Ya I would build the bottom end and then go fully bolted and it seems the limit to power with this car is fueling and air flow but who really knows at this point.

another p-t blow up wtff, if i had a beater i would buy seans nitrous kit he has for sale and try to blow the stock motor at wot lol

The damage to the gear was from the rod on it's way out the block. It looked fine back when I took the BS out, I have pics during the removal floating around somewhere. I wonder how much more impressive the carnage would be if the gear wasn't there to act as a shield.

So are you tearing this down for inspection or no?

For all of you whining about not making power - listen to 06speed6. If the head flow is as poor as he states (200CFM @ .500lift) and we have a mid .300 lift on stock cams you will not make any more power without head work.

Why such a curse. Because this is how the motor was designed. This is for several reasons. One of them is because with DI, airflow at low loads through the head is very important to achieve the higher economy than port injection. Higher torque at lower RPM is what exploits DI and Mazda used this and GM used this with their Cobalt. A lot of tumble and carefully designed high velocity intake ports do this. Low end torque is awesome but the top end drops like a rock.

There is no need for more fuel right now as fueling is homogeneous at high loads and there's tons of it - almost identical to port injection. Fuel injection timing would be nice to control though.

The difference between us and an EVO (4g63) is that they have 25% more flow on a 1st gen motor - let alone the ones with variable intake/exhaust. That means they can carry the torque and make hp high in the rev band at the expense of low end torque. Get some cams with a higher lift and you make even more. No one seems to even do cams on this car. One thing to be careful of is that DI (in stratified mode) may not like lumpy cams. The Evo motor was meant to perform at higher RPM. It was designed this way. Not the case with the Mazda. Either do lots of head work or get over it and live with the low end torque. Without headwork and cams anything bigger than a GT3071 is a waste. If you do head work it might make the DI system rough at low loads as like I said DI is very sensitive.

The only other alternative on a stock head is nitrous as it is sprayed in liquid form and the energy content is much higher per volume than air - therefore not being affected by the low flow as much.

Hmmm... has anyone blown up his mazdaspeed6 here? or heard of it?? I mean its the same engine...

And its looks líke it is those who mods their cars with all kinds of mods that is blowing.? I never heard of anyone who is completly stock that has blown. Or? It seems like the engine is very sensitive for changing the stock setup.

And if you do mod yor car with a manifold or downpipe, change the exahustflow as much as u do when changing these parts... u must program/reflash/tuneprogram or whatever your ECU! The ECU gets wrong values otherwise... and that could be a problem...

If you only install SRI/CAI and catback system it doesnt change anything that much and no need to tune the ECU, it should adjust itself. But not if u go further than that.. But everybody already know this. right? ;)

To the OP , sorry about your loss, guess it wont be an open casket.

A little off topic, but there are some funny mthrfckrs on this forum.

I swear , there's comic genius lurking here...some of these replies have me fucking rolling.

OP what was the reason you put the balance shaft back in? and why do you think it still would have happened without it there, as you say it acted as a sheild? looks like the rod blew right where the balance shaft was.

I think he was referring to the gear on the crankcase that drives the BS.

Lex, I wish there was a 'thanks times 1000" button, and for 06speed6 too.

off topic, but from Lex's post, I would gather that perhaps we should work on the things we've neglected so far on the path to moar power...intake mani (like the CF one phantom is working on), along with head work and cams...and hopefully, injector timing.

the intake manifold problem makes sense, that much more airflow to a certain cylinder can cause problems especially when boosting 1-3 psi and ur supposed to around 14.7 but instead that one cylinder is a lot higher because of the increases flow, which could explain everyones p-t blowup.

Correct - everywhere you improve flow efficiency will help the overall system and ultimately you will always be stuck behind the poorest flowing component.

Manifolds, turbos, exhausts and intakes that are free flowing reduce pumping losses and improve efficiency. I think that right now in terms of power we're still stuck behind the head. A really nice intake manny, exhaust manny, and turbo may squeeze something close to 400whp on a good day but I wouldn't expect more without addressing head flow if indeed it is that low.

There is always a tradeoff. With a head capable of flowing 600hp, you won't get the same efficiency and economy putting around town.

One can almost argue that unless you have a very special reason, this is not the platform to extract that kind of power from - from both a financial and practical reason.

LEX you are one intelligent DUDE man. Your my MSF.org Idle

MS6s do blow up.
A friend of mine shot #2 out the block and the car almost caught fire. Oil on a glowing downpipe is no good.
I think a lot of it is due to his driving style though.

Another friend has his MS6 parked due to rod knock.

The only thing that blows up faster than a disi mzr is the threads talking about them.

Are you addressing the 400HP on stock internals or or build motor after corrected air flow everywhere else for more efficiency, i.e intake mani, exhaust mani & turbo?

Given a setup for majority of the guys who are fully bolted (but retain their stock manifold) what about the ported & polished manifold that one of the guys had done which reduced the overall imbalance from like 25% to 5%... there's a thread on this.

Lastly, a lot of you guys are complicating on the negativity of how "weak" this motor is and everything else that follows to build this and reach 400+....

Have any of you thought about the drive train at that point? You honestly think at 400+ WHP and god knows how much torque that the drive-train on the MS3/MS6 is going to hold up? You'll be blowing gears, axles- left and right...

Soon enough, once there's enough sufficient amount of people with MS3's that are able to safely withstand 350+ WHP - 400+ WHP (without blowing the engine) we're going to have a good amount of new whinning threads about how really poor and "WEAK" the MS3 & MS6 drive train really is because it can't handle so much power/torque.

http://www.mazdaspeedforums.org/foru...anifold-37629/

Flow numbers are one thing, but its not the whole picture. Fact of the matter is that the IM is one of those areas thats just starting to be addressed. I don't know what Whoosh did with his, I seem to remember him having ported his, but I don't recall all the details or if he was able to correct the imbalances, etc. From what I can tell with initial driving impressions, this is shaping up to be very promising.

Lex had a point earlier about the VTCS and velocity of air entering the engine at low RPMs... and after reading that I'm not sure if its placebo or not but the car does seem to feel different at lower RPMs. The word I would use to describe it is "Chunkier" but maybe I'm imagining things. Its hard to describe.

One thing I can tell you is that you likely won't be able to fix the imbalance in the runners AND leave the VTCS in. If you look at the stock IM theres a large nub in runner#1 that anchors the VTCS rod thing, blocks off a good deal of it.

<rant>
People are acting all surprised about cars making 400whp blowing up. Honestly the evo is an exception. On my last platform, if you broke 200whp you were asking for trouble. You are asking a LOT more out of the engine than it was designed for, and its not one magical thing thats causing failures that can be found by some company and addressed and fixed easily. From the oil in the IM from the crappy PCV, to the two-piece oil ring, to the wacky-ass PCM, to the imbalance in the IM flow... all of these little issues are negligible when the car runs within the stock parameters, but you start asking more and each small issue is multiplied.

People need to stop holding out hope for a magic fix for the blown engines and either sell the car if you're looking for big EASY power, or man up and make your testicles proud and live dangerously.
</rant>

I think we will cross the tranny bridge when we get to it,Untill then we need to find out why the motors are blowing. And when I say tranny bridge its a metaphor,I not talking about stepping over rue paul.. :)

Also I didnt see the thread talking about the PnP manifold flow problem.. What does he mean going from 25% to 5%? I will try to find this thread later..

Oh I see subpar just posted this info while I was typing this responce..

he was seeing a 25 % difference in air flow (CFM) between the 4 cycls. After he PnP'd it he only had a 5% difference. #3 was the higest and #2 was right behind, and it seems that #2 and 3 are the ones to blow 75% of the time.

isnt our block the same as the regular mazda3 2.3L?

so basically we have already have a modded/turbo'd motor from the factory, thats making like 80+ hp over was it was initially inteded for. and then we are modding on top of that.

so we are trying to get 400whp out of a block designed for what? like 130-160whp.
thats same as trying to make 400whp on a honda motor without having a built motor. it doesnt work...

um well actually N/A cars usually have better flowing heads and have higher compression then cars designed to be FI factory since FI forces the air in to the motor not drawing it in. With out picking your entire post apart I'm basically saying its full of half ass assumptions and your wrong.

You can take damn near any previous honda motor built the last 15 years add fuel, boost the shit out of it and make more power then we are now.

Honda motors are notoriously efficient and this is why they have held on to NA performance for so long. Take a look at an S2000 motor flow and you will find out why it makes so much hp (and so little torque in contrast) with so little boost pressure.

makes me want a s2000 and boost it. shit would be fun with rwd, more power and i wouldn't have to worry about it going boom.

honestly my next car i just want rwd because fwd is BORING. awd would be pretty fun also

i was asking, what is the difference between our car and the regular 2.3L? i was assuming its mostly the same and made an argument on that assumption.

Its actually very VERY different. Completely different rods, pistons, bearings and crankshaft, we have oil jets, NA 2.3 does not, the oil passages are different, and I'm sure there are more differences that I don't know about yet... probably got some extra specialness done to the materials used when making the block too.

According to Cosworth (and DCR too I think) The bearings in the DISI are good for well over 600 whp.

IIRC DCR says that the crankshaft in the DISI is good for over 500.

A sleeved mazdaspeed block is making over 1000whp in Dee Karamananasmanagainas's dragster, but he had to have the oil passages machined a bit differently to fit a PI head on. Dee's car gives me hope that one day my car will make power, even if it means slapping a PI head on and running a standalone.

The weak point in the bottom end are the rods, pistons and rings. If you replace those you have a bottom end that can withstand just about ANYTHING you can throw at it... which is why I haven't jumped ship yet. Despite what everyone thinks, with good rods and pistons this engine has loads of potential, we've just got to figure out how to shove enough air and fuel in there.

ok heres the plan,

lex and 06speed6 are gona team up and pwn this platform together. lex is gona turn his ms3 into a slut mobile and use it to drive around sluts and the like to make money (notice i chose lex cause well we all know fwd is ftl). using this money him and 06speed6 are gona combine their super knowledge of this platform and get some shit done cause it seems like they know the answers (or atleast care to actually do something about the problems we have).

seriously, im tired of people theorizing and not acting on their theories. is it really a wonder why whoosh still has the highest no tune whp out of this platform? (not to mention his was awd whp). its cause he knows ALOT about making big horsepower and he actually DID SOMETHING ABOUT IT. he certainly diddent know shit about this platform when get got into it but its not rocket science to make HP, its still physics. half the knowledge we have was because of him and his crazy secret modz. he respectfully stepped down and now someone needs to step-up........

whoosh made a number one time, he then tried to back it up with more boost and mods and went lower. Lex sounds like he read a engine book, basic knowledge if you ask me. Will he do something about it? probalby not, who the fuck wants to redesign a motor to break 400whp.....you gotta be stupid.

Thats more hate then usual Chris lol.

Such hate :) I am not trying to prove anything - I just state the "basics" Chris because that's the best way at arriving at a solution to a problem. I could go on about my "credentials" but honestly why bother ... so I can show you that I am a big enough man to post on a forum?

not to put this in a bad way but what he's saying is your all talk and no show. which is not intended in a bad way. you have very good points in all the post you've had in the past but nothing is coming out of it. no one is taking that information and moving foward.

the way i look at it is this motor has been around since 06 and going on 4 yrs later we still can't hit 400whp. i've come to conclusion that this is motor is fail. sorry

This motor isnt fail,I mean if you change everything but the block and I guess the crank and switch to PI you will have a good motor.. lol

It may be cheaper to just swap a evo motor or srt4 into our car....

it was more of lex can cure cancer yet everyone is still dying from it lol

haha true to both of you. i just want a car that can run 11's, stay on stock block and have a big turbo. is that to much to ask?

btw most of us spent 20k on our car or more, to do what i stated above will be putting us in the 30-40k range. my as well bought something else imo.

i don't mean to flame on this car because i bought it in march 08 with intentions on making it a project car. i slowly modded on another forum and moved to this one because it was definitly better off. i was a lurker as i didn't know much but wanted to learn how to make the car faster on the streets. the thing that made me realize that this car is not going anywhere soon were from the post from haltech(which has said all along add fuel) and laloosh with his random comments on why this car isn't going anywhere.

i'm basically just tired of reading all these theories of we need this, our cars blow because of this, because in the end no one has actually succeeded in this platform. socks yes dynoed 433 but had to use nitrous, which should have happened without.

Unlike some of you my intentions for my own MS3 is to keep it reliable, streetable, and fun with well thought out "improvements". I have other track toys with engine builds if I want to have that kind of fun.

I am not saying the platform is crap. I am telling you it is what it is. 400+whp will take more than bolt ons and a bigger turbo due to the way the engine was designed. It's just that simple. I am sorry if this makes people feel bad about owning the car because they had other expectations.

I completely agree that there are many many other platforms that are cheaper to extract big power from. I and others on here can also tell you what to do in order to extract higher numbers from the MS3. That doesn't mean I will do this on my daily driver because as many of you have realized it's just not worth it - not when the car is 1 year old and I am still financing it and it's FWD. I've been there and done that with big power FWD and roll racing gets tiresome - at least for me.

On the flip side, I do think the car has some great characteristics. For what it is, it is hard to beat.

About engines blowing - I am still analyzing data and events. One thing people have to realize is that it's not a single thing that kills all cars. All "theories" I have explored contribute to the pool of blown engines - and this is something I am much more interested in pursuing than 400whp.

Yup, that's the plan
I didn't put it back in. That's just the drive gear for the balance shaft, which I never took out.
My AFR was actually in the low 12's when it blew. I changed my fuel tables long ago and had the AP displaying measured AFR at the time.

i completely agree man. yes i bought this with the intentions on big power but also the characteristics of it. the price was awesome at the time, interior wasn't cheap looking and i honestly think our cars look very good.

like i said when i came into this platform i was coming from a 04 f150. at that time gas was hitting record highs. figured i'd get rid of it and hop into an ms3. i didn't even know it was a di motor at the time, or what it meant. i'm 21 and from this forum i've learned a lot about engines in general.

I'm with ya on that! This is my everything car - daily driver, keep it fun, a little quicker (in curves and in straights), but most of all reliable. In my career, there's no such thing as "car trouble," I either show up on time or I'm fired!

Clearly, the motor was built at a relatively low price point and is already fairly stressed as it comes from the factory. It even comes with a built in restrictor plate known as the OEM intake! Other than an intake and some other minor tweaks, I don't plan on doing anything else under the hood. I'd rather spend the money that some of you are spending on engines, on a tow vehicle and a proper track prepped, RWD car, that will run circles around any bolted up MS3. Safer, too.

Trying to make it into a FWD version of a built up Ralliart or STI is a fool's game, IMHO. The car wasn't designed for it, as reflected in the purchase price (and blown motors). If you had the money and wanted to go there, you should have simply gone there with a different car!

Instead, what we have is an affordable, reliable (if you're easy on the mods), fun to drive car. Which, btw, takes to CHASSIS improvements quite well. If you bought an MS3 as a project car to go import drag racing with though, you bought the wrong car.

Anyway, bummer about the bolted motors blowing up. I'm sure with enough time and money you guys can get big power that's reliable, but it sounds like you have to basically re-engineer the whole motor, and will wind up spending as much as an equally quick OEM car, except you won't have a warranty.

Just my opinion, not trying to rain on anyone's motor build parade, I'm just saying that the MS3 is the wrong car to start from if you want 400hp at the wheels. There's a reason it's a bargain to begin with, and all these motor kerblammo's are a clear indication why.

Mate, I'm not arguing the points I'm going to make with you since everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Regardless, I want to make state few things in general towards anyone.

Are you an actual mechanical/engine engineer to make that assumption that this motor can't be driven up to 400HP? I highly doubt that you are. Shit, one forum on the whole internet and a few blown engines and majority (this part is my favorite) of people who aren't actual engine/mechanical engineers disproving this platform of being inccapabale of making 400WHP...I'm sorry but that's all that this is.

Then you have the whole cost issue. 7-8 K for a build motor. Please. You think Subaru is any different. Obviously the WRX/STI ain't DI but it doesn't mean the owners/tuners don't blow their engines left and right. A guy with an 04 WRX (if I remember correctly) went through 4 blown engines before he accomplished what he wanted- and no, it wasn't a 700+ WHP. Imagine if someone on here went through four engines- this forum would turn everyone away from the platform. My friends whole motor build for his 06 WRX is roughly 15K... and he's building the motor first- the way it should be done.

Unfortunately, here we have a brand new platform and people right away think they're going to slap on nothing but bolt ons, load pre-loaded maps (that are meant for disaster) or get a bad costume tune or god knows what else and they're surprised when their shit blows.

I mean come on let's be realistic here. Engine components (such as pistons and rods) are a fucking wear and tear product and the more stress you expose them to; the more they're going to wear. Why is that so hard for some of you to understand? Instead, all you hear, is
"ehh, these rods and pistons suck, they're weak, the whole motor is weak" and all that never ending shit. Well, yeah, you operate the rods and pistons beyond their operating tolerances what do you expect.

To those who are worried about blowing their engines build your motor first. A 400+ MS3.... I dunno why you would want one.... first gear is useless even at 360HP.... Regardless, 330-360WHP on stock internals I think for the MS3 is enough.

SLS, can you check the fuel injector in the cylinder that blew for plugging?

Sure thing. Don't know exactly when the tear-down will start tho. It's a pretty pitiful sight in Cobb's shop right now seeing my car and the car who's motor build I was going to go check out. At least it makes for some decent pictures.

http://i663.photobucket.com/albums/u...0/96480a82.jpg

Mine on the lift. That's his new block, wish it was mine.

What Accessport map were you running SLS?