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 Old 03-31-2010, 03:46 PM   #1
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Default EGR delete survey

I've mulled over the pros and cons of an EGR delete for a while.

Some will quickly tell you that the great advantages of keeping the intake clean are ... well great. This is true. Soot, carbon, etc will shorten the life of the motor, may pre-ignite, can even cover the valve seating surface and cause poor compression. Those are all pros to doing it.

However, in spite of popular belief, EGR actually cools combustion temperature (at part load) and REDUCES knock in most engines by inserting an inert gas (exhaust). This may not be the case with the Speed as it seems to cause it more than anything.

I am sure many of you have noticed that after a long highway cruise, going WOT causes instant-mega-KR. Some motors have died this way. Once this shot of detonation happens, going WOT again doesn't cause it until after another cruise period. Rinse and repeat.

So I want to hear first hand the experiences of those that HAVE removed the EGR. I don't care about CELs etc - I want to know how the car runs. More knock? Less knock? Were you able to eliminate the dreaded highway cruise knock by taking out the EGR? Aaron said this has worked for him.
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 Old 03-31-2010, 03:50 PM   #2
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i thought egr only recirculated at wot?
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 Old 03-31-2010, 03:52 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by phillyb View Post
i thought egr only recirculated at wot?
EGR valve is only open during light loads. Not at WOT (because it reduces power) and not at idle (because it causes for unstable idle).
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 Old 03-31-2010, 03:59 PM   #4
 
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I just deleted mine a few weeks ago, but the car hasn't been driven much since. I will have more impressions to offer by the end of this weekend.
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 Old 03-31-2010, 04:00 PM   #5
 
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i have it done. for a long time now. car feels the same. i only ever see .35 or .70 knock but i couldnt tell you if that is a before or after affect of the egr delete
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 Old 03-31-2010, 04:02 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by JmkC View Post
i have it done. for a long time now. car feels the same. i only ever see .35 or .70 knock but i couldnt tell you if that is a before or after affect of the egr delete
Have you had the highway knock when going WOT I described in the OP?
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 Old 03-31-2010, 04:04 PM   #7
 
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Originally Posted by Lex View Post
Have you had the highway knock when going WOT I described in the OP?
Nope never that i can recall, longest trip i have driven with my car was 3 hours in once direction
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 Old 03-31-2010, 04:04 PM   #8
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ive had it forever. ive never had phamtom knock on the highway. i get bad PT knock sometimes and NEVER knock at WOT, EVER. my egt gauge is enough to tell me when my motor is warm or not. i even use it to tell when my car has cooled down so i can shut it off.

egr is for emissions and emissions only.
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 Old 03-31-2010, 04:05 PM   #9
 
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Default Re: EGR delete survey

Subbing hopefully more comment
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 Old 03-31-2010, 04:10 PM   #10
 
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my auto book says that EGR can help prevent detonation and increase spark advance on cruise level loads (more efficient)

if detonation is caused by heat and pressure, adding more nitrogen oxides (the point of the EGR) would (im guessing?) help to richen the mixture under these low load types and decrease knock w/o injectors adding more "new" fuel into the mixture?

what about the heat from the exhaust gas recirculating? im sure it cools down quite a bit from the time it was combusted to the the time it makes its way through the system and back into the combustion chamber.

i dont know.. looking for more understanding here if you have it. thanks.
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 Old 03-31-2010, 04:15 PM   #11
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Ive been noticing when I get on the freeway for the first mile I will get lots of knock if Im cruising in high gear. Maybe its a lot of things but Ive noticed that when I get into cruise on the freeway (6th at sub 3k rpm) I will get a VERY high knock in the first mile or so.

I live less then two miles from the freeway. So, its possible that the first mile knock is due to the ECU seeing cruising speed and trying to use timing and EGR to get better efficiency.

Now, a couple days ago I thought "Ill ride it out see how long it goes" well, it knocked up as high as 5.5ish and went for longer then 15 seconds and thats when I finally clutched for a second. Then put it back in gear and the knock goes away.

This happens any time I drive less then 2 miles to get on the freeway. I do not boost, I do not go over 3k RPM and I do not go over 80% load. Yet I still get this crazy knock.

I think the ECU trys to max out the efficiency levels far to soon on the engines. This has been getting worse as my gas mileage has gotten better. Im at ~6800 miles and getting about 26 mpg (where as for the first 3-4k where about 18-21mpg).

Here is the kicker. If I do these exact same things (load, rpm, etc) on side road but at slower speeds/gears for the first 4-5 miles the car does NOT knock. Get on the freeway after that and its smooth sailing (other then the "pings" of 0.1-0.5 here and there as its adjusting).
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 Old 03-31-2010, 04:23 PM   #12
 
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This car makes me nuts, I just sit there and stare at the dashhawk as I'm driving. I get pt throttle counts of 0.4 or 0.7 in almost every gear every time I take off from a stop light. This ONLY happens if I'm driving like a vagina, giving it as little throttle as possible. If I pt. throttle boost it (1-2psi) no knock, if I go WOT, no knock. I rarely every get anything above 1.0, and have never seen anything above 2.5 I don't think
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 Old 03-31-2010, 04:28 PM   #13
 
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I've had it deleted for a year or so, no adverse effects. I get ~7KR of phantom knock while cruising on the highway (started with CPE flashes -_-), but that said I get no KR at WOT at 21psi. I don't get the code because I removed it with the AP, I just have the CEL light on all the time, no biggie.
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 Old 03-31-2010, 07:10 PM   #14
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I always get phantom knock for the first 2 miles of a highway cruise, usually all the way up to 7 degrees. I just let the ECU do its thing. Like it has been said before, you should be able to hear knock if its bad. Maybe the ECU is extra extra extra sensitive at cruising speeds?

I haven't done the EGR delete, but I'm really close to doing it (and the teflon IM gasket). I found a shop that said for inspection they'll pass me for anything.
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 Old 03-31-2010, 07:32 PM   #15
 
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my speed6 is also like this on the highway, on normal roads doesn't do it, but as soon as i'm getting on to the highway there it is, then after a mile or so its gone. for me i think it has more to do with everything in the engine bay getting up to running temp.
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 Old 03-31-2010, 07:46 PM   #16
 
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Mine never goes away sadly. I constantly have 6-7KR with any load on the engine. If I go WOT, instantly 0 KR. lol I guess it's better then the opposite of that! Just disappointing because I can't use my DH alerts. I still blame the CPE flash I got as that was when it started.
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 Old 03-31-2010, 08:15 PM   #17
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EGR replaces some of the oxygen content in your intake charge with already "burnt" gas. This means you get less burn, less power, less chance to detonate.

I am not talking about phantom knock.

I am talking about cruising for 30 minutes. Then stomping on it. The first time I do this I get a big stumble and knock. If I continue going WOT, it's fine. If I cruise again for 30 minutes, I can make it happen again that first time I go WOT.

Essentially, after a cruise on the hwy, if I go WOT, I get very high KR, car stumble, puff of smoke. This only happens after the car has been cruising for a while. This is knock at the onset of WOT, not "phantom" or low load knock.

I think lost of people get this and that's why we see speeds blow on the hwy.

I have a feeling the EGR gases may be related as during cruise EGR is running.
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 Old 03-31-2010, 08:16 PM   #18
 
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Yeah I know, I don't get that. As soon as I go WOT I have 0 KR. Whether that has something to do with my EGR delete, I can't tell you, I don't remember.
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 Old 03-31-2010, 09:20 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Lex View Post
EGR replaces some of the oxygen content in your intake charge with already "burnt" gas. This means you get less burn, less power, less chance to detonate.

I am not talking about phantom knock.

I am talking about cruising for 30 minutes. Then stomping on it. The first time I do this I get a big stumble and knock. If I continue going WOT, it's fine. If I cruise again for 30 minutes, I can make it happen again that first time I go WOT.

Essentially, after a cruise on the hwy, if I go WOT, I get very high KR, car stumble, puff of smoke. This only happens after the car has been cruising for a while. This is knock at the onset of WOT, not "phantom" or low load knock.

I think lost of people get this and that's why we see speeds blow on the hwy.

I have a feeling the EGR gases may be related as during cruise EGR is running.
if i have been cruising for a while i never go WOT on the hwy. but when i get off i almost always get about 2.5-3 after pulling outta the first stop/light. it repeats maby once or twice then its fine.
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 Old 03-31-2010, 09:22 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by superskaterxes View Post
if i have been cruising for a while i never go WOT on the hwy. but when i get off i almost always get about 2.5-3 after pulling outta the first stop/light. it repeats maby once or twice then its fine.
Seems like a similar issue. Did removing EGT make any difference?
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 Old 03-31-2010, 09:36 PM   #21
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tbh i did EGR delete like 2 years ago haha. from as long as i could remember its been like this. someone needs to do a before after like now and see if they can measure any diff over a few weeks.

my EGT gauge is a huge indicator of engine temp. i know what temps correspond to what on the hwy and streets and i can usually gauge the KR by that.
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 Old 03-31-2010, 09:39 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by superskaterxes View Post
tbh i did EGR delete like 2 years ago haha. from as long as i could remember its been like this. someone needs to do a before after like now and see if they can measure any diff over a few weeks.

my EGT gauge is a huge indicator of engine temp. i know what temps correspond to what on the hwy and streets and i can usually gauge the KR by that.
So you're noticing higher KR when EGTs are high?

EGTs are a good indication of combustion temperature ...
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 Old 03-31-2010, 09:44 PM   #23
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Is the EGR controlled via vac lines or electronic. If its electronic and we can find the states of the EGR line it wouldnt be very hard to make an on/off switch and then this kind of testing would be easy.
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 Old 03-31-2010, 09:45 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by NRSpeed View Post
Is the EGR controlled via vac lines or electronic. If its electronic and we can find the states of the EGR line it wouldnt be very hard to make an on/off switch and then this kind of testing would be easy.
PWM valve.
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 Old 03-31-2010, 09:52 PM   #25
 
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Lex you have a catch can too right?
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 Old 03-31-2010, 09:53 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by JumpingJackson View Post
Lex you have a catch can too right?
Sure do.
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 Old 03-31-2010, 10:01 PM   #27
 
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subbing for knowledge...
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 Old 03-31-2010, 10:07 PM   #28
 
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What would you guess is causing this? John @ PTP says on his PCV relocate kit beta testers it has completely eliminated this phenomena.
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 Old 03-31-2010, 10:17 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Lex View Post
PWM valve.
Ok, so no signal should be 0% EGR. Only issue would be impedance the ECU would see (and probably throw a code if you just unplug the EGR). Im guessing finding the resistance of the EGR and fooling the ECU should work like a block of plate for testing.


Originally Posted by JumpingJackson View Post
What would you guess is causing this? John @ PTP says on his PCV relocate kit beta testers it has completely eliminated this phenomena.
Now Im just guessing at this, but the reason I brought up the first mile knock is its possible its related to EGR (in combination with other MPG+ functions). For example running slightly rich due to not up to 100% temp and thus getting unburnt gas in the exhaust which is going back into the intake via EGR.

I dont know, I mean there could be a million reasons but thats what I was thinking when I made the first post but I failed to clearly state what I was getting at.
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 Old 03-31-2010, 10:28 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by JumpingJackson View Post
What would you guess is causing this? John @ PTP says on his PCV relocate kit beta testers it has completely eliminated this phenomena.
Looking into this. Is Jon talking about the WOT KR on the hwy or is he talking about part throttle KR while cruising? Part throttle KR is just due to the ECU calibration and not a worry.
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 Old 03-31-2010, 10:28 PM   #31
 
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WOT KR after cruising
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 Old 03-31-2010, 10:29 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by JumpingJackson View Post
WOT KR after cruising
What is his reason for his kit solving the issue? That's the key.
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 Old 03-31-2010, 10:34 PM   #33
 
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Basically the design/location of the plastic cover on the crank case allowing crap to pool during cruising conditions.
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 Old 03-31-2010, 10:40 PM   #34
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i have my own home brew PVC relocate thats identical to johns and i still get it.

and lex i can def correlate my EGT's to knock. but isent this like completely normal? i mean higher combustion temps would be a dead giveaway for some knock.
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 Old 04-01-2010, 07:15 AM   #35
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JJ, While there is some merit to what Jon has done, I am not convinced this "cures" the issue. People with catch cans and EGR delete should have similar results to this with very little pooling in the IM.

Super, in terms of higher combustion temps leading to detonation - yes - higher temps would promote hot spots, detonation etc. It is normal for EGTs to be higher during highway cruise - even for NA port injected cars.

I am trying to decide if the motor design and injection/ignition strategies promote these hot spots to form during cruise that then always lead to detonation when cylinder pressure increases. I am curious what would happen if we sprayed meth (at cruise) for a few seconds before going WOT - if that would be enough to cool things down to prevent this condition.

As for the EGR valve - I will take a look at the factory manual this weekend and verify if this can be done with a simple unplug and load resistor so the ECU doesn't complain.
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 Old 04-01-2010, 07:36 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by Lex View Post
JJ, While there is some merit to what Jon has done, I am not convinced this "cures" the issue. People with catch cans and EGR delete should have similar results to this with very little pooling in the IM.

Super, in terms of higher combustion temps leading to detonation - yes - higher temps would promote hot spots, detonation etc. It is normal for EGTs to be higher during highway cruise - even for NA port injected cars.

I am trying to decide if the motor design and injection/ignition strategies promote these hot spots to form during cruise that then always lead to detonation when cylinder pressure increases. I am curious what would happen if we sprayed meth (at cruise) for a few seconds before going WOT - if that would be enough to cool things down to prevent this condition.

As for the EGR valve - I will take a look at the factory manual this weekend and verify if this can be done with a simple unplug and load resistor so the ECU doesn't complain.

SS installer proved that theres like 4 diff conditions under which the EGR works and it would be near impossible to mimic it to get the cel to clear.
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 Old 04-01-2010, 07:41 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by superskaterxes View Post
SS installer proved that theres like 4 diff conditions under which the EGR works and it would be near impossible to mimic it to get the cel to clear.
There are several faults. One is for poor flow and one is for no connection to the valve. If you just use a resistor on the plug and leave the valve in there, you'd just get the poor flow code which everyone with a delete gets anyways.
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 Old 04-01-2010, 07:42 AM   #38
 
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your guy's cars are wierd.

I went to tampa last weekend (1 hr 45min drive). I had zero knock from the time the car got on the highway to the time it merged off. i didnt even knock after the first light. I rarely get .5-.7 knock at PT daily driving on the street and thats about it. Never any KR at WOT either.
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 Old 04-01-2010, 07:48 AM   #39
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I have just done this last night...car threw a CEL just idling on the hoist, but the ECU wasn't resetted...

I can attest, that you will NOT be able to tell difference, no matter how "accurate" your butt dyno is...and that wasn't what I was looking for either...

Funny thing is, I had to unmarry the AP after a short romp cuz I have to leave at the dealer's today for 72K service, coolant flush and fill (this is actually a very good deal since being on the local board gives me 15% discount...also, our cars use that FL-22 coolant that IS NOT like the regular stuff found in Walmart...so for $90 - 15%, why not? esp since they do it proper with a flsuh machine)

So after I unmarry the AP, the CEL went away, but I expect it to come back eventually, as per aaron's experience.

I feel better with the PTP EGR plug in tho...I've had a OCC for the longest time and I hardly get much oil in it anymore esp with the replaced turbo now. Last drain, it was mostly water, likely from the winter.

I never ever cruise in constant rpm for more than...5 min, at most...I'm either walking traffic or passing..."officier, I don't mean to drive like a dick, but my car might blow if I drive like a sane person..." So I can't say I have SPECIFICALLY observed the KR after cruising...
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 Old 04-01-2010, 08:09 AM   #40
 
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here is my take on KR after cruising then WOT. So you are cruising and the car is doing its best to achieve great MPG's for you. Well when you go WOT its still using that ignition table for best MPG's so you'll see KR at first until it realizes hey this isn't the ignition table i should be using. something like that.
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