Discussion regarding power limitations of the MS3

[cpolly69]

abs works great when you do the "trick" - i smashed the brakes just last week in the snow with the "trick" on and abs went nuts

[bf360]

Originally Posted by superskaterxes lol and dont add 5 deg at a time!!! in the words of a famous tuner, "baby steps, baby steps"

lol missed that 5 degrees part, holy shit, 1-2 at most and make small changes and see where it goes

[kgb]

Originally Posted by kgb I decided to up my timing 5* with 20 psi boost and broke loose my tires for the first time in 3rd gear evah...easily...

I should specify I meant it total over a couple of maps...so 2.5* each map...the second 2.5 * incriment was when my wheels lost traction in 3rd. My car runs smoother than ever compared to the thread I made about it running roughly about a month half ago. Knock is just as good as with stock timing. Now I will say that my gas mileage is shit 24 - 25...not driver mod....is this because extra fuel is being thrown in due to the tune? Hwy mileage at 60 goes between 29.50 - 33 mpg in 6th gear.

I use to get 30+ mpg in the summer!

Originally Posted by kgb I am going to up my timing to 10* at 1.00 load and higher, 3000 rpms - 6500 rpms , lower to 19 psi of boost and test it tommorrow.....it is very cold in Tampa so the 42* weather could be contributing to the tires breaking loose but damn it scared me not expecting tire spin in 3rd gear.

Ya, you guys are probably right, 5* is alot even if I lower boost. I will keep a eye on my parameters and report back in a couple of days with my logs...I am using cld12pk2go fuel tables and and my individual TRL tables are all lower than stock up til 3500 rpms. This is my 85th map and I data log every time I drive the car. I hope this can help us out at least.

Balls to the walls baby!!!

YouTube - I have come here to chew bubble gum and kick ass and I'm all out of bubble gum.

YouTube - I have come here to chew bubble gum and kick ass and I'm all out of bubble gum.

[802MS3]

Originally Posted by kgb I decided to up my timing 5* with 20 psi boost and broke loose my tires for the first time in 3rd gear evah...easily... I am going to up my timing to 10* at 1.00 load and higher, 3000 rpms - 6500 rpms , lower to 19 psi of boost and test it tommorrow.....it is very cold in Tampa so the 42* weather could be contributing to the tires breaking loose but damn it scared me not expecting tire spin in 3rd gear.

ha yeah the tires definitely spin easy in anything below 50 degrees. believe me, I ran them for a while around the temps youre having down there now.

[cld12pk2go]

Originally Posted by kgb I should specify I meant it total over a couple of maps...so 2.5* each map...the second 2.5 * incriment was when my wheels lost traction in 3rd. My car runs smoother than ever compared to the thread I made about it running roughly about a month half ago. Knock is just as good as with stock timing. Now I will say that my gas mileage is shit 24 - 25...not driver mod....is this because extra fuel is being thrown in due to the tune? Hwy mileage at 60 goes between 29.50 - 33 mpg in 6th gear. I use to get 30+ mpg in the summer! Ya, you guys are probably right, 5* is alot even if I lower boost. I will keep a eye on my parameters and report back in a couple of days with my logs...I am using cld12pk2go fuel tables and and my individual TRL tables are all lower than stock up til 3500 rpms. This is my 85th map and I data log every time I drive the car. I hope this can help us out at least. Balls to the walls baby!!! YouTube - I have come here to chew bubble gum and kick ass and I'm all out of bubble gum.

Please post some data logs with the increased timing and your Ign maps.

tks,

[Lex]

Remember that the knock sensor goes deaf above 5700RPM so be careful with timing up top.

[Nliiitend1]

Originally Posted by Ziggo Pressing the button during startup does something, the car feels different pulling out of corners and my lap times are lower with both off. It could just be a placebo effect, but I doubt it.

Bingo.

Like I said, it may do "something," but it doesn't turn your DSC or TSC systems any more "off" than by just pushing the button with the car running...

[Ziggo]

I hate to derail this thread, but I can run pretty consistent lap times, and on corners where I can put the power down the car pulls harder out of the turns and the lap times are lower. I think it may remove or alter the steering angle boost limitation, I will be sure to record a data log of it the next time I run at streets of willow CW. The back bowl has 20º of camber in it so you are full throttle and steering at the exit.

[Nliiitend1]

Originally Posted by Ziggo I hate to derail this thread, but I can run pretty consistent lap times, and on corners where I can put the power down the car pulls harder out of the turns and the lap times are lower. I think it may remove or alter the steering angle boost limitation, I will be sure to record a data log of it the next time I run at streets of willow CW. The back bowl has 20º of camber in it so you are full throttle and steering at the exit.

Well while I've never logged things, I have never been able to perceive a discernable difference in "powering out of turns" (this car has more than enough torque to spin the tires coming out of most turns on-track in my experience).

I believe the "steering angle boost limitation changing with the 'hold and start' method" theory has been disproven as well, but I don't recall if it was on this forum or a different one...

[cpolly69]

there's a thread out there somewhere where someone claims to have data logged the difference in throttle plate position - with it opening more with the "trick" engaged - i remember reading it a long time ago.....i got really interested in this back when i first got my dh, but i don't think i ever logged it...

[djuosnteisn]

HHHHMMMMMMMMMmmmmmmmmm......mmm..m.....m......mmm.

[JMEngineer]

^^ Not a very useful post, but it made me laugh.


I have someone looking at my ecu this weekend. He probably won't have enough time to find anything useful since I need my ecu back for my car to run but he used to be an ECU programmer for Nissan so he knows a few tricks they use to limit stuff.

[djuosnteisn]

Sweet!

[cld12pk2go]

KGB

Still would like to see some data logs of your increased timing runs...

Tks

[kgb]

lol...I'm getting them but wanted to wait and do it in more realistic, moderate weather that I will normally be in. Here in Tampa it's getting into the mid 20's and I want to wait until 60 or higher before I make any runs or determinations....this weather is odd but I will post ASAP...one thing I have noticed is that at idle my AFR never goes above 14.3 and my gas mileage is WAY down but for the couple of pulls I have done my fuel pressure is higher then ever

If you want I will post my map and then post my datalogs later.

*Edit*
Wanted to also mention that while cruising, my AFRs jump from 14 - 15. They were at 14.6 -14.8 before....ok....hope to get some pulls in soon.

[cld12pk2go]

I would have interest in both the 20°F and 60°F logs. It is 22°F here at the moment...

[cpolly69]

kgb, from what i've seen, the idle afr you described is unusual, but the cruising sounds pretty normal - i've noticed my car tried to achieve about 14.69 exactly at idle

[rigor]

so socks went down to cp-e and made a lair out of me .......... it is tuning frigin sweet their is hope !!

now i need to find out if their is a cp-e tuner around here in Oregon

[www.cp-e.com]

Results were beyond what we even expected. We ran the car to 24psi on pump with no meth and made over 100whp and 100wtq more than his car dyno'd when he arrived. We were only able to go to 19psi on the dynojet run because an injector seal popped. 428whp at 19psi was fun to see. Too bad we didnt get to try the 24psi on that run.

[Lex]

Congrats CPE, I look forward to seeing the dynos.

[shpankey]

Originally Posted by www.cp-e.com Results were beyond what we even expected. We ran the car to 24psi on pump with no meth and made over 100whp and 100wtq more than his car dyno'd when he arrived. We were only able to go to 19psi on the dynojet run because an injector seal popped. 428whp at 19psi was fun to see. Too bad we didnt get to try the 24psi on that run.

wow, impressive! looking forward to seeing the dyno's. nice job!

[www.cp-e.com]

dyon's have been posted on our blog

cp-e News & Events

[Lex]

We're seeing some strange behavior on Dustin's car that may lead us down the right path. Past a certain point, MAF corrections no longer seem to have an effect on AFR. It appears as though the car is reaching some sort of ECU limited fueling cap.

More to come as we learn more.

[Fobio]

Originally Posted by Lex We're seeing some strange behavior on Dustin's car that may lead us down the right path. Past a certain point, MAF corrections no longer seem to have an effect on AFR. It appears as though the car is reaching some sort of ECU limited fueling cap. More to come as we learn more.

dude...this is what I've been trying to say, but not in so many words!...I'm glad we're where we are now. =)

[shpankey]

Didn't the Race Roots guys say something like after you reach a certain point you had to upgrade the fuel pump in the tank? Maybe that's it?

[djuosnteisn]

They are not using the conventional setup like stock. Their intank pump is supplying more than the HPFP IMO.

On a stock setup, or stock with upgraded HPFP, a failing intank pump should be evidenced by a drop in fuel pressure.

At least that's what logic would lead me to believe.

[Cataphract_40]

glad to see the community making progress.

subbing, very excited to see what happens over the next few weeks

[cld12pk2go]

Originally Posted by Lex We're seeing some strange behavior on Dustin's car that may lead us down the right path. Past a certain point, MAF corrections no longer seem to have an effect on AFR. It appears as though the car is reaching some sort of ECU limited fueling cap. More to come as we learn more.

I have absolutely seen this behavior recently. Added 3% in the 4-4.5v range and nothing changed. Added another 3% and still nothing...

[Realgib3]

I know this doesnt have anything to do with the wall or the limitations cp-e broke through but... Anyone else see the RMR Soltice drift car? they upped the compression to almost 14.5:1 compression and are making over 500whp... and we thought we ran high compression for a boosted car lol.

[Deadman]

don't know if the solstice drift car has the same motor in it as the normal... but thats the LNF i do believe... DI

[cld12pk2go]

Anyone running over 2.0 load? I logged up to 2.1 today...

Looks like it is just using the timing from the 2.0 load...

[stealthspeed6]

for load do you divide the calculated load by 10 or is there another load value to log? because a log i did today had load of 232 or 2.32 if you divide by 10 but i don't think thats right.

[cld12pk2go]

Originally Posted by stealthspeed6 for load do you divide the calculated load by 10 or is there another load value to log? because a log i did today had load of 232 or 2.32 if you divide by 10 but i don't think thats right.

Divide the logged "Calculated Load (%)" by 100 to make it match the load tables in ATR (example: 180 = 1.80 load).

[djuosnteisn]

Like i've said, i've never seen above 2.0 load, even fully bolted running a 3071 @ 24psi.

[socks]

i had seen that with the ap before.

if i would go too far with the maf scaling, the car would end up stupid lean.

[djuosnteisn]

All this is starting to make me feel less stupid.


I swear, at times out there i felt like a fucking cave man with a computer. Figured i was better off with a horse.


Personally, everything worked fine with moderate power levels, but only became problematic as i upped the power.

[socks]

i would go too far trying to richen the car up, and i'd have to start all over.

kurt (subparpunk) had it dialed in in 2 tries. Get a second set of eyes. what size maf do you have?

with my stock maf housing, i ended up around 390 at 5v.

dustin, gmail. i needz ur stock terbow

[kgb]

Originally Posted by djuosnteisn Like i've said, i've never seen above 2.0 load, even fully bolted running a 3071 @ 24psi.

I have seen 2.0 - 2.01 a couple times when temps were/are under 60 here in Tampa....

[Lex]

Alright, let's see if there's truth to this.

The people hitting the MAF issues (at or above 2.0 load) please log using the DH:

Fuel injection amount
commanded AFR
actual AFR
mass airflow sensor
RPM

Log this in a 4th or 5th gear pull to redline. If it's cold outside it certainly helps.

[SpeedSixxx]

ok im off but i'd like to test me car for u..i don't think I have any issues but if you need I can log those in 4th and 5th to redline.