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MazdaSpeed 3 - Engine, Transmission & Driveline Discussion of engine, tranny and drivelines.


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 Old 04-20-2017, 06:52 PM   #41
 
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Originally Posted by aackthpt View Post
But you didn't explain why. A believable explanation would be much more valuable than a useless post.
I'll leave it at this since your posts are 95% inflammatory and worthless.

I'm not a mechanical engineer, I don't have the explanation but I know from experience. It's not useless when it's correct, jackass.
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 Old 04-20-2017, 07:11 PM   #42
 
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@aackthpt my loose torque has been fixed! I like to be correct grammar 4 u!

Originally Posted by Omega View Post
Told you guys that shit in post 11... lol
Low end torque on dyno graphs generally translates to less torque at partial throttle, and worsened fuel economy. Something else to research if you want, but from cars I've driven, I believe it. My friend's Optima 2.0T was definitely weaker before turbo spool up, and worsened fuel economy. That is, until he tuned. It brought torque up throughout. Then again, I'm pretty sure it wasn't a 3" intake.

But Omega, if you're still wanting to go 3.0, I would be interested in your CS S2 if you decide to upgrade. I'm in no huge hurry! I'm pretty sure I want to give one of the smaller intakes a try. I'm starting to think it may suit my needs better.

I am considering a High Cat full downpipe now too. I saw a couple of used CP-E versions of these in the for sale, but I'm concerned about the cat's reliability. They are older models and both have 20k or 50k miles on them. But I will save this for a bit. The intake I can do pre-tune, everything else, I need tune first...

Thank you guys for all of your help!
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 Old 04-20-2017, 07:11 PM   #43
 
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FWIW the dyno chart I posted above showing the big gain for the CAI only was done by Car and Driver magazine on an '08 MS3, before and after. Stock tune. It really did have a profound positive effect on intake side flow.
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 Old 04-21-2017, 07:47 PM   #44
 
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Originally Posted by Omega View Post
I'll leave it at this since your posts are 95% inflammatory and worthless.
Ooo, somebody's got the butt hurt. However I'm glad to see you have read enough of my posts to have confidence in my highly inflammatory nature. LOL.

I'm not a mechanical engineer, I don't have the explanation but I know from experience. It's not useless when it's correct, jackass.
It's useless when it's pointing at something we all already read before. I don't mean, and certainly didn't say, your original post was useless.

As soon as you use the term "VE" you make some implication that you think you have some level of engineering knowledge. Evidently not. And I can tell you're not an engineer; you make claims then refuse to cite supporting data in favor of ad hominem attacks.
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 Old 04-21-2017, 07:57 PM   #45
 
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Originally Posted by Carskick View Post
Low end torque on dyno graphs generally translates to less torque at partial throttle, and worsened fuel economy.
Would love to see data. Problem is that dyno graphs don't have much to do with those conditions given that they generally are of WOT, open-loop conditions. On the Optima, is tuning being done on its closed-loop operation? And are you basing your concerns on fuel economy? Because as far as I recall that hasn't even been mentioned as some kind of motivation. And fuel economy is certain not generally a concern in discussions of car modding. If your contention is that more low-end torque improves driveability, then maybe there's a discussion in it, but frankly this car's got so much torque I don't see that as a problem with anything even remotely close to the stock amount. But then before the ms3 I drove a car with 128 lbs-ft at 6200 RPM for 16 years. #gutless
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 Old 04-21-2017, 08:30 PM   #46
 
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Originally Posted by aackthpt View Post
Ooo, somebody's got the butt hurt. However I'm glad to see you have read enough of my posts to have confidence in my highly inflammatory nature. LOL.


It's useless when it's pointing at something we all already read before. I don't mean, and certainly didn't say, your original post was useless.

As soon as you use the term "VE" you make some implication that you think you have some level of engineering knowledge. Evidently not. And I can tell you're not an engineer; you make claims then refuse to cite supporting data in favor of ad hominem attacks.
1) I said I'm not a mechanical engineer, actually am an engineer

2) Never said VE - someone else said it - still makes you a jackass

3) Haven't made attacks, but whatever, done with you keyboard warrior, go entertain your right hand more .
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 Old 04-21-2017, 08:41 PM   #47
 
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I don't have any regrets getting a 3.5" intake. Didn't notice any drivability issues. TBH, I didn't notice ANY change other than louder intake and needing to change my load targets after the MAFCAL. The K04 spools so quick, I'm not sure why there is even a discussion regarding a loss of low end torque.
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 Old 04-22-2017, 07:49 AM   #48
 
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Originally Posted by aackthpt View Post
Would love to see data. Problem is that dyno graphs don't have much to do with those conditions given that they generally are of WOT, open-loop conditions. On the Optima, is tuning being done on its closed-loop operation? And are you basing your concerns on fuel economy? Because as far as I recall that hasn't even been mentioned as some kind of motivation. And fuel economy is certain not generally a concern in discussions of car modding. If your contention is that more low-end torque improves driveability, then maybe there's a discussion in it, but frankly this car's got so much torque I don't see that as a problem with anything even remotely close to the stock amount. But then before the ms3 I drove a car with 128 lbs-ft at 6200 RPM for 16 years. #gutless
I would love to see data on this as well with our cars. I'm basing my assumptions on past research, talking with various mechanics, car guys, past experience, etc.

No, my concerns are not fuel economy based, I am just balancing all the pros and cons. Generally, from my understanding, lower dyno torque translates to lower torque and partial throttle as well. Assuming everything is equal, this means a higher load is required of the engine to cruise at the same speed/RPM, therefore worsened fuel economy and drivability. Is it a huge difference? Almost certainly not. But I would think a larger intake would exacerbate the problem. Again, this is mostly theoretically.

The Optima had an OTS shelf tune for his intake only mod. That's all that was done to the car, then he totaled it...

I drove the car several times, including before any mods, intake only, then post tune. In fact, he tricked me into installing his intake for him, like I knew what I was doing... It was a PITA, but I did it correctly, as his mechanic double checked my work! Anyways, after installing the intake, low end torque felt noticeably worsened, though top end was better. After the tune, low end felt about the same as stock, and top end felt amazing! It was automatic, and part of this improvement was due to the tune improving the horrible Kia auto transmission stock tune. Stock, the Torque Converter was slip city.

WOT low end torque doesn't matter to much with our cars, because it's dangerous. I used to do WOT pulls from 2k RPMS all the time in my car before I knew this. It never seemed to mind, but then again, I was bone stock. I don't do that any more, and only let full boost kick in after about 2.8k RPMs. I love the feel of the low end torque pull, which is why I hate to loose it. Plus, it is nice in many traffic situations. On a track, it's irrelevant.

I agree, our cars have a lot of torque, but not much without turbo assistance. However, I think a lot of this becomes moot once other mods are done as well. Add a TMIC, full downpipe, and tune, and you've got more power/torque everywhere.

But back to the topic, most seem to agree that as long as the tune is setup for the intake, it does just fine.

I don't want to go against the advice of most, but if I can get a second hand CS Stage 2 Power, it will suffice until I want to go bigger. I'm still not convinced a 3" or larger intake will significantly help much when I'm just going to have TMIC, downpipe, intake, and tune. Even if did help a little bit, there is cost involved of moving the ECU.

So it looks like I'm going to take the easier road for now. I can always resell the intake if I decide to go bigger. Thank you for all the advice everyone!
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 Old 04-22-2017, 07:56 AM   #49
 
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Let me start by saying i did not read this thread in it's entirety, but rather skimmed a bit, so this may be somewhat redundant but yall all were typing walls of text and aint nobody got time for that haha.

I have tuned dozens of these cars in the past 5 years or so. Stock turbo, big turbo, pump gas, E85, you name it. The bigger intake is ALWAYS better. A lot of people are sitting here comparing peak numbers, but the main advantage of the 3.5" intakes is they decrease BATs by lowering the turbos working effort, and they also increase boost (or rather, prevent it from falling off) in the upper RPMS. If tuning on pump gas only, you will see better gains with a larger intake. E85 is probably a wash though since you can push it hard enough to not matter.

The peak gains may be minimal between a 2.5" / 3" / 3.5", but if you start comparing curve gains it is really no comparison at all. Also, as far as torque loss with a 3.5" is concerned, that's one of the dumbest things i've ever heard. Even if that were the case, you are tuning a turbo vehicle, just add a little more WGDC in that region and call it a day...

Just do it right the first time. Used APs pop up for sale all the time, and i'd bet used intakes do too. Get you a 3.5" intake and tuner and be glad you did.
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 Old 04-22-2017, 10:41 AM   #50
 
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Originally Posted by Voltwings View Post
Let me start by saying i did not read this thread in it's entirety, but rather skimmed a bit, so this may be somewhat redundant but yall all were typing walls of text and aint nobody got time for that haha.

I have tuned dozens of these cars in the past 5 years or so. Stock turbo, big turbo, pump gas, E85, you name it. The bigger intake is ALWAYS better. A lot of people are sitting here comparing peak numbers, but the main advantage of the 3.5" intakes is they decrease BATs by lowering the turbos working effort, and they also increase boost (or rather, prevent it from falling off) in the upper RPMS. If tuning on pump gas only, you will see better gains with a larger intake. E85 is probably a wash though since you can push it hard enough to not matter.

The peak gains may be minimal between a 2.5" / 3" / 3.5", but if you start comparing curve gains it is really no comparison at all. Also, as far as torque loss with a 3.5" is concerned, that's one of the dumbest things i've ever heard. Even if that were the case, you are tuning a turbo vehicle, just add a little more WGDC in that region and call it a day...

Just do it right the first time. Used APs pop up for sale all the time, and i'd bet used intakes do too. Get you a 3.5" intake and tuner and be glad you did.
LOL, very to the point, and I appreciate the input from an experienced tuner.

Since you've seen a lot of 3.5" intake builds, what is the best economical way to relocate the ECU? EDIT: I just saw on JBR's 3.5 intake install instructions that they say to Double Stick Tape the ECU to the top of the fusebox. Is that really the best way? LOL, at least it's economical...

I could just bite the bullet, do AP & 3.5" Intake, and use an OTS 3.5" tune until I get my other parts, then e-tune.

Same goes for the 3.0, but not having to relocate the ECU.

Bottom line is that if 3.0 or larger is the way to go, and I know I need to tune, I may just want to focus on intake and OTS tune now, then plan on TMIC, Downpipe, and e-tune as my stage 2...
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 Old 04-22-2017, 01:13 PM   #51
 
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Velcro is a very good option. Admittedly not the best, but when the alternatives are smaller trays and batteries that will run a couple hundred more dollars, it becomes very appealing indeed.

Also, on a Gen 1, i would recommend a front mount. I'm sure this is going to cause another topic of discussion, but when comparing the Gen 2 with an upgraded TMIC to a Gen 1 the Gen 2 fares FAR better. The actual scoop just does a much better job of getting air in there than the Gen 1 design.
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 Old 04-23-2017, 10:28 AM   #52
 
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Originally Posted by Voltwings View Post
Velcro is a very good option. Admittedly not the best, but when the alternatives are smaller trays and batteries that will run a couple hundred more dollars, it becomes very appealing indeed.

Also, on a Gen 1, i would recommend a front mount. I'm sure this is going to cause another topic of discussion, but when comparing the Gen 2 with an upgraded TMIC to a Gen 1 the Gen 2 fares FAR better. The actual scoop just does a much better job of getting air in there than the Gen 1 design.
Velcro is a good idea, rather do that than Double Stick Tape, I guess...lol

I see there are new battery boxes, front mount adapters, etc. But not only are they expensive, but several people seem to be having shorting issues. Putting the ECU atop a plastic relay cover doesn't seem like it would cause those same issues.

If it really is that easy, maybe saving for an AP to go along with a 3.0" intake is the way to go, just using an OTS tune.

As you mentioned, peak numbers are of low importance, compared to a dyno or responsiveness. I thought that's where a smaller intake would do better, but you feel the opposite is true. A larger intake would have faster spooling, better mid range pull, and more constant power delivery on a K04 than a smaller one?
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 Old 04-23-2017, 02:18 PM   #53
 
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Originally Posted by Carskick View Post

As you mentioned, peak numbers are of low importance, compared to a dyno or responsiveness. I thought that's where a smaller intake would do better, but you feel the opposite is true. A larger intake would have faster spooling, better mid range pull, and more constant power delivery on a K04 than a smaller one?
Yes. On an N/A motor your thought process is more or less correct, smaller pipes (be it intake or exhaust) result in faster moving air, and torque is a derivative of velocity. That is a GROSS simplification of the process, but that's why people always say "back pressure is good, because going too big on the exhaust causes torque loss."
That's 100% false and drives me nuts. What larger pipes cause is a reduction in velocity at low rpms (low end torque loss), but an increase in velocity up top (due to less restriction) and since HP is a derivative of torque and RPM you get an HP increase.


Turbos are different, you want the most free flowing path possible. Now, logically it still makes sense that air would be moving through the smaller inlet pipe faster, but even if that did have some impact on spool time, it can easily be tuned out. There is also the pressure ratio to take into account, which for another gross simplification is a ratio of how hard the turbo has to work to pull air in vs how much air it is putting out. Lowering the inlet restriction, moves that ratio to a more favorable portion of the compressor map.
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 Old 04-24-2017, 07:27 AM   #54
 
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Originally Posted by Voltwings View Post
Yes. On an N/A motor your thought process is more or less correct, smaller pipes (be it intake or exhaust) result in faster moving air, and torque is a derivative of velocity. That is a GROSS simplification of the process, but that's why people always say "back pressure is good, because going too big on the exhaust causes torque loss."
That's 100% false and drives me nuts. What larger pipes cause is a reduction in velocity at low rpms (low end torque loss), but an increase in velocity up top (due to less restriction) and since HP is a derivative of torque and RPM you get an HP increase.


Turbos are different, you want the most free flowing path possible. Now, logically it still makes sense that air would be moving through the smaller inlet pipe faster, but even if that did have some impact on spool time, it can easily be tuned out. There is also the pressure ratio to take into account, which for another gross simplification is a ratio of how hard the turbo has to work to pull air in vs how much air it is putting out. Lowering the inlet restriction, moves that ratio to a more favorable portion of the compressor map.
Good info, and we're on the same page! Less restriction pre-turbo would cause it to spool more quickly, and the larger intake allows for a higher volume of air. The velocity of air doesn't matter BEFORE it goes through the turbo, as it does with an NA motor. That's the difference, if I'm following you correctly.

But what of true low end torque, ie. pre-spool & partial throttle at low RPMs, staying out of boost. Correct me if I'm wrong, but when you're out of boost, the engine acts more like an NA engine.

So just hypothetically, lets compare stock to a 3" intake. I'm in 6th gear at 1.8k to 2k RPMs, cruising. Traffic slowly picks up speed, I don't downshift, but just give about 25% throttle. This causes the car to accelerate, but does not go into boost. With effectively no turbo assist, wouldn't the stock, restrictive intake have better responsiveness, as it has a higher velocity of the air, as opposed to the 3" SRI? If that's true, you have to put a higher load on the engine to achieve the same acceleration with the 3", thus getting worsened gas mileage/drivability with regards to low end torque.

Now then the follow up questions to this would be:
  1. Is the difference significant enough to matter?
  2. Do larger intakes exacerbate the problem?

I guess that's the heart of what I'm getting to. As you pointed out, once the boost kicks in, larger intake is always better. I would call that mid-range torque, as our cars don't spool until 2.8k-3k with stock turbo, if driven correctly.

Sorry to keep dwelling on this, but I'd love to know if you've ever experimented with these type of low end torque scenarios. Thank you again for the valuable input!
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 Old 04-24-2017, 08:58 AM   #55
 
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Just to be clear, the laziness and lower responsiveness i mentioned ( Current Intake Options for a non-BT Build: JBR PP S2 vs 3.0 Options ) if the larger intakes can be felt ONLY in low speed/load situations. In any other situation larger is better and it's true for both intake and exhaust (including manifolds and so on).
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Originally Posted by mituc View Post
Just to be clear, the laziness and lower responsiveness i mentioned ( Current Intake Options for a non-BT Build: JBR PP S2 vs 3.0 Options ) if the larger intakes can be felt ONLY in low speed/load situations. In any other situation larger is better and it's true for both intake and exhaust (including manifolds and so on).
Thank you for clarification. I'll bet based on how people drive their car, some notice it, some don't. For those who rarely drive under 2.5k RPMs, and gun it whenever possible, they'd never notice it. But light load, low RPMs, I'd think larger piping does have a negative effect.
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Originally Posted by Carskick View Post
But light load, low RPMs, I'd think larger piping does have a negative effect.
I wouldn't call it a negative effect, more like a side effect or something to adjust your driving to....
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 Old 04-25-2017, 05:13 AM   #58
 
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Originally Posted by mituc View Post
I wouldn't call it a negative effect, more like a side effect or something to adjust your driving to....
I would agree with this. I take it for granted that i tune myself since ATR isnt readily available to most people any more. The easy answer is there are a dozen things you can adjust in the tune to account for whatever laziness there may or may not be with a larger intake, but if you're not tuning yourself, trying to get your tuner to change your car's DD habits is going to be very difficult indeed.


I honestly cant say if there is or is not any increase in off-boost laziness or sluggishness, but i agree that whatever slight issues there may be are something a slight change in driving style could account for.
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 Old 04-25-2017, 05:21 AM   #59
 
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As stated earlier, I noticed no ill effects of going from stock to 3.5" with a K04. And I'm one of those that frequently drive under 2500 revs. Just tooting around town, that's when I shift.
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