EM Stage III+ Clutch Review

[Tomas]

Correction: This is a stage III + clutch

This clutch can be used with the stock dual mass flywheel which is the main reason I went with it.
Pictured below is the flywheel condition after about 36K miles and 15-20 HPDE days. I didn't see any scarring or major discoloration so I cleaned up the surface and that's it.

According to the instructions Stefan at Eagle Motorsports sends witth the clutch it requires a minimum of 500 mile break in period in slow RPM shifting.

Install: exactly the same as stock. The tears and suffering happen when you drop the gear box but once that's out installing the clutch is cake.

Clutch disc: Clutch is more grabby than stock. Not a lot more but you do feel the difference.

Clutch Feel / Pressure plate: exactly the same as stock. The PP supplied with the clutch is the same as the LUK stock one.

First drive: besides the grabbier engagement there seems to be a very slight pulsing of the disc at a certain rpm when taking of from a stil stand. Not sure if this is due to imperfections on the stock flywheel or something else but it is barely noticeable.

Overall the clutch seems to be working fine so far. The real test will be in two week once its broken in and I take the car to the track again. Will see if it holds 30 mins of lap after lap driving in 100 deg heat.

[superskaterxes]

lol new cluch looks like it has felt for material hahaha

stefan, i thought all the PP's were the same pressure no matter what your stage was?

[Tech/Sales@EM]

That is actually a Stage 3+ Not a 2 first of all. Segmented Kevlar on one side and Feramic on the other. The pp on the other hand is and OEM plate. Plate clamp load is ~2040lbs. The pulsing that you describe is completely normal for the materials. It is a shudder but thats exactly what will happen the further up the line you move in clutch materials. Just try to let it grab as quick as you can and let it do its job

[Tomas]

Originally Posted by Tech/Sales@EM That is actually a Stage 3+ Not a 2 first of all. Segmented Kevlar on one side and Feramic on the other. The pp on the other hand is and OEM plate. Plate clamp load is ~2040lbs. The pulsing that you describe is completely normal for the materials. It is a shudder but thats exactly what will happen the further up the line you move in clutch materials. Just try to let it grab as quick as you can and let it do its job

Question: what would be the difference if you had kevlar on the flywheel side and ferramic on the PP side? I know there are some clutches that offer kevlar on both sides and I hear when kevlar wears down it does not scratch the flywheel.

[Tech/Sales@EM]

Just the way it engages. Thats the only difference if we switched the sides. It is done sometimes when people run aluminum flywheels however. The stage 2 is kevlar on both sides but we put feramic one side to increase your ability to hold power.

[Alpha]

Subbed for post breakin impressions as this is the setup I want to run too!

[Tech/Sales@EM]

I actually use the same materials in my personal S4 with a 2800lb pp.

[laxplayermjd]

stefan making a killin selling clutches!

[Docnox]

That clutch looks great. It'll be nice to hear about someone putting it to the test.

And the stock flywheel still looks mint in that picture.

[Tech/Sales@EM]

^ Same clutch being put to the test. FWD to 45sec

‪2000 s4‬‏ - YouTube

‪2000 s4‬‏ - YouTube

[zenger]

subbed for post 500 mile drive results

[jwilkins88]

How much power will this clutch hold? I was planning on going with a CM clutch, but I haven't seen any reviews on those yet

[Tech/Sales@EM]

Heres a link to the homepage for the OP clutch. Their are a couple reviews floating around on this site for the CM kits as well.

http://www.mazdaspeedforums.org/foru...-clutch-78744/

[Tomas]

1200 mile update.

Clutch is running just fine. I've noticed it is less grabby when it gets up to working temp.

Took the car to the track last sunday. No complains. Lap after lap no slipping in high heat weather. This is on stock turbo.

Now I have a 3071 installed and once its tuned its out to the track again. Then it's red line shifts instead of shifting at 6K as I am doing now.

[Tech/Sales@EM]

If your on the track the temps should actually be pretty low because their isnt much slip going on once your already in gear. Next time try and ride the clutch a little bit letting the feramic heat up then go on the track and see if you get a little better results.

[Lex]

Originally Posted by Tomas 1200 mile update. Clutch is running just fine. I've noticed it is less grabby when it gets up to working temp. Took the car to the track last sunday. No complains. Lap after lap no slipping in high heat weather. This is on stock turbo. Now I have a 3071 installed and once its tuned its out to the track again. Then it's red line shifts instead of shifting at 6K as I am doing now.

Was the stock clutch slipping already for you?

[Tomas]

Originally Posted by Tech/Sales@EM If your on the track the temps should actually be pretty low because their isnt much slip going on once your already in gear. Next time try and ride the clutch a little bit letting the feramic heat up then go on the track and see if you get a little better results.

Mongo confused.
I am doing road racing. Not drag strip. How does what you describe help bring down lap times?

Originally Posted by Lex Was the stock clutch slipping already for you?

Yeah. After 10-15 mins of 80% + driving on the circuit it would start to slip. Otherwise I really wouldn't have looked at other options but OEM. That, and since I was planning on going BT and quaife LSD, I thought might as well get a higher grade clutch.

[Tech/Sales@EM]

Didnt know if you were auto-exe or circuit track.

[Ziggo]

Subbing for results. My stock clutch proved incapable of withstanding the BNR S3 on the road course, and started slipping in the hot afternoon sessions. I suppose with the stock turbo the power fell of more with temperature, where the BNR was able to maintain my requested loads in the higher heat and expose the stock clutch. Very frustrating having to behave like a miata and play the momentum game at 3/4 throttle. Educational to be sure, but I am not a good enough driver and my car is too heavy to pull that off. Really interested if the 3+ is enough or I should be looking at the CM replacement kit.

[Fobio]

I think I need a new clutch too...something with a stock feel on the street and hold on to more power past 3000rpm.

[Ziggo]

Unless this guy responds soon I think I am going to be doing the CM FX400 kit just to be sure I don't have a problem.

It might be aggravating to drive on a daily basis, but not nearly as aggravating as not being able to go WOT on a road course.

[MSP611]

OMG how much powah ur s4 make??? sounds like sex!!

[Tech/Sales@EM]

^ Not enough. Its currently under the Knife getting custom BBK and Custom KW Motorsport Coilovers teamed up with Custom control arms and Hotchkis Sways.

[Tomas]

Originally Posted by Ziggo Unless this guy responds soon I think I am going to be doing the CM FX400 kit just to be sure I don't have a problem. It might be aggravating to drive on a daily basis, but not nearly as aggravating as not being able to go WOT on a road course.

Are u waiting for an update from me or EM Motorsports?

[Ziggo]

Originally Posted by Tomas Are u waiting for an update from me or EM Motorsports?

Was hoping you were going to hit the track soon with that stage 3+. I was in a hurry, but my clutch seems fine for daily use, I am just going to have to replace it before I hit the track again but I don't have anything scheduled.

[Tomas]

I did.
See post 14.
In addition, I also ran the clutch on a road course with the ATP3071 I installed a few weeks back and it held up without any problems. No slipping.

[Ziggo]

Saw post 14, was looking for an update using the clutch and the 3071 on the track. I didn't have an issue on the K04 with the stock clutch but with the BNR it was spinning pretty badly.

Details on the track time? 4th & 5th gear? Ambient temperature? What kind of torque (or loads) were you seeing?


Zigatapatalka

[Tomas]

Originally Posted by Ziggo Saw post 14, was looking for an update using the clutch and the 3071 on the track. I didn't have an issue on the K04 with the stock clutch but with the BNR it was spinning pretty badly. Details on the track time? 4th & 5th gear? Ambient temperature? What kind of torque (or loads) were you seeing? Zigatapatalka

Track time is not of any use since it was a new course I hadn't done before. Ambient temps about 95. Can't say about specific torque numbers either. I am running 1.92 load from 3.5 to 5.5. Tappering down to 1.82 at 6K. 270 g/s max flow. But that won't tell you much either. Best is just to say I was was running 19-21 psi boost from 3.5 to 5.5 tappering down 18.5 at red line on race gas and the clutch held up fine.

As a side note I would also like to point out that high torque number IMO are not what cause the stock clutch to slip. It's more overheating of the clutch plates which happens when you shift in high frequency at high RPM. If you hit 450 lbs torque at 3.5k rpm that won't make the clutch slip but if you shift at 6k+ rpm constantly it will. That it just my experience though and others might say differently. Meh.

[Ziggo]

Thanks for the response. I don't think is purely a high torque number that causes it to slip, but that doesn't help. I was able to nurse it around the track by minimizing my shifts, and I know it would have done better if I could heel-toe in my driving shoes, which is something else I am going to fix by putting a fatter gas pedal on. Heat + torque are what does it in.

Those seem like really low numbers for a 3071. It was consistent 2.2 loads (310-330ft-lbs) and ~330g/s that did the stock clutch in for me, and I want something that will be able to handle 400ft-lbs on a hot, shift happy day.


Zigatapatalka

[Tomas]

8K mile update.
Clutch started slipping at the track (road course)
Currently running ATP 3071. It spikes at around 21-22 psi after every shift.
Temps were about 85 degs.

Not sure if the pp side or the flywheel side of the clutch is slipping. At any rate I am a lil disappointed. I am not even close to what this turbo can put out. Changing out the clutch is a major pain in the ass and doing big power numbers is kinda useless for my set up unless I can put the power down. Let's see how the new clutches EM brings out can do with the higher clamping pressures.

Edit: The clutch was not slipping at the track. I am an imbecile and mistook a slipping clutch for a loose clamp causing a boost leak and rise and fall or RPMs while at WOT.

[Ziggo]

Hmmm thanks for the update.


Zigatapatalka

[Tech/Sales@EM]

Please remember these clutches are not designed for racing..thats the whole reason we also developed along with Clutchmasters a clutch designed for high output cars that would be racing or needed extra help from a powerful pressure plate. These clutches were designed to be cost effective OEM replacement clutches ideally daily driving situations.

On another note you most likely just got the kevlar to hot. Once that happens its coefficient of friction is a bit less and requires some time to cool off before it can retain its maximum holding capacity again.

[Tomas]

Originally Posted by Tech/Sales@EM Please remember these clutches are not designed for racing..thats the whole reason we also developed along with Clutchmasters a clutch designed for high output cars that would be racing or needed extra help from a powerful pressure plate. These clutches were designed to be cost effective OEM replacement clutches ideally daily driving situations. On another note you most likely just got the kevlar to hot. Once that happens its coefficient of friction is a bit less and requires some time to cool off before it can retain its maximum holding capacity again.

So if I want a clutch that will hold up to road racing conditions but I can also DD what should I get? I don't want something that will make funny noises or rattle/vibrate. My GF already does that. lol
I would also prefer to keep the DM flywheel if possible.

[Tomas]

8K mile update edited.

[Tech/Sales@EM]

*Smacks forehead!

Hey will you be down for some track time. Have your checked out the threads I posted on this subject?

[Tomas]

Originally Posted by Tech/Sales@EM *Smacks forehead! Hey will you be down for some track time. Have your checked out the threads I posted on this subject?

Link?

[Tech/Sales@EM]

Product Testing

I think thats the most active of the ones I posted.

[Tomas]

Sounds good. Thanks.
Posted on your thread.

[Tomas]

Clutch had to come of after only about 15-20K miles. Installed it just about a year ago. It was slipping and there was an oil leak somewhere. I am not sure where the oil leak originated yet. Could be the rear main seal or the seal on the input shaft of the gear box. The gear box never lost much oil so I am going to say it was the rear main seal. I will know for sure once I take the gear box apart. It's also possible the clutch was slipping due to the surfaces of the pressure plate and flywheel being contaminated with oil. Swapped the clutch with a Spec 3+ although the EM clutch is still in pretty good shape. There is no wear at all on the PP side which is in contact with the kevlar side of the clutch disc. The flywheel did show some wear which is to be expected with the carbon/metal compound on the other side of the clutch disc. Not sure which side was slipping. Probably the PP / kevlar side. Supposedly kevlar loses some of its grabbing ability once it overheats and starts to slip but I did not notice it getting worse after repeated slipping on the road race courses around here. I kept driving that bitch lap after lap and expected the kevlar to be toasted but it does not look in bad shape at all.

Kevlar / PP side



Carbon metal / FW side



Spec 3+ besides EM.

I am having a little bit of issues with the Spec 3+. When actuating the clutch pedal it won't completely disengage the pressure plate so the synchros grind a lil and the gear are sometimes hard to pop out. If you rev match its not so bad but it's still annoying. Everything on the MS3 is self adjusting including the pressure plate and master cylinder so there is really nothing you can do except wait till the clutch disc wears out a lil. The spec pressure plate is Luk OEM but painted in blue. So is the clutch disc except for the surface material of course. Only difference to OEM was the throw out bearing. It was a lil different. Could be the throw out bearing was a little shorter in height and that's why the pressure plate won't lift all the way. Don't know. Called Spec and they also said there is nothing you can do except to wait till the disc wears out a lil bit. That's just shit. Clutch is pretty grabby but not much more than the EM and so far it does not shudder.



Some marks of the kevlar on the PP. Probably from when it overheated. But otherwise the pressure plate looks like new. There is almost zero wear on the metal.



DIY flywheel resurfacing FTW







This time around I decided to drop the engine cradle. Makes stabing the gear box back into the engine much easier and I got to clean and re-lube the bushings on the Hotchkiss front sway bar. Would have been better to replace them but I did not think of buying new ones earlier.



Zip tied steering rack to down pipe



Naughty dirty lil bell housing.



Pilot bearing removal, This tool worked great.



Original rear main seal. Hard to tell if there was a leak somewhere. If there was, it was not on the seal itself but on the lower part that seals to the block with sealing compound. The oil around it could have been slung by the transmission oil on the clutch and flywheel but I think its more likely it was just leaking.



New rear main seal with shit loads of high heat sealing compound.




Needles to say I am fucking pulp. Doing this alone took me about 14 hours this week end.

[06Speed6]

Did you catch the part number on the spec supplied tob? If they used the oem pp I am curious why they changed the tob.