flying dipsticks?

[gsrtype1]

Originally Posted by ptperformance Looks like Aaron is the only one that has had any problems like this. I would have to say that there is something different with his system that is causing this to happen vs the 100's we have sold that have yet to see anything like this. Its sad that a vendor get treated this way here on the forums, a vendor that is working to fix the problems that Mazda left you with. It equally sad that a moderator would come in here and make a thread like this with out trying to contact us (just got you PM today). There is a reason we have a money back warranty with these, so send us your part back Aaron and we will get you taken care of, thanks. It doesn't, we have tested it with the stock system in place and there is just a .5 psi increase in pressure vs it being an open system. There are other issues with Aarons car and the current system he has controlling the cranks case vapors. The knock is the restrictor working. Everyone that has installed one will see an increase in knock initially, this is the debris in the system (crank case, PCV, manifold, ect) getting cleaned up or sucked into the motor. This is common and everyone that has ran the mod for a few days to weeks has eventually seen the knock go down. It might take some time for the knock to go away but it does eventually. The knock is the restrictor working. Everyone that has installed one will see an increase in knock initially, this is the debris in the system (crank case, PCV, manifold, ect) getting cleaned up or sucked into the motor. This is common and everyone that has ran the mod for a few days to weeks has eventually seen the knock go down. It might take some time for the knock to go away but it does eventually. 47 posts and not another single issue with this, and several people have been running them for close to a week now? Seems to be a single issue with just one car, might have some other issues with the car that the pill cannot fix.

Hmmm interesting stuff!

[aaronc7]

regarding my stock PCV valve, i still get plenty of oil in my OCC between the crankcase and intake manifold...how does this suggest my PCV valve is faulty?. Here is exactly how my stuff is setup.

Crankcase -> stock pcv valve -> OCC #1 -> check valve -> Intake Manfild

Valvecover -> OCC #2 -> Intake

I get oil and crap in both OCCs. Is something wrong with my setup or not working properly? Seems normal to me. I have 2 'check valves' between the IM and crankcase now, I find it very unlikely that both are faulty here.

Originally Posted by Lex First of all, how is a restriction in the valvecover to inlet going to reduce crankcase pressures? It will increase them because they will no longer escape during boost. Here's a synopsis of what is likely going on with Aaron's car. 1. His stock PCV has failed. This was an issue he documented when he pointed out his intake tube was oily. This was because now most of the crankcase evacuation was happening from the valve cover. 2. A restriction is added between valvecover and turbo inlet. This crankcase evacuation path should work under boosted conditions when the PCV valve is closed. In aaron's case, the PCV valve is likely leaking so there was extra pressure in the crankcase. The valvecover vent was now plugged by a restriction. Now, not only was the crankcase pressurized through the failed PCV valve, but there was no other way for the crankcase to vent. So the dipstick blew out. 3. I believe the failure of the stock PCV valve has something to do with engines blowing under "low load (high vacuum)" conditions. The failure/leakage is especially pronounced (and may be caused) by higher boost conditions. The failure won't be noticed by most people. A pressurized crankcase *CAN* push oil through the failed PCV valve into the intake manifold under a throttle (vacuum) change in the engine (getting on/off the throttle). Look at how much oil came out of the dipstick under pressure. Now imagine all that oil being sucked through the PCV system into the engine because the crankcase was under pressure. There is no coincidence in that Mazda is changing the PCV valve. In order to protect yourself from this, I would run a second PCV valve between the manifold and stock PCV valve. That way the stock valve won't take the burden of all the extra boost and there are 2 valves now - much less likely both fail. Couple that with a catch can and a burst of oil is less likely to end up in your manifold should shit hit the fan.

No, I still get/got oil and crap between the crankcase and intake manifold...majority has always been there. Perhaps it was leaking a little or something, but either way I have the suggested "check valve" installed so I don't think this is the case...AND I have a catch can.

[rodrigo]

that is my concern...no one has established there is anything wrong with your car, this is why i think it's really important to follow up on the why's......

the same way we cannot assume there is something mechanically wrong with your car we cannot assume it's solely the pill to blame....


I think ego's and feelings need to be checked at the door and honestly help one another

[jhershorin]

Originally Posted by Lenny127 off topic , but I fell for this avatar..I thought jake got himself banned again Mazdaspeed Forums - View Profile: jhershorin

haha ya i made that a few days ago in memory of a fallen ninja...he was my low baller broker when i wanted deals at a low price.

[aaronc7]

it looks like while I was at work today someone posted up my car has this and that issue, and now everyone is just blaming it all on that. I ALREADY have a check valve there, it's probably safe to say that is not the issue here. In my mind at this point it still seems like this PTP restrictor created too much of a restriction for venting pressure, and the pressure found another way out...that makes the most logical sense to me.

[rodrigo]

so has ptp advised you on where to go from here?? because without the pill you have no problems anymore right?

[aaronc7]

I have been driving my car extra hard these past few days....(for the sake of science) to see if it happens again, to try to single out the issue. Not a single issue since I took it out.

PTP offered in an above thread to send me a check valve to put between my intake mani and crankcase, but no one had realized that I already had one...

[FreeFlyFreak]

Originally Posted by jhershorin haha ya i made that a few days ago in memory of a fallen ninja...he was my low baller broker when i wanted deals at a low price.

OT: Should say "Free Phillyb"

[Lex]

Originally Posted by aaronc7 it looks like while I was at work today someone posted up my car has this and that issue, and now everyone is just blaming it all on that. I ALREADY have a check valve there, it's probably safe to say that is not the issue here. In my mind at this point it still seems like this PTP restrictor created too much of a restriction for venting pressure, and the pressure found another way out...that makes the most logical sense to me.

Yes, for your setup the restrictor prevented your crankcase from venting during boost via the valve cover to inlet PCV vent. Not many members get as much oil through that vent which is an indicating that you get more crankcase pressure buildup than most. It then makes sense that your car lost the dipstick and not other ones.

The source of the extra pressure in your crankcase compared to most I am not sure of. A faulty PCV valve seems possible but you mentioned you have a check valve in place. Does the check valve work properly?

[aaronc7]

I don't see why the check valve would not be working. Nothing has changed since I installed either catch can that would indicate something changed, or a check valve failed.

As far as "I'm the only one who this is happening to"...who else is running a baffled OCC off of their valvecover? There was one guy, but he stated he is also has that spring on his dipstick, and I don't blame him that he doesn't want to "test" it out.

[FreeFlyFreak]

Seems the only way to know for sure is put a known good PCV valve and a known good check valve in your set up Aaron, and then try the pill again.

[ptperformance]

Originally Posted by aaronc7 regarding my stock PCV valve, i still get plenty of oil in my OCC between the crankcase and intake manifold...how does this suggest my PCV valve is faulty?. Here is exactly how my stuff is setup. Crankcase -> stock pcv valve -> OCC #1 -> check valve -> Intake Manfild Valvecover -> OCC #2 -> Intake I get oil and crap in both OCCs. Is something wrong with my setup or not working properly? Seems normal to me. I have 2 'check valves' between the IM and crankcase now, I find it very unlikely that both are faulty here.

Maybe they are not faulty, maybe the system is not supplying enough to close them all down letting the boost vent into the crank case. I don't know because we never tested the mod on a system like yours. I don't think this is an issue with the mod that we offer since you are the only case that this has happend with.

Originally Posted by Lenny127 that is my concern...no one has established there is anything wrong with your car, this is why i think it's really important to follow up on the why's...... the same way we cannot assume there is something mechanically wrong with your car we cannot assume it's solely the pill to blame.... I think ego's and feelings need to be checked at the door and honestly help one another

His is the only car that this has happened to, THE ONLY ONE. So lets make a thread, claim that it doesn't work (like you implied Lenny) and then make a mockery of it (about that ego and feeling thing). I think the thread should have been checked at the door by you, so we can help one another. I think that we can fix the problem with his car, I am willing to take the time to address his issues, but I am not going to take the rude comments and joking manner that this thread has been held to. Either we work on trying to address the only single customer car that has this problem, or we refund his money. Ball is in Aaron and yours court for a final solution to this problem.

Originally Posted by aaronc7 it looks like while I was at work today someone posted up my car has this and that issue, and now everyone is just blaming it all on that. I ALREADY have a check valve there, it's probably safe to say that is not the issue here. In my mind at this point it still seems like this PTP restrictor created too much of a restriction for venting pressure, and the pressure found another way out.

Or, your system has a flaw somewhere. Have you boost leak tested the system to see if its holding the pressure back? If it does hold the pressure back, then how is it getting into the motor? Where is the pressure coming from? In order to generate that much pressure you would have to have close to 20 psi in order to make a mess like that. We have ran with the system capped (no venting) and only got the dipstick to move off the seat, not blow out. So, with that being said some testing needs to be done in order to verify that our mod caused this. I would like to hear back on the results from the boost leak test, and then I would like to see some addtional testing to verify that the mod didn't blow out of the valve cover as well. That much oil and pressure to make the dipstick tube and a quart of oil vacuate the system like it did, that is not being cause from the restrictor that I sold you, but I am willing to entertain that it might be an issue.

Originally Posted by aaronc7 I don't see why the check valve would not be working. Nothing has changed since I installed either catch can that would indicate something changed, or a check valve failed. As far as "I'm the only one who this is happening to"...who else is running a baffled OCC off of their valvecover? There was one guy, but he stated he is also has that spring on his dipstick, and I don't blame him that he doesn't want to "test" it out.

They do fill with debris if you have a brass check valve, that could be the cause of this whole problem. I don't see how it could be bad either, but without any checks of the system we will never be able to verify that its working properly. From this point I think a boost leak test would be the next best option. Lets verify and confirm that it is, then we can take it from there.

Originally Posted by FreeFlyFreak Seems the only way to know for sure is put a known good PCV valve and a known good check valve in your set up Aaron, and then try the pill again.

I agree with this, thanks.

[rodrigo]

fair enough.

[06Speed6]

Originally Posted by boardjnky4 What does the Mann filter do with the oil that is seperated? Drain back to the oilpan?

It has a spring loaded valve that allows the oil to drain back to the oil pan once the weight of the oil in the seperator exceeds the pressure in the crankcase.

Its the same setup that Lingenfelter uses on their boosted engines and alot of others have switched over to it with good results.




Im also not so sure that Aaron has a failed PCV since the system worked properly prior to the install. I think it is more that the PCV/check valve worked properly and sealed the crankcase and the valve cover ----> intake line couldnt flow enough blow by with the new restiction.

You guys do realise that the reason Whoosh is poking fun at this thread is because he tested all this stuff out and came up with fixes at least a year ago.

[SgtP]

im with whoosh on this one.

[aaronc7]

As much as I would like to test this or that, to get to the bottom of it... all i know is...it ran perfectly fine before i put it on, and now it is again after I took it off. I would still be up for testing though, if the result wasn't possibly spilling oil all over my engine bay... again...lol, you know what i mean?

[ptperformance]

Originally Posted by 06Speed6 It has a spring loaded valve that allows the oil to drain back to the oil pan once the weight of the oil in the seperator exceeds the pressure in the crankcase. Its the same setup that Lingenfelter uses on their boosted engines and alot of others have switched over to it with good results. Im also not so sure that Aaron has a failed PCV since the system worked properly prior to the install. I think it is more that the PCV/check valve worked properly and sealed the crankcase and the valve cover ----> intake line couldnt flow enough blow by with the new restiction. You guys do realise that the reason Whoosh is poking fun at this thread is because he tested all this stuff out and came up with fixes at least a year ago.

I know Whoosh fixed this years ago, but the flying dipstick still happend with his car. I have to ask you, how is that a fix? I mean, you go from one problem to the next and people are OK with that?

It worked prior, agreed, but can we verify that it works? Just because he was not blowing the dipstick out prior to the install doesn't mean that there isn't something wrong with the system. Lets do a little work verifing that this is in fact the case.

I want to mention again, there is one case of this happening. You would think that you would be seeing dip sticks getting pushed out all over the place if it has something to do with our mod. How can you explain one out of 50 + that have posted in our thread in our section about the mod? Why would just one car have this problem?

I am going to go out on a limb and ask how many did there systems the way that Whoosh did? How many had the flying dipstick like Whoosh did after doing there system like him? I would have to say that if Whoosh's fix caused the dipstick to fly out but cured the oil burning issues, then my fix on Aarons car is just as good (oil burning is gone but his dip stick fly's out) as Whoosh's. Then again, you don't have to spend $500 in fittings and lines to buy my mod.... damn it, I knew I should have charged more for it.

Originally Posted by aaronc7 As much as I would like to test this or that, to get to the bottom of it... all i know is...it ran perfectly fine before i put it on, and now it is again after I took it off. I would still be up for testing though, if the result wasn't possibly spilling oil all over my engine bay... again...lol, you know what i mean?

Well then put a spring on the dipstick tube like others have stated to do and be happy. If your not willing to boost leak test the car, the only solution will be to give your money back.

If it ran perfect, why did you buy the mod? Odd you would buy something with out having any problems with your car ???

[06Speed6]

Originally Posted by ptperformance I know Whoosh fixed this years ago, but the flying dipstick still happend with his car. I have to ask you, how is that a fix? I mean, you go from one problem to the next and people are OK with that? It worked prior, agreed, but can we verify that it works? Just because he was not blowing the dipstick out prior to the install doesn't mean that there isn't something wrong with the system. Lets do a little work verifing that this is in fact the case. I want to mention again, there is one case of this happening. You would think that you would be seeing dip sticks getting pushed out all over the place if it has something to do with our mod. How can you explain one out of 50 + that have posted in our thread in our section about the mod? Why would just one car have this problem? I am going to go out on a limb and ask how many did there systems the way that Whoosh did? How many had the flying dipstick like Whoosh did after doing there system like him? I would have to say that if Whoosh's fix caused the dipstick to fly out but cured the oil burning issues, then my fix on Aarons car is just as good (oil burning is gone but his dip stick fly's out) as Whoosh's. Then again, you don't have to spend $500 in fittings and lines to buy my mod.... damn it, I knew I should have charged more for it. Well then put a spring on the dipstick tube like others have stated to do and be happy. If your not willing to boost leak test the car, the only solution will be to give your money back. If it ran perfect, why did you buy the mod? Odd you would buy something with out having any problems with your car ???

Actually the reason Whoosh started the testing and came up with a solution was because the OEM system, if I remember right it was a failed PCV, blew his dipstick out. The solution was specificly to keep the crankcase pressures low and keep the dipstick in place, the fact that it helps with the oil burning was really just a secondary effect.

Lets do a little verifying, it worked prior to the install, after the install it blew oil all over his engine, and it worked again after the restrictor was removed. Maybe no one that is running this part has the boost to have this effect, +boost = +blow by @ the same compression #s

[aaronc7]

Originally Posted by ptperformance If it ran perfect, why did you buy the mod? Odd you would buy something with out having any problems with your car ???

Well, if you remember... I told you that I didtn really smoke at idle, but i still had some oil in my fmic pipes and was wondering if it would help with that...which you said "Yes". I also addressed that I had a 2nd catch can in place between the valvecover and intake. You assured me that this part would still be of benefit and be OK.

And specifically in this case when I am referring to "running fine", i mean that dipsticks are not coming loose and oil getting blown across my engine bay.

[fjames]

Weren't people in the early days of this car routinely ridiculed for wanting to put a OCC on the VC path? Because you'll never get anything there? So if you do, you must have a problem?

It looks to me like Aaron's car had a problem all along, the secondary OCC was a band-aid (fine if it worked I guess) and now there's new problems. If I was Aaron I'd be more worried about oil in my IC than oil on my battery cover

[ptperformance]

Originally Posted by aaronc7 Well, if you remember... I told you that I didtn really smoke at idle, but i still had some oil in my fmic pipes and was wondering if it would help with that...which you said "Yes". I also addressed that I had a 2nd catch can in place between the valvecover and intake. You assured me that this part would still be of benefit and be OK. And specifically in this case when I am referring to "running fine", i mean that dipsticks are not coming loose and oil getting blown across my engine bay.

I agree that there should be some benifit but we never did full testing of dual OCC's with twin PCV's and a check valve. You left some of the details out of your set up that might be effecting the mods ability to work properly (check valve being one of them).

At this point I am not sure what to do since we don't have a test car set up like yours and I have yet to hear back that your system is not bleeding boost pressure back into the engine block. I am more than willing to refund the money you spent on the item as well as working with you to find out what the problems were that caused your dipstick tube to fly out. I do however need you to verify that the system is sealed before we can go any further with trying to figure out why it did what it did.

You are the ONLY one that has had this happen and since I cannot be there to diagnois why it happend I am going to need your help. We need to work together, or settle this with a refund and you can figure out why your car is getting oil into the FMIC pipes (this shouldn't be happening to start with).

So, I am going to put the ball into your court and let you decide what you want to do. I am willing to help either way just let me know.

Thanks.

Originally Posted by 06Speed6 Actually the reason Whoosh started the testing and came up with a solution was because the OEM system, if I remember right it was a failed PCV, blew his dipstick out. The solution was specificly to keep the crankcase pressures low and keep the dipstick in place, the fact that it helps with the oil burning was really just a secondary effect. Lets do a little verifying, it worked prior to the install, after the install it blew oil all over his engine, and it worked again after the restrictor was removed. Maybe no one that is running this part has the boost to have this effect, +boost = +blow by @ the same compression #s

We have a GT28 car running 24 psi running this mod right now with zero issues. We have 100's of these out there and this is the single and only one that this has happend too. So lets do some verifying. One car has this problem, not many cars.

With the pressure that the dipstick flew out of the motor and from our testing results I cannot see how this mod alone could cause enough back pressure to push the dipstick out like this. If that were the case then you would be hearing about dipsticks being pushed off the tube all over the place at stock boost levels. His flew out and dumped oil all over the motor, if there was 1/2 the pressure in a stock turbo car you would hear about these blowing 1/2 way off, or just lifting the dipstick off the tube a little bit. Not one other person has reported anything similar to any of these problems.

I understand that Aaron is upset as well as I would be also, but there are other issues with the motor building so much pressure in the crank case that this mod is not going to create or multiply enough to cause a problem like this. I am sorry that this happend to him and I will even refund him for the cleaning fee as well as the oil that he lost, but as far as the mod goes and the lack of anything to support it caused the problem (more than one person reporting on the dipstick tube flying out) I don't know what else to do. Aaron needs to do some testing for me so I can verify that there is not a problem with the cars PCV system.

Lord knows, maybe he has a set of rings that are shot allowing the pressure into the crank case, lord knows that if he is getting enough oil built up in his intercooler pipes like he claims, that alone should be enough for him to start looking into other problems.