Discussion regarding power limitations of the MS3

[bova]

i'm not sure if this is everything, if you need more let me know. it wasn't to redline or anything just happened to be logging when i punched it to merge on the highway, i was really logging cruising to see if i could see what was going on when i experienced that PT knock.

[sleeper329]

Originally Posted by Lex ^ We need to find out who the developer was and where it was made. Didn't someone have one of these ECUs open?

In bioevolves thread his pics show the ecu branded by mitsubishi electric corp.

Im on my iphone now so its a
PITA to dobut if we try googleing all the model numbers in the pics u can sometimes get links to where the parts are from. It might be a place to start?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[kore2000]

found this: dSpace information

Just scanned it, didn't read it completely through but it list Mazda as a customer and they do ECU development.

[reddeerspeed3]

you guys are an insane think tank. good fucking job to all of you. although CP-E will probably never confirm it, i think you guys are on the path to figuring out whatever they did. and if haltech can get the program to change the ecu's logic and core programming, we can make it do whatever it needs to, just like a standalone ecu. mad props to you all, i wish i had more parts on my speed to be able to help with the logging and stuff

/nutswinging

[Dano]

no f-ing shit. I know nothing...never said I did....just read this thread [linked from 12pks Journey] and my lower jaw is bouncing off my keyboard. You guys are certainly engineers...papers or not....engineers none the less!!!!

Me...just trying to get my 3-3.5K boost spike to go away and my AFRs to get down to 11ish early and stay out of the 10s later...all the while you guys are comming up with ways to choke 400G/s airflow [random number here for effect, have no idea where you are at] into the MZR!

.....i love this game!!!!

[cld12pk2go]

Originally Posted by Dano2010 no f-ing shit. I know nothing...never said I did....just read this thread [linked from 12pks Journey] and my lower jaw is bouncing off my keyboard. You guys are certainly engineers...papers or not....engineers none the less!!!! Me...just trying to get my 3-3.5K boost spike to go away and my AFRs to get down to 11ish early and stay out of the 10s later...all the while you guys are comming up with ways to choke 400G/s airflow [random number here for effect, have no idea where you are at] into the MZR! .....i love this game!!!!

This is pretty much a ME/EE zone of competency. I am just trying to contribute whatever a lowly chemical engineer can.

But, yeah lots of smart people contributing to this thread in an effective problem solving manner...

[Lex]

Some of the closed loop max throttle tables (B, C, D) in OTS maps limit it to 75%. I know they may not be used and that at WOT the car is not in closed loop but we've always found a few surprises.

Have you guys changed all the closed loop throttle tables to 100% or more?

[fjames]

Originally Posted by Lex Some of the closed loop max throttle tables (B, C, D) in OTS maps limit it to 75%. I know they may not be used and that at WOT the car is not in closed loop but we've always found a few surprises. Have you guys changed all the closed loop throttle tables to 100% or more?

You're confusing me - the purpose of those tables is to define the transition from CL->OL. So you want to lower them if anything. Are we talking about the same thing? Just want to keep the community info straight and not confuse anyone any more than absolutely necessary.

[Lex]

Originally Posted by fjames You're confusing me - the purpose of those tables is to define the transition from CL->OL. So you want to lower them if anything. Are we talking about the same thing? Just want to keep the community info straight and not confuse anyone any more than absolutely necessary.

I was perusing through ATR and saw the tables and thought 75% sounded much too familiar. Have you adjusted them at all James?

[fjames]

I lower them as do many. There was a thread a looong time ago where Christian was quoted as saying it was something to try. A lot of tuners on different platforms do some version of it to get control of fueling (get it to OL sooner.)

For me it's just "good practice," I can't say I notice anything, but it's hard to "notice" the absence of a negative lol.

[Fobio]

Here are 3 logs from today...it's unseasonaly warm here today at 2 degrees celsius.

The 2nd WOT didn't hit redline cuz of traffic.

Hope this helps.

[JMEngineer]

The thread about the AP not opening the TB all the way was interesting but I really don't think it has much to do with 'the wall'. It might help a little up top but I still think the same limit on max power will be there.

cp-e stated that the AP can't access the part of the ecu that sets the wall but I'm not sure I believe that. I do believe there's a good chance the wall is set by a table that the CURRENT AP software doesn't show. (I'm not saying cp-e lied, just that what they said and what they really meant aren't quite the same thing)

As far as I know it is entirely possible that the AP can't access every ecu table because it plugs into the OBDII port - can anyone verify that the OBDII connection has access to the entire ecu?

If that is the case and we can't get around the wall with the AP, there is still a chance we can break the wall without a flash. Sometimes when things like this are designed, they design in an easy way to get around certain things. It might be as simple as pulling something off the ecu circuit board or soldering in an extra resistor somewhere.


If anyone can find a complete wiring diagram for either an MS3 or MS6 - please post it
If anyone can get a wiring diagram for the ecu or info on the components - please post it

I'm going to look for information on the components in the ecu and see what I can find. I know there's an FPGA in there and I have some FPGA programming experience but I have no idea what software is used to view/edit what's on there or how I would even wire it up if I had the software.

Let's figure this out!

[Fobio]

the way I've been reading it, it seems like ATP/AccessTuner Pro has access to more tables than are available under ATR.

[bova]

so is anyone else hitting load targets like i am?

[Deadman]

what map bova? You still using same map as me from while ago?

[JumpingJackson]

Originally Posted by JMEngineer cp-e stated that the AP can't access the part of the ecu that sets the wall but I'm not sure I believe that. I do believe there's a good chance the wall is set by a table that the CURRENT AP software doesn't show. (I'm not saying cp-e lied, just that what they said and what they really meant aren't quite the same thing) As far as I know it is entirely possible that the AP can't access every ecu table because it plugs into the OBDII port - can anyone verify that the OBDII connection has access to the entire ecu? If that is the case and we can't get around the wall with the AP, there is still a chance we can break the wall without a flash. Sometimes when things like this are designed, they design in an easy way to get around certain things. It might be as simple as pulling something off the ecu circuit board or soldering in an extra resistor somewhere. Let's figure this out!

What bothers me is CP-e says Cobb AP cant do it as a blanket statement. Which is false, it may not be able to do it in its current form but Christian @ Cobb is *very* confident they can fix it. They are devoting resources to it right now. (Among other things they are working on for the AP like properly working MIL deletes, 3 bar map sensor (char datatype issue))

[kgb]

Originally Posted by Fobio the way I've been reading it, it seems like ATP/AccessTuner Pro has access to more tables than are available under ATR.

I know nothing about dyno's and the software used but would it be worth while for all of us interested to chip in and buy it and let the "think tank" figure things out?
Does it requrie certain "dyno only" hardware?

Geez, I have never had a sport or sporty car before but all of this seems like a lot of work...is this normal... even for a relatively new model?

[djuosnteisn]

I don't think that is necessary right now, or ever really lol. AFAIK, cobb is in motion, we should just wait to see what comes of it.

[Fobio]

Originally Posted by kgb I know nothing about dyno's and the software used but would it be worth while for all of us interested to chip in and buy it and let the "think tank" figure things out? Does it requrie certain "dyno only" hardware? Geez, I have never had a sport or sporty car before but all of this seems like a lot of work...is this normal... even for a relatively new model?

AccessTuner Pro, the version that tuners use is like $25K...it's far from open-source...lol...

AccessTuner Race, which is what we use at home is FREE...

[8.5MS3]

Originally Posted by Fobio AccessTuner Pro, the version that tuners use is like $25K...it's far from open-source...lol... AccessTuner Race, which is what we use at home is FREE...

AccessTuner Pro is 2 grand....

[kgb]

Sheeeettt...thought it was around ~1000.....ha...ha.

But obviously we are not going to get the same level of software the professional tuners use. So what they are getting - what we will get = Coveted ECU Tables? I hope not. Wait and see I guess for Cobbs next software updates.

[bova]

Originally Posted by Deadman what map bova? You still using same map as me from while ago?

um i'm not sure, i'm kind of on my own custom map. as you can see from my log that i hit like 2.2 load, sometimes i'll hit 2.3 while my target is about 2.08 in 4th.

[fjames]

Cobb has an obvious conflict to mange with ATR and Pro tuners. My theory is that's part of CP-E's announcement - forcing Cobb's hand, making them do something to keep ATR people happy while endangering their relationship with Pros. Facts and Truth aren't the same thing. Saying AP can't do something, doesn't mean it never will (as JJ pointed out.)

[JMEngineer]

I think I remember being quoted $2000 for AccessTuner Pro, but the price isn't the only issue here. You have to show proof that you own a tuning shop or have unlimited access to a dyno and Cobb has to be convinced that you know what you're doing - I think you have to do some kind of phone interview with one of their tuners.
And once you buy it I think it has to be registered to a single computer.

I have access to a Mustang dyno and a DynoMite/DynoMax water brake dyno but it's a research lab, not a business...


The version of ATR that's out now is still ATR 'beta'. Hopefully they will eventually release a version for <$200 that gives us access to all the tables we want. That shouldn't be a problem for them since they could bring in a lot of money with that and the Pro's will still be able to create the best tune for most people.

[integrrac]

I'm somewhat of a noob to the speed3 community but 2 things/questions come to mind when i'm reading this thread. Feel free to jump in and teach me a thing if I'm not understand it right.

I know direct injection is a different thing than on other imports that go for big numbers but everytime i hear about someone modifying a 4g63 they go huge on injectors. Why has no one tried going bigger on these? or is there something that i don't know about the ones we have and some obvious way to see they are no where near their max capability? I mean it seems to me that if the injector is staying open too long and that's why it's running rich then why not make the injector bigger and leave it open shorter? That's the idea with getting a bigger turbo right? You can run the same PSI and flow more air. Everyone has the psi boosted behind it but if the injector can't open any more or any longer, wouldn't we benefit from going bigger? What do our stock ones flow? Anyone I've known that modified a Mitsubishi gets like 600-1000 cc injectors, can ours flow that well stock? Like i said I am noob so don't jump on me if i've got something wrong here.

The second question is why has no one done cams? I hear, big turbos, i hear higher fuel PSi, at some point though maybe there an efficiency loss at the head/cams because they simply can't flow more for that duration. What would the limit be on those if you subtract all the crazy shit our ECU does.
Like I said i'm a noob so if there is something i'm not understanding about looking at these as options please tell me. All day i read about how there is some wall that everyone is hitting and I don't see anyone doing bigger injectors or cams which are super common on other cars going for bigger numbers. It seems like everthing "looks" nice data log wise while tuning, AFR, Timing/KR, Turbo PSI. So you tune for 20 psi then you tune to 25 and gain nothing, either your turbo is out of its efficiency range or the air its making isn't getting into the cylinder like restricter plate racing.

[kore2000]

Injectors -- Only one set of larger injectors exist and SSInstaller is never letting those go. So far, no one has stepped in to make them

Cams -- Already been done by PTP, although I think 06Speed6's are better.

[integrrac]

Originally Posted by kore2000 Injectors -- Only one set of larger injectors exist and SSInstaller is never letting those go. So far, no one has stepped in to make them

What do our stock ones flow and what size are SSInstaller's?


What Gains were seen from the cam?

[kore2000]

We don't know what the stock injectors limit is because no one has reached said limiit and I don't know what gains were seen from the cams. I don't think there has ever been a dyno of them yet.

[JMEngineer]

the limit of the stock injectors will depend on how much pressure they can handle

[integrrac]

Originally Posted by kore2000 We don't know what the stock injectors limit is because no one has reached said limiit and I don't know what gains were seen from the cams. I don't think there has ever been a dyno of them yet.

I didn't ask what the limits of them are, I was asking how much they flow. On hondas and evos 1000cc injectors are good for around 400-600 hp right? Well I can't see a stock car coming with anything nearly that large so if we knew how much they flowed you could easily calculate the potential HP they can support. . . .

quick and dirty Fuel Injector Calculator from WitchHunter Performance

looks to me as if you would need 830cc or bigger working at 80% for 400 hp.

I keep hearing that no one knows the limits because no one has reached them. Does the APorDH read duty cycle on the injectors? What are people hitting? Is no one getting very high in the duty cycle of the injector? Basically I'd love to know how no one knows the limit when you can see things like duty cycle or flow rate, if the stock injectors are hitting over 90% duty cycle, i got news, you've hit the limit. I can't picture mazda throwing such big injectors on a car where to use them beyond 50% duty would require a bigger turbo. I mean ask any one that goes big on another platform, big turbo, big fuel pump, big injectors.

Like i said if there is something specifically about how the DI works that makes the flow a different story please tell me. I'm not saying this is the answer I just want to know more about why its not something people talk about.

[802MS3]

the measuring of the injectors for PI and DI are totally different.

socks hit well over 400whp on the stock injectors, with an upgraded CDFP, and dual Walbro's. His injector seals started to go though, and PTP has addressed that.

[integrrac]

Originally Posted by opt_ms3 the measuring of the injectors for PI and DI are totally different. socks hit well over 400whp on the stock injectors, with an upgraded CDFP, and dual Walbro's. His injector seals started to go though, and PTP has addressed that.

Ahhh, what is different about them? I understand the difference between PI and DI but I have no idea what that means for the difference in injector. It just struck me as something that never comes up on this platform and is always talked about on others. I know DI is different but i couldn't imagine Mazda throwing on some injectors that could support well over 400hp stock.

[phantom3]

Originally Posted by integrrac Ahhh, what is different about them? I understand the difference between PI and DI but I have no idea what that means for the difference in injector. It just struck me as something that never comes up on this platform and is always talked about on others. I know DI is different but i couldn't imagine Mazda throwing on some injectors that could support well over 400hp stock.

our injectors can handle way higher PSI because they inject into the cylinder.

Take two injectors, both the same cc, and run one at 80psi and the other at 2,000psi... which will deliver more fuel?

[FreeFlyFreak]

Originally Posted by phantom3 our injectors can handle way higher PSI because they inject into the cylinder. Take two injectors, both the same cc, and run one at 80psi and the other at 2,000psi... which will deliver more fuel?

Not to mention we have 4 of them.

[phantom3]

smart ass

[integrrac]

Originally Posted by phantom3 our injectors can handle way higher PSI because they inject into the cylinder. Take two injectors, both the same cc, and run one at 80psi and the other at 2,000psi... which will deliver more fuel?

Fair enough, but "how much more" would be my question. Port injection keeps the injector on longer in some cases up to 720 degrees of rotation, DI sprays for a much more exact time and shorter rotation so it would make sense they would have to flow MORE to hit the same power level. I just find it hard to believe no one knows where the max is for these engines and no one knows anything about the injectors. I'm not saying that's the wall people are hitting I'm just interested in learning more.

[phantom3]

IIRC the injectors can get in the neighborhood of 2,500psi. I believe someone said they are good to 600hp. But I could be way off.

Edit: Keep in mind these engines are an entirely different beast. PI has been around forever hence why it's so easy to work with. DI Is a new ball game.

[Lex]

It's a little more difficult to flow test injectors that require such high pressure (for gasoline). Further, no one has ran into what they see as fueling issues. Even further, the way fuel is atomized and mixed in DI and PI is different so you can't really use the same principles applied to PI.

[integrrac]

I knew it was different I just didn't realize how much so.

[SpeedSixxx]

Originally Posted by integrrac I knew it was different I just didn't realize how much so.

yeah..this is me being a dick...but...

go search and read about our DI system and injectors.
I can't stand going into a thread and RE reading what almost all of us already know.

It's awfully anoyying.

our injectors are totally diff from PI.....stock injectors flow at idle from 450 psi to wot almost 1800 psi...aftermarket hpfp can flow near 2000 psi.

with ecu adjustment 2200 psi is doable. have fun applying PI injectors info to DI injector info and getting a # out of it.