Discussion regarding power limitations of the MS3

[kore2000]

You were also a newb once Speed

[SpeedSixxx]

Originally Posted by kore2000 You were also a newb once Speed

yes...and to many I still am a noob =)

it's all good, sorry for being a cock! but I always look thru the forum before I ask questions.

[turd burglar]

what'd pt-p do with the injector seals exactly? and when will these new seals be released? and not to bring up a sore subject but any news on socks' situation?

[phantom3]

Originally Posted by turd burglar what'd pt-p do with the injector seals exactly? and when will these new seals be released? and not to bring up a sore subject but any news on socks' situation?

Seals are all ready available.
PTP Injector Seals

[turd burglar]

hmm damn musta missed that lol ill have to order these and put em on when i put on my pnp'd mani. here car take some more of my money please

[integrrac]

Originally Posted by SpeedSixxx yeah..this is me being a dick...but... go search and read about our DI system and injectors. I can't stand going into a thread and RE reading what almost all of us already know. It's awfully anoyying. our injectors are totally diff from PI.....stock injectors flow at idle from 450 psi to wot almost 1800 psi...aftermarket hpfp can flow near 2000 psi. with ecu adjustment 2200 psi is doable. have fun applying PI injectors info to DI injector info and getting a # out of it.

I've been reading as much as i can over on the mazda3 forum for months and just found this one like a week ago, sue me.

[madvillain]

Just to liven this thread back up...


I can't wait to see what kind of results some of these guys see in the near future with adding dual in-tank pumps. The more I look around the forums of other platforms the more common it is. Cobb even just added two 255 walbro's to their gtr for more fuel.

thoughts.. anyone?

[turd burglar]

this car costs too much to make power. thats my thought lol

[djuosnteisn]

Puts the "wall" in "wallet"

[Fobio]

madvillain...I think along the same lines as you...let's look at what others are doing with their DI system...

Porsche's DI in the 911 Turbo runs 2000psi DI...

Ferrari's DI in the 458 runs 2900psi DI, with secodnary fuel @ WOT, plus 3 scavenge pumps to control air pressure in the crank case...

[phantom3]

mmmm.... cosworth dry sump...

[turd burglar]

lol lets buy race car tech parts to make a fast daily driver!

[JMEngineer]

DI tuning.... it's a bitch.
I think we need access to a lot more tables in ATR to really be able to control what's going on in these cars. There is a lot that can be done with DI that doesn't work with PI and I'm guessing it's gonna be a while before Cobb (or anyone else) has it all figured out.

For example, with DI you can advance the timing on the exhaust port, start injection during the exhaust stroke, and shoot gas straight out the exhaust port. It sounds stupid but there is at least one purpose for it. To reduce emissions when the car is cold, post-cylinder ignition (yeah, I just made that term up) can be used to get the cats up to operating temp quickly. When you first stomp on the gas to accelerate, a similar technique could be used to spool the turbo faster.

If that technique is used to spool the turbo, the engine might have to run lean for a split second to have enough air to burn the extra fuel. I know it's really 'out there' but if our ecu is programmed to do this, that could cause an engine failure when you add breather mods and don't adjust whatever table is controlling that situation.
Even if someone managed to log an engine failure, we still might not be able to see what really happens - at 3000rpm the engine is rotating 50 times a second and something like this might only be programmed to happen for 1 or 2 cycles.


If our cars do anything like this I would definitely like to be able tell it to stop dumping fuel when the car is cold. It's not warming up the cats because there aren't any cats to warm up - it's just wasting my gas.
(FUCK YOU ENVIRONMENT!)

[madvillain]

I know cobb is still working on the platform, and is working with a company with us here today. I'm getting more and more confident that good things are to come, and that cobb has not left us quite yet.

[hnda etr]

Originally Posted by madvillain Just to liven this thread back up... I can't wait to see what kind of results some of these guys see in the near future with adding dual in-tank pumps. The more I look around the forums of other platforms the more common it is. Cobb even just added two 255 walbro's to their gtr for more fuel. thoughts.. anyone?

I don't think anyone's proven that the OEM in-tank pump is pushed beyond it's abilities...

Until someone can push enough fuel through the injectors to need more fuel from the in-tank, what's the point?

[SpeedSixxx]

Originally Posted by Fobio Ferrari's DI in the 458 runs 2900psi DI, with secodnary fuel @ WOT, plus 3 scavenge pumps to control air pressure in the crank case...

now thats just a little too much BS to do.

ferrari been makin crazy hp cars, crazy fast cars without all that nonsense..so why now all this extra BS and in a 458? a car that isnt even as crazy as an enzo or his lil faster brother F430...

[Fobio]

Originally Posted by SpeedSixxx now thats just a little too much BS to do. ferrari been makin crazy hp cars, crazy fast cars without all that nonsense..so why now all this extra BS and in a 458? a car that isnt even as crazy as an enzo or his lil faster brother F430...

I agree...when I read that list of shit they did, it sounded more shadetree/Nator than any other supercar I've read for a long time...and the funny thing was I knew exactly what they're trying to do and why...lol...

gawd dang MS3 and its cheap-ass supercar drivetrain...lol...

[SpeedSixxx]

i just read up on the 458 and it looks like a pretty sick car.

we had DI way before those guido's!

[Nliiitend1]

Originally Posted by SpeedSixxx now thats just a little too much BS to do. ferrari been makin crazy hp cars, crazy fast cars without all that nonsense..so why now all this extra BS and in a 458? a car that isnt even as crazy as an enzo or his lil faster brother F430...

Actually, I believe the 458 is supposed to be faster than both the Enzo and the 430 Scuderia (in top speed) and I think it's supposed to be quicker to 60 than the Enzo, all while achieving somewhere around 20 MPG.

I believe the engine in the 458 also set a new world record for highest specific torque and possibly highest specific horsepower (not 100% sure about that) for a naturally aspirated production engine...

Not exactly something to sneeze at.

[SpeedSixxx]

Originally Posted by Nliiitend1 Actually, I believe the 458 is supposed to be faster than both the Enzo and the 430 Scuderia (in top speed) and I think it's supposed to be quicker to 60 than the Enzo, all while achieving somewhere around 20 MPG. I believe the engine in the 458 also set a new world record for highest specific torque and possibly highest specific horsepower (not 100% sure about that) for a naturally aspirated production engine... Not exactly something to sneeze at.

after that lil rant I researched on the car and ...wow i'll take one.

[JMEngineer]

I have confirmed that our ecu does have features built in that are DI specific. One feature we have for sure is the quick cat warm up - it changes the injection and ignition timing to create extra heat to warm up the cats quickly to reduce emissions. I don't know if these features contribute to power limitations but I would still like to be able to turn them off since I don't have any cats to warm up.

I've also confirmed that the ECU does intentionally limit power. I haven't been able to squeeze out any info on how power is limited or what it's based on but I thought it might help to know for sure that it was intentional and not some fluke limitaion of the ECUs capabilities.

[Dano]

power limitation is intentional IMO.....two words...big brother.....he is watching and doesn't want us to go fast and waste energy/increase emissions. LOL

[FORZDA 1]

Originally Posted by JMEngineer I have confirmed that our ecu does have features built in that are DI specific. One feature we have for sure is the quick cat warm up - it changes the injection and ignition timing to create extra heat to warm up the cats quickly to reduce emissions. ...........

Do you have the source data for the changed ignition/injection timing difference in DI? Essentially all late model FI cars have a cold start routine where the car is in open loop, high idle speed, rich mixture, advanced camshaft and ignition timing all to put high heat out the exhaust and into the 3-way cat, etc. Is there something more than this?

[djuosnteisn]

Care to share the data that gave you confirmation?

[06Speed6]

Originally Posted by JMEngineer I have confirmed that our ecu does have features built in that are DI specific. One feature we have for sure is the quick cat warm up - it changes the injection and ignition timing to create extra heat to warm up the cats quickly to reduce emissions. I don't know if these features contribute to power limitations but I would still like to be able to turn them off since I don't have any cats to warm up. I've also confirmed that the ECU does intentionally limit power. I haven't been able to squeeze out any info on how power is limited or what it's based on but I thought it might help to know for sure that it was intentional and not some fluke limitaion of the ECUs capabilities.

+1 we need infoz.

[JMEngineer]

Originally Posted by FORZDA 1 Do you have the source data for the changed ignition/injection timing difference in DI? Essentially all late model FI cars have a cold start routine where the car is in open loop, high idle speed, rich mixture, advanced camshaft and ignition timing all to put high heat out the exhaust and into the 3-way cat, etc. Is there something more than this?

It's the same idea but you can do a lot more with the injection timing - fuel is injected even after the intake valve is completely closed. I got to see a temperature vs. time plot for the system on our car vs. the regular 2.3 and our system only took about half the time to reach operating temp.

Originally Posted by djuosnteisn Care to share the data that gave you confirmation?

I don't have any data - this is direct info from an inside source. I got to look at a couple graphs and tables but I didn't get to keep anything or take any pictures.