Fuel volume mod > pics and idea inside
 

first off, do not try this
that is until I test the affects this mod has on fuel pressure
this mod is a work in progress at this point but I wanted to let you guys in on the info and idea

here is the fuel line that connects to the bottom of the CDFP
it snakes around and connects to the fuel rail via the 2 bolt flange

http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p.../fuelline1.jpg

this is a pic of the part of the hard line that is inserted into the fuel rail itself

http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p.../fuelline2.jpg

here is the interesting part.
the fitting that screws into the bottom of the CDFP is 4mm ID
the part that inserts into the fuel rail has a small feed hole measuring in at 1.5mm YIKES!

at first, I thought there was possibly a spring/diaphram(to regulate) in this part of the line that inserts in the fuel rail as did a VW DI guy I know.
I cut the fuel rail part in half to inspect the inside
thankfully, it's 4mm ID all the way through except for the 1.5mm restriction

http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p.../fuelline3.jpg
http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p..._/IMG_2884.jpg

so what is the volume mod?
enlarging the 1.5mm restriction to 4mm for increased volume

as of this writing, I'm not 100% sure the enlargement of the 1.5mm to 4mm will drop rail pressure
if it does, this mod was a failed idea
if it "doesn't" affect fuel pressure, then I just unlocked a ginormous fueling restriction
maybe the 1.5mm hole is there to maintain the rails DI pressures needed for the proper operation of this engine, maybe not
one other possibility is enlarging the hole to 2mm or 2.5 for increased volume if the 4mm hole proves to be too big to maintain the proper pressure

stay tuned to find out....

whoa.

Would be amazing if this totally solved problems related to the TSB.

Have you or have you not received the TSB?

Interesting... Subing.

TSB>>>lol
My car was at the dealer one time>>>when it was purchased

Good luck! Gt35 and playing with risky fuel mods....
Balls of steal my friend lol

I guess I could just sit around and wait for other people to make this car run correctly...that would be the safe and "puss-ass" way lol

thats what im doing...
Im not fucking up my ride... lol Ill just be slow untill some1 who gets paid to do these things figures it out:wall:

Yeah it's much cheaper to watch everyone else blow up their shit!!!

enjoy being slow and safe
some of us don't post all of our R&D and ideas to the peanut galleries....lol

I'm gonna try and find out if I can fit a regular 2.3 head on a DISI block and see if we can actually make some real horsepower here. how do you like that fuel mod?

Im no physics major or anything, but I cannot see how enlarging that outlet would keep the pressure the same. Kinda like the whole garden hose with your thumb on it > that's the way it is now, then remove your thumb to make the hole bigger = loss of psi.

Maybe Im missing something. I understand that this is still up in the air, but what are your thoughts behind it?

I've considered such things as well. I need that Hydra though, so I can maintain control of the AWD, hint, hint.

I've been thinking about that ALOT!!!

What's the guy's name that runs that pro drag car that got 1200hp out of the stock block with motec???

Sometimes people with balls are what solves problems and creates working "cheap" mods. Nothing wrong with it and i always encourage people who look at things as the Glass is half empty opposed to the glass half full.

it can be done and has been done but u also need to us the na injectors and a standalone.

Damn, I got to respect that fearless persistence. I think I stripped a bolt on the aluminum block and I crouch in a corner naked and cry. You got balls. Keep us posted please.

As long as the fuel pump can do it pressure should be close to the same.

Think of a really huge pump and a small hose = small flow big pressure

Really huge pump bigger hose = more flow and same pressure as long as the pump flows enough.

If all that we needed was more pressure we could just make the hole smaller, but we need more flow too.

I hope this works man, great idea, and I dont think steel describes your smalls, maybe something much harder, diamond maybe

Thats the idea obviously. But the car that did it is a drag car and they share the name and block with a street speed3 what I want to know is if the other shit will all work or if you would have to use the na intake manifold like the one from cosworth. There are 500+whp 3's out there.

from what i was told by the guys doing it is that u just swap the head and everything will work, u just need to add a fuel pump and the na injectors and run a standalone bcos our cpu wont run it, but its possible and i will step up to this if i cant get enough fuel with our head but ill try to add injectors to ours first, a second set.

I would start with the 2mm hole and work my way up. It will interesting to see your results.

Yup, that and an AWD conversion with 600-700whp... should be a real sleeper for a hatch!!!

If I won the lottery, that would have been my plan... but alas, I have not and my secret is all too known now...... :09:

+1 :top:



Hey, whatever happened to that guy that was supposed to make CNCed intake and exahust manifolds...:questionmark:
There was a thread in the "other" forum a while back...

Whoosh, when are you planning to test out your project...:questionmark:

Sort of right, but making the hole smaller will not make the pressure higher. It will cause the pressure in the line to drop at a smaller flow.

For a given flow there will be a change in pressure through a restriction. As the flow goes up the change in pressure will increase. Really its the difference in pressure that drives how much will flow, but whatever. Increasing the diameter of the hole will reduce the whole curve giving you more flow for a smaller pressure drop.

Its part of the reason for putting forced induction on engines, you are increasing the pressure difference between the intake mani and the cylinder, thus increasing the flow through a restriction. (intake valves) Technically air is compressible making some weird (and very cool) things happen once things become supersonic(which they do in some cases), so the comparison isn't perfect, but close enough.

Whoosh if you want to work together on this I am game. We have upped the hole to 2.3mm with very good luck. If you want to send me a dump valve (the other end that connects to the pump) I can machine that open for you if need be. I didn't have the balls to go 4mm. We started at 5% and then increased the opening at 5% intervals. We stopped at 2.3mm when the pressure appeared to drop off. This is on the stock pump so I have no idea where an upgraded pump would start to fall off. I have 3 lines here for testing so if you need another one let me know and I can get a dump valve off to you as well for testing, let me know.

thats what im talking about:nana:

Whoosh I forgot to add that it seems both holes need to be similar in size. The feed out of the pump and the feed into the rail. When messing with just one the pressures fluctuate a bunch. Just FYI.

How far did the pressure drop off at 2.3mm?

Hey i guess im not the only one who wonders about actual numbers. Any logs of the pressure drop at 2.3 as apposed to 2.0

Assuming you get the same pressure at a +1mm bore, If the pump cooperates could you expect up to 2x the fuel..?

+1 lets see numbers talk is cheap haha j/k man happy to see people tryin stuff to figure this damn fuel situation out

Good work guys, but what the heck happened to the OP. No news means good news? Maybe he is working on getting something together to sell these things.

.2 kpa. It was not much but that was with the dump valve opened up another 12%. I have to find out if there is a pump correction to hole size based on the rail pressure and pump control solenoid. Its a major pain the ass to hook up the lab scope to watch all the monitors at one time.

Based on pressure readings, yes but the injector duty cycle has the ultimate say in how much fuel you get. We could just be beating a dead horse right now with no additional injector control to adjust for the increased volume.

What I really need is a pump upgrade so I can determine which one of the restrictions are affecting pump performance. If one side says yea and the other nay then we have an idea on which one to play with. There is going to be an optimum for both since Mazda found it fit to make the hole in the line to rail smaller then the pump to line. This is why we have tried to keep the realtionship between the 2 at the same ratio as Mazda did.

Makes sense thanks!

The plot thickens...

sub

I am waiting for updates from whoosh to see if I need to go bigger.

i really dont think this is needed personally. if the fuel pump is able to maintain high enough pressure the injectors will determine the volume that is injected. if you make these holes bigger and the pressure drops, your injector duty cycle will have to increase to compensate. disi aint port injection. i have yet to see a car that was so heavily modded that the CDFP could not keep the rail pressurized. and since you need volume to create pressure, i deem this not needed. if the fuel wasnt getting into the rail fast enough, the pressure would fall off, but no one has seen this yet (not with a good pump anyways !) and the pressure being as high as possible keeps the duty cycle of the injectors low. it is still interesting, but i wont be doing it.

well is it really an MZR frankenstein motor if they are all parts off an MZR?

And BTW DI is only really the way of the future on a select few vehicles. Real power makers are still using traditional fuel injection. Until this shit can really be figured out by some smart people I don't think it's the way of the future.

BSFC, thats all that really needs to be said.

If you have a small hole, measure it... find the weight of the fluid you are going to push through it (fuel is like .086 so something) then add the pressure pressent to move the fluid. This will give you the volume that the system can supply. We have done the math and we have found that the smaller holes at 2000 psi can only support 320 to 340 crank horse power with conservative AFR's (11.0). Now if you lean the car out a bit then there is more to be had power wise but at what cost? Motor health...

You can have all the pressure in the world but if the motor is asking for more volume why not give it what it wants? I am sure there are a few smart guys on here that can back up the math with what has been posted for orifice size and the other number for pressure and feul weight. This is not something new, BSFC has been around since petrol power vehicles. You need X fuel to make X power, you can not cheat this because if you try it always ends bad for the motor.

Not for much longer.
GM has stated that they will be switching over to DI, so will Ford, Toyota and many others by 2012. Its going to be standarized for the industry here before to long. Either you agree to move forward or die watching, thats going to be the only options that we have.

i'm gonna call BS on that one. there are at least a dozen cars out there right now making over 320 HP at the crank. it doesnt take much man....TBE, CAI, IC upgrade, 18+psi.....DONE ! i have seen at least 3 cars with dynos at or just above 300WHP that would come out to over 320 at the crank. none of those cars had AFR problems. well laloosh's car has high AFRs all the time ! not to mention all the guys out there with the same or more mods than those guys that are not having a fueling problem.

now here's the real question. what do you honestly think the future of this industry is? people are really cheap honestly they aren't even willing to pay for the correct gas to put in their $40k cars. I hear cheap fucks complaining about how much it cost to fill up their hummer and i seriously want to go lay them out. Car companies are going to get to a point were they are going to cap out because there seriously shouldn't be 500hp+ cars so easily available to some people. Direct Injection is great in it's ways but traditional fuel injection works perfectly really no reason to stray from it. Will I adjust to changes? of course I will but that doesn't mean I have to like it. And like I said until some real players/companies step in and take charge the DI market isn't going anywhere too fast. When I worked for Acura they straight up said they aren't planning anything in the near future.

this mod understandably will not be for everyone

the part of this fuel system that some people are leaving out of their equation is the term "system"
not one magical part like a CDFP upgrade but all the parts that make up the delivery system, including the fuel lines

we know the in tank fuel pump will only support about 400HP(crank)
my extra OEM pump was flow tested at Kinsler and we have proof
so being a self proclaimed common sense thinker, I'm going to have to say that the majority of the rest of the fuel system tops off at about that 400HP limit
so what to do?
you add a pump booster to increase the volatage to the in tank pump which increases the flow to the cam pump which now will support alomost 600HP at 16volts
then you upgrade the CDFP>great plan
what's next?
From what I see...it's a 1.5mm feed hole that will hold you back from ever reaching a certain HP figure over 380-400(again crank HP)>after thinking about it, if the 1.5mm hole can support near 400HP>a 1MM increase in size will most likely be sufficient since 1mm is a 66% increase in size which equates to over 600HP of flow capability (again all theory)
the last item is going to be the tough one......
the injectors
I'm about to post a group testing donation thread over on the 6 club to confirm the flow capability of the injectors
I've been told they have been tested before and are 800cc

After we confirm the injectors are maxed out at the 400HP level, then what?

I have an plan but that's later...

I stated 320 to 340, there are things like elevation and such that effect dyno readings.

I will state it yet again, do the math for BSFC and you will see what I am getting at. It takes a while to do the math but when its all done you will see what I am getting at.

We have 5 injectors sitting at the injector shop right now. I will have flow rates and upgraded unit here in a while if all goes well. I was looking to be the first to have upgraded injectors on the market since no one else feels it important to do anything with the stockers.

Whoosh send me a link for that "donation" for testing I will be more then willing to help.

800cc wont support 500whp. My friends rsx is running 750 at 94 percent DC and is running out of fuel....His rsx makes about 350 max

testing is going to be tough
GDI injectors have a different electronic coils that require an adaptor box to test them properly
most places do not have this equipment and frankly are not interested in GDI(gasoline direct injection)

if you are lucky enough to find a place that has the ASNU equipment to test the injectors, you'll be upset to find out that they will be tested at a max of 5 BAR or 72.5PSI
I don't have to remind everyone that we would want flow testing at 1550PSI to 2000PSI
so all you are left to do is calculate the "possible flow" from those numbers

this GDI stuff gives me a headache
I don't mind headaches though.....I'm used to it

Jon, that was not a lecture for you as I'm sure you know this stuff
it's basically FYI for those that want to know

I'll certainly send you a link and I'm going to fire off a few PM's to you about some stuff...

+1

I agree. I have multiple datalogs showing the "Commanded Throttle Actuator" dropping before my boost has even peaked out. When it does this my car momentarily goes lean (12.5-13.5) then the throttle responds to the lean condition and starts opening again. Fuel pressure was always high (1600-1700 psi) during this. The thing is, nothing in my logs can justify why the throttle plate started closing. It does this when I can honestly say the "butt" dyno felt like the car was pulling hard as hell.

On top of this, with all my mods, I honestly feel like i'm not getting much more power anymore. I think the ECU has adjusted to all the changes, almost like it's trying to keep the power output in check. After many days of driving and letting the ECU adjust, my SW dynos indicate almost the same HP/Tq as before my mods.

I believe that changing fuel flow or injector capacity will only make the ECU reduce fuel pressure or the throttle plate....

so how did this mod work out woosh?

actually, i asked the duty cycle of the injectors, because even injectors in the intake cannot be on 100% of the time, because they will burn out...

how about we keep this thread to the relevant information to allowing us to push more volume? ;)

thanks mdogg
I don't even want to post results in this thread anymore
Maybe I'll start another thread...

This is a worthwhile thread and I apologize for my part in derailing it. So back on topic, have you completed this mod and tried it on the car?
-enganear:saevil:

I recd my extra fuel lines last night so it's a matter of days to testing

I get frustrated when threads that are meant to inform turn to shit

when members down the road want to look for info, they are forced to read through tons of off topic crap

Cleaned up a bit !!

Reading through this thread I'm thinking what a decent idea. Then I start noticing all the comments about not being the guy that blows up. Well i'l be god damned if i didn't put a rod through my block on monday. I hate all of you for reminding me what its like being out in front of the industry.

any idea why your motor went ? your mods dont look too insane ???

your kidding right? name a mod i don't have

what kind of tune were you running on the standback? were you on the stock map?

btw.... its hard not to take this topic a little "off topic".... when we are discussing the limitations of the fuel system on our cars its inevetitable that questions will be posed that dont relate to the diameter of the free fuel mod. I think this topic will always come right back on when we get results from the experimentations.... at this point this is speculation. Thank you Whoosh for your work here. I think the results good or bad will be big news around here.

jordan helped me tune the car over the phone. a/f never went over 11.2... on a mustang dyno i pulled almost 280 and 300 ft lbs (hitting fuel cut on stock boost) since than i added 4 lbs of boost, fuel pump, manifold, and new turbo, god only know what my numbers were. btw sorry for the thread jacking!!!!

report the thread and we WILL clean it up.

Guys i mean no disrespect but Woosh has asked that we keep this about the fuel mod ...

Hey whoosh, are you increasing the size of the hole in the return line as PTP mentioned, or are you trying it without first?

The place I have been sending injectors to are very interested in getting a solution for the MS3 market. They want the DI market attention so when I have more I will get back to you. Then stated that they had the fueling source to run up to 1500 psi. They are looking at getting a system in place that can do up to 15k psi. I am not sure what equipment can be used or bought to make that happen but when I heard that they had 1500 psi applications.... a smile came across my face. I will keep you posted on the details as I get them.

I have modded dump valves for the pump now. Let me know if you want one for testing.

Whoosh I will be calling this weekend. I have some results I want to share with you since it has warmed up here. AFR's are all the way down into the low 8's now. I have so much fuel on the stock pump I am going to have to piggy back the MAF sensor.

So has this mod been tested yet? Whats the outcome? Status?

I am working the details out right now. I had to order another line because I have to much fuel now. No matter what I do I have black puffs out the back everytime I go WOT. It works very well and I suspect that is a major reason Whoosh has been able to run 20 + psi on the GT35 on his car now.

I would MUCH rather have big puffs of black smoke than the alternative.................... BOOM!

No you don't get it. Its a ton of fuel, so much my cat smells when I go WOT. I have so much fuel that the mileage is now suffering. I need to find a balance between the 2.

thats awesome jon...geez. too much fuel? its almost hilarious just to say it. we have waited along time to say those words around here...lol

How much did you enlarge the orafice? How did it effect the rail pressure?

this mod is bigger than most realize

I'm now playing with the fuel rail...

after enlarging the feed line, the return orafice in the fuel rail to the CDFP is seemingly too small
that is being enlarged as well

with the upgraded CDFP + flow mods
we won't need much more fuel to go big IMO which is a good thing vs. additional injectors, etc etc
but the injectors are still the unknown at this point in terms of cc size and potential
we're working on it guys....

i'm missing how there is too much fuel. the car is still ecu controlled correct ? its my understanding that the ecu controls the fuel addition by controling the injectory duty cycle. it bases how long the spray period based on the fuel rail pressure. so just having the abilty to get more fuel to the rail shouldnt matter as far as AFR's are concerned, because the pressure will still be the same, or likely lower than before. i do see this being beneficial when the stock system just cant flow what you need, but i dont see how it would have that kind of effect on a computer controlled car.

So would you say this might be an alternative to a high-flow CDFP...? :06:

FYI: Be careful not to run that rich to long if you are catted. Fuel will collect in the cat's substrate, ignite and create extreme temps then eventually melt it. You will start feeling loss of power due the substrate clogging the exhaust flow, sound of hissing will be heard, also the cat will get so hot the car will catch fire. Oh yeah forgot, the metal of the exhaust piping, turbo, turbo manifold before the cats will start to extreme heat crystalize and become brittle and crack if ran like that for awhile before the hissing and fire lol.
If you don't have cats then you are fine, it'll just come out the tail pipe.

Who is the manufacturer of the injectors for our car. If it's not mazda, maybe the manufacturer has some info they are willing to share with someone. You all have probably thought of that though and got shut down. I just haven't heard of anyone trying this yet.

50/50 chance its Bosch

Yes way to much fuel. I have to get an idea on pump pressure but they still seem to be falling off. Upgraded pump piston is still going to be a must on these to keep the pressure where its needed.... up top. Volume is there, pressure is not. I will have more info on this in 2 weeks.

Sorry, that is going to be privy info till we get the bugs worked out. I suspect that it will be copied soon enough when we release it.

Rail pressure is still dropping with revs (like the stocker) so a pump upgrade is going to be needed no matter what you do.

Don't forget to rework the injector feed holes, add 25% more to them size wise. It helps a ton.

That return line has been bothering me as well... I have to check on the fitting that is on the rail because the service manual states that if you remove that fitting the rail is no longer any good?

Getting the bugs worked out of the factory lines is going to be a huge thing for those that want to go big. I suspect that you are monitoring EGT's as well Whoosh, that is the one thing I noticed right away.

I have tried to explain this time and time again and I never seem to get it right. Let me try something new.

You have 2000 psi behind a pipe that has a computer controlled valve on it. Now the computer can only see pressure, that it. If you swap that pipe out with one that is 4 times the size, the computer still only see's the pressure. There is more volume and less shock to the pipe when you go to the larger pipe. The shock is the back and forth movement when the computer opens and closes the valve. Bigger pipe doesn't see the shock that the smaller pipe does.

Make sence. The PCM was programmed for the smaller fuel stream going into the rail. Make it bigger and don't tell the PCM, it will still calculate for the small supply of fuel but you have now added more then 4 times the supply. Pressure and volume kind of go hand in hand but there are things like HYD shock (opening and closeing of injectors), heat, pressure expansion, bubbling, ect ect that happens with high pressure applications. This is why the pressure stays the same but the delivery changes.

Kind of like putting an intercooler on the car. They can both be the same size but one cools, moves, and works better because of the "design", nothing to do with materials its all design. God I hope this helps.

Stock applications, maybe. Modded applications with bigger turbos or big wheel units, no.

That has already happned, thanks. The cat on our car is now dead.

They have Ford stamped on them, I hope to hear back from the injector shop this week. They have done some testing and have some initial results for me but nothing to sent home to mom. If all goes well I hope to have something that will show me "numbers" in the next 2 weeks.

Loving the info!

Keep it coming.

Tks

i did the cat cleaning procedure on my car, because i kept throwing cat eff. codes... now i am having no problems. the car *feels* a tad faster too.

so your goin to officially find out what size our injectors are?

I am working on it. I have $2200 wrapped up into the injector testing and extra injectors already. I should have some thing to "test" on my car here in the next few weeks. I have sent my injector supplier 12 injectors already x $300 per injector.... you do the math. Good thing I can find these things used some times.

when will we know the size?

patience, grasshopper.

When I get it. I have no idea when I will be getting this info. Soon is all I can hope for.

loks interesting will need to read up more i got through the first 5-6 post

Sub. for good info.

ptperformance: any update on the injector size?

Jesus christ john how many balls you got in the air at one time?! Thanks for the hard work though.

Nothing yet guys. I am still waiting on test results.

I have 5 or 6 different places that are working on getting results for the MS3 and the SRT4C parts. Most seem to have there dicks stuck in the mudd right now so I will be moving on to other companies if they don't start moving on this right away.

So what was the result of the fuel pipe/line? Will there be a product released soon?