo w/o having to go blow off, so wouldn't an after TIP transfer more turbo noise to my ears?

I live in Florida, so no CAI for me (hydrolock...)
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 Old 04-13-2017, 07:12 AM   #7
 
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Originally Posted by aackthpt View Post
Interested to know where you found comparisons showing lower BATs for airboxes. I've seen some that proved lower IATs but lower BATS not really... definitely not enough lower to improve pwar production. I was thinking to go airbox too but I think I'm just going to do what's easier... go E mix and then you can pretty much forget about BATs.

I wouldn't go less than 3", just because why bother spending that much for not much gains? Even though, yes, the stock sized intake will fit without messing with the ECU at all. I went 3.5" on k04 because I didn't like the idea of removing covers from the ECU so I just relocated it, at that point a 3.5" will fit. Why not gain more volumetric efficiency if you can essentially for free. I like to maximize gains vs. effort.

Ultimately the filter positioning really will not matter, so you should pretty much ignore it.

VersaTune is really the preferred tuning solution these days. So here's what I'd do... Find a group buy to glom onto for VT. Look for the hard parts on used deals to save cash on the intake, test pipe, OCC, TMIC. Skip the boost controller until/unless you delete k04 down the line. Personally I'd skip EGR delete too but whatever, that's your decision and it's cheap anyway. Anyway, just throw that all on at once, get tuned, be done with it.
I saw it a month or so ago when I was comparing intercooler options as well. I will see if I can find it again. The user showed three graphs, comparing the temperatures from the stock airbox, just intake, and intake with airbox. It could have been IATs, not BATs, and I am just remembering wrong. If I can find it again, I will repost. I don't get along with the search function on this forum very well.

Also, I'm not planning meth or Ethanol mods at all. I know the gains can be huge, but I really don't want to do either to my DD.

I'm with you on not liking the idea of removing covers on ECU. Maybe I should look into relocation? Sounds like a pain, but it's probably not as bad as I'm thinking... Still, I don't think 3.5" is really necessary for me. I could relocate and do a 3.0" still and just have extra space. Even if I went BNR S3 or CS turbo down the road, probably the largest I'd go if I ever did, a 3.0 would still be fine from what I understand. I know there is a go big or go home camp, but does it REALLY provide gains? On the flipside, if I have to relocate ECU & Tune for 3.0", it'd be the exact same effort to do the 3.5", as you said. The 3.5" do cost more, but not much. But again, is it really worth it?

I had someone else tell me on my build form that if I plan on over 18psi on my K04, I'd want a boost controller, as I'd be at the top of the stock's readings, and they wouldn't be very accurate. They claimed an upgraded controller would allow the tune to hold the correct boost...

I was planning on Freaktune, but you think Versatune is better?

Originally Posted by cshunter View Post
Your over thinking this. Get a 3.5 of whatever brand you like, and be done with it....
I've had 3 different intakes, all because of poor goals and future planning. So 3.5 or bust.

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LOL, another go big or go home vote!

I had to buy 3 different RMMs because of a major rattle. Turns out the rattle was the problem, not the aggressive RMM, so I understand what you mean. Sometimes just doing it right the first time is best.
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Last edited by Carskick; 04-13-2017 at 07:39 AM. Reason: Adjusted response to aackthpt - missed details.
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 Old 04-13-2017, 07:33 AM   #8
 
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Lower IAT's do not equal lower BAT's, I've done an airbox and now my intake is located literally right next to the motor. Actually it's the shortest SRI on the market LOL (CS intake without the silicone adapter, filter right on TIP - had to do it to fit my piping for FMIC). Car ran like it always has on 93 BAT's around the same despite higher IAT.

Let's sum thread real quick:
3.5 if you wish to go big turbo
3.0 if you're on K04 for a significant time
3.5 will ultimately flow more but not really on a k04, probably will probably be slightly less responsive (small tq difference) and driveability may possibly suffer slightly versus a 3.0 at low speed.

The mentioned 20hp bump would be including a tune, minimal without a tune. The tune even on stock intake will yield the biggest bump of power, followed by intake and racepipe.
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 Old 04-13-2017, 07:36 AM   #9
 
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Originally Posted by WAMBUSHHHH! View Post
Can you please provide the research that you found that shows an airbox SIGNIFICANTLY improving BATs. I have a hard time believing that an airbox is going to significantly decrease your BATs. Hell, even switching from a TMIC to a FMIC didn't significantly cut my BATs down. It helped but I wouldn't call it a signficant improvement. I don't doubt that there is some kind of possible improvement with am airbox but significantly is a bit hard for me to believe. If you want cooler BATs, spray meth. There are other mods that can help but in the end spraying meth is the only true way to significantly lower your BATs reliably.

I digress, I've had a CS stock sized intake, then a 3in JBR and then a CS 3.5. From a performance standpoint, there was small gain from switching over to the CS stock sized intake. Honestly, the throttle just felt more responsive and not so much a true performance gain.

The biggest bump came from going to a 3in but that was also paired with a RP so the performance gains were a bit convoluted but nonetheless I saw some minor improvements with BATs and my g/s increased a bit probably like 15% or so. The car pulled great, sounded terrific and overall a much better driving experience. Again, the intake was paired with a RP so its tough to say how much of that was intake related but the two upgrades (intake and RP) really made the car feel alive.

There wasn't a night or day difference when I jumped up to the 3.5in. I saw virtually no improvement with BATs and my g/s increased maybe 5%, if that. The 3.5 is overkill on the k04, honestly. You're going to max out the turbo before you max out the efficiency of the 3.5in intake. If you do have plans to turbo swap, I'd go 3.5 to "future proof" your intake a bit but if you're sticking with the k04, the 3in should be just fine. The nice thing about the 3in was I only had to remove the ECU cover and not relocate. I had to relocate the ECU to accommodate the 3.5in.

Just my .02 from a guy who has changed his intake more times than his underwear.
See my responce to aackthpt, as he said the same thing. I it must have been IAT, not BAT that was seeing a comparison of. If I can find that threat, I'll post it here. But still, if an airbox lowers IAT temps 5-15 degrees, is it really worth it? It adds cost, weight, and possible restriction, and if BATs end up the same anyways...meh.

Good to hear from someone else whose had all 3 sizes. Another vote for at least 3.0 if I'm keeping K04. If I had told you I may go to a BNR S3 or CS turbo in the future, you'd probably tell me to go 3.5 now and just relocate my ECU now, huh?


Kind of expected to hear most people telling me to avoid the easy solution of just putting on the 2.67" Intake. But that means having to wait until I can do the Tune, Test Pipe, etc. all at once. If the 3-3.5 is really best, guess I'll have to wait till I can tune, too.
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 Old 04-13-2017, 07:43 AM   #10
 
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Originally Posted by Omega View Post
Lower IAT's do not equal lower BAT's, I've done an airbox and now my intake is located literally right next to the motor. Actually it's the shortest SRI on the market LOL (CS intake without the silicone adapter, filter right on TIP - had to do it to fit my piping for FMIC). Car ran like it always has on 93 BAT's around the same despite higher IAT.

Let's sum thread real quick:
3.5 if you wish to go big turbo
3.0 if you're on K04 for a significant time
3.5 will ultimately flow more but not really on a k04, probably will probably be slightly less responsive (small tq difference) and driveability may possibly suffer slightly versus a 3.0 at low speed.

The mentioned 20hp bump would be including a tune, minimal without a tune. The tune even on stock intake will yield the biggest bump of power, followed by intake and racepipe.

So if BATs are the same regaurdless, I shouldn't worry about IATs? And intercooler upgrades are the best way to lower BATs, w/o meth that is, correct?

I know with NA cars, an oversized intake can be detrimental to low end torque, but I heard it was less on a turbo. It probably is, but oversized may not necessarily be better. That's a vote for 3.0.

Yeah, I'd expect about 20hp with the tune, but as you said, much of that is the tune, not the intake. I'm hoping between intake, tune, racepipe, and TMIC upgrade, I can get 30-40WHP increase. I was trying to wait on tune until I had the other upgrades done, so I wouldn't have to pay for and deal with as many re-tunes. If I could have just an intake now, it'd hold me over and sound cool until I could afford everything else, but maybe I'd just be better of waiting, get the 3.0", and do everything at once...
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Stereo Mods: Pioneer AVH4100NEX, Phoenix Gold Fronts, Focal Rears, Polk 12" in Trunk Floor Enclosure, PPI 4x125W amp driving Fronts & Sub
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 Old 04-13-2017, 08:01 AM   #11
 
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A tune just by itself will net you more than 20hp if you're talking stock intake, then an upgraded intake even stock MAF diameter will net you ANOTHER 20 on top of the tune with stock intake... You'd probably gain a good 60-80whp with intake/tune/racepipe/intercooler.

Yes too large an intake can still drive down torque even on the turbo, but it's not really noticeable it certainly helps VE and spool though. Honestly even an S3 and CS turbo would be ok on a 3.0 - they'd likely gain some spool and flow on a 3.5 however but a 3.0 will still make some decent power.

There's nothing wrong from using a stock MAF diameter intake, I have one (CS Stage II) I used it before I had an AP, waited a year or so then got an AP and tuned. You can certainly buy a 2.67 if you want to spend more money to upgrade later, you'd be better off hp/$ by waiting and doing a 3.0 and AP at once.

I've been looking and drooling over 3.0 intakes as I can probably gain another 10-20whp just from this. If you want my CS stage II I'll throw up a for sale thread and buy a 3.0 tomorrow
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 Old 04-13-2017, 09:36 AM   #12
 
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Originally Posted by Omega View Post
A tune just by itself will net you more than 20hp if you're talking stock intake, then an upgraded intake even stock MAF diameter will net you ANOTHER 20 on top of the tune with stock intake... You'd probably gain a good 60-80whp with intake/tune/racepipe/intercooler.

Yes too large an intake can still drive down torque even on the turbo, but it's not really noticeable it certainly helps VE and spool though. Honestly even an S3 and CS turbo would be ok on a 3.0 - they'd likely gain some spool and flow on a 3.5 however but a 3.0 will still make some decent power.

There's nothing wrong from using a stock MAF diameter intake, I have one (CS Stage II) I used it before I had an AP, waited a year or so then got an AP and tuned. You can certainly buy a 2.67 if you want to spend more money to upgrade later, you'd be better off hp/$ by waiting and doing a 3.0 and AP at once.

I've been looking and drooling over 3.0 intakes as I can probably gain another 10-20whp just from this. If you want my CS stage II I'll throw up a for sale thread and buy a 3.0 tomorrow
Good info, and interesting prospect about your CS S2. How much would you want for it? (PM if prefered) =D

I will have to decide whether I will go small now and upgrade later, or just wait and do my intake along with all my other upgrades for the tune.
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 Old 04-13-2017, 10:02 AM   #13
 
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For the immediate future you'll want to stay under 3" if you have no tuning solution or you will idle like donkey shit. You are much better off speeding the $250 on either a used AP or on a E-tune and then waiting for a used 3" to pop for sale on here. I ot my full JBR 3" Whale Peen for...$150 or something like that?

Spend $250-300 now and get 10-15 hp and till not have a tuning solution
or
Spend $250-300 now for either used AP or E-tune, pick up 40+hp and be able to snatch up any good priced mods that follow after that without worry about tuning.

Seems and easy choice especially since you already have Autotechs.
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 Old 04-13-2017, 10:43 AM   #14
 
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Originally Posted by Carskick View Post
Also, I'm not planning meth or Ethanol mods at all. I know the gains can be huge, but I really don't want to do either to my DD.
Ethanol is NOT a mod, in terms of hardware. It's like adding a couple gallons of fuel additive to every tank, basically, and running a different tune. If you go somewhere you can't get E you just flash the regular map back on and go. So other than taking some effort to set up, it's not really remotely like other modding.

I had someone else tell me on my build form that if I plan on over 18psi on my K04, I'd want a boost controller, as I'd be at the top of the stock's readings, and they wouldn't be very accurate. They claimed an upgraded controller would allow the tune to hold the correct boost...
Either that person didn't know what they were talking about, or they were talking about the MAP sensor. The boost controller doesn't HAVE readings (the MAP sensor does). Even so you don't need a new MAP sensor for k04. I'm leaning toward the person didn't know what they were talking about.

I was planning on Freaktune, but you think Versatune is better?
If you think it's a choice between Freektune and Versatune, you have some more reading and learning to do.

I don't get along with the search function on this forum very well.
That's because it's basically totally broken. Don't use it. Either go to Google and use site:mazdaspeedforums.org [rest of search terms] or else use ms3shadow's custom google search which you can find at http://www.mazdaspeedforums.org/foru...er.php?u=37944
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 Old 04-13-2017, 10:49 AM   #15
 
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Originally Posted by MSP6 View Post
For the immediate future you'll want to stay under 3" if you have no tuning solution or you will idle like donkey shit. You are much better off speeding the $250 on either a used AP or on a E-tune and then waiting for a used 3" to pop for sale on here. I ot my full JBR 3" Whale Peen for...$150 or something like that?

Spend $250-300 now and get 10-15 hp and till not have a tuning solution
or
Spend $250-300 now for either used AP or E-tune, pick up 40+hp and be able to snatch up any good priced mods that follow after that without worry about tuning.

Seems and easy choice especially since you already have Autotechs.
Interesting prospect. I 100% agree, not 3.0"+ without tune. I really want to have the v3 AP, which means $650 new, or maybe $450-550 used. Many of the tuners give you a deal for a new AP and tune together, as most good E-Turners charge about $200. I was just looking at Stratified after reading some good reviews on them. $800 includes the AP and tune. I mean, I could do that, intake, and test pipe for around $1300, and wait on the TMIC, but then it's just $300-400 for the TMIC, lol!

I'd rather not tune on stock, only to pay another $100 for retunes later. But I do see where you're coming from. Even if I found a v2 for $250, I'd still pay another $200 for E-Tune. I could get by on OTS for now, since I'm mostly stock.

On the flip side, if I buy an small intake used for $120-140 now, use it w/o tune, enjoy now, then maybe get a 3.0 when I tune and do upgrades down the road. I'd probably get most of the money spent on the small intake back when I sold, as opposed to the tune, which is $100 per retune.

IDK. I just need to tell my wife I need to put $2k into my car RIGHT NOW!!!
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 Old 04-13-2017, 11:02 AM   #16
 
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Originally Posted by aackthpt View Post
Ethanol is NOT a mod, in terms of hardware. It's like adding a couple gallons of fuel additive to every tank, basically, and running a different tune. If you go somewhere you can't get E you just flash the regular map back on and go. So other than taking some effort to set up, it's not really remotely like other modding.


Either that person didn't know what they were talking about, or they were talking about the MAP sensor. The boost controller doesn't HAVE readings (the MAP sensor does). Even so you don't need a new MAP sensor for k04. I'm leaning toward the person didn't know what they were talking about.


If you think it's a choice between Freektune and Versatune, you have some more reading and learning to do.


That's because it's basically totally broken. Don't use it. Either go to Google and use site:mazdaspeedforums.org [rest of search terms] or else use ms3shadow's custom google search which you can find at http://www.mazdaspeedforums.org/foru...er.php?u=37944
I understand can tune for Ethanol, but it can cause issues with fuel pump, lines, etc, which were not designed with high ethanol in mind. I plan on keeping this car for a while, so putting things in that make it wear much quicker is not my plan.

They were the only person I've talked to that said I needed Boost Controller & MAP. (Forgot to mention it was two differnt parts, thanks for catching) They're reasoning was the stock MAP is maxing it's voltage at 20-21PSI, and is not very accurate as such. Then the boost controller would allow better control of the boost levels. @GorceryGtr mentioned this in my build thread.

I know there are a lot more tuners. I really haven't even gotten to that portion of my research yet. I actually just became aware of Stratified. I am one of those who researches the piss out of things before I pull the trigger, on top of asking questions and opinions of those who have been there before... Hence this thread.

Good idea on using the site:mazdaspeedforums.org command. Shoulda thought of that sooner, as I use it on other sites, too.

On my build thread, I was trying to get a list together of what I needed to do my initial build phase all at once. If I take of the MAF & EBC, that leaves:

AP v3 + Tune - $750-800 New
Intake - $250-300 New
TMIC - $350-450 New
Race Pipe + Install - $200
Total: $1550-1750

I say Install on Racepipe, as I don't do any self maintenance that requires me to lift the car. I have a good mechanic that'll do it for about $40-60. Intake , TMIC, and AP tune would all be done by myself. The other issue is I also need new tires in about 5K miles, so add another $800-850 Installed. (Getting Potenza SS-04s in stock size)

Of course, getting the Intake, TMIC, and Test Pipe Used could save a few hundred bucks.
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 Old 04-13-2017, 01:05 PM   #17
 
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Originally Posted by Carskick View Post
I understand can tune for Ethanol, but it can cause issues with fuel pump, lines, etc, which were not designed with high ethanol in mind. I plan on keeping this car for a while, so putting things in that make it wear much quicker is not my plan.
Yes, yes, I'm sure you know better than the community that has investigated such things and determined that no matter the time scale you are safe up to about 50% ethanol. Trust me, you aren't breaking any ground here, it has all been done.

They're reasoning was the stock MAP is maxing it's voltage at 20-21PSI, and is not very accurate as such. Then the boost controller would allow better control of the boost levels.
The stock MAP is 2.5bar and therefore reads up to ~22psi. MAP sensor question.
And yes an upgrade boost controller does control boost more accurately but the k04 just can't really produce enough to break this motor as long as you're not at too low a rev range. I did indeed go to a 3bar for this reason but the tuna told me it wasn't necessary, just as they said a new EBCS is unnecessary.

I am one of those who researches the piss out of things before I pull the trigger, on top of asking questions and opinions of those who have been there before... Hence this thread.
Right well evidently your research is not going all that well. Here's a spoon for you. Versatune is NOT A TUNER, as in Freektune or Dizzy Tuning. It is a tuning solution, same as Cobb Accessport. And while the AP has some advantages (especially if you're not ever going to self-tune), Versatune is preferred for a bunch of reasons. It's also less costly, especially if you get it on a group buy, and even more so if you hope to self-tune. It's not necessarily as convenient to throw new tunes on, though, for example if you're going to run E-mix. But it could be just as convenient, for example by buying a dedicated Windows tablet for your car. Those can be had cheap, and you could just stash it in the glovebox, then run it off your cell charger when you need to switch tune.

If you won't do anything that requires lifting the car, I highly doubt you have the will or experience to successfully self-tune this platform.
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 Old 04-13-2017, 07:18 PM   #18
 
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Originally Posted by aackthpt View Post
Yes, yes, I'm sure you know better than the community that has investigated such things and determined that no matter the time scale you are safe up to about 50% ethanol. Trust me, you aren't breaking any ground here, it has all been done.
lol. I agree. Tons of people post about running ethanol, varying amounts, etc. It seems it can add very large amounts of power with the right tune and mix. E85 or other high ethanol content fuel can have side effects on a lot of internals. So that leaves you hoping to find stations that sell E-30 or something similar, or mixing yourself. I should have been more clear, I typed my response quickly, as you could probably tell by the typos.

There are benefits to Ethanol, but I am not looking to go that far. I don't want to mix gases, run multiple tunes, fill Meth tanks, or anything that requires that much maintenance. Plus, I am still concerned about the long term affects that ethanol can cause on certain parts of engines not designed to run it. I'm not trying to say anyone is wrong. I just don't want to chance it at this point. I am looking for a long term, fun to drive, daily driver. Not a project.


Originally Posted by aackthpt View Post
The stock MAP is 2.5bar and therefore reads up to ~22psi. MAP sensor question.
And yes an upgrade boost controller does control boost more accurately but the k04 just can't really produce enough to break this motor as long as you're not at too low a rev range. I did indeed go to a 3bar for this reason but the tuna told me it wasn't necessary, just as they said a new EBCS is unnecessary.
I am glad to hear this, as I wasn't planning the MAF or EBC until GroceryGtr recommended it. My upgrade list is still very tentative, hence these topics.

I don't know exactly what boost goal my e-tuner will recommend, but with the mods I'm planning, I doubt it will exceed 20psi. And parts like EBCs and MAFs I haven't researched enough to know whether or not I actually would need them. I'm trying to learn as I go, but I'd rather search and ask question on a forum instead of just buying random parts and bolting them to my car. I am here to learn, and I appreciate the honest advice.


Originally Posted by aackthpt View Post
Right well evidently your research is not going all that well. Here's a spoon for you. Versatune is NOT A TUNER, as in Freektune or Dizzy Tuning. It is a tuning solution, same as Cobb Accessport. And while the AP has some advantages (especially if you're not ever going to self-tune), Versatune is preferred for a bunch of reasons. It's also less costly, especially if you get it on a group buy, and even more so if you hope to self-tune. It's not necessarily as convenient to throw new tunes on, though, for example if you're going to run E-mix. But it could be just as convenient, for example by buying a dedicated Windows tablet for your car. Those can be had cheap, and you could just stash it in the glovebox, then run it off your cell charger when you need to switch tune.
My mistake, I haven't researched specific tuners much yet. I was referred to Freektune & the Cobb Accessport, and really haven't explored much else, just specifics on those, primarily the AP. I just searched Versatune, and you're right, that is not for me. As much as I love cars and car theory. I do not have the time nor expertise to tune my car. My car is not a project, it's transportation. I just want it to also be fun! So in I'd be looking at an AP and an e-tune. I want to tell them what I bolted on, what I'm looking for and have them write the software. Flashing the ECU, bolting on certain parts, I'm comfortable enough with all of that. The details need to be handled by someone that can make my car run great, and last without major problems for the next 100k miles.

Originally Posted by aackthpt View Post
If you won't do anything that requires lifting the car, I highly doubt you have the will or experience to successfully self-tune this platform.
You are 100% correct. If I had a lift, and this were a project car, this would be a whole different story. I am not comfortable working under a low car on jack stands. For things like tires, brakes, exhaust, I have a great professional mechanic whose shop is down the street. He is familiar with the platform, but by no means an expert or a tuner. He does great, meticulous work, and is a million times better than the dealer I was using. That's right... up until last oil change, the dealer was doing all my maintenance. Enough of that.

Anyways, the short answer is no, I'm looking for an e-tune, and I apologize for assuming Versatune was a Freektune equivalent without checking first. I really do appreciate your time and the great advice. And the sarcasm adds some excitement!
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 Old 04-13-2017, 08:09 PM   #19
 
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Running ethanol is not an issue in mixes not is it difficult... I pump 3 gallons e 7 gallons 93... Done can't get easier... I fill at quarter tank or lower.

No E? Oh no I'll take 70 seconds to flash my 93 map lol -- not only is it a good power added it cools your combustion temps and keeps your ringlands cooler. This will prevent major ring issues, I've been running E for over 20000 miles now.
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 Old 04-13-2017, 08:16 PM   #20
 
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@aackthpt; you can definitely harm the motor on a K04 with mid range torque look at sheston hes pushing like 30psi on his k04 making a ridiculous amount of mid range torque.

EBCS on K04 can help you hold boost up top by reducing WGDC. Most people will gain 3psi or more 21st red line with an upgraded EBCS... K04 is good to like 22psi for modest mid range power if you have the MAP sensor to accommodate to pick up some extra horses.
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 Old 04-13-2017, 08:43 PM   #21
 
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Originally Posted by cshunter View Post
Your over thinking this. Get a 3.5 of whatever brand you like, and be done with it....
+1
I jumped straight to the 3.5" from stock. It'll only cost more if you half ass it because you're too broke right now to get what you really want. If you can't afford the right parts, wait until you can. Tuning solution was the first power upgrade I bought. Also, isn't the stock intake good for upwards of 300whp?

FWIW, I didn't experience any drivability issues with a 3.5 intake on the K04. Still spooled quick. BPV is plenty loud.
Although the BPV was plenty loud before the 3.5 when I removed the intake resonator box that was stuffed behind the fender. Bonus, it would pull cool air from there...even more so when I plugged the OE air box inlet hole.
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2004 Olds Alero 2.2 - Broken for the past 14 months
1988 RX-7 TII - Sold (Megasquirt, streetport, SRI, TBE, 20psi, OE turbo, OE TMIC on ice, 13.467 @ 105.44)
1985 Camaro - Sold (150hp 5.0 slow -> 265hp 5.7 swap w/ Edelbrock intake & Hooker headers...not as slow)

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 Old 04-13-2017, 09:08 PM   #22
 
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Originally Posted by Carskick View Post
I didn't think the gains would be that high without tune. Mostly hoping for responsiveness, and gains once tuned along with other upgrades. I was expecting maybe 5-10HP max. Is 20 realistic?

The intakes I was looking at come with the TIP built in. I could do just a Stage 1 and leave the stock TIP, which would lower cost and make the install easier. I really want to hear the turbo w/o having to go blow off, so wouldn't an after TIP transfer more turbo noise to my ears?

I live in Florida, so no CAI for me (hydrolock...)
Stock intake versus Mazdaspeed CAI (SRI will be similar). This was on an otherwise totally stock vehicle. BTW I live on the Mississippi Gulf Coast. I've been running the CAI for over 8 years. I expect we get as much rain as you.
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 Old 04-14-2017, 08:56 AM   #23
 
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Originally Posted by Omega View Post
@aackthpt; you can definitely harm the motor on a K04 with mid range torque look at sheston hes pushing like 30psi on his k04 making a ridiculous amount of mid range torque.
If he's pushing anything close to 30psi I'm pretty sure he's WAYYYY off the efficiency islands on the compressor map and probably the pre-intercooler temps are super high. Also I wouldn't expect that turbo to last long. And if he's doing that in the winter it might not be able to do it in the summer. And I highly doubt a pro tuner set him up with that.

Originally Posted by Fstrnyou View Post
FWIW, I didn't experience any drivability issues with a 3.5 intake on the K04. Still spooled quick.
Same. I went straight to 3.5". Freek set my idle at 900 RPM. That's the only thing that's even noticeably different in terms of driveability or normal running (but I changed a lot of other things at the same time such as TMIC so many differences are masked). Also, the thing that NOT going to a bigger intake gets you on an NA motor is higher air velocity which leads to better air tumble and mixing in the cylinder. Logically, that's moot with a turbo motor. Basically, the easier it is for the turbo to get air the better hence my decision to jump straight to a 3.5" if it'll fit with other plans. I agree there's probably not much to gain above a 3" though unless you're going for greater than stock block power.

Originally Posted by Carskick View Post
Not a project.
Fair enough, it's your decision obviously. But my point was that running E mix is not really a project anymore. How to do it is well established, but obviously if you're not willing to execute it then that's that.

I just searched Versatune, and you're right, that is not for me.
Listen, Versatune does the same thing as the AP, and the pro tuners can tune with it. It does NOT require you to self-tune. It even has OTS tunes with it, same as the AP. The reason for my self tuning comments is you indicated you wanted to do that, and it didn't seem like you perhaps understood what you were saying. Anyway as far as Versatune, it costs you less and in the future will have more support and feature additions. The only real difference is in it not coming with a device that you can use for some monitoring or for mobile flashing. Just want to make sure you understand because if I were starting from scratch and knowing what I know now I'd almost certainly go Versatune rather than AP. That's partly because I do my day-to-day monitoring using Torque on my cell phone so I don't need a device for that purpose. I only need something special for logging and flashing. If you really feel you need a monitoring device, perhaps the AP has a slight advantage but that's why I suggest that an inexpensive, smallish tablet can be had for cheap because basically that can become the device in a Versatune scenario, negating most of the advantage of the AP.

I apologize
No need to apologize for anything! Learning is good, but I suggest looking into things enough to understand what they are for and what they do. In other words, think before you write! And don't expect to be spoon-fed unless you have a humiliation fetish.

I really do appreciate your time and the great advice. And the sarcasm adds some excitement!
Thanks and I, like most others on the forum, appreciate you taking the sarcasm in good humor.

I see there are people suggesting you could run a CAI, and perhaps you could. But it costs more, it's more of a PITA to install, you don't get as many size choices and, just like the airbox discussion, does it make enough difference in BATs to matter? I'd bet not, which is why it has fallen out of favor here. For this platform it's a very old-school choice.
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 Old 04-14-2017, 09:05 AM   #24
 
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Originally Posted by aackthpt View Post
If he's pushing anything close to 30psi I'm pretty sure he's WAYYYY off the efficiency islands on the compressor map and probably the pre-intercooler temps are super high. Also I wouldn't expect that turbo to last long. And if he's doing that in the winter it might not be able to do it in the summer. And I highly doubt a pro tuner set him up with that.
Go look him up, it's not really off the efficiency terribly hard in the mid range I don't believe - definitely running meth on that though. He's been built and doing that for a while trying to blow up the K04 - hasn't really happened yet. EVO guys spin their turbos hardcore the same way in the midrange - they just don't usually bend rods doing it - of course their turbos are a bit larger too ~20% compressor size ~55mm.
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 Old 04-15-2017, 07:43 PM   #25
 
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Originally Posted by aackthpt View Post
Fair enough, it's your decision obviously. But my point was that running E mix is not really a project anymore. How to do it is well established, but obviously if you're not willing to execute it then that's that.
That's why I love this forum! You can find instances of almost anything being tried on this platform. As you point out, many people run an E mix in our cars on a daily basis with great success. I have a lot of other things going on in my life and a trip to the gas station needs to be as easy as possible. My job always has me running around and I have a 4 month old. So the last thing I need at the gas station is worrying about fuel mixes or flashing tunes, regardless of how 'easy' and


Originally Posted by aackthpt View Post
Listen, Versatune does the same thing as the AP, and the pro tuners can tune with it. It does NOT require you to self-tune. It even has OTS tunes with it, same as the AP. The reason for my self tuning comments is you indicated you wanted to do that, and it didn't seem like you perhaps understood what you were saying. Anyway as far as Versatune, it costs you less and in the future will have more support and feature additions. The only real difference is in it not coming with a device that you can use for some monitoring or for mobile flashing. Just want to make sure you understand because if I were starting from scratch and knowing what I know now I'd almost certainly go Versatune rather than AP. That's partly because I do my day-to-day monitoring using Torque on my cell phone so I don't need a device for that purpose. I only need something special for logging and flashing. If you really feel you need a monitoring device, perhaps the AP has a slight advantage but that's why I suggest that an inexpensive, smallish tablet can be had for cheap because basically that can become the device in a Versatune scenario, negating most of the advantage of the AP.
I do need to research Versatune moren then. Seems most people use AP so I just 'fell' into that bandwagon. I never meant to indicate I was self tuning. I meant I was uploading E-tunes myself, which of course, is much simpler.


Originally Posted by aackthpt View Post
No need to apologize for anything! Learning is good, but I suggest looking into things enough to understand what they are for and what they do. In other words, think before you write! And don't expect to be spoon-fed unless you have a humiliation fetish.
I guess the topic got into uncharted territory for me, and I made assumptions instead of just blatantly saying I have no clue. I was at work and didn't have time to research it. I don't have a humiliation fetish, but I won't be offended if someone calls me out on mis-information. That's why I'm here, to learn to build my car correctly. So many people with MS3's bolt a bunch of crap on to their car and break it. I want my car to live forever!


Originally Posted by aackthpt View Post
Thanks and I, like most others on the forum, appreciate you taking the sarcasm in good humor.
I am no stranger to sarcasm or online forums, so I'm not easily offended in that way!

Originally Posted by aackthpt View Post
I see there are people suggesting you could run a CAI, and perhaps you could. But it costs more, it's more of a PITA to install, you don't get as many size choices and, just like the airbox discussion, does it make enough difference in BATs to matter? I'd bet not, which is why it has fallen out of favor here. For this platform it's a very old-school choice.
I have had to go through deep water in my MS3 before. I know I would have hydro-locked had I had a CAI. There is no reason for me to attempt it, I am definitely doing SRI.

As most have pointed out, I am probably best to wait until I can get my Tune along with the SRI, Test Pipe, and TMIC. I'll probably take that advice, just wait, then do a 3.0, either de-covering or relocating the ECU. I really just want the cool noises that the SRI adds!
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 Old 04-16-2017, 12:11 AM   #26
 
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Originally Posted by Carskick View Post
So I've researched several intakes and opinions on them quite a bit, and I'm trying to come to terms which is better for a non-BT built.
If you want a real functional upgrade then get an intake no larger than 3" (ID) AND an air box.
The fact that these cone filters sit inside the engine bay drawing air from around the engine at low speeds leads to faster heat soaking of the whole intake tubing (including the IC) and to slower heat dissipation once you get moving.
For a stock turbo the Cobb SRI flows quite well and you also have an airbox choice. I used this SRI up to around 370bhp (355/360g/s or air).

An upgraded intake will not result in an increase of power, 20bhp is not realistic at all unless you change the tune. However, the air will flow easier and because the turbo will work with a smaller differential pressure the BATs may be a bit lower in the same high load conditions. Upping the load to match the BATs/WGDCs you've had with the factory intake may result in a 20bhp increase though.

Also, get a silicone intake. Personally I love my JBR Tru-3" silicone intake because it deformed a bit so that I didn't have to relocate the ECU or get a smaller battery, and I love that more than I hate the fact that I'm closer to the MAF voltage limit in the current setup (at 31PSI in winter).

Going with larger intakes than 3" (even at 3" with a stock turbo you'll feel that, even though with a stock turbo it will not be that obvious) the speed of the air through the intake will be smaller and even this happens only between the filter and turbo the car will feel a bit lazier in low speed/low load situations.
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 Old 04-18-2017, 11:18 AM   #27
 
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Originally Posted by mituc View Post
If you want a real functional upgrade then get an intake no larger than 3" (ID) AND an air box.
The fact that these cone filters sit inside the engine bay drawing air from around the engine at low speeds leads to faster heat soaking of the whole intake tubing (including the IC) and to slower heat dissipation once you get moving.
For a stock turbo the Cobb SRI flows quite well and you also have an airbox choice. I used this SRI up to around 370bhp (355/360g/s or air).

An upgraded intake will not result in an increase of power, 20bhp is not realistic at all unless you change the tune. However, the air will flow easier and because the turbo will work with a smaller differential pressure the BATs may be a bit lower in the same high load conditions. Upping the load to match the BATs/WGDCs you've had with the factory intake may result in a 20bhp increase though.

Also, get a silicone intake. Personally I love my JBR Tru-3" silicone intake because it deformed a bit so that I didn't have to relocate the ECU or get a smaller battery, and I love that more than I hate the fact that I'm closer to the MAF voltage limit in the current setup (at 31PSI in winter).

Going with larger intakes than 3" (even at 3" with a stock turbo you'll feel that, even though with a stock turbo it will not be that obvious) the speed of the air through the intake will be smaller and even this happens only between the filter and turbo the car will feel a bit lazier in low speed/low load situations.
I've been getting mixed feedback on the airbox. People saying lower Intake Temps doesn't necessarily lower BATs. I assumed the same thing at first. And no, I had found research that said this, but I haven't looked for it again, yet.

I know for 100% I won't get 20HP with just an intake and no tune. 20HP with tune is a maybe... A friend with a 2.0 turbo Kia Optima did Intake and OTS Tune. It made a noticeable difference throughout the power band, but I doubt it added 20 HP, maybe 5-15, depending on where in the band.

I was really wanting an Aluminum Intake for the increased turbo noise, but if Silicon will fit better w/o having to remove ECU cover on a 3.0", that's a plus. Otherwise, I'd rather have intake noise!

Most people have said that 3" doesn't negatively effect low end torque, but 3.5" does a little. You think is does? If that's the case, and I don't plan BT, would the 2.67" prevent that? Of course, then it potentially limits top end power. That brings me back to one of my original questions. At what point is going from 2.67" to 3" truly needed? With just Intake, TMIC, Test Pipe, and Tune, is it really going to matter in the top end? I've heard yes, and I've heard larger intake allow for quicker spooling...
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 Old 04-18-2017, 12:26 PM   #28
 
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Originally Posted by Carskick View Post
Most people have said that 3" doesn't negatively effect low end torque, but 3.5" does a little. You think is does? If that's the case, and I don't plan BT, would the 2.67" prevent that? Of course, then it potentially limits top end power. That brings me back to one of my original questions. At what point is going from 2.67" to 3" truly needed? With just Intake, TMIC, Test Pipe, and Tune, is it really going to matter in the top end? I've heard yes, and I've heard larger intake allow for quicker spooling...
As I said, I ran a Cobb SRI (which is flowing 10-12% than stock) up to 360g/s of air. If you don't plan to upgrade the turbo then you know the factory turbo will never flow that much air, not even at -40.
So realistically speaking a 3" may free up 10-15bhp over a stock-sized intake when accompanied by a lot of other flow mods on both the exhaust and intake side.

As for the turbo noise... Here is how a Cobb SRI (and probably any stock-sized SRI without an airbox) sounds like:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2hmYh1NRTU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFUFiN9pYjs

I;m not sure about you, but to me it was quite a lot of turbo sound which on long trips may become not that pleasant after a point just like any extra noise (coming from the exhaust, mounts, and so on).
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 Old 04-18-2017, 01:33 PM   #29
 
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Originally Posted by Carskick View Post
Most people have said that 3" doesn't negatively effect low end torque, but 3.5" does a little. You think is does?
I'd love to see a dyno or vdyno plot comparing 3" to 3.5" proving that the 3.5" makes lower low end torque. I highly doubt it, and I think it's a myth.

Your rods would rather you not make lots of low end torque anyway. And I can tell you I see no driveability issues or lack of low end torque with my 3.5".
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 Old 04-18-2017, 02:34 PM   #30
 
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Originally Posted by aackthpt View Post
I'd love to see a dyno or vdyno plot comparing 3" to 3.5" proving that the 3.5" makes lower low end torque. I highly doubt it, and I think it's a myth.

Your rods would rather you not make lots of low end torque anyway. And I can tell you I see no driveability issues or lack of low end torque with my 3.5".
I agree, I'd love to see this comparison. From my understanding, higher flowing intakes/exausts generally lower low end torque and increase high end torque. The question is how much, and does it matter. Another generalization: Things that lower low end torque also lower gas millage?

Gotta love my car knowledge generalizations!

Originally Posted by mituc View Post
As I said, I ran a Cobb SRI (which is flowing 10-12% than stock) up to 360g/s of air. If you don't plan to upgrade the turbo then you know the factory turbo will never flow that much air, not even at -40.
So realistically speaking a 3" may free up 10-15bhp over a stock-sized intake when accompanied by a lot of other flow mods on both the exhaust and intake side.

As for the turbo noise... Here is how a Cobb SRI (and probably any stock-sized SRI without an airbox) sounds like:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2hmYh1NRTU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFUFiN9pYjs

I;m not sure about you, but to me it was quite a lot of turbo sound which on long trips may become not that pleasant after a point just like any extra noise (coming from the exhaust, mounts, and so on).
The first video sounds like it has VTA as well. If I'm mistaken, I love that Intake noise! I may get tired of vibrations and drones, but I doubt I'd ever get sick of a good turbo noise. I wouldn't think you'd get much extra noise at cruise, just under load. Unlike some Motor Mounts, which when cruising at 3k ish RPMs, add some extra noise.

In the videos, those are silicon Cobb SRI's, not metal correct?
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 Old 04-18-2017, 03:19 PM   #31
 
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Originally Posted by Carskick View Post
I agree, I'd love to see this comparison. From my understanding, higher flowing intakes/exausts generally lower low end torque and increase high end torque. The question is how much, and does it matter
That's not my only question. My question is, why would it work that way on a turbo car? It makes sense on a NA car. Unless I hear something that makes sense how it matters on a turbo car, or any forced induction for that matter, it is rong.
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 Old 04-18-2017, 11:08 PM   #32
 
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Originally Posted by Carskick View Post
In the videos, those are silicon Cobb SRI's, not metal correct?
Cobb SRI with a Turbosmart BPV (full recirc).

It was great fun in the first like 2 weeks after fitting it, but it got a lot better (dampened the sound a bit) after adding the air box.

Also I'm one of those people who doesn't care what the people outside the car hear, only what I hear and feel. So a metal intake will also amplify these sounds which are going to become a lot more noticeable outside the car even at low speeds. SO if you also want to put up a better show then a metal intake will serve this purpose quite well.
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 Old 04-19-2017, 08:55 AM   #33
 
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If you do choose a silicone intake, mind you, it is helpful for fitment but it is one piece including the part that attaches to the turbo inlet so the argument that you're protecting for the future is out the window - you have to get a new silicone intake if you get a turbo with a different inlet size. The other thing about aluminum is that it's a bit thinner so I think the OD is a bit smaller on an equivalent I.D. aluminum intake vs. the silicone. After having thought about it and observed my silicone intake, I also think an aluminum intake would be better for heat soak in traffic conditions in the summer. It will heat soak a little faster when you're sitting there, however I think it will un-soak faster given its lower heat capacity and higher heat conductivity. Since there are pluses and minuses, frankly, I'm not at all sure if I'd go aluminum or silcone if I were to do it again... or if/when my k04 dies. I mean, assuming the next turbo is my last there would be no reason to care about interchanging whereas that may be a factor to you.

I ran an aluminum 3.5" before I put the silicone 3.5" on and I guess I can't say how the sound is outside the car but what I hear as the driver (and I almost always keep the windows closed) is frankly negligibly different.
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 Old 04-20-2017, 02:13 PM   #34
 
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Originally Posted by aackthpt View Post
That's not my only question. My question is, why would it work that way on a turbo car? It makes sense on a NA car. Unless I hear something that makes sense how it matters on a turbo car, or any forced induction for that matter, it is rong.
It would be interesting to see a direct comparison to see if it really does.

If you look at Corksport's own tests of their CAI only, they appeared to lose low end torque vs stock. They even talk about this in their writeup. I would think this trend would continue to larger intakes. Interestingly, it appears to be offset by a race pipe, and even more so by the downpipe. This is just one example of this happening, but I believe this shows what we're discussing. Correct me if I'm wrong.

As an aside, they are claiming 33HP increase from their intake alone, and it's not a 3.0". I am assuming that's with a tune, though. This is marketing, but CS is supposed to not lie right...
The Downpipe/Racepipe Graph appears to have more power/torque throughout, and it is much smoother and constant than stock or CAI alone. It's overall a much more attractive powerband. Couple that with a TMIC, and it seems like a good scenario, and about where I want to be. So then would I be fine with this CS intake, or the comparable JBR PowerPath. This requires fewer mods (no ECU cover removal or relocate), and I'd just accept having to replace it if I went BT down the road. I can live with that...And I could put it on pre-tune if I wanted.

For fitment, silicon would be thicker, but can be plied a little, where is Aluminum is ridgid, but thinner. Either one would probably require the ECU cover be removed for a 3.0", huh? Seems to be standard practice. Or a relocation...
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 Old 04-20-2017, 03:58 PM   #35
 
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Originally Posted by Carskick View Post
If you look at Corksport's own tests of their CAI only, they appeared to loose low end torque vs stock. They even talk about this in their writeup. I would think this trend would continue to larger intakes. Interestingly, it appears to be offset by a race pipe, and even more so by the downpipe. This is just one example of this happening, but I believe this shows what we're discussing. Correct me if I'm wrong.

As an aside, they are claiming 33HP increase from their intake alone, and it's not a 3.0". I am assuming that's with a tune, though. This is marketing, but CS is supposed to not lie right...
I'm assuming you're allowed to optimize the tune for any intake you put on, because the car will clearly not run right without MAFCAL.

You're right, that does appear to show a low end torque decrease. I wonder why that is - still not accepting that it's a universal phenomenon without a solid explanation. However, frankly, that you shouldn't be flooring it below 3k RPM anyway. I'd also love to see multiple runs in this kind of data, so I can get an idea of the error. I wish these dyno plotting softwares would put errors bars on the graphs, all scientific-like. Anyway the race pipe negation would explain why I haven't even noticed a problem with my 3.5" since I put on a resonated test pipe at the same time I went to the big intake.

Originally Posted by Carskick View Post
they appeared to loose low end torque vs stock.
One other thing: it is "lose" torque not "loose" torque. Seriously, I fucking hate that.
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 Old 04-20-2017, 04:16 PM   #36
 
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Originally Posted by aackthpt View Post
One other thing: it is "lose" torque not "loose" torque. Seriously, I fucking hate that.
When ya torque is loose, ya gotta torque it down.
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 Old 04-20-2017, 04:39 PM   #37
 
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Originally Posted by AveryPlaysBass View Post
When ya torque is loose, ya gotta torque it down.
Maybe if "torque" is your GF's nickname.
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 Old 04-20-2017, 05:47 PM   #38
 
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Originally Posted by aackthpt View Post
Maybe if "torque" is your GF's nickname.
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 Old 04-20-2017, 06:05 PM   #39
 
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Originally Posted by aackthpt View Post

You're right, that does appear to show a low end torque decrease. I wonder why that is - still not accepting that it's a universal phenomenon without a solid explanation.
Told you guys that shit in post 11... lol
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 Old 04-20-2017, 06:25 PM   #40
 
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Originally Posted by Omega View Post
Told you guys that shit in post 11... lol
But you didn't explain why. A believable explanation would be much more valuable than a useless post.
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