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Drop-in forged internals Ok so I you're not familiar with the term drop-in internals, it pretty much means that instead of pulling the entire engine and tearing it down and rebuilding it completely, you pull the head and drop the oil pan to swap the pistons, rods, bearings and gaskets (preferably with better head studs). Its done without machine work to the block besides honing the cylinders. I've done this quite a few times on 4G63's but I dont recall seeing anyone having done it on here. Usually it takes me about a weekend working at a comfortable pace to get this done. Have any of you done this? And if so what combination of internals, bearings, gaskets and hardware do you recommend for best OEM fitment? I was considering Eagle H-Beam rods with Wiseco Pistons (stock bore & wrist pin size), with ARP head studs and an OEM gasket kit. Thoughts...opinions? |
No stock block with nitrous? |
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May do a small hit in the neighborhood of 20-25hp on stock block above 3500 rpm but it makes me uneasy haha. |
I dont think anyone has really done this because usually the block itself has a hole. So they have to pull. Also this would only work if you know the engine block is 100% good right? or else you might have a warped deck on the block and you cant machine the block while in the car. I think just the variables of people haveing blown blocks and all that limits how many would even attempt doing it this way. |
Wouldnt it be just easier to pull the motor? |
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If you do this, I want to watch. |
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I was wondering the same thing. Definitely subbed to I this. I mean really all I want is stronger rods and head studs just like you |
As long as the bore isnt damaged it would probably be ok, I dont know that it has been done on this engine before because nearly everyone blows then builds or they buy a second block to build then swap. |
Hmm interesting i hear a lot of ppl dropping internals this way but never on the mzr platform subbd for info |
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Tom u go for it, do a write up and let us know. I wouldn't mind doing this as well. You can get a rigid hone that will remove some bore taper but I don't have an answer on a warped deck or how you'd know it. Tappin |
Do that shit And do a write up |
Intersting idea.. I have heard of this being done, but not for performance applications. Not saying that it shouldn't be done for a perfromance application, as long as everything is fine with the head and deck....go for it. |
I think @dougefresh needs to look at this idea. he doesn't have a hole in his block and he could easily see from below if the bores are okay. It may not be a weekend thing considering you'd have to pull the head, so you're talking timing verification, disconnecting a whole lotta shit, new head gasket, new head studs, etc. etc., but it's doable. |
No machine work at all? Makes me a little nervous. |
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Interesting... |
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Edit: unless increasing the displacement is a goal |
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I'd be worried about proper bearing clearances... With my builds, the rod caps had to be shaved down slightly to reduce the size of the bearing bore so the engine wouldn't hemorrhage oil. This issue arose with Carillo rods and OEM bearings. I believe @djuosnteisn has the same issue and fixed it with a coating on the bearings. |
I would want the rotating assembly balanced, but that's me. I wouldn't advise it. I'm not saying it won't work . I would just prefer it balanced. |
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Yea i think the bearings would be the biggest challenge. Would be a pain in the ass trying to set the clearences with everything still in the car wouldnt it? |
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The crank should already be balanced, relatively speaking. Bearing clearances could be an issue because you wouldnt know if the crank is worn. I havent tried this in a car engine, but on small engines I have unbolted the rod caps in the middle of the down stroke, rotated the crank to bdc, measured the bearing clearance, then rotated the crank back up to the rod and bolted it back in. Its not real hard to do and it would let you know if you need to coat the bearings or source some oversize bearings. |
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long story short that motor would have spun the bearings in .003 seconds when it was started. lol don't know if the newer coating on the 08 STI crank made the clearance tight but it would have been ugly real fast. he then ordered some under sized bearings from ACL. .001 under sized IIRC which should put him at .0017-.0020 this is all new to me but I think I have the correct amount of zeros in those numbers :) This was all done with a bore gauge not plasti guage so no way to do that with the motor in the car....at least not on the mains. |
He isnt swapping mains, the rod bearings can be measured. |
Interested in this as well. By the waty, is there a benefit to increasing displacement? |
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God damn Tom you got a lot of shit back on that car already! Can't wait to see this play out. All platforms need pioneers and I'm glad ur taking this head on should be good stuff. This is formerly AdrenalineRush btw. |
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I wouldn't rev this type of swap out to 8K by any means but the OE redline or 7K ish should be fine. no? |
Subs |
Just a note, Ill be tossing on my Zex kit with a 35hp nozzle at the end of the month on stock block/ 25PSI K04 and dont have too much concern. Are you intending to run more nitrous than that? |
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I'd be doing more so that I'd be able to spray at a lower rpm without fear of bending or ejecting a rod. Also, connecting rods generally are balanced +/- 1 gram Quote:
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If you do this i suggest the CP pistons as i put them in my motor and they do not require you to bend the piston squirters. (i have read that the Wiseco pistons do) The do run a tight .0035 wall clearance so without over boring it they might be loud untill they warm up. As for the rods i went with K1 with stock OEM bearings and so far everything is good. I checked the clearances of all of them (i forget now what each was) and they all were within spec. |
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There is also balancing each end of the rod and we will be doing that and getting them to within .5 of a gram iirc. Getting the whole rotating ass balanced as well. Pully-crank-FW This is also going to be a high compression setup, somewhere around 9.5 iirc Should be fun. For me, I like to put in some gen2 pistons if you can get them cheap, w k1 rods and call it a day. For you and nitros I would replace the pistons fo sho. Tappin |
Heres a way you can check the deck of the block yourself at home |
Keep in mind if you want a fresh surface for the rings (which frankly was the thing everybody was told to do with new pistons/rings, but isn't so much necessary anymore based on the new tight tolerances), Sears sells a cylinder bore hone kit that you throw on an electric drill. I knew a guy who built SR20's, and any block with clean cylinder walls, he'd use that on with great success. I agree that bearings can be measured in the car, rod bearings, and if anything, have the piston/rod combo assembled prior to installation and balanced to match weight as best as possible. |
Anyhow see if this works... I got a video for checking cylinder bore too. They are all from that 100 series blueprinting youtube series. good stuff for a DIY to see if the block is good. |
That guys entire series of vids are great. I ran across them about a month ago I have them all bookmarked. |
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I'll probably have a few friends whom are very experienced in engine assembly help me with this if/when I decide to do it. Even though they're not familiar with the MZR themselves engines are universal in theory and application. Also, I'd like to avoid moving the oil squirters so it seems CP pistons are in order opposed to the Wiseco pistons I originally intended. I'm not a fan of the K1 rods strictly because they're not of the stronger H-Beam design, and if I'm loading the car up with nitrous at low RPM's I need the peace of mind lol. |
Lol. I may be off on the comp ratio. How about a higher Than OE comp ratio? He's already on E w 1200cc top feed injectors. |
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Gen2's, per Mazda's literature, come with Forged Rods and Forged Crank from the factory. Pistons are hyper I believe. |
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Forged does not = strength |
Just stating the literature...not debating over the effictiveness of aftermarket selection. I know the aftermarket is superior in metallurgy, design, and strength :) |
In for future fail.. I kid, if you need any help lemme know |
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Well, since I spun a rod bearing about a month and a half ago and required a new crank and rods and etc. I could be interested in giving this idea a shot possibly. waiting on the new rods to show up so I can take everything to get balanced and then it's game on again :) |
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I saw that, I read the thread earlier on my phone and saw the tag. anyways, depending how I feel at the time when it comes to start rippin' apart my car I'll decide if the motors coming out, or if I would want to give it a shot with it in if you haven't already. depends how lazy I want to be about it :) I'm giving the Eagle rods a shot this time too. although the K1's were damn nice, I cant buy just a single K1 so, I went with Eagle H-beams this time. it's been two months almost since my cars ran, shit's making me depressed now. |
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OE is 8:2 I believe ( according to him) so although not a "high" comp motor it's higher than OE. Tappin |
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Also, what pistons are you running? |
Subs for.... Poor Compression |
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CP Pistons link: CP Pistons Mazdaspeed 3 MS3 Mazdaspeed 6 MS6 |
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No Poor Compression as in... Installing new Pistons into an engine that has not been machined... and thus not holding compression because the rings are not seated properly... |
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https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-E...ompression.jpg |
Stock is 9.5:1 Do allows u to run higher comp ratio on boosted cars |
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I agree that machining is not always necessary. Someone mentioned using gen2 pistons. Is there a difference between gen1 and gen2 pistons? Second, forged, yes there's a difference. Our stock rods are forged powdered metal, if I remember correct. Aftermarkets are either forged or billet. Again, I'm thinking if all the surfaces are good with no scoring (they should be), then you should be good to go. However, you may need a week or so downtime because you'll need to measure for bearings, order bearings, and perhaps have the bearings coated to make sure clearance is within spec. But, if you get the pistons/rods assembled with rings, make sure they're balances as best possible, I don't see how you'll have any issues throwing them on the crank. As people mentioned, stock crank and harmonic balancer are pretty well balanced from factory. If I were building a motor and had the money to spend, I'd have it all balanced, but I'd also have the crank knife-edged and cryo'd. Knife edge to minimize friction with the oil and splashing as well as reduce weight, and cryo'd for additional strength. Then of course have the crank, pistons/rods/pulley/flywheel/clutch all balanced together. |
Gen2 pistons are dished which promotes better atomization and flame front travel. I will have to look up 06speed6's compression numbers but I think you guys are getting static compression confused with dynamic compression. What the piston manufacturer states their pistons are is not what compression you will have in the cylinder. in the scoobie example his weisco's are 9:8:1 and in the car he will be running 9:2:1 our cars compression calculates out to 8. something with OE cams. BRB |
8 seems rather low. We'd be pretty damn sluggish off the boost with 8:1 compression..........that doesn't seem right. Remember, the OEM compression rating isn't referring to the pistons. |
Here is one post but not the one I was looking for. I guess it doesn't really matter which compression ratio you quote but everyone does need to be on the same page and I for one think you need to be referring to Dynamic ratio but who knows...lol so we are somewhere between 8:1:1 with no VVT and 8:58:1 at full advance OE cams Quote:
ok here is the post I was looking for which just has more "what if's" for LSA. Quote:
http://www.mazdaspeedforums.org/foru...tml#post318778 |
Bearing clearance seems to be the biggest issue so far. That's why I'm waiting on Jesse to assume his engine with the eagle rods. Well, that and the head. I hate fucking timing chains. I suppose itd be smart to swap the vvt shit while it was all apart |
lol where does it end...get a DCR VVT if your going there. yes it does seem that the oil clerenes are a big unknown for us thus far...some are way lose [Dustin] some are way tight [jesse]. There are alot of rod bearing combos so the only way to know is measure. |
I'm gonna try and get my hands on a spare long block so that I can experiment with some shit. Don't know when I'll get one but this way I can spec everything out then just do the swap in the car (and by that I still mean the drop-in internals) fuck pulling the engine. |
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The dynamic compression ratio for this setup with my aftermarket cams is 8.0:1 which is the middle of the acceptable range of 7.5:1 and 8.5:1 for pump gas engines. Anything less than 7.5:1 is bad for power and torque and anything above 8.5:1 will generally knock on pump gas. back in the day I had a 302 with 10:5:1 pistons and had to run either C12, C14 or I could get by on a mix of 93 and C12 if I retarded my advance...and to do that you turned the distributor....lolololol |
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Where's Pablo? |
you do know we haz turbos that increase the compression ratio way beyond 8:5:1 right? my quotes are from 06speed6 and the work he did on his MZR. |
In looking at that thread, I find the following very interesting too: Quote:
http://www.mazdaspeedforums.org/foru...23/index3.html |
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lol...I'm not sure of the definition of "stock block" in the 1K HP story. If its the motor I am thinking about its a MZR block with PI head and only the "block" is stock....not the internals. Meaning no girdling or gussets added to strengthen the block itself. I could be totally wrong but god 1K HP would be insane on our rods and long stroke. still interested to see the end of this "drop-in" story...be it Tom or Jesse. |
Im running ~2.2 load at 2000rpm, stock block and turbo, zero knock. I am also running ~30* max cam advance from idle to about 1500rpm because there isnt enough oil pressure to keep the vvt from hitting its internal stops. |
I calculated the static compression ration on my built motor....piston was .050" in the hole, 13.5cc inverted dome on the wiseco piston...and I can't remember the combustion chambers off the top of my head, but it calculated out to 9.49:1 with the stock .039" 3 layer head gasket...change to a 5 layer cometic .070" gasket and I think it brought it down to around 9.2:1 |
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No fear though...N2O is right around the corner. |
Jar jar jar jar... i'm late to his party. Quote:
You'd certainly want to at least check the clearances of the new rod bearings. Quote:
Doing a rod swap in the car sounds risky, and kinda difficult. But i guess it's doable. I just think it invites a lot of opportunity for "fail". But shit... what doesn't lol. If you do it Tom, lots of pics mandatory. Quote:
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Rockauto link: 2007 MAZDA 3 Connecting Rod Bearing Itd be more than just a rod swap though. Bearings, gaskets, pistons, head studs and cylinder hone are pretty much everything I associate with a drop-in internals swap. The rod bearings seem to be the biggest issue here still. Besides my inexperience in removing and working with our cylinder head but whatever, I'll figure this shit out lol. |
Fucking DOPE. I'm gonna order a set of those 10 unders for a build i'm doing right meow. Bout time, i've never even heard of DNJ before lol. And honestly man, the time spent pulling the motor would probably be more than worth it to do all that work on a motor stand. But i'm rooting for you, wanna see it done in car. You have my number, if you have any questions at all :) When is this gonna happen? .... and man... $30 seems awfully cheap for bearings. |
Sure those arent mzr journal bearings? I believe they are smaler than mzr-disi bearings. |
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500whp is pretty impressive for the stock head, im not so sure its impressive for the stock bottom end. I ballparked the stock head around 420whp or 475-480ish crank before it becomes a restriction and you are way past that. |
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I dont know, its been pushed over 1000hp in that drag car. Ide say 600 to 700 daily would be very impressive, at 500hp in a 4 cylinder we are already we are already showing off one of the top oem short blocks ever produced. |
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Not sure on the time frame yet. Preferably after jesse gets his together so I have an idea about what bearings to buy for the Eagle rods. I'm hoping before the April track rental if I can swing it financially though. |
I looked up those rod bearings and they are for the n/a 2.3 and it has a different rod bore diamater. |
So.... back to coating lol. |
I'm speaking with maperformance about his bearing issue now. |
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it's been work and going 3 times a week for therapy so it hasn't left me much time or ability at this point. Ideally I'd like to spend this coming weekend getting a bunch done if possible, beer and pain pills should make it interesting. I'll be using Wiseco pistons, same as I used with the K1s. I still have perfect compression in the motor, just a spun bearing in cyl#1 cyl walls still look perfect. hell, the other 3 rods are perfect haha. I'll be sticking with all OE gaskets and bearings hopefully. minus the head gasket, I'll be throwing on a Cometic this time. I'll see how the Eagles match up with the bearings when I get everything, last I checked the rods were being cut then shipped out to me. |
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