dun dun dun... its cursed

[mrlilguy157]

Phil agrees, the black ride is cursed. I give up. Many of you know i had some problems about a month ago. I had a shop throw in a used motor and the car is running top notch. it also looks nice now that i've got my roof rack and new wheels on.

i tore apart the forged, built motor and this is what i found.

excuse the blurryness. the iphone doesn't like my oily hands.






the arias piston took a dump in the middle of a 10 hour road trip... randomly. the chunk put a hole in one of the exhaust valves. fortunately, the block is still in great condition and the head is very usable with a new valve.

i don't know how, why, or what happened. i never heard anything, just drinking tons of oil at one point. now it all makes sense.

[SSinstaller]

any chance you had a valve float and hit the piston? Is the valve bent at all...

[mrlilguy157]

valves not bent at all. all of the valves are perfect condition. i think the only reason there is a hole in the valve is because the chunk that severed off actually left a part of the piston 'lifted' and 'raised' up, which knocked continuously banged the valve at tdc.

[phailerider]

that makes me feel great about the damn pistons i just installed ... wth

[Laloosh]

fucken bullshit...how does a forged piston crack like that

[mrlilguy157]

Originally Posted by palerider that makes me feel great about the damn pistons i just installed ... wth

Originally Posted by Laloosh fucken bullshit...how does a forged piston crack like that

yea. i'm disgusted. i've got plans for these pistons. you guys will see it hopefully by the end of the week.

[jhershorin]

outta curiousity do you ever watch your egt's?

when I was dealing with hiboost they royally screwed something up and my pistons where completely chewed on top...not cracked like that though...just looked like a puppy had nawed the outside face of the wiseco pistons

none the less a forged piston should not have that happen

[mrlilguy157]

yes, i've had an EGT gauge for about 10 months now, BEFORE the motor was even built.

i've had egt, oil pressure, boost, and aem wideband for quite a while... its all a mystery.

[Darksun280]

stock pistons ftw. funny thing is I've seen that happen to stock cobalt ss/sc pistons. there nortorious for chipimg like that

[mrlilguy157]

if someone is going forged, CP has my vote. thats probably a rash decision based on emotion, but BLAH! this is lame.

also, since I suppose this is one of the first built motors to be pulled, i WOULD recommend getting the skirts coated, you can see the surface wear on these pistons where they've been tapping the sides of the cylinder walls.

yes phil - get some H-beam forged rods with the stock pistons and feel good about 420ish whp capabilities, if the hypereutectic pistons will do it.

[boosted3]

so ur saying just get the pauter rods and keep the stock piston.All these bad news make s me wana through in the \towel

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by boosted3 so ur saying just get the pauter rods and keep the stock piston.All these bad news make s me wana through in the towel

all the sweeter for those of us who stay the course. and thats not knocking jon. he made the right decision for himself, i think.

[Deadman]

so how do we solve this issue! ?

[mrlilguy157]

Originally Posted by boosted3 so ur saying just get the pauter rods and keep the stock piston.All these bad news make s me wana through in the towel

you'll have to get the pauters from the GI thread by PG, no pauters work with the stock piston...

Originally Posted by palerider all the sweeter for those of us who stay the course. and thats not knocking jon. he made the right decision for himself, i think.

i made the right decision for my circumstances. i'm happy. i would love to see randy or anyone else with this setup do well.

[bf360]

Originally Posted by boosted3 so ur saying just get the pauter rods and keep the stock piston.All these bad news make s me wana through in the towel

i know right, i feel like this is quite possbily the hardest car ive seen to make decent power
shit i think my moms minivan could make more power easier

[CaptainKRM]

like i said on the phone, and its critically important here and should not be ignored before we dump on Arias here - if the rings were not gapped right, and they were too close and bound up, that is exactly what is going to happen to a piston regardless of its made of jello or aluminum. so before we all get scared shitless and looking for pieces of the sky to fall, there is plenty to consider here. now that i am actually seeing a picture of what we were talking about, i am all the more convinced that its a likely possibility.

like i said on the phone earlier - i would call the machine shop and asked them what they gapped the rings to. Arias has thier own spec for that. Mazda has thier own spec for that. If you are on an extended trip, where the engine is nice and hot, and that ring expands, end gap touches to the point where it binds up, the force is going to travel somewhere and pressure will be exerted somewhere. I have CP pistons in one of my own car where I personally failed to gap the rings. And it came out looking just like that.

The mantra that its ok to gap rings too much is really really true. I'd rather burn a bit of oil than run tight gap on an engine where I know I'm going to be boosting on it, beating on it, making it hotter than Hades or even just taking trips on it. A little oil burn can be dealt with. Cracked ringlands in pistons cannot.

i'm not trying to come across like an asshole here, but it seems alot easier to trash a part from one photograph than it does to truly assess the situation from every angle. and that is neither a logical approach, a fair approach nor is it one that really does the progress of the community any bit of justice. i know what we gap our rings to and set our cylinder wall tolerances to, and i have yet to see a short block we've built with this setup come back like that. its very important to know if, frankly, your machine shop fucked you over. either with ring gap, an improper hone, or just poor measurements. i don't believe in curses. i do believe in human error.

furthermore besides the point, if it could be determined that the piston was faulty, i guarantee you Arias would take care of you, if you were to go that route.

[06Speed6]

The top ring gap could definitely be a cause, but to cause a failure like that it would have to be way off. I don't know what those pistons call for, but if ring expansion caused that I would be tempted to say that there was no gap at all. The ring would have to expand to fill any gap and then keep expanding to deformation and press itself against the top and bottom of the groove with enough force to break the ring land off. Epic fail.

A ring that causes that type of failure is going to score the bore and generate enough heat to burn itself, if there isn't any scoring I would be tempted to look somewhere else for a cause.

You should consider sending it in to Arias to see what they say about it.

[boosted3]

Originally Posted by palerider all the sweeter for those of us who stay the course. and thats not knocking jon. he made the right decision for himself, i think.

well not everyone got tons of money to through away sorry buddy.

[Haltech]

Originally Posted by 06Speed6 The top ring gap could definitely be a cause, but to cause a failure like that it would have to be way off. I don't know what those pistons call for, but if ring expansion caused that I would be tempted to say that there was no gap at all. The ring would have to expand to fill any gap and then keep expanding to deformation and press itself against the top and bottom of the groove with enough force to break the ring land off. Epic fail. A ring that causes that type of failure is going to score the bore and generate enough heat to burn itself, if there isn't any scoring I would be tempted to look somewhere else for a cause. You should consider sending it in to Arias to see what they say about it.

Looks like a weak piston to me... either the material recipe was off when it left the factory or there was a shit ton of detonation. I would go with the material in the piston as the cause.

Ive seen rings fail and never have they blown a chunk off the piston like that. Ive even ran an engine at 16 psi of boost, cracked ringlands, 100 shot of nitrous, for 8500 miles and the piston was still usable, although i changed them out.

I dunno man, you were cursed from the get go, is what im believing.

[mrlilguy157]

detonation wouldn't lead to this i dont think... as i stated, when the effects of this were felt, was on a 1400mile road trip (700 each way)

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by boosted3 well not everyone got tons of money to through away sorry buddy.

well thats fine... it doesnt grow on trees for me either. but for me im committed. the vision of a streetdriven, direct injected, 500whp ms3 is something that im taking to the grave. i will do this thing. even if it takes me years.

[mrlilguy157]

Originally Posted by palerider well thats fine... it doesnt grow on trees for me either. but for me im committed. the vision of a streetdriven, direct injected, 500whp ms3 is something that im taking to the grave. i will do this thing. even if it takes me years.

with a big enough maf i could see that happening in the next 3 months.

vws current best - 606whp.

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by mrlilguy157 with a big enough maf i could see that happening in the next 3 months. vws current best - 606whp.

all the issues with our motor builds is whats concerning me. if i get that knocked out then the skys the limit.

[Laloosh]

or you can run 23 psi on a gt35 and forget the entire built motor problem....oh wait did i say that outloud hehe

[bf360]

Originally Posted by Laloosh or you can run 23 psi on a gt35 and forget the entire built motor problem....oh wait did i say that outloud hehe

gtfo

do i even want to know what traction is like? lol

[CaptainKRM]

Originally Posted by Haltech Looks like a weak piston to me... either the material recipe was off when it left the factory or there was a shit ton of detonation. I would go with the material in the piston as the cause. Ive seen rings fail and never have they blown a chunk off the piston like that. Ive even ran an engine at 16 psi of boost, cracked ringlands, 100 shot of nitrous, for 8500 miles and the piston was still usable, although i changed them out. I dunno man, you were cursed from the get go, is what im believing.

no one is saying the ring failed. i am saying the rings were not gapped enough. i have seen rings bind up and shatter a piston entirely. when you have pressure like that, from expanding steel as thick as a ring, build up then bind up in several directions at thousands of rpm, i don't care what a piston is made of, its going to break. that it broke just above the ring land with the thickest piston ring should give cause to at least consider it. i've showed this picture to more than a few 'experts' if you will without even telling them the story or what happened to the engine and that was the first thought out of thier mouths collectively.

that said, and like i told jon, if he wants me to go to Arias and back him up and fight on the side of having a bum piston, believe me i will do it for him regardless of what i personally feel or think. at least then, if he gets a free set of pistons out of the deal, he can sell them and recoup some of the pain and cost in doing so.

[Haltech]

Originally Posted by CaptainKRM no one is saying the ring failed. i am saying the rings were not gapped enough. i have seen rings bind up and shatter a piston entirely. when you have pressure like that, from expanding steel as thick as a ring, build up then bind up in several directions at thousands of rpm, i don't care what a piston is made of, its going to break. that it broke just above the ring land with the thickest piston ring should give cause to at least consider it. i've showed this picture to more than a few 'experts' if you will without even telling them the story or what happened to the engine and that was the first thought out of thier mouths collectively. that said, and like i told jon, if he wants me to go to Arias and back him up and fight on the side of having a bum piston, believe me i will do it for him regardless of what i personally feel or think. at least then, if he gets a free set of pistons out of the deal, he can sell them and recoup some of the pain and cost in doing so.

Well i do believe Jon took that car to a competent engine builder who specializes in rice, so i cant see this guy fucking up something as simple as ring gap. Engine builders do that in their sleep all day long. Its nothing special to do on a day to day basis of engine building.

Like i said, we all seen different things and anything could contribute to that piston failure, even a bad material of casting for that piston. JE, CP, Weisco,Manley, all of them have had a bad batch of pistons in their day. If your experts say its because of a tight ring gap, than ok. We all have our opinions on the subject but it doesnt fix the problem with Jon's engine.

Needless to say, it just sucks to have seen this happen considering all of the $$ he dropped into this thing. Its not giving anyone a warm fuzzy running this combo Ken.

[06Speed6]

I never said anything about a ring failure, but a ring gap problem should leave a score in the bore and that has not been noted. Until I see some type of bore damage I am not inclined to think that it is a ring gap problem.

Detonation can do that type of damage and god knows we have detonation on this engine.

[ms3guy22]

So lets see what happens with us other people with built motors. Very few people have posted once their motors were built. It should take awhile, but we will see if it is the pistons or human error.
I'm with palerider, i'm gong to make this car work no matter what! even if i have to have mriliguy as my pimp on the weekends for money.

[mrlilguy157]

i'll let you guys know what the gaps were once i find my receipts back in dallas.

[CaptainKRM]

Originally Posted by Haltech Its not giving anyone a warm fuzzy running this combo Ken.

we've been running this combo in engines since August 2007. if people with those engines and others since then run out en masse with problems, sound red alert. until then, there is no reason for speculation that borders on false panic.

besides that, the stock piston spec forged rod we are having made is almost finished, and i know there are people that are going to be jumping all over those. and we have two different suppliers to pick from this time.

[ptperformance]

And I know what causes this now. After blowing 3 motors and one build unit with pistons I have now found what is causing this. The solution will be coming with everyone of our built motors.

Sorry to hear that this happend to your car but expect to see this happening to many built motors over the winter. If any moderators want to contact me on this I will share it with them and them only. Hal, call me or PM me on this. I know what is causing it and that is why we sleeved the motor and cut the quench open.

I suspected this was going to become an issue and thought that my pistons were just a freak problem, not the case.

[ptperformance]

Originally Posted by CaptainKRM we've been running this combo in engines since August 2007. if people with those engines and others since then run out en masse with problems, sound red alert. until then, there is no reason for speculation that borders on false panic. besides that, the stock piston spec forged rod we are having made is almost finished, and i know there are people that are going to be jumping all over those. and we have two different suppliers to pick from this time.

Its not the parts, is the assembly and design that need to be changed. The higher compression should be dropped for a lower unit (this would help a ton) but the overal problem is not the parts.

[JimmyMac]

So if you know the problem, why are you keeping it secret? Why not help the community? Or are you just out to help yourself?

[Breakdown81]

I smell dookie round here.

[boost_me]

Originally Posted by palerider well thats fine... it doesnt grow on trees for me either. but for me im committed. the vision of a streetdriven, direct injected, 500whp ms3 is something that im taking to the grave. i will do this thing. even if it takes me years.

see... shit like this is the reason why i'm going to keep on keeping on...!

lead the way palerider.... i love my MS3 and none can change that!



...well maybe an evo X @ 350 a month with 0 down...
:l augh2:

[JimmyMac]

$350 a month and 0 down? Really? I wonder how much insurance would jump.....

So what's this fix? Timing? Head work?

[phailerider]

my car is running as of tonight. the previous issues seem to be eliminated, which is what we had hoped. car goes on the dyno tomorrow afternoon. im curious what the supposed problem is.

[bf360]

Originally Posted by ptperformance And I know what causes this now. After blowing 3 motors and one build unit with pistons I have now found what is causing this. The solution will be coming with everyone of our built motors. Sorry to hear that this happend to your car but expect to see this happening to many built motors over the winter. If any moderators want to contact me on this I will share it with them and them only. Hal, call me or PM me on this. I know what is causing it and that is why we sleeved the motor and cut the quench open. I suspected this was going to become an issue and thought that my pistons were just a freak problem, not the case.

posting something like this is bs, ive tried to keep your shop in good faith but come on how can you not let people know what you think needs to be done?
We need to go into this together, if not this community will get no where

[mdogg]

Originally Posted by ptperformance And I know what causes this now. After blowing 3 motors and one build unit with pistons I have now found what is causing this. The solution will be coming with everyone of our built motors. Sorry to hear that this happend to your car but expect to see this happening to many built motors over the winter. If any moderators want to contact me on this I will share it with them and them only. Hal, call me or PM me on this. I know what is causing it and that is why we sleeved the motor and cut the quench open. I suspected this was going to become an issue and thought that my pistons were just a freak problem, not the case.

more pointing out what is wrong with the "everyone else" and offering zero solutions?

par for the course it seems...