Here's the paper- siezed pistons; blown MZR engines

[trickytwelveinch]

The only reason I posted this was because there was an argument going on in a different thread with 3 gents. I never claimed this "paper" to be some sort of final thesis or a be-all-end all- it was nothing more than paragraphs put together at that time.

I'm amused how many piss-rode that silly document yet the some of the same people don't have any basic comprehension skills either. It amazes me that those of you that still ride my ass actually took a company like RR so seriously when they first approached this forum with what they have done with the MS3 platform. You claim to have so much knowledge yet you look like idiots when RR pulled a fast one on you- the sad part is- you believed what they preached. You believed their silly dyno charts, 1/4 miles videos.....

Some things are taken way too seriously. Half these engines blew cause of retarded people who probably shouldn't have been driving a manual car to begin with. There's so many threads on here about failed mods no one these engines blew. If you can't install simple fuel pump internals why are you modding your car?

If you're modding and at the same time "learning" don't bitch and complain how these motors suck when shit hits the fan. There's a price to pay for incompetence.

If there really was something wrong with these motors there would be a recall. Simple. Some of you are looking way too deep into this. There's no Mazda conspiracy, no design flaw. Just a few idiots who don't know how to drive stick, don't install parts correctly and/or forget to put something back in.

I apologize for beating around the bush for such a long time with that silly paper. I should have spoken like this from the beginning. It's really inconsiderate of me and I apologize.

[RayRayBauder]

i thought this shit would never be up.

i didn't know 32 degrees F was 14 degrees C

you learn something new everyday.

[Erich]

Originally Posted by RayRayBauder i thought this shit would never be up. i didn't know 32 degrees F was 14 degrees C you learn something new everyday.

It's that new math. They made 0 14 to avoid divide by 0 errors.

[FreeFlyFreak]

Right now there is not much there.
I appreciate the work you have put in but.....
Why not just post your conclusions?
If we need clarification on any points we will ask for it.
That would be easier than writing a whole paper to basically say:

1) Warm the car up before you beat on it
2) Don't let your car overheat
3) Use a quality oil of the correct viscosity.
4) Change your oil and filter at regular intervals.
and all will be good.
Which is what i am guessing your conclusions are by reading what is in the paper so far.

FIXED:

Originally Posted by trickytwelveinch Things that still needed to be added: comparison of pistons on a general scale, debunk theories vs. facts, diagrams, data from users who's engines blew for verification and data, data logs, and honesty. CONCLUSIONS

[Lex]

It's pretty hard to follow what you're getting at. It seems you've pulled some information from external sources that doesn't fit in the body of the paper.

Anyways, legibility and fallacies aside and to keep this professional, what you're trying to say is that engines blow at part throttle because damage was done to the piston bearing??

What is the piston bearing? You mean the rod small end bearing? Piston rings?

Just a little info for you. The wrist pins are full floating. This means they spin both inside the rod bearing and piston itself. It would be VERY difficult to seize both the piston side and rod side.

Further, I have not seen any signs of wrist pin seizures in these engines. Everyone who blew were able to pull the wrist pin free and there was no scoring, bluing etc. Oil squirters make sure everything is fairly well lubricated underneath the piston.

finish it. i just read and now i'm left wanting more

[jahman]

Well, regardless of whether or not this is the magical answer or not. I think its at least good basic knowledge that everyone should know...that is if the paper is not about to make a dramatic turn toward something else.

With that being said, I think you should finish it. Right or wrong, agree or disagree, it'll still be useable information for the community for those that don't understand these points. I know a LOT of people who start their car up piss cold and have that fucker moving and the pedal to the floor before theres barely 4 strokes of the engine...thats why I think you should finish it.

[trickytwelveinch]

Originally Posted by FreeFlyFreak 1) Warm the car up before you beat on it 2) Don't let your car overheat 3) Use a quality oil of the correct viscosity. 4) Change your oil and filter at regular intervals. and all will be good. Which is what i am guessing your conclusions are by reading what is in the paper so far. FIXED:

Conclusions don't mean anything without a basic foundation.

Not every car is made the same.

1) Operating temp of oil is 180+..... 180 is the bare minimal... it takes, at idle, almost 30 minutes to warm up synthetic oil at idle alone in 40F-50F give or take. 30 minutes, however, it only takes (using my car as an example) 15 min or so in the same temperature to warm up the engine coolant to its operating temperature of at least 187 F. While the needle at the dash shows that the cars temp reached it's operating temps the synthetic oil temp is only at around 120-135 F- depending on the outside temps.

How many people that I know personally don't warm their car up or warm their ECT up to spec and go beat the shit out of it? Might as well start the car and start revving the hell out of it or go beat on it.


2) No, bro no. What you mean don't let your car over-heat? Sorry, but that's to ambigius? So, not trying to be an asshole why would I just post my conclusions if you say something broad like "don't let your car over-heat" that the equivelnt of a person coming on the forum and stating "my engine blew" that doesn't tell me anything or the guy going to get a tune and saying I want 400!!WHP... why? Again, that doesn't tell me anything.... 400 is just a number- it doesn't mean it's going to run good like the guy who is doing 320WHP.

Just because your temp needle doesn't go up doesn't mean you're not damaging the car from external heat. Heat needs to be controlled. You honestly think running exposed headers and down-pipe with a hood that is not vented is "safe" on the engine in the long run especially it extremely hot environments?


3) 10/30, 5/30 hardly a difference. My Subie buddy went straight to syntehtic RP 10/40 after buying his car even though Subaru recommends 5/30...30K miles later... no issues.


4) What are regular intervals? 3K? 4k? 5K? Don't answer- it's a hypothetical question. Did you ever smell brand new engine oil? Smells like detergent? How many of you can tell me that after 2-3K miles your engine still smelled like detergent? I know when I was stock it still did, now, I never bother to see. Majority- will smell like it's burned.

Originally Posted by Lex It's pretty hard to follow what you're getting at. It seems you've pulled some information from external sources that doesn't fit in the body of the paper. Anyways, legibility and fallacies aside and to keep this professional, what you're trying to say is that engines blow at part throttle because damage was done to the piston bearing?? What is the piston bearing? You mean the rod small end bearing? Piston rings? Just a little info for you. The wrist pins are full floating. This means they spin both inside the rod bearing and piston itself. It would be VERY difficult to seize both the piston side and rod side. Further, I have not seen any signs of wrist pin seizures in these engines. Everyone who blew were able to pull the wrist pin free and there was no scoring, bluing etc. Oil squirters make sure everything is fairly well lubricated underneath the piston.

I'll try to explain in a nutshell using my own speed3 as the example...

Explain to me why I never ever had any issues with my car? I beat on when I chose to beat on it- when I drive it there's at least a time when I do beat on it- and, no, it's not a lucky car out of the bunch.

Locally here, there's a nice group of us that have speed3's, Subies, Evo's and shit and all of us doubt the cars blew at half throttle- however, let's not argue that point.

I never once had any knock, a/f rations are within spec, and here are some numbers from recent pulls/cruises:

AAT: 52 F
IAT: 52 F
ECT: 187 F
BAT: 87-100

That's even after the car has been running for an hour whether it's on the highway or at normal cruising speeds on the streets.

Honestly man it's hard for me to take someones word especially over the internet from somebody I have never even meet. One guy could beat the shit out of his car and nothing will happen and the other guy could paper it or do "everything by the book" and still blow- so what's between there?

I'm not judging anyone but how many threads where on this forum about people having issues installing CAI/SRI, DP, Headers...etc the list goes on. How many people had issues with PID's such as A/F ratios, knock, etc after installing basic bolt-ons like a CAI/SRI....

During that same time period there were lots of users who didn't have any monitoring devices. So, if you install an CAI and for some odd ass reason you end up running leaner (without knowing) and blow a few months later after adding more bolt ons-when the damage was already done.

It's all aluminum, metal, iron and shit it's not rocket science. Metal, aluminum eventually wears down. No engine is alike. One is stronger than the other. Excessive heat might damage one engine prematurely where it won't do jack to a different engine.

How much punishment you think the MZR engine will handle if you replace the rods and pistons? They're not going to last forever.

PCV- it's not going to stay clean forever. How many of you actually bothered replacing it every 12K miles- for those who are well into the 50K's on their ODO...I guarantee you all of them still had the same PCV since day one.

Regardless, the engine couldn't have been properly broken in. I'll try to find the "key" article on this one from the Davidson guys where it pretty much states that by not bring their bikes (in our case- same concept applies) up to high RPM's during it's "break in" period could cause the pistons rings to settle improperly.

There were many there's especially over at msf and 247 where kids would ask how to properly break in an engine- and there were tons of information that was posted that was simply incorrect.

[Lex]

The fact that you say you never had ANY knock (KR I am assuming) ever makes me doubt things. The PCM is calibrated to encounter KR during certain operating conditions.

I agree people abuse things and eventually something fails. If you're careful, it's less likely to fail. And just because you've never had any issues doesn't mean you will never have any issues.

On top of this, although some principles apply, there are many that don't between a Harley and a DISI engine so be careful there.

The point of the exercise is to pinpoint what is failing and how. There are many factors, and I agree one of the factors is mis-use.

[phantom3]

Wow... I can't believe I actually wasted the time to read that. Thank you for telling me what I already know.

All this bitching and harping on Lex and all you have is 2 pages of useless crap that we all know.

[trickytwelveinch]

Originally Posted by Lex I agree people abuse things and eventually something fails. If you're careful, it's less likely to fail. And just because you've never had any issues doesn't mean you will never have any issues.

It's the weakest link that fails. Baisc knoweldge but let me throw it out: start with a stock car. Slap on bolt ons: CAI, FMIC, Headers, Exhaust well, in regards to air flow- the weakest links were eliminated. Now that the car got a tune, let says, and is going X amount of power more than stock- the next weakest components will go..... say you take care of the intake manifold.... then you move on to the next weakest link and it goes on and on. Robbie's engine- shit load of money, but that engine is bullet-proof.. what's the most common weakest link for him? Transmission.

On top of this, although some principles apply, there are many that don't between a Harley and a DISI engine so be careful there.

Well, of course. Same applies with a port injection engine and a DISI even though there are common principles that do apply but to a certain degree.

The point of the exercise is to pinpoint what is failing and how. There are many factors, and I agree one of the factors is mis-use.

[/quote]

Ahh, and we caught up with Santa Clause in the NP.

I am no arguing because we could sit here for years going back and forth- some things like this will always be debated. For example, take my best friend who owns the Subie, doesn't visit forums is well educated but there are things I still disagree with- some of which apply to both worlds. Have him slap on bolts on a stock engine and get it dynoed- chances are the car will blow on the dyno. Let's say the piston seizes..... why would he take his time trying to figure out something that is common understanding? He over-stressed the engine and let's say the rod bent- due to excessive amount of power for that stock rod to handle.... well, it's known. To avoid failure of his stock engine when chasing big power- remove the weakest links.

In any world when chasing big power- bottom line is, build the engine first and remove the weakest links. I'm a simple type of fella. If I want big power I'm not going to fuck with OEM parts (especially pistons and rods) because I know they will give out eventually for one reason or another. The first thing I do is build the god damn thing.

Originally Posted by phantom3 Wow... I can't believe I actually wasted the time to read that. Thank you for telling me what I already know. All this bitching and harping on Lex and all you have is 2 pages of useless crap that we all know.

LOL good for you buddy- good thing is the feeling is mutual.

[Thestaplegunkid]

Pretty much what we all expected from him I think.

I hope his "Real" life stays busy... and he doesn't have time for the "interweb" world.

[smakdown61]

I started to read this then realized there are ZERO references to back up ANYTHING you wrote. You did go to college right? I suggest you learn how to actually right a scientific paper before you post garbage like that. That paper is the interwez e-penis ego summed up in a nutshell.

What kind of credentials do you have to make these kinds of theories without evidence? Are you an accredited engine builder? Degree in materials science or mechanical engineering? So far you haven't proven to anyone that you have the proper knowledge to spit out ANY theory hence the reason everyone thinks you are full of shit all the time.

Originally Posted by trickytwelveinch I am no arguing because we could sit here for years going back and forth- some things like this will always be debated. For example, take my best friend who owns the Subie, doesn't visit forums is well educated but there are things I still disagree with- some of which apply to both worlds. Have him slap on bolts on a stock engine and get it dynoed- chances are the car will blow on the dyno.

WTF. You think a stock wrx will blow when you put on bolt-ons? You got facts to back that up?

[trickytwelveinch]

Wow, I didn't realize there's so many self-proclaimed experts.

Originally Posted by smakdown61 I started to read this then realized there are ZERO references to back up ANYTHING you wrote. You did go to college right? I suggest you learn how to actually right a scientific paper before you post garbage like that. That paper is the interwez e-penis ego summed up in a nutshell. What kind of credentials do you have to make these kinds of theories without evidence? Are you an accredited engine builder? Degree in materials science or mechanical engineering? So far you haven't proven to anyone that you have the proper knowledge to spit out ANY theory hence the reason everyone thinks you are full of shit all the time. WTF. You think a stock wrx will blow when you put on bolt-ons? You got facts to back that up?

Did you ever read the part when I said it's not even done and/or the part when I said what still needs to be added to this article?

And yes, I've seen dynos kill WRX with heavy bolts ons, bigger turbos and what not.

Buddy, listen, I am not here to prove anything- especially to people like you. Like I stated many times earlier all I care about is the fact that my car runs great, if you blow your engine or anyone else for that matter- I don't care.

You belong in threads like Scott Nasty posted about how to fail installing headers. Go grab some bears and go work on installing some silly bolt ons while telling yourself you know what you are doing.

Originally Posted by Thestaplegunkid Pretty much what we all expected from him I think. I hope his "Real" life stays busy... and he doesn't have time for the "interweb" world.

Yeah, and I really bet you that you blew your motor going half throttle.

It's OK. Not all of us have the skills when building engines or installing simple mods. Next time go take it to a professional and maybe you won't screw up installing an intake or doing something else that would otherwise be considered "severely retarded" and come on here BS you blew half-throttle.

[darth vader]

I don't want to be a hater but, for God's sake, man, you could have pulled the info presented so far out of any high school general mechanic's textbook. It applies as well to the DISI as to a Model T.

I've been hot rodding cars and bikes since the early 1980s and I read, for pleasure, technical papers on historical aviation engines. I'm a shop teacher and I have also taught senior English. This paper isn't even sufficient for a first draught. This would go back to the student with the note that that he needed to gather more concrete evidence, form a proper hypothesis, provide a proper executive summary, show the method of investigation and draw some cogent conclusions based on the data from the investigation.

I suggest you look at some of those old-school engineering articles for some pointers on producing a proper engineering article. Here's a link:

AEHS Home

[smakdown61]

Originally Posted by trickytwelveinch Wow, I didn't realize there's so many self-proclaimed experts. Did you ever read the part when I said it's not even done and/or the part when I said what still needs to be added to this article? And yes, I've seen dynos kill WRX with heavy bolts ons, bigger turbos and what not. Buddy, listen, I am not here to prove anything- especially to people like you. Like I stated many times earlier all I care about is the fact that my car runs great, if you blow your engine or anyone else for that matter- I don't care. You belong in threads like Scott Nasty posted about how to fail installing headers. Go grab some bears and go work on installing some silly bolt ons while telling yourself you know what you are doing. Yeah, and I really bet you that you blew your motor going half throttle. It's OK. Not all of us have the skills when building engines or installing simple mods. Next time go take it to a professional and maybe you won't screw up installing an intake or doing something else that would otherwise be considered "severely retarded" and come on here BS you blew half-throttle.

If you aren't here to prove anything then why the fuck are you writing a "paper" about your theory. Why are you trolling threads proclaiming you have the end all answer to why engines are blowing?

You really need to learn how to articulate a theory and present it in a decent way if you don't want people shitting all over you. The fact that your car runs great does absolutely shit to back your theory up. Have you studied statistics at all?

And for the thing with the wrx, give me your phone number and i'll have some the best known subie tuners in the country call you to tell you how full of shit you are on that front. Just because YOU see shit with YOUR eyes doesn't make it a fact for EVERY car out there. You need to get that little thought in your head.

Do some fucking REAL research for god sakes. Even if your paper isn't done you should still have SOME references to back up your claims even if they haven't been marked in the paper itself.

Originally Posted by darth vader I don't want to be a hater but, for God's sake, man, you could have pulled the info presented so far out of any high school general mechanic's textbook. It applies as well to the DISI as to a Model T. I've been hot rodding cars and bikes since the early 1980s and I read, for pleasure, technical papers on historical aviation engines. I'm a shop teacher and I have also taught senior English. This paper isn't even sufficient for a first draught. This would go back to the student with the note that that he needed to gather more concrete evidence, form a proper hypothesis, provide a proper executive summary, show the method of investigation and draw some cogent conclusions based on the data from the investigation. I suggest you look at some of those old-school engineering articles for some pointers on producing a proper engineering article. Here's a link: AEHS Home

He should look here as well:

SAE International

[lidokrantz]

i think trickytwelveinch should finish his paper....i am sure he is not trying to give mis-information on the MZR, and i am sure he is not to concerned about being grammatically correct in his writing. It seems that his theories are based on common sense, with a little opinion mixed in...right or wrong, it seems he is putting his opinions out there, and deserves some respect...We do not have to agree with them, but at least keep an open to mind to his thoughts...True, much of what's been mentioned has been discussed already, but i am all ears and willing to read and think about his opinions, even without documentation...in the end it's the END USER who decides to follow someones theories and the END USER should decide and have the common sense to only follow things if he is comfortable with them
Let's here the rest 12inch...you opened up this thread and you now have to finish it!!!.....

[trickytwelveinch]

Originally Posted by darth vader I don't want to be a hater but, for God's sake, man, you could have pulled the info presented so far out of any high school general mechanic's textbook. It applies as well to the DISI as to a Model T. I've been hot rodding cars and bikes since the early 1980s and I read, for pleasure, technical papers on historical aviation engines. I'm a shop teacher and I have also taught senior English. This paper isn't even sufficient for a first draught. This would go back to the student with the note that that he needed to gather more concrete evidence, form a proper hypothesis, provide a proper executive summary, show the method of investigation and draw some cogent conclusions based on the data from the investigation. I suggest you look at some of those old-school engineering articles for some pointers on producing a proper engineering article. Here's a link: AEHS Home

Good for you; keep it up! I honestly don't care what you've been doing since the 80's old timer. You thought senior English and are a shop teacher? Good credentials. I graduated with honors, got a bachelors in audio/electrical engineering and on my to getting an ASE certification. So, fucking what? Wake up- this is the internet forums- half the posts on here are bullshit to begin with with people thinking after installing a fucking CAI they're fucking engine experts.

Originally Posted by smakdown61 Just because YOU see shit with YOUR eyes doesn't make it a fact for EVERY car out there. You need to get that little thought in your head.

That's ironic isn't it? Did I say every car out there? People come on this forum and BS they blew half throttle and many people including yourself jump on the bandwagon and believe everything they posted and buy into some theory that the motor has a design flaw.

Do some fucking REAL research for god sakes. Even if your paper isn't done you should still have SOME references to back up your claims even if they haven't been marked in the paper itself.

I did, it's all in my car- that's why I know my ain't going to blow from fail like many of these cars this. It sucks, honestly bro, it really does but it is what it is. I'll sit back on the sidelines and watch as more fail rolls right in.

I'll get back to my car now, take if for a spin just to remind myself of what's actually a success and not a total fail- go back into lala land, looking & digging up theories and believing people over the internet when they claim they blew half throttle or some BS like that.

Good day

[smakdown61]

Originally Posted by trickytwelveinch Good for you; keep it up! I honestly don't care what you've been doing since the 80's old timer. You thought senior English and are a shop teacher? Good credentials. I graduated with honors, got a bachelors in audio/electrical engineering and on my to getting an ASE certification. So, fucking what? Wake up- this is the internet forums- half the posts on here are bullshit to begin with with people thinking after installing a fucking CAI they're fucking engine experts. That's ironic isn't it? Did I say every car out there? People come on this forum and BS they blew half throttle and many people including yourself jump on the bandwagon and believe everything they posted and buy into some theory that the motor has a design flaw. I did, it's all in my car- that's why I know my ain't going to blow from fail like many of these cars this. It sucks, honestly bro, it really does but it is what it is. I'll sit back on the sidelines and watch as more fail rolls right in. I'll get back to my car now, take if for a spin just to remind myself of what's actually a success and not a total fail- go back into lala land, looking & digging up theories and believing people over the internet when they claim they blew half throttle or some BS like that. Good day

Oh sweet, we have an audio/electrical engineer telling us how a combustion engine works. Thank you interwebz. Your "its all in my car" answer to research is one of the most retarded answers I've ever heard. What school did you get your degree from, seriously? I'm still waiting on actual evidence to prove your theory. Where is the tear down of your motor? Hell, I'd even take you using other peoples tear down pics to use if you want. Then we will have a real discussion. Show us E-V-I-D-E-N-S-E. If its all in your car then fucking tear it down.

Why should anyone believe your theory over the other ones you call BS?

[psychophyr]

Originally Posted by trickytwelveinch ...bullshit, bullshit, bullshit .... Good day

Good riddance

[Erich]

So paper is seizing the pistons and blowing the motor?

[darth vader]

Originally Posted by trickytwelveinch Good for you; keep it up! I honestly don't care what you've been doing since the 80's old timer. You thought senior English and are a shop teacher? Good credentials. I graduated with honors, got a bachelors in audio/electrical engineering and on my to getting an ASE certification. So, fucking what? Wake up- this is the internet forums- half the posts on here are bullshit to begin with with people thinking after installing a fucking CAI they're fucking engine experts.

You could use some help from my senior English class. They could easily figure out what the problem with your paper is; just like this dumb old shop teacher/shadetree did. Certs aren't the issue, your bullshitting here and there and providing nothing significant to support yourself is the issue. That is all.

[aaronc7]

that was painful to read

[trickytwelveinch]

Originally Posted by smakdown61 Oh sweet, we have an audio/electrical engineer telling us how a combustion engine works. Thank you interwebz. Your "its all in my car" answer to research is one of the most retarded answers I've ever heard. What school did you get your degree from, seriously? I'm still waiting on actual evidence to prove your theory. Where is the tear down of your motor? Hell, I'd even take you using other peoples tear down pics to use if you want. Then we will have a real discussion. Show us E-V-I-D-E-N-S-E. If its all in your car then fucking tear it down. Why should anyone believe your theory over the other ones you call BS?

You really must have a hard time with comprehension. I stated earlier that bottom line is that friction inside the cylinder walls causes the piston to seize. The purpose of my fucking paper was to explain basic principles and what contributes to the end result. However, it seems you already know so good for you.

Bro, fucking chill, just a tid bit so the adrenaline rush calms down before you get all wrapped up in your internet forum world and start posting away. It seems like you fucking live and breath this forum- perhaps you even lose sleep over it? Pathetic go outside, ride your tricycle, and make some friends in person and not on the web and pretend you're cool. Hmm, oK?

I already posted that I don't care if someone believes me over somebody else. I really don't care if they call BS or not. My intentions weren't to convince anyone - just to amplify the total amount of fail on this forum because during all those blow engine threads there was so much ignorance and (theories being passed on as facts) posted it was beyond mind blowing.

Somebody posted something stupid like "so, is the OCC going to keep my motor from blowing up" LOL are you fucking kidding me?

How the hell is a OCC going to save your motor from blowing? Retarded to even assume so.

You act like a fucking retard MR. Know it all, so all you're going to get is nothing but fucking retarded answers.

Why on earth would I want to prove something to you? Fuck discussing this shit any further with you. Why would I want to tear down my motor to prove something to you? I could give a rats ass.

I'm done talking to you and your bullshit say what you want I honestly don't give a shit- plus, it's not like any of this shit phases me.

Originally Posted by darth vader You could use some help from my senior English class. They could easily figure out what the problem with your paper is; just like this dumb old shop teacher/shadetree did. Certs aren't the issue, your bullshitting here and there and providing nothing significant to support yourself is the issue. That is all.

Old timer, listen, the paper was just thrown together and it wasn't even nowhere near finished. God damn, you're fucking thick headed. The only reason I posted is because of what went down in the other thread.

You honestly think I give a shit?- there's to many people on here proclaiming themselves as some automotive/engine experts yet, they fail to install simple bolts on. Like I said old timer, you probably missed your youth in back in the day, and, are now trying to re-live those days making internet buddies on this wonderful forum. Sigh.

Few fuck heads disagree with me or insult me and you think that somehow affects me? The same fuck heads that can't even get their car to run like properly? I don't care if you think I'm bullshitting, I know I'm not and you're open to think what you want.

Some of you meat heads take this internet forum shit too fucking seriously.

I wouldn't be surprised if this type of crowd (few years from now) runs the MS3 down into the ground and gives it a bad name just like the riced out wanna be boy racer tools did with the Honda because, so far, the way things are going this car is heading in the same direction.

Yup, time to move on to a more serious platform.

[smakdown61]

Originally Posted by trickytwelveinch You really must have a hard time with comprehension. I stated earlier that bottom line is that friction inside the cylinder walls causes the piston to seize. The purpose of my fucking paper was to explain basic principles and what contributes to the end result. However, it seems you already know so good for you. Bro, fucking chill, just a tid bit so the adrenaline rush calms down before you get all wrapped up in your internet forum world and start posting away. It seems like you fucking live and breath this forum- perhaps you even lose sleep over it? Pathetic go outside, ride your tricycle, and make some friends in person and not on the web and pretend you're cool. Hmm, oK? I already posted that I don't care if someone believes me over somebody else. I really don't care if they call BS or not. My intentions weren't to convince anyone - just to amplify the total amount of fail on this forum because during all those blow engine threads there was so much ignorance and (theories being passed on as facts) posted it was beyond mind blowing. Somebody posted something stupid like "so, is the OCC going to keep my motor from blowing up" LOL are you fucking kidding me? How the hell is a OCC going to save your motor from blowing? Retarded to even assume so. You act like a fucking retard MR. Know it all, so all you're going to get is nothing but fucking retarded answers. Why on earth would I want to prove something to you? Fuck discussing this shit any further with you. Why would I want to tear down my motor to prove something to you? I could give a rats ass. I'm done talking to you and your bullshit say what you want I honestly don't give a shit- plus, it's not like any of this shit phases me.

Ok. You say its friction inside the walls. Show us some proof. Steal some other tear down pics and show us. THEN you'll have something worthy of a theory. Otherwise, you are posting up the same shit BS type of theory that everyone else posts. You say you are posting to disprove the other BS but whats to say yours isn't BS as well?!?!? You haven't provided anything to back yourself up or make anyone believe otherwise. Why do you think there is such negative feedback here. I don't give a fuck if you are right or wrong, but if you are going to spit out more BS at least make it convincing. So far you couldn't convince a 5 year old with that vomit you call a paper.

Your stupidity amplifies every time you try to compare someone's engine knowledge with their ability to install parts. What in the all mighty fuck does installing bolt-ons have to do with their knowledge about how an internal combustion engine works? I'd love to see you in a debate against several PhD professors I know. 90% drive honda accord's and probably couldn't do anything more than change their own oil but would cock slap you in the face in a debate about the internal combustion engine. Go read a fucking real SAE article on the ICE. You might be surprised when you don't find anything about how to install and intake or remove an engine. Nothing against car tech's but a monkey could do their job with decent training. It doesn't take a whole lotta smarts to follow a service manual that is already written. For god sakes the damn thing tells you how to diagnose ANY problem. You think when you take their car in they sit around actually thinking?

Guys like Lex at least put it a decent effort to do an analysis based on ACTUAL evidence they see and are willing to do tear downs to help the community. It doesn't even matter if hes right, but at least hes going about it the RIGHT way. The right way doesn't consist of writing the fecal matter you call a paper and claiming to be the god of DISI failures. I think its a disservice to even let you post here anymore.

[the_caruch]

I think you should finish your paper. I definitely want to read more.

[DaleNixon]

[NewMexican]

Thanks everybody for entertaining me at work........ paper is poorly and non scientifically written, but then thats good reason to go easy on it. It is being peer reviewed.........

[FreeFlyFreak]

Unsubscribe.

[BoostIsBetter]

my brain fried after reading this.

[Lex]

I don't think the lack of lubrication on the bore is causing pistons to seize. If this was the case we'd see scuffed up sideskirts and bores LONG before bent rods become an issue.

The reason pistons are seizing is because once the connecting rod has been plastically deformed, the geometry of the rotating assembly has changed. The piston is no longer lined up with the bore nor is it traveling in a direct linear path up and down the bore. It usually has a side to side or rotating component to its motion.

This misaligns the ring pack and oil burning becomes severe. At this point lubrication of the cylinder wall also deteriorates because the oil control rings no longer make appropriate contact.

Combustion pressures are no longer directly supported by the load axis of the connecting rod and the injector spray pattern that is impinged on the crown of the piston is no longer geometrically aligned with the spark plug location and cylinder geometry in general. This leads to poorer combustion.

In other words, once a rod is deformed, the cylinder no longer functions as designed in every respect

During a shift, the rotating assembly is pushed towards the passenger side by the amount allowed by the thrust clearance on the particular motor.

The side of the crank counterweight makes contact with the side of the failing rod big end. The bottom of the piston makes contact with the side of the failing rod small end.

The strained assembly undergoes a momentum change as RPM is quickly changed during the shift and as combustion is momentarily stopped (as the accelerator pedal is released) and resumed thereafter.

At lower RPM where we see the failure, the piston and rod also have less overall momentum to carry them through any "sticky" points in the bore as the piston forcefully walks its way up the bore off center.

This is the recipe for the perfect storm. Since the piston is off-center in the bore, the compression rings are pushed out of the ring lands on the side of the piston that is furthest from the cylinder wall. This is where they snag. Once they snag, the piston is further deformed and the already distorted rod will collapse under the force of the crank continuing its motion and the piston being seized. The rest is history.

This chain of events links all aspects of the failures we have seen in a logical manner and agrees with the tell-tale signs/marks seen on the failed parts I have examined.

- The piston seizing is not a direct failure mode, but rather it is the end result of a misaligned rotating assembly.
- The connecting rods become deformed before a piston seizes.
- There are many reasons for the rods becoming deformed - from hydrolock, to excessive cylinder pressure, to excessive engine speed, to uncontrolled combustion (detonation), to off-axis loads due to tolerance stack-up.

This is how your paper should have read.

[mr_mazda329]

Give him time to finish his paper instead having to debate the purpose of this thread with all the e-thug, know-it-all, bench-racers. I want to read the conclusion


Lex..good explanation there.

[smakdown61]

Originally Posted by mr_mazda329 Give him time to finish his paper instead having to debate the purpose of this thread with all the e-thug, know-it-all, bench-racers. I want to read the conclusion

It took him 4 weeks to write the shitty draft he posted, he deserves to get trashed. Its amazing Lex could write something 100x better in probably 10 minutes that actually shows rational thought and analysis based on tear down pics we've seen. Is he 100% right? We don't know, but its way more convincing than the material in that paper was...I don't need to see his conclusion to see where hes going.

Originally Posted by smakdown61 It took him 4 weeks to write the shitty draft he posted, he deserves to get trashed. Its amazing Lex could write something 100x better in probably 10 minutes that actually shows rational thought and analysis based on tear down pics we've seen. Is he 100% right? We don't know, but its way more convincing than the material in that paper was...I don't need to see his conclusion to see where hes going.

I'd like to see twelve actually provide evidence to disprove Lex's theory, instead of just claiming its BS and hes right b/c he wrote up a shitty draft.

[superskaterxes]

lol did u just quote yourself in the same post?


btw lex nice pwn

[darth vader]

No shit "friction in the walls" can cause a piston to seize, anybody who's ever built a simple two-stroke race bike knows all about this.

The question remains: WHY IS THIS SUPPOSED EXCESSIVE FRICTION HAPPENING....if it is happening at all. Every instance of this (from various causes) I've ever seen had massive scuffing of the skirts and massive heat spots in the bores + unusually high oil consumption. I don't know if that's being seen here but, I haven't torn down one of these engines and hope I never have to.

This motor is dangerously designed in some basic ways, in my view but, that is what makes it so damn cool. It's got a little pinner turbo producing gargantuan engine loads on a 4 cyl package at 2000 rpm. This is asking for it, no question. The piper has to be paid, you can't get V8 torque out of a 2.3 litre 4-banger without some potentially disastrous compromises.

Personally, I don't juice the car under 3K, I keep synthetic oil in it and change it every 3500 miles, I don't smack it after a long highway cruise and I'm easy on it when it's cold. I think that's about all I can do to keep the thing alive.

Oh, and, for somebody who claims to be so unaffected by what others say, your constant slipping in of insulting name-calling and swearing suggests otherwise.

[trickytwelveinch]

Originally Posted by Lex I don't think the lack of lubrication on the bore is causing pistons to seize. If this was the case we'd see scuffed up sideskirts and bores LONG before bent rods become an issue. The reason pistons are seizing is because once the connecting rod has been plastically deformed, the geometry of the rotating assembly has changed. The piston is no longer lined up with the bore nor is it traveling in a direct linear path up and down the bore. It usually has a side to side or rotating component to its motion. This misaligns the ring pack and oil burning becomes severe. At this point lubrication of the cylinder wall also deteriorates because the oil control rings no longer make appropriate contact. Combustion pressures are no longer directly supported by the load axis of the connecting rod and the injector spray pattern that is impinged on the crown of the piston is no longer geometrically aligned with the spark plug location and cylinder geometry in general. This leads to poorer combustion. In other words, once a rod is deformed, the cylinder no longer functions as designed in every respect During a shift, the rotating assembly is pushed towards the passenger side by the amount allowed by the thrust clearance on the particular motor. The side of the crank counterweight makes contact with the side of the failing rod big end. The bottom of the piston makes contact with the side of the failing rod small end. The strained assembly undergoes a momentum change as RPM is quickly changed during the shift and as combustion is momentarily stopped (as the accelerator pedal is released) and resumed thereafter. At lower RPM where we see the failure, the piston and rod also have less overall momentum to carry them through any "sticky" points in the bore as the piston forcefully walks its way up the bore off center. This is the recipe for the perfect storm. Since the piston is off-center in the bore, the compression rings are pushed out of the ring lands on the side of the piston that is furthest from the cylinder wall. This is where they snag. Once they snag, the piston is further deformed and the already distorted rod will collapse under the force of the crank continuing its motion and the piston being seized. The rest is history. This chain of events links all aspects of the failures we have seen in a logical manner and agrees with the tell-tale signs/marks seen on the failed parts I have examined. - The piston seizing is not a direct failure mode, but rather it is the end result of a misaligned rotating assembly. - The connecting rods become deformed before a piston seizes. - There are many reasons for the rods becoming deformed - from hydrolock, to excessive cylinder pressure, to excessive engine speed, to uncontrolled combustion (detonation), to off-axis loads due to tolerance stack-up. This is how your paper should have read.

Very well stated. Anything I write or was going to write would be a mere reinforcement of what you have stated. However, I wanted to take on a different approach. There's guys on here that are well informed and experienced and then there's others that are new. You honestly think, the kid, who is installing a CAI for the first is going to understand anything of what you wrote? No. I wanted to to approach this on a more basic level of explanation on the beginning and work it up. Obviously, the guys, who are well experienced and informed will scoff at what I wrote because it's nothing new to them but it's informative to the beginners.

[darth vader]

Didn't Mazda formerly have problems with crank walk in the Gen 1 Miatas causing catastrophic engine failure?

[Lex]

Originally Posted by darth vader Didn't Mazda formerly have problems with crank walk in the Gen 1 Miatas causing catastrophic engine failure?

I believe some 99 Miatas had crank walk issues. The 1st gens (early 1.6) would shear the woodruff key at the crank pulley since the crank nose was too short and pulley bolt was undersized.

[darth vader]

That's it...given all the different cars I've owned and worked on, it's hard for this "old timer" to keep all the failure modes straight

[chrisyng]

Originally Posted by trickytwelveinch You honestly think, the kid, who is installing a CAI for the first is going to understand anything of what you wrote? No. I wanted to to approach this on a more basic level of explanation on the beginning and work it up. Obviously, the guys, who are well experienced and informed will scoff at what I wrote because it's nothing new to them but it's informative to the beginners.

Uhhh.. wern't you the guy who couldn't get your car running after installing angeleyes?

After reading some of your past posts.. it would seem to me you are a a college kid with too large of an ego.. please, it is evident in reading your past posts that you have a trivial knowledge of automotives and only hope to impress those on the forum who know less than you.. the rest of the people on the forum who have years of experience with diffrent platforms, are all reading your long winded messages and say to themselves "WTF???" ..