Help diagnose my Southbend Clutch issue - hard shifting, gear lockout etc.
 

Figured I would post a thread for help since I'm stuck at this point. A little over a week ago I was driving to my softball game and had just got off the freeway and was sitting at the stoplight waiting for it to turn green. The light turns green and I go to put my car in gear and nothing, I'm completely locked out of gear. I finally get my car in gear and I'm able to move out of the way to let traffic by. As i'm driving I notice my clutch pedal is really really stiff, the grab point was near the floor and the pedal felt very hard and spungy and it was vibrating a good bit. As i'm driving I try to shift from 1st to 2nd and it was hard just getting it out of 1st gear but finally I was able to get it into 2nd and then 3rd and made it to my game. Once I got to my game I had 30 minutes to spare so I popped the hood to do an inspection. I didnt see any fluids anywhere, no leaks and all seemed fine. I kept the car running when I was parked, pulled the e-brake and then put it in 1st gear. When I put the car in gear with the clutch held down and the car running I heard a loud humming noise, something I've never heard before. AS soon as I took it out of gear the humming noise went away. I then put it in 2nd or 3rd gear and the humming noise would come back and the humming noise only happened when the car was running, I was parked and I pressed the clutch pedal in and put it in gear.

So I called my friend to have him strap me up and tow me home. The next day I figured I would check the slave cylinder, so I pulled it off and when I did that it came apart and fluid leaked everywhere. Thought at that point the slave must be bad so I ordered a replacement slave cylinder. Came next day and I installed it, bled the clutch really good with a vacuum bleeder and the clutch pedal felt normal when the car was off. Started it up and took it for a drive and the problem was still there. My mechanic friend came down and we looked at my issue and notice the replacement slave was kind of wet inside the boot so we deemed it defective. I replaced that with another new one, bled it really good and got the clutch pedal back to normal, took it for a test drive and same results, still issues with shifting, clutch pedal changes stiffness etc.

Decided to pull the battery to inspect the hydraulic line and the master cylinder. Noticed the hydraulic line looked a little wet from the crimp where it goes from the hard line to the soft rubber line just above the transmission. Called up the mazda dealership and ordered me a new hydraulic line and a new master cylinder. Figured I would change the hydraulic line first prior to doing the master so I could return the master if needed. I replaced the hydraulic line and issue remained. I then replaced the master clutch cylinder (wow what a PITA, and I hope to never ever do that again) and after replacing the master cylinder the problem remains.

So at this point I've replaced the slave, the master, the hydraulic line with the soft rubber hose on it and problem remains.

Before I pull the transmission, is there any other troubleshooting I should do? Things I should inspect or look at? At this point it has to be something within the clutch area whether it be the pressure plate or throw out bearing. After reading symptoms of a bad throw out bearing, its very possible that went out because of the noise I intermittently hear when I'm stopped, car running and I put it in gear with the clutch still held down is when I hear the humming/buzzing sound. As soon as I put it back in neutral the humming goes away, it only happens when i put it in gear, car running and vehicle stopped. I have the Southbend Stage 3 clutch which I installed in September 2013. I have around 21,000 miles on the clutch so I can't imagine anything is wrong with the clutch, the darn thing was $1,200 for cripes sake. My OEM clutch lasted 90k miles and I didnt even need to change it out. I just wanted something different and Southbend just released their clutch and I wanted it!

A few notes regarding the symptoms I'm having.
*When car is off I can shift through gears smooth as butter (syncro's and tranny are fine)
*When car is off the clutch pedal pressure feels perfect, exactly as it has since I installed it.
*When car is on and I drive say 30mph or 3,000rpm or less, i'm able to get into gear and shift gears just fine.
*The minute I drive faster and put more load on the engine, the clutch pedal loses pressure, feels spongy and extremely difficult to push in and its closer to the floorboard with the grab point at the floorboard for the most part. This is when its difficult to shift to new gears and even difficult to get out of the gear I would currently be in.
*When driving on the freeway I can do 4th gear WOT pulls no problem, zero slippage and the clutch holds like its supposed to. I can shift from 4th to 5th to 6th fairly easy but it's not silky smooth like it should be. If I try to downshift from 6th to 5th its not happening, i can never do a smooth downshift, I have to pump the clutch and rev match to get it to slip into gear and I'll also sometimes hear the gears grinding when doing a downshift.


Sorry for the novel, I'm stumped and I wanted to be as detailed as possible. Hopefully there are some clutch guru's out there that can recommend a few other things to check out and do prior to me pulling the transmission. The hydraulics are all brand new so that has been ruled out.

Any thoughts or ideas for troubleshooting is greatly appreciated.

Might be an odd question but what happens if you have the car on a level surface and you put it in first and hold the clutch down for a minute or so? if it starts rolling you either still have a hydraulic issue or the shift fork that pushes the throw-out bearing may be bent/mangled.

Sadly nearly anything that's not a hydraulic issue is probably going to involve removing the transmission.

I'll give it a try again but for the most part it will stay in place when I have it in gear and hold the clutch down on a level surface.

The only other thing I could think of would be something happened to the pressure plate (cracked, warped, lost a finger, etc.) Usually when bad things happen to the pressure pate, the throw-out bearing gets chewed up and a lot of similar symptoms occur including clutch pedal pulsation. When pressure plates warp or a spring finger gives out prematurely it will unevenly load the throw-out bearing and cause the hydraulic system to pulsate and all sorts of bad sounds will come out.

loose pressure plate bolts? I think you can possibly check without pulling the trans.

phate has some details here: http://www.mazdaspeedforums.org/foru...ml#post1898132

Awesome! Thanks for the link. I may have to try to see if I can access the bolts or view the pressure plate through the boot for inspection.

Keepem coming if anyone else has some suggestions.

I had problems with mine when I first installed it. It was air in the lines. Even with a pressure bleeder It took me several attemps to get all the air out.

I'm a vet at bleeding this clutch. It's fully bled and pressure is back to normal. Wish that's all the problem was.

How are your brakes? I had an issue with my brakes being spongy at the first pump; replaced everything, bled multiple times, etc. It was fixed when I bled the clutch and then the brakes. I didn't give it a second thought, even though they share a reservoir it just didn't make sense that air in the clutch would affect braking performance. But it did. I wonder if the reverse is also true in some instances: spongy clutch being fixed by bleeding the brakes. Yeah I know, it's a longshot, but it's easy to do.

Did you replace the throw out bearing when you installed the new clutch? Definitely sounds like a throw out bearing issue with the buzzing noise part of it.

I've been through a lot of clutch issues, here's another from the archives, lol:

http://www.mazdaspeedforums.org/foru...hrough-106264/

When my buddy had his wrx his throw out bearing went out and it did make that buzzing/humming noise, although he didnt have any other adverse affects.

Like was stated above maybe throwout is the effect of something with the pressure plate.

Finally I found someone with my issues... @Matrix311;
Other than the leaking slave and clutch pipes you had/have, my symptoms generally start once I've driven for a while and weather is warm to hot outside.

What I've been feeling recently is when the car is ridden for a longer length of time without shifting and I try to shift, the pedal is super spongy and needs a quick " clutch pedal pump" in order to move on the the next gear.

In the morning, after the car has sat over night it shifts smoothly with no problems until I almost reach my job, 38miles/55mins speeds ranging from 40-60mph.
Once I get in the car in the afternoon to head home the clutch pedal is noticeably different (soft) even after sitting between 6&10hours.

I got my SB stg3, exedy TOB, and rear main seal replaced on 8/13/14, as of now I have just under 13k miles on it in just under 8 months and since the day the clutch was installed the pedal pressure was at the least twice the amount of force to push. The guy at the shop told me it was normal and would go away after break in, it honestly didn't change much.

Fast forward 3 months after install, I begin to feel differences In the way the pedal feels, I call the shop and they tell me what I'm describing sounds to be a hydraulic issue and not an install/part failure problem. I make the same concern call to Southbend and they also said that it sounds like a hydraulic issue and they "doubted" it was a part failure, but that they would warrant any failures.

I have an appointment with "the shop" on Wednesday to inspect the issue and I'm just waiting for the headaches to begin.. :(

What I HAVE done to try to remedy this is as follows:
Changed out the slave and the master (and yes what a PITA), bled the system numerous times in different manners, being that my symptom continues I took it to the dealer to bleed it (in case I if didn't do it right) and problem is still there.

This has totally taken the fun factor away from driving my car and am soooo done with this crap!

LMK what you find. Thx

This is making me nervous after buying a southbend sg 2 endurance clutch for my build.

Well.. im having a feeling my pressure plate has failed or something.. last night this ckutch issue has caused my new oem master cyl, installed last month fail! AAA to the rescue at 2 in the morning to take my sorry ass home smh....
Ended up putting my old Master back on today.. hopefullybit holds up till Wednesday. .. fml

I got over 12k on my stage 3 with no problems. After I got my slave cylinder problem figured out.

How did you know your master went out? Did it break a seal and was it leaking down your firewall or something? My master cylinder is still perfectly fine, along with my hydraulic line and I have a 2nd brand new slave cylinder.

Regarding your issues, when your clutch pedal felt soft and spongy, did you get to a point of resistance when you would push the clutch pedal in? For example, when mine loses its pressure and I go to push it in, the clutch pedal doesn't push down as far as it normally would, it usually gets about 90% of the way and at the furthest point its extremely difficult to push it any further and the pedal pulses to the engine it feels like. Regardless its very strange! I cannot explain it because i've never experienced anything like this with any vehicle I've owned.

So now that finally just left today around noon i'm going to start digging into my car and start working on pulling the transmission. I ordered a new throw out bearing from Edge on Friday so i'm hoping it ships today and gets delivered early this week.

Regarding the person above who asked if i replaced the throw out bearing upon installation, indeed I did. I put a new TOB and pilot bearing on during the install.

So i'm hoping that when I pull the tranny I see a defective TOB and the fingers on the pressure plate are fine. Really wish it was just a hydraulic issue but unfortunately its not since I replaced everything.

Sb pressure plate it just an saches hd pressure plate nothing special and very tuff to hurt unless it had some serious abuse. I went through 2 slaves before I found out how hard to bleed the air out of the system. It can be done with out a power bleeder but good luck. I blew 2 trying to do it the old way with lots of pumping. The first one blew as soon as I thought all the air was out a couple more pumps and it started leaking. The second one made it a couple miles then started shifting hard as it would lose pressure. The 3rd one worked perfect with a power bleeder but took several attemps to get all the air out. I had to let it sit pressured for a long long time and the bubbles just kept comming up through the master. Eventually the bubbles stopped and all has been great since. it was all in the bleeding.

What kind of grease did you use on the spline the throw out bearing moves along? I think that may be my problem with it drying up not allowing it to move properly. I'll see if I can borrow a camera from someone to try to view the TOB for confirmation.

Ya I can't imagine the southbend pressure plate is the issue. I dont abuse my car, I dont track it or race it, granted i do have fun with the on-ramps to the freeway but that is far and few between. I just drive my car mainly to the gym and back and around town and thats about it. I work from home 24/7 so I dont rack up a ton of miles on it. I'm really hoping its the TOB but wont know until I drop the tranny.

The humming sound I get when I put my car in gear when the car is running and i'm at a stop leads me to believe its the TOB at this point.

Yes it shouldn't be humming. I did find it easyier with my last trans pull to leave the driver side axel in the trans for removal I had a hard time getting it to come out so I just said forget stay there lol

say what? You left it in there? I'll pop it out. The key to getting the driver side cv axle out is to use an oversized pickel fork. Just wedge it between the transmission and the larger fat part on the axle and wack it with a hammer and it applies equal force to pop the c-clip and also applies an even straight back wedge hit on the splines. Works everytime and takes 1 second to remove. Thats the key to the axle removal on the driver side. Passenger side is cake, just pull on it and it slides right out.

Both times I pulled my trans I just left in in there. It's not in the way of anything really. And I didn't have any forks to help me. I did have an axle puller but I did not have the right end for it to fit my axle.

So you removed the axle out of the hub though correct?

Did you use a lift or did you have your car on jackstands?

Did you drop the subframe to give more room to move the transmission around for when you pulled it and put it back in?

When I pulled my transmission the first time for installing this clutch back in 2013 I pulled the axles and left the subframe in place and it was a major PITA trying to get finagle the transmission out and it was even more difficult trying to get it back in place.

The 2nd time I pulled the transmission was when I pulled my engine for doing the rebuild after I went ZZB. That was cake because I could remove the tranny from the block outside the car when it was on the engine hoist.

So this will be my 3rd time pulling the tranny and I'll be jacking it up as high as I can with the floor jacks I have. I also have a nice tranny jack i'll be using this time around. I also plan on dropping the subframe this time, so any tips/tricks you have for pulling the transmission please post up! Thanks in advance.

@matrix311 I got the sb stage 3 after reading your build. I am very happy with it. You have been very helpful to lots of people with your build posts.

Yes I pulled it out of the hub first and removed the subframe. I used 6 ton jack stands front and rear and a cheap harber freight trans jack. Junk but it got the job done. I Used a top motor support brace to hold the motor. And Matt Damond's guide to how to replace cluch. It has a few errors and there's a couple things that don't need to be done. but it was very helpfull I printed it out and followed it step by step mostly anyways.

Update for ya!

Pulled the transmission today and checked the throw out bearing and it was fine. Next thing I did was head to the clutch and removed the pressure plate. After first inspection all the fingers on the pressure plate looked perfectly fine (shew). Once I removed the pressure plate a piece of metal fell on the floor. Here I discovered the clutch disk has a broken retainer clip on one of the springs. This would explain why I had the issues I had when trying to engage the clutch.

Well now I have all new hydraulics, a new throw out bearing which just arrived today that i'll install just because I have it and the tranny is out and now I'm hoping Southbend will warranty my clutch disk even though I'm outside a year old and because I only have 21,000 miles on the clutch. I dont race, I dont go into boost very often and I drive my car pretty mild. Sucks that this only lasted 21k miles. I would expect a lot more from a $1,200 clutch.

Here are some photos for ya!

Carnage:
http://www.esimaging.net/photos/i-5G...-5G2WscD-L.jpg

Tons of meat left and still looks brand new!
http://www.esimaging.net/photos/i-vH...-vH83vPv-L.jpg

http://www.esimaging.net/photos/i-4t...-4tdQ8pk-L.jpg

http://www.esimaging.net/photos/i-3d...-3dK5NNW-L.jpg

http://www.esimaging.net/photos/i-HM...-HMnG5Rh-L.jpg

http://www.esimaging.net/photos/i-Dj...-DjKTNng-L.jpg

http://www.esimaging.net/photos/i-23...-23wwmdD-L.jpg

Wow crazy!! Clutch and pressure plate look new still. How's the flywheel look?

flawless, looks brand new as well. AS you can see It's in perfect shape yet so not sure why the damn thing broke.

Here are some more photos of the condition of the clutch disk, pressure plate and flywheel.

http://www.esimaging.net/photos/i-KN...-KNVVWTC-L.jpg

http://www.esimaging.net/photos/i-6T...-6TMF98b-L.jpg

http://www.esimaging.net/photos/i-Tj...-TjFFkqf-L.jpg

http://www.esimaging.net/photos/i-S9...-S9Hwm4X-L.jpg

http://www.esimaging.net/photos/i-Pv...-PvTT9J9-L.jpg

http://www.esimaging.net/photos/i-jX...-jXk7X2t-L.jpg

http://www.esimaging.net/photos/i-2C...-2CNfJvn-L.jpg

http://www.esimaging.net/photos/i-4d...-4dTZLxv-L.jpg

http://www.esimaging.net/photos/i-4B...-4BLpVC2-L.jpg

Weak sauce. 52k on my CM with nearly 400 launches saw the same failure. Didn't know it until I swapped it last weekend.

http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h1...psezdatcx1.jpg

I'll be treating down my tans this wknd... I'm tired of this crap already. .. lol
To be honest I'm hoping to find a failed part since I'm still under warranty. . Except for the TOB that is. . It's an exedy.

Southbend is taking care of me! They said I am the first to contact them regarding an issue with this clutch. They have no other reports of problems and because of this, they are sending me a new clutch disk. They said my clutch disk was the first generation disk they released and they have since redesigned them. The new clutch disk i'll be receiving will be quieter and stronger they said, so thats a bonus!

Besides this little issue, anyone looking to buy Southbend for their car, I would still highly recommend them.

They lie.. "first one" smh.. I've been talking to them for months and know of two other cases of failure. I can't wait to look inside to see what I find.

Granted I don't know if mine is first generation as yours. It was purchased/installed in Aug 2014

Maybe I'm the first one with a broken clutch disk?

glad you got it figured out and it was covered by them!

bummer you had to pull the trans but after pulling the engine and trans it probably didnt take you too long.

Replacement clutch disk shipped out on Friday. I will have it on Thursday. Looking forward to getting my car back on the ground and off of jackstands

Did they warranty it or did you have to buy a new clutch disk?

They covered it. From all the photos I sent them of the pressure plate, flywheel and clutch disk (as noted above) its obvious i did not beat on my clutch. Due to the minimal wear and tear of the clutch and for the clutch disk to be cracked in 3 of 4 springs they figured it may have been a defect right away. The clutch disks they use for our clutch are some of the highest end disks they manufacture so for them to see it cracked like that was very out of the ordinary. This is the first report they have seen of a broken clutch disk so they are covering it for me which is great even though I'm out of the warranty period they still covered it.

Nice! props to them for being stand up folks.

Just got my replacement clutch disk today. This disk is definitely different from my old disk.

First thing I notice is its made in Japan by Exedy. My old disk has no manufacturer information on it so I'm guessing it's made in house at South Bend.

Anyone else with a new southbend clutch also see the same on their disk?

Anyone know what version stage 3 disk they sent me based off the part number?

Pictures of the two disks for comparison.

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15...3e6ae2fdf3.jpg

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15...2ba5753d5f.jpg

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15...9de7025b80.jpg

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15...642378c056.jpg

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15...dc22f58a03.jpg

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15...21ad9f03e9.jpg

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15...e93d5bb1cb.jpghttp://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15...d329df4221.jpg

Mine looks nothing like that! Is that a stage 3 Daily Driver?

It's a stage 3 yes I just don't know which stage 3 version

Well I ended up taking it out and going with the luk clutch kit and fidanza flywheel. . I have to send my kit bak to SB for testing though im pretty sure it was install error on Rev Works Inc...
I was told that the stock is known for holding more than or atleast 400whp which is where im near so we'll see..
If they warranty it ill have a stg3 DD to sell.. if they dont then ill be going after the shop that installed it improperly with the evidence that im putting together. To start off they didnt lube my release bearing.... smh

Here's my dry TOB sleeve. ..
http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15...5c2b64a21a.jpg
http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15...9e002a1d99.jpg

This is what they did when I asked them to replace my Rear Main Seal and they charged me $100 including the seal.
http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15...00a0690d69.jpg
http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15...3cf6bdd589.jpg

After all this time dealing with this issue thats what's left of my clutch and PP. .
http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15...b323bfc134.jpg
http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15...68bea22a15.jpg
http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15...f49d24d775.jpg

Did you have this issue with your PP hitting the bell housing?
http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15...4d23dad1f3.jpg
http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15...67361cac95.jpg
http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15...ca79455324.jpg
http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15...83618b83f3.jpg

I am beyond pissed with this situation...

My new luk cluch kit. . Though I'm not to sure about that Release bearing comparing it to my exedy one...
http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15...1494bf9ccd.jpg

Ya I looked at my pressure plate and looks like it was rubbing. Guess I never noticed any issues. What problems to people have when the pressure plate hits the bell housing?

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15...484674146d.jpg
http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15...e83afec5e0.jpg
http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15...2968d8e8d4.jpg

Do both of you guys have a 2007? I don't have any issues with my stage 3 endurance yet...

Mine is an 07 yes.

Apparently the bell housing needs to be grinned down near the release fork... theres athread im told on here..

im an 09

Link the thread please

I havent looked for it.. I was told there was..

At this point I already know about the issue andbyou confirmed it with your PP... lol

I just wanted to know how to fix it and where exactly it needs to be ground down and how much to grind.

What issues may we see if we don't grind the bell housing?

Also taking measurements of my tob, luk vs exedy... theres a discrepancy. ..
The exedy is really close to the size of the sleeve and the luk has more play...
http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15...092df2cd53.jpg
Sleeve ^

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15...8ac148cd6f.jpg
Exedy^

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15...823aa16f6c.jpg
Luk^

Look at the bell housing you should see marks in front of the fork..
http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15...bacccf6e48.jpg

Like this^

You are not using the oem throw out bearing?
Inside of my bell housing is fine.

I have a question. .. wich way was the large hub side of the clutch disc facing? The PP or FW?

Flatter side is pressure plate and the larger side that protrudes outward more goes flywheel side.

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15...1f7874464a.jpg
http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15...165d24b2c8.jpg

New throw out bearing installed.
http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15...0e45df64c1.jpg
http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15...7955b28071.jpg

Cleaned up the pressure plate and flywheel with emery cloth and looks new now.

http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15...836d0cb619.jpg
http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15...980ab1f044.jpg
http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15...30bf17f580.jpg
http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15...e62d7223e2.jpg
http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15...99fb07ca6b.jpg

All back in
http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15...86f51ae553.jpg

So how does it feel? Any diff?

Ill be getting my new fidanza fly wheel tomorrow and will be installing the luk kit instead.. its a shame because other than the xtremely heavy pedal and before the major issues afterwards, I liked the way the SB hooked...

Once I get a few testimonies from mechanic shops of their impression on the codition of SB parts I took off, im sending it to SB for final testing.

I honeatly dont know what went wrong other than "rev works" not lubricating the tob sleeve and botching my rear main seal install that cost $110 with the part... go figure :/

We'll see... I just need my car back on the road.. im tired of this shii....

I will button it up today. I ran out of time on Friday and was out wheeling my jeep all day yesterday so today I will finish it up. But I did connect the slave and then pushed the pedal and it's nice and stiff like before. I'm sure it will feel exactly the same as before.

Stay tuned for results

Silly question; how do you torque the FW to crankshaft bolts with the engine still in the car? Is engine compression enough to make that happen?

I'm considering the SB stage 2 enduro clutch but the fact that the pressure plate touches the bell housing is a small concern.

Have a buddy hold the crankbolt while you torque the flywheel bolts down. Crankbolt I believe is a 22mm

Shave down a lil portion of the BH with a grinder in the area of th pic that I posted and you should be fine...

Just wanted to toss out an update! Just finished the car up and went for a test drive and all is back to normal. Car shifts perfect and smooth as butter again. One thing I will mention regarding the clutch disk which i'm highly impressed with is the chatter. There is basically ZERO clutch chatter with this newly revised clutch disk I received from South Bend. It was really quiet to begin with when I had the old clutch disk but the new one is amazing. Compare this to an ACT and you'll think I have a stock oem clutch still in the car.

Glad to have my car back on the road again. Time to get an alignment tomorrow and give my car a wash.

Update on my end.. I put the luk kit and fidanza fw, it feels way too dam light :/ it's engages smooth right now (new feel) I hope it don't get any lighter after break in... I'll be sending the SB kit back this week to get inspected.. the saga continues.

Please post back up what southbend says after they look at it.
I'm really loving my clutch again. Now with all new hydraulics and a different clutch disk, this feels great! Just hope this clutch disk lasts longer than 20k miles.