did anyone else notice this?
 

Mazda TSB: ECU reflash - everyone has been blah blah blahing about more power in all the gears, no puff of black smoke yadda yadda which probably means they leaned the mixture a tiny bit

Mazda stop selling the Mazdaspeed cold air intake - notorious for its larger than stock mass air flow meter housing causing lean at idle codes in some vehicles.



coincidence? I think not.

What's especially ironic about the CAI is that Mazda was attempting to undermine the aftermarket parts market by selling their own "aftermarket" parts. But, even though the know more about THEIR OWN vehicle than the aftermarket companies, the still managed to mess it up. Really inspires confidence in the rest of the vehicle :)

they didn't design the intake it was made by AEM.

And I said it before that there would be a reflash coming when they pulled the intake and here it is.

I think I heard somewhere that they contracted the intakes from an aftermarket company. I don't think it was an attempt at undermining, but more a capitalization on the fact that speed3 buyers are probably buying this car to modify it. I mean, most import companies and, come to think of it, most domestic companies have aftermarket branches that specialize in products for their vehicles. the difference in MAF meter housings is inexcusable in my opinion.

are you sure that this reflash leans the mixture?

I'd like to see a car on a dyno before and after with af ratios. I'm sure we'll see dyno charts soon enough.

they pulled the intake because its CARB certification ran out. it will probably go back on shelves when they get re-certified. as for the reflash, it is part of the cdfp issue and it is supposed to lean out the afr's a tad so it doesn't demand as much fuel.

Due to low fuel pressure at the high-pressure fuel pump, some vehicles may experience the following:
• Rough idle, stall, and/or hesitation under cold conditions.
• Intermittent lack of power during acceleration when the engine gets hot.
• MIL turns on with DTC P2177/P2187 (fuel system too lean at off idle).
This is caused by a delayed fuel pressure build-up from the high pressure fuel pump. There are two main reasons
for this:
1. The drive current from the PCM is not enough for some fuel pumps.
2. Some fuel pumps have slower response.
To fix the problem, the PCM software and the specification of the high-pressure fuel pump have been changed.
Customers having this concern should have their vehicle repaired using the following repair procedure.

here are the fixes:
1. supply more current
2. replace the pump



how do you read this as lean out the mixture?

this reflash exists to FIX the problem with lean codes, not lean the mixture so that the pump can be babied.

it happens cause the car demands to much fuel in the low rpms when getting on the throttle thus creating a lean code. if they lean out the tables set in the pcm the car no longer demands as much fuel and the pump isn't struggling and then the car is no longer running lean per what the table says it should be running. that is how it fixes it. and if the reflash doesn't fix it then they replace the fuel pump.

how do you KNOW this?

because it makes sense and that is what others have said it probably does as well. i am not 100% sure thats what it does, but it probably is. why else would those who have had it done feel more power? because they have leaned it out a bit. if you look at my datalog thread in the speed6 engine section you will see i am running out of fuel. well i am going in for the reflash on monday and we'll see if that fixes it.

yes, I see that your conjecture makes sense, but think about this: if they lean the mixture, it's not going to change what the o2 sensors are seeing. they would have to also change the parameters that the o2 sensors are seeing as correct. this kind of defeats the purpose of the system. since they mention low voltage to pumps and pumps not being sufficient, I think you can fit my explanation in more easily. a stronger pump also means more power. make sure you log fuel pressure before and after, because if the pump is seeing more voltage, it should create more pressure. the A/F ratio should change either way.

well technically all they would have to do is change the commanded A/F table and the ecu would strive to hit those numbers thus making it a simple change. by leaning the mixture it would change what the O2 sensors are seeing because obviously they would not read as rich.

also jon has said that the new pump if they do put it in does not have any upgraded internals so i don't think fuel pressure will increase, maybe just in the areas where mine fails. and they won't replace the fuel pump unless you still have the problem after the reflash.

whatever dude, post logs before and after and maybe we will see something change. if you can get the first on the same day as the second, that would be most helpful.

mazda is not going to do a reflash to lean the car out. the reflash will do as stated above....supply more voltage to the pump. more voltage will allow the pump to work harder and supply more fuel. i have a CDFP upgrade and i will still be talking to my dealership soon to get the reflash done ! are they mailing out letters to those affected, or do we have to bring it in and complain first ??

this is funny... everybody has different conjecture on what the "fix" is....

I think the flash injects genie dust at 1800psi straight into the ecu..lol The new pumps are identical... except for the fairy tears that are used in the coatings. This whole thing cracks me up. We need somebody in Mazda to crack.

You only get letters if its a recall. This is a TSB, which is basically information for the dealer to aid in troubleshooting/resolving a common issue. You have to complain or mention a problem to the dealer to get it done...though a good dealer will just perform the TSB if you ask them.

lol. i'm right on board with bova. it only makes sense. who needs 9's and 10's commanded AFR at WOT, honestly?

Why not do the work yourself and figure it out? Why not have Jon do it?

There is nothing magical about this, its common sence and you all have just been missing it.

Mess with the signal to the ECU from the rail sensor and you will figure it out, hell have Jon mess with it, summer quater should be coming up so he can free up some time to figure it out. The new pumps are not "idetical" and the dump valve makes a huge differnece, just because you have non edjucated persons doing the work for you doesn't mean that there are others not willing to do the work.

When its all done and said, there are more then one way to mess with the fueling of this car. Why has no one messed with the solenoid on the top of the DI pump? Hmmm, I wonder what happens if I take ECU control away from that solenoid? This is where, doing the work and letting others do it for you makes you stand out. Want a fueling solution, figure it out and quit relying on "others" or waiting for someone at Mazda to crack. The solution is right there stareing you in the face, its just trying to get it "right" that makes it a problem.

With the stock turbo, no one. But it sure would help with the bigger turbo guys now wouldn't it?

this was a joke.... back the fuck off dude. You want me to start talking to you the same way you talk to me. im a grown man.... quit mocking me. Its uncalled for.

i dont even get the point of your post other than yet again.... you quote me and make your typical know-it-all snide comments, about how lazy, stupid, or scared I am. im sick of it man. I cant be the only one.

you keep making these underhanded lobs at a few of us and its gonna get redirected. i think we're all giving you a free pass, and the benefit of the doubt because of Anthony.... but youre running out of rope with me.

AND BTW... the reason im not gonna "do the work myself" is because i got wealthy doing my own kind of work. Cars is where tinker. Im not gonna break the ecu, drill my injectors, bore this or crush and nip that... when it comes to my fuel system....I mean seriously... didnt you hook the pump up to a lawnmower engine or something to be your bench tester. Its fucking insulting to insinuate we all have to be capable of backyard ghetto modding..... to be taken seriously around here.

fwiw... i have driven the car with this control taken away from the solenoid. if you would like to know what happens... i'll redirect you to

dec, jan, and fucking feb on my car. taking ecu control away nets you about 16 mpg.... as much fuel as oil in the engine, and fucking 16 a/f ratios.... no power and fucking terrible stutter when you try to go into boost. The pump is WIDEOPEN!!!

Any more questions?

i probably just saved you a whole day of "testing".

why would mazda want to flash the stock ECU for a big turbo?

John, mate. you need to chill man.. you're attacking an admin for no good reason bro.

If it werent for people like Randy, you wouldnt have customers who show up at the shop. Not everyone can or wants to do their own work on their cars.

Mazda did screw the pooch on the ECU and fuel pump. Ive been bitching it about it for MONTHS and knew something in the ECU wasnt right, which i was right about.

I didn't think that was an "attacking" post. you guys are funny.

anyway, I agree with him. they're not going to lean out the maps to fix this problem. they're going to add fuel.

it wasnt attacking...lol it was mocking. And I wouldnt get upset... but he does it with me 10 times a day. he mocked my turbo thread, he mocked my comments in the tsb thread. it IS funny.

i just dont like hopping online and seeing all my posts quoted and then some comment about..... whats wrong with me, or what im doing wrong, or how I need to get my act together, or how disappointed he is. its been going on a while now, im just starting to react to it now.

It shouldn't be happening, period.

I see your point but heres the way i look at it. the issue is the pumps mainly. They arent flowing enough. Why would the first step be to try to make it flow more if its the pump is to blame to begin with? that would only make it worse. possibly even dangerous.

when i add too much fuel on the standback I can get fuel cut. when I take it away the cut disappears.

I say they pull fuel... if the pump still cant flow... they replace the pump. thats my philosohy on this. They left safety margins in the fuel maps... the car runs rich as hell. A solution wouldnt be to make that even worse... it would be to do the same exact thing my tuner would do.

Pull fuel.

Plus.... if they were adding it, i dont think guys would be discussing smoother response and power with their initial impressions of the flash. that would be just the opposite. it would stress the pump even worse.... and theyd lose power from getting "fattened up".

agreed & well said

Randy is right and that is how i figured out my fuel cut when i was first testing the stock pump. When i added fuel the car fuel cut so bad i though i broke it....i then took fuel away and the cut slowly went away but the a/f ratios were going lean.

Think about what you are saying though guys. The car no commands 9s and people run 10s-11s. Personally my car commands 9s and i run mid 12s.....meaning the pump is flowing as much as it could and not getting anywhere near the commanded. The car is not cutting meaning it is still in its safe zone. Flash my car to make it run 11s will still make my af ratio in the 12s....so after thinking about it i dont think that changing commanded a/f ratios will result in anything unless you are cutting out

If the pump is running at near or at 100% duty cycle, wouldn't there also be issues with premature pump failure down the road? Running at 100% has got to put some considerable stress on those mechanical components.

Well where did the 100% duty cycle come from? Remember, this is a MECHANICAL pump.

I think it was just a poor usage of terminology. It's evident he was referring to running the pump at a high rate. Just like running an engine at 7k RPM constantly will cause premature wear, I'd imagine that the pump is no different. But if its design is good and the parts are mechanically sound it shouldn't wear out any faster that the other components in your engine.

Ya sorry, I was thinking about injectors in my head while I was typing it. I just meant if its running at 100% of its capacity, at full speed all the time...

It does. A dump valve releases the extra volume so it all doesn't have to go through the injectors. The Pump is always running at maximum capacity. Its a turbo with no wastegate but a massive bov.

I think sleeper3 is still stuck thinking this thing is electrical. Flowing more current won't make it pump more. It is the basic problem with a cam driven fuel pump. Fuel supply is linear, demand is not.

The testing that needs done now that upgraded fuel pumps are available is on the injectors. I haven't seen anything about the "duty cycle" on them yet. For all we know they could be saturated, causing the AFRs to climb with RPM when you start pushing alot of air in there. At 6000RPM it only has about .005s to inject the fuel needed for combustion.

CPE stated they are roughly in the 40% range for their duty cycle, so theres a lot left to be had on the stockers.

The question is, is that 40% of absolute time or 40% of available time @ XXX RPM?

40% of absolute time would mean you are already injecting over the enitre intake stroke and most of the compression. I dont really think there would be much more to be had. Probably would have to look at a graph of the duty cycle as a car makes a dyno run. If it plateaus at "40%" then that is really all there is to be had.

A 40% maximum of available time would be good news.

Unknown but i think Dada would know more on this because i think the info came from his car when they were pulling down all of the sensor readings.

all I am saying, is I bet if you put a voltmeter on the pump before and after you'd see an increase in teh power being supplied to the pump. it's an easy test. there are no other variables. someone just do it. I'm not going to bother with this, as I am sure the dealer won't touch my car.

The power to the "pump" is actually a pulse width modulated signal to the pump bypass solenoid valve. A longer duty cycle signal is holding the valve open more and reducing the rail pressure. A shorter duty cycle signal holds the valve open less and results in higher rail pressure. A volt meter may not tell you much, an oscilloscope is what you need to see the PWM command.
-enganear

well so far after my flash my AFR's are actually about 1/2 more RICH and in some situations my car will actually dip into the 9's for A/F....... that NEVER happened to me before....NEVER. i also get some sort of cut again now if i go WOT in 5th or 6th gear. not from low RPM either i can be rolling at 4k RPM in 5th, then stab the throttle it will start to pull, then right at the top of my spool up i get some kind of cut. the boost is actually spiking lower than it was during winter too. i only spike to like 22-23psi, during the cold winter months my spikes went as high as 26-27psi and as long as the temps were above 35 degrees i got no cut. this makes me want to agree with laloosh. i think the car is now calling for too much fuel making it cut. it pisses me off thats for damn sure. i'm putting all these mods on....for what, to make the car run like shit ?!

I don't understand that at all. why would it be cutting?

I knew it was going to richen up the mixture though. you don't fix a lean condition by changing the grading scale.

i have no idea why i have logged the cut several times and it looks good, then just cuts with no warning.

i got reflashed today and i didn't see much change at all. i'll be getting the pump installed tomorrow since they had to overnight it. my afr's were still in the 10's and it follows the commanded afr on the nose.

Well good news for you. Hopefully, you will see something different with the new pump.

cmd and act are the same thing. Log commanded from something other then the mazda pid.....

^ Interesting you say that because I use the mazda specific PID's and my actuals and command afrs are usually spot on but at times can be about .5 different. If they are the same I don't see how that would happen...

Example:

http://www.mazdaspeedforums.org/foru.../9/5thgear.jpg

loosh is right, i changed it this morning and the cmd under the mazda pids is the same as actual, i didn't realize that. anyways my car is at the dealer getting fixed now, did some logs this morning prior to new pump then i'll do some after. in the mean time i am stuck driving a slow mazda 6i with steering as sloppy as a whore in manhattan.

correct commanded and Actual under the Mazda are the same reading, i should have said from the non specific Mazda pids!!

well now we won't know if the commanded are different from before and after the flash unless someone else with a dashhawk gets the reflash done.

im sure that will happen

well it was a valid effort lol

You have no old commanded logs ?

probably not. i'll have to look. we could probably just get someone without the reflash on a speed6 to log their commanded afr and compare that way.

[offtopic]hey loosh, my long term fuel trims read 14% as well after the new corksport maf housing.[/offtopic]