Fuel volume mod > pics and idea inside

[whoosh@Realtune]

first off, do not try this
that is until I test the affects this mod has on fuel pressure
this mod is a work in progress at this point but I wanted to let you guys in on the info and idea

here is the fuel line that connects to the bottom of the CDFP
it snakes around and connects to the fuel rail via the 2 bolt flange



this is a pic of the part of the hard line that is inserted into the fuel rail itself



here is the interesting part.
the fitting that screws into the bottom of the CDFP is 4mm ID
the part that inserts into the fuel rail has a small feed hole measuring in at 1.5mm YIKES!

at first, I thought there was possibly a spring/diaphram(to regulate) in this part of the line that inserts in the fuel rail as did a VW DI guy I know.
I cut the fuel rail part in half to inspect the inside
thankfully, it's 4mm ID all the way through except for the 1.5mm restriction




so what is the volume mod?
enlarging the 1.5mm restriction to 4mm for increased volume

as of this writing, I'm not 100% sure the enlargement of the 1.5mm to 4mm will drop rail pressure
if it does, this mod was a failed idea
if it "doesn't" affect fuel pressure, then I just unlocked a ginormous fueling restriction
maybe the 1.5mm hole is there to maintain the rails DI pressures needed for the proper operation of this engine, maybe not
one other possibility is enlarging the hole to 2mm or 2.5 for increased volume if the 4mm hole proves to be too big to maintain the proper pressure

stay tuned to find out....

[TurboWagon]

whoa.

Would be amazing if this totally solved problems related to the TSB.

Have you or have you not received the TSB?

[AutoXRacer]

Interesting... Subing.

[whoosh@Realtune]

Originally Posted by TurboWagon whoa. Would be amazing if this totally solved problems related to the TSB. Have you or have you not received the TSB?

TSB>>>lol
My car was at the dealer one time>>>when it was purchased

[Laloosh]

Good luck! Gt35 and playing with risky fuel mods....
Balls of steal my friend lol

[whoosh@Realtune]

Originally Posted by Laloosh Good luck! Gt35 and playing with risky fuel mods.... Balls of steal my friend lol

I guess I could just sit around and wait for other people to make this car run correctly...that would be the safe and "puss-ass" way lol

[Laloosh]

thats what im doing...
Im not fucking up my ride... lol Ill just be slow untill some1 who gets paid to do these things figures it out

[BlackMS3]

Yeah it's much cheaper to watch everyone else blow up their shit!!!

[whoosh@Realtune]

Originally Posted by BlackMS3 Yeah it's much cheaper to watch everyone else blow up their shit!!!

enjoy being slow and safe
some of us don't post all of our R&D and ideas to the peanut galleries....lol

[redrocketz]

I'm gonna try and find out if I can fit a regular 2.3 head on a DISI block and see if we can actually make some real horsepower here. how do you like that fuel mod?

[Derek88]

Im no physics major or anything, but I cannot see how enlarging that outlet would keep the pressure the same. Kinda like the whole garden hose with your thumb on it > that's the way it is now, then remove your thumb to make the hole bigger = loss of psi.

Maybe Im missing something. I understand that this is still up in the air, but what are your thoughts behind it?

[ATE BALLER]

Originally Posted by redrocketz I'm gonna try and find out if I can fit a regular 2.3 head on a DISI block and see if we can actually make some real horsepower here. how do you like that fuel mod?

I've considered such things as well. I need that Hydra though, so I can maintain control of the AWD, hint, hint.

[BlackMS3]

I've been thinking about that ALOT!!!

What's the guy's name that runs that pro drag car that got 1200hp out of the stock block with motec???

[Haltech]

Originally Posted by Laloosh Good luck! Gt35 and playing with risky fuel mods.... Balls of steal my friend lol

Sometimes people with balls are what solves problems and creates working "cheap" mods. Nothing wrong with it and i always encourage people who look at things as the Glass is half empty opposed to the glass half full.

[occschemguy]

Originally Posted by redrocketz I'm gonna try and find out if I can fit a regular 2.3 head on a DISI block and see if we can actually make some real horsepower here. how do you like that fuel mod?

it can be done and has been done but u also need to us the na injectors and a standalone.

[Speedy3]

Damn, I got to respect that fearless persistence. I think I stripped a bolt on the aluminum block and I crouch in a corner naked and cry. You got balls. Keep us posted please.

[billyrohm]

As long as the fuel pump can do it pressure should be close to the same.

Think of a really huge pump and a small hose = small flow big pressure

Really huge pump bigger hose = more flow and same pressure as long as the pump flows enough.

If all that we needed was more pressure we could just make the hole smaller, but we need more flow too.

I hope this works man, great idea, and I dont think steel describes your smalls, maybe something much harder, diamond maybe

[redrocketz]

Originally Posted by occschemguy it can be done and has been done but u also need to us the na injectors and a standalone.

Thats the idea obviously. But the car that did it is a drag car and they share the name and block with a street speed3 what I want to know is if the other shit will all work or if you would have to use the na intake manifold like the one from cosworth. There are 500+whp 3's out there.

[occschemguy]

Originally Posted by redrocketz Thats the idea obviously. But the car that did it is a drag car and they share the name and block with a street speed3 what I want to know is if the other shit will all work or if you would have to use the na intake manifold like the one from cosworth. There are 500+whp 3's out there.

from what i was told by the guys doing it is that u just swap the head and everything will work, u just need to add a fuel pump and the na injectors and run a standalone bcos our cpu wont run it, but its possible and i will step up to this if i cant get enough fuel with our head but ill try to add injectors to ours first, a second set.

[08 SSM MS3]

I would start with the 2mm hole and work my way up. It will interesting to see your results.

[BlackMS3]

Originally Posted by occschemguy from what i was told by the guys doing it is that u just swap the head and everything will work, u just need to add a fuel pump and the na injectors and run a standalone bcos our cpu wont run it, but its possible and i will step up to this if i cant get enough fuel with our head but ill try to add injectors to ours first, a second set.

Yup, that and an AWD conversion with 600-700whp... should be a real sleeper for a hatch!!!

If I won the lottery, that would have been my plan... but alas, I have not and my secret is all too known now......

[AutoXRacer]

Originally Posted by 08 SSM MS3 It will interesting to see your results.

+1



Hey, whatever happened to that guy that was supposed to make CNCed intake and exahust manifolds...
There was a thread in the "other" forum a while back...

Whoosh, when are you planning to test out your project...

[Ziggo]

Originally Posted by billyrohm As long as the fuel pump can do it pressure should be close to the same. Think of a really huge pump and a small hose = small flow big pressure Really huge pump bigger hose = more flow and same pressure as long as the pump flows enough. If all that we needed was more pressure we could just make the hole smaller, but we need more flow too. I hope this works man, great idea, and I dont think steel describes your smalls, maybe something much harder, diamond maybe

Sort of right, but making the hole smaller will not make the pressure higher. It will cause the pressure in the line to drop at a smaller flow.

For a given flow there will be a change in pressure through a restriction. As the flow goes up the change in pressure will increase. Really its the difference in pressure that drives how much will flow, but whatever. Increasing the diameter of the hole will reduce the whole curve giving you more flow for a smaller pressure drop.

Its part of the reason for putting forced induction on engines, you are increasing the pressure difference between the intake mani and the cylinder, thus increasing the flow through a restriction. (intake valves) Technically air is compressible making some weird (and very cool) things happen once things become supersonic(which they do in some cases), so the comparison isn't perfect, but close enough.

[ptperformance]

Whoosh if you want to work together on this I am game. We have upped the hole to 2.3mm with very good luck. If you want to send me a dump valve (the other end that connects to the pump) I can machine that open for you if need be. I didn't have the balls to go 4mm. We started at 5% and then increased the opening at 5% intervals. We stopped at 2.3mm when the pressure appeared to drop off. This is on the stock pump so I have no idea where an upgraded pump would start to fall off. I have 3 lines here for testing so if you need another one let me know and I can get a dump valve off to you as well for testing, let me know.

[Laloosh]

Originally Posted by ptperformance Whoosh if you want to work together on this I am game. We have upped the hole to 2.3mm with very good luck. If you want to send me a dump valve (the other end that connects to the pump) I can machine that open for you if need be. I didn't have the balls to go 4mm. We started at 5% and then increased the opening at 5% intervals. We stopped at 2.3mm when the pressure appeared to drop off. This is on the stock pump so I have no idea where an upgraded pump would start to fall off. I have 3 lines here for testing so if you need another one let me know and I can get a dump valve off to you as well for testing, let me know.

thats what im talking about

[ptperformance]

Whoosh I forgot to add that it seems both holes need to be similar in size. The feed out of the pump and the feed into the rail. When messing with just one the pressures fluctuate a bunch. Just FYI.

[NYpest]

Originally Posted by ptperformance Whoosh if you want to work together on this I am game. We have upped the hole to 2.3mm with very good luck. If you want to send me a dump valve (the other end that connects to the pump) I can machine that open for you if need be. I didn't have the balls to go 4mm. We started at 5% and then increased the opening at 5% intervals. We stopped at 2.3mm when the pressure appeared to drop off. This is on the stock pump so I have no idea where an upgraded pump would start to fall off. I have 3 lines here for testing so if you need another one let me know and I can get a dump valve off to you as well for testing, let me know.

How far did the pressure drop off at 2.3mm?

[Laloosh]

Hey i guess im not the only one who wonders about actual numbers. Any logs of the pressure drop at 2.3 as apposed to 2.0

[NYpest]

Assuming you get the same pressure at a +1mm bore, If the pump cooperates could you expect up to 2x the fuel..?

[bykeryder4life]

Originally Posted by Laloosh Hey i guess im not the only one who wonders about actual numbers. Any logs of the pressure drop at 2.3 as apposed to 2.0

+1 lets see numbers talk is cheap haha j/k man happy to see people tryin stuff to figure this damn fuel situation out

[digitaljedi]

Good work guys, but what the heck happened to the OP. No news means good news? Maybe he is working on getting something together to sell these things.

[ptperformance]

Originally Posted by NYpest How far did the pressure drop off at 2.3mm?

.2 kpa. It was not much but that was with the dump valve opened up another 12%. I have to find out if there is a pump correction to hole size based on the rail pressure and pump control solenoid. Its a major pain the ass to hook up the lab scope to watch all the monitors at one time.

[ptperformance]

Originally Posted by NYpest Assuming you get the same pressure at a +1mm bore, If the pump cooperates could you expect up to 2x the fuel..?

Based on pressure readings, yes but the injector duty cycle has the ultimate say in how much fuel you get. We could just be beating a dead horse right now with no additional injector control to adjust for the increased volume.

What I really need is a pump upgrade so I can determine which one of the restrictions are affecting pump performance. If one side says yea and the other nay then we have an idea on which one to play with. There is going to be an optimum for both since Mazda found it fit to make the hole in the line to rail smaller then the pump to line. This is why we have tried to keep the realtionship between the 2 at the same ratio as Mazda did.

[NYpest]

Makes sense thanks!

[shadrag]

The plot thickens...

[cld12pk2go]

sub

[ptperformance]

I am waiting for updates from whoosh to see if I need to go bigger.

[TRU-BOOST]

i really dont think this is needed personally. if the fuel pump is able to maintain high enough pressure the injectors will determine the volume that is injected. if you make these holes bigger and the pressure drops, your injector duty cycle will have to increase to compensate. disi aint port injection. i have yet to see a car that was so heavily modded that the CDFP could not keep the rail pressurized. and since you need volume to create pressure, i deem this not needed. if the fuel wasnt getting into the rail fast enough, the pressure would fall off, but no one has seen this yet (not with a good pump anyways !) and the pressure being as high as possible keeps the duty cycle of the injectors low. it is still interesting, but i wont be doing it.

[redrocketz]

Originally Posted by ATE BALLER I remember bringing the idea up a while back. Can you say "MZR Frankenstein" motor?

well is it really an MZR frankenstein motor if they are all parts off an MZR?

And BTW DI is only really the way of the future on a select few vehicles. Real power makers are still using traditional fuel injection. Until this shit can really be figured out by some smart people I don't think it's the way of the future.

[ptperformance]

Originally Posted by TRU-BOOST i really dont think this is needed personally. if the fuel pump is able to maintain high enough pressure the injectors will determine the volume that is injected. if you make these holes bigger and the pressure drops, your injector duty cycle will have to increase to compensate. disi aint port injection. i have yet to see a car that was so heavily modded that the CDFP could not keep the rail pressurized. and since you need volume to create pressure, i deem this not needed. if the fuel wasnt getting into the rail fast enough, the pressure would fall off, but no one has seen this yet (not with a good pump anyways !) and the pressure being as high as possible keeps the duty cycle of the injectors low. it is still interesting, but i wont be doing it.

BSFC, thats all that really needs to be said.

If you have a small hole, measure it... find the weight of the fluid you are going to push through it (fuel is like .086 so something) then add the pressure pressent to move the fluid. This will give you the volume that the system can supply. We have done the math and we have found that the smaller holes at 2000 psi can only support 320 to 340 crank horse power with conservative AFR's (11.0). Now if you lean the car out a bit then there is more to be had power wise but at what cost? Motor health...

You can have all the pressure in the world but if the motor is asking for more volume why not give it what it wants? I am sure there are a few smart guys on here that can back up the math with what has been posted for orifice size and the other number for pressure and feul weight. This is not something new, BSFC has been around since petrol power vehicles. You need X fuel to make X power, you can not cheat this because if you try it always ends bad for the motor.