Fuel volume mod > pics and idea inside

[ptperformance]

Originally Posted by redrocketz well is it really an MZR frankenstein motor if they are all parts off an MZR? And BTW DI is only really the way of the future on a select few vehicles. Real power makers are still using traditional fuel injection. Until this shit can really be figured out by some smart people I don't think it's the way of the future.

Not for much longer.
GM has stated that they will be switching over to DI, so will Ford, Toyota and many others by 2012. Its going to be standarized for the industry here before to long. Either you agree to move forward or die watching, thats going to be the only options that we have.

[TRU-BOOST]

i'm gonna call BS on that one. there are at least a dozen cars out there right now making over 320 HP at the crank. it doesnt take much man....TBE, CAI, IC upgrade, 18+psi.....DONE ! i have seen at least 3 cars with dynos at or just above 300WHP that would come out to over 320 at the crank. none of those cars had AFR problems. well laloosh's car has high AFRs all the time ! not to mention all the guys out there with the same or more mods than those guys that are not having a fueling problem.

[redrocketz]

Originally Posted by ptperformance Not for much longer. GM has stated that they will be switching over to DI, so will Ford, Toyota and many others by 2012. Its going to be standarized for the industry here before to long. Either you agree to move forward or die watching, thats going to be the only options that we have.

now here's the real question. what do you honestly think the future of this industry is? people are really cheap honestly they aren't even willing to pay for the correct gas to put in their $40k cars. I hear cheap fucks complaining about how much it cost to fill up their hummer and i seriously want to go lay them out. Car companies are going to get to a point were they are going to cap out because there seriously shouldn't be 500hp+ cars so easily available to some people. Direct Injection is great in it's ways but traditional fuel injection works perfectly really no reason to stray from it. Will I adjust to changes? of course I will but that doesn't mean I have to like it. And like I said until some real players/companies step in and take charge the DI market isn't going anywhere too fast. When I worked for Acura they straight up said they aren't planning anything in the near future.

[whoosh@Realtune]

this mod understandably will not be for everyone

the part of this fuel system that some people are leaving out of their equation is the term "system"
not one magical part like a CDFP upgrade but all the parts that make up the delivery system, including the fuel lines

we know the in tank fuel pump will only support about 400HP(crank)
my extra OEM pump was flow tested at Kinsler and we have proof
so being a self proclaimed common sense thinker, I'm going to have to say that the majority of the rest of the fuel system tops off at about that 400HP limit
so what to do?
you add a pump booster to increase the volatage to the in tank pump which increases the flow to the cam pump which now will support alomost 600HP at 16volts
then you upgrade the CDFP>great plan
what's next?
From what I see...it's a 1.5mm feed hole that will hold you back from ever reaching a certain HP figure over 380-400(again crank HP)>after thinking about it, if the 1.5mm hole can support near 400HP>a 1MM increase in size will most likely be sufficient since 1mm is a 66% increase in size which equates to over 600HP of flow capability (again all theory)
the last item is going to be the tough one......
the injectors
I'm about to post a group testing donation thread over on the 6 club to confirm the flow capability of the injectors
I've been told they have been tested before and are 800cc

After we confirm the injectors are maxed out at the 400HP level, then what?

I have an plan but that's later...

[ptperformance]

Originally Posted by TRU-BOOST i'm gonna call BS on that one. there are at least a dozen cars out there right now making over 320 HP at the crank. it doesnt take much man....TBE, CAI, IC upgrade, 18+psi.....DONE ! i have seen at least 3 cars with dynos at or just above 300WHP that would come out to over 320 at the crank. none of those cars had AFR problems. well laloosh's car has high AFRs all the time ! not to mention all the guys out there with the same or more mods than those guys that are not having a fueling problem.

I stated 320 to 340, there are things like elevation and such that effect dyno readings.

I will state it yet again, do the math for BSFC and you will see what I am getting at. It takes a while to do the math but when its all done you will see what I am getting at.

[ptperformance]

We have 5 injectors sitting at the injector shop right now. I will have flow rates and upgraded unit here in a while if all goes well. I was looking to be the first to have upgraded injectors on the market since no one else feels it important to do anything with the stockers.

Whoosh send me a link for that "donation" for testing I will be more then willing to help.

[Laloosh]

800cc wont support 500whp. My friends rsx is running 750 at 94 percent DC and is running out of fuel....His rsx makes about 350 max

[whoosh@Realtune]

Originally Posted by ptperformance We have 5 injectors sitting at the injector shop right now. I will have flow rates and upgraded unit here in a while if all goes well. I was looking to be the first to have upgraded injectors on the market since no one else feels it important to do anything with the stockers. Whoosh send me a link for that "donation" for testing I will be more then willing to help.

testing is going to be tough
GDI injectors have a different electronic coils that require an adaptor box to test them properly
most places do not have this equipment and frankly are not interested in GDI(gasoline direct injection)

if you are lucky enough to find a place that has the ASNU equipment to test the injectors, you'll be upset to find out that they will be tested at a max of 5 BAR or 72.5PSI
I don't have to remind everyone that we would want flow testing at 1550PSI to 2000PSI
so all you are left to do is calculate the "possible flow" from those numbers

this GDI stuff gives me a headache
I don't mind headaches though.....I'm used to it

Jon, that was not a lecture for you as I'm sure you know this stuff
it's basically FYI for those that want to know

I'll certainly send you a link and I'm going to fire off a few PM's to you about some stuff...

[Speedy3]

Originally Posted by dadasracecar Agreed, our real problem right now IMO is the throttle plate closing.

+1

I agree. I have multiple datalogs showing the "Commanded Throttle Actuator" dropping before my boost has even peaked out. When it does this my car momentarily goes lean (12.5-13.5) then the throttle responds to the lean condition and starts opening again. Fuel pressure was always high (1600-1700 psi) during this. The thing is, nothing in my logs can justify why the throttle plate started closing. It does this when I can honestly say the "butt" dyno felt like the car was pulling hard as hell.

On top of this, with all my mods, I honestly feel like i'm not getting much more power anymore. I think the ECU has adjusted to all the changes, almost like it's trying to keep the power output in check. After many days of driving and letting the ECU adjust, my SW dynos indicate almost the same HP/Tq as before my mods.

I believe that changing fuel flow or injector capacity will only make the ECU reduce fuel pressure or the throttle plate....

[occschemguy]

so how did this mod work out woosh?

[IKILLPEOPLE]

actually, i asked the duty cycle of the injectors, because even injectors in the intake cannot be on 100% of the time, because they will burn out...

[mdogg]

how about we keep this thread to the relevant information to allowing us to push more volume?

[whoosh@Realtune]

Originally Posted by mdogg how about we keep this thread to the relevant information to allowing us to push more volume?

thanks mdogg
I don't even want to post results in this thread anymore
Maybe I'll start another thread...

[enganear]

Originally Posted by whoosh first off, do not try this that is until I test the affects this mod has on fuel pressure this mod is a work in progress at this point but I wanted to let you guys in on the info and idea here is the fuel line that connects to the bottom of the CDFP it snakes around and connects to the fuel rail via the 2 bolt flange this is a pic of the part of the hard line that is inserted into the fuel rail itself here is the interesting part. the fitting that screws into the bottom of the CDFP is 4mm ID the part that inserts into the fuel rail has a small feed hole measuring in at 1.5mm YIKES! at first, I thought there was possibly a spring/diaphram(to regulate) in this part of the line that inserts in the fuel rail as did a VW DI guy I know. I cut the fuel rail part in half to inspect the inside thankfully, it's 4mm ID all the way through except for the 1.5mm restriction so what is the volume mod? enlarging the 1.5mm restriction to 4mm for increased volume as of this writing, I'm not 100% sure the enlargement of the 1.5mm to 4mm will drop rail pressure if it does, this mod was a failed idea if it "doesn't" affect fuel pressure, then I just unlocked a ginormous fueling restriction maybe the 1.5mm hole is there to maintain the rails DI pressures needed for the proper operation of this engine, maybe not one other possibility is enlarging the hole to 2mm or 2.5 for increased volume if the 4mm hole proves to be too big to maintain the proper pressure stay tuned to find out....

This is a worthwhile thread and I apologize for my part in derailing it. So back on topic, have you completed this mod and tried it on the car?
-enganear

[whoosh@Realtune]

Originally Posted by enganear So back on topic, have you completed this mod and tried it on the car? -enganear

I recd my extra fuel lines last night so it's a matter of days to testing

I get frustrated when threads that are meant to inform turn to shit

when members down the road want to look for info, they are forced to read through tons of off topic crap

[NYpest]

Cleaned up a bit !!

[ms3guy22]

Reading through this thread I'm thinking what a decent idea. Then I start noticing all the comments about not being the guy that blows up. Well i'l be god damned if i didn't put a rod through my block on monday. I hate all of you for reminding me what its like being out in front of the industry.

[TRU-BOOST]

any idea why your motor went ? your mods dont look too insane ???

[ms3guy22]

your kidding right? name a mod i don't have

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by ms3guy22 your kidding right? name a mod i don't have

what kind of tune were you running on the standback? were you on the stock map?

btw.... its hard not to take this topic a little "off topic".... when we are discussing the limitations of the fuel system on our cars its inevetitable that questions will be posed that dont relate to the diameter of the free fuel mod. I think this topic will always come right back on when we get results from the experimentations.... at this point this is speculation. Thank you Whoosh for your work here. I think the results good or bad will be big news around here.

[ms3guy22]

jordan helped me tune the car over the phone. a/f never went over 11.2... on a mustang dyno i pulled almost 280 and 300 ft lbs (hitting fuel cut on stock boost) since than i added 4 lbs of boost, fuel pump, manifold, and new turbo, god only know what my numbers were. btw sorry for the thread jacking!!!!

[Haltech]

Originally Posted by whoosh I recd my extra fuel lines last night so it's a matter of days to testing I get frustrated when threads that are meant to inform turn to shit when members down the road want to look for info, they are forced to read through tons of off topic crap

report the thread and we WILL clean it up.

[NYpest]

Guys i mean no disrespect but Woosh has asked that we keep this about the fuel mod ...

[ATE BALLER]

Hey whoosh, are you increasing the size of the hole in the return line as PTP mentioned, or are you trying it without first?

[ptperformance]

Originally Posted by whoosh testing is going to be tough GDI injectors have a different electronic coils that require an adaptor box to test them properly most places do not have this equipment and frankly are not interested in GDI(gasoline direct injection) if you are lucky enough to find a place that has the ASNU equipment to test the injectors, you'll be upset to find out that they will be tested at a max of 5 BAR or 72.5PSI I don't have to remind everyone that we would want flow testing at 1550PSI to 2000PSI so all you are left to do is calculate the "possible flow" from those numbers this GDI stuff gives me a headache I don't mind headaches though.....I'm used to it Jon, that was not a lecture for you as I'm sure you know this stuff it's basically FYI for those that want to know I'll certainly send you a link and I'm going to fire off a few PM's to you about some stuff...

The place I have been sending injectors to are very interested in getting a solution for the MS3 market. They want the DI market attention so when I have more I will get back to you. Then stated that they had the fueling source to run up to 1500 psi. They are looking at getting a system in place that can do up to 15k psi. I am not sure what equipment can be used or bought to make that happen but when I heard that they had 1500 psi applications.... a smile came across my face. I will keep you posted on the details as I get them.

[ptperformance]

Originally Posted by whoosh I recd my extra fuel lines last night so it's a matter of days to testing I get frustrated when threads that are meant to inform turn to shit when members down the road want to look for info, they are forced to read through tons of off topic crap

I have modded dump valves for the pump now. Let me know if you want one for testing.

[ptperformance]

Whoosh I will be calling this weekend. I have some results I want to share with you since it has warmed up here. AFR's are all the way down into the low 8's now. I have so much fuel on the stock pump I am going to have to piggy back the MAF sensor.

[AutoXRacer]

So has this mod been tested yet? Whats the outcome? Status?

[ptperformance]

Originally Posted by AutoXRacer So has this mod been tested yet? Whats the outcome? Status?

I am working the details out right now. I had to order another line because I have to much fuel now. No matter what I do I have black puffs out the back everytime I go WOT. It works very well and I suspect that is a major reason Whoosh has been able to run 20 + psi on the GT35 on his car now.

[winniep]

Originally Posted by ptperformance I am working the details out right now. I had to order another line because I have to much fuel now. No matter what I do I have black puffs out the back everytime I go WOT. It works very well and I suspect that is a major reason Whoosh has been able to run 20 + psi on the GT35 on his car now.

I would MUCH rather have big puffs of black smoke than the alternative.................... BOOM!

[ptperformance]

Originally Posted by winniep I would MUCH rather have big puffs of black smoke than the alternative.................... BOOM!

No you don't get it. Its a ton of fuel, so much my cat smells when I go WOT. I have so much fuel that the mileage is now suffering. I need to find a balance between the 2.

[phailerider]

thats awesome jon...geez. too much fuel? its almost hilarious just to say it. we have waited along time to say those words around here...lol

[ATE BALLER]

How much did you enlarge the orafice? How did it effect the rail pressure?

[whoosh@Realtune]

this mod is bigger than most realize

I'm now playing with the fuel rail...

after enlarging the feed line, the return orafice in the fuel rail to the CDFP is seemingly too small
that is being enlarged as well

with the upgraded CDFP + flow mods
we won't need much more fuel to go big IMO which is a good thing vs. additional injectors, etc etc
but the injectors are still the unknown at this point in terms of cc size and potential
we're working on it guys....

[TRU-BOOST]

i'm missing how there is too much fuel. the car is still ecu controlled correct ? its my understanding that the ecu controls the fuel addition by controling the injectory duty cycle. it bases how long the spray period based on the fuel rail pressure. so just having the abilty to get more fuel to the rail shouldnt matter as far as AFR's are concerned, because the pressure will still be the same, or likely lower than before. i do see this being beneficial when the stock system just cant flow what you need, but i dont see how it would have that kind of effect on a computer controlled car.

[AutoXRacer]

Originally Posted by ptperformance I am working the details out right now. I had to order another line because I have to much fuel now. No matter what I do I have black puffs out the back everytime I go WOT. It works very well and I suspect that is a major reason Whoosh has been able to run 20 + psi on the GT35 on his car now.

So would you say this might be an alternative to a high-flow CDFP...?

[bioevolve]

FYI: Be careful not to run that rich to long if you are catted. Fuel will collect in the cat's substrate, ignite and create extreme temps then eventually melt it. You will start feeling loss of power due the substrate clogging the exhaust flow, sound of hissing will be heard, also the cat will get so hot the car will catch fire. Oh yeah forgot, the metal of the exhaust piping, turbo, turbo manifold before the cats will start to extreme heat crystalize and become brittle and crack if ran like that for awhile before the hissing and fire lol.
If you don't have cats then you are fine, it'll just come out the tail pipe.

[MS3-oholic]

Who is the manufacturer of the injectors for our car. If it's not mazda, maybe the manufacturer has some info they are willing to share with someone. You all have probably thought of that though and got shut down. I just haven't heard of anyone trying this yet.

[Haltech]

50/50 chance its Bosch

[ptperformance]

Originally Posted by palerider thats awesome jon...geez. too much fuel? its almost hilarious just to say it. we have waited along time to say those words around here...lol

Yes way to much fuel. I have to get an idea on pump pressure but they still seem to be falling off. Upgraded pump piston is still going to be a must on these to keep the pressure where its needed.... up top. Volume is there, pressure is not. I will have more info on this in 2 weeks.