Here's the paper- siezed pistons; blown MZR engines

[kgb]

Originally Posted by mr_mazda329 Give him time to finish his paper instead having to debate the purpose of this thread with all the e-thug, know-it-all, bench-racers. I want to read the conclusion Lex..good explanation there.

We don't mind giving him time...alot of us want to read his paper...
We just don't understand why he gets so offensive, then defensive towards Lex ... it's like he is taking it personally....instead of having a gentlemen's argument.

This is important to alot of us, if it isn't to him, we just ask that he repect how we feel and not to shit on this.

I know it sounds a little touch/feely but ....well shit, it is what it is.... Now for some and then some It's Halloween bitches!!!!

[8.5MS3]

Originally Posted by trickytwelveinch Good for you; keep it up! I honestly don't care what you've been doing since the 80's old timer. You thought senior English and are a shop teacher? Good credentials. I graduated with honors, got a bachelors in audio/electrical engineering and on my to getting an ASE certification. So, fucking what? Wake up- this is the internet forums- half the posts on here are bullshit to begin with with people thinking after installing a fucking CAI they're fucking engine experts.

Big fuckin deal I have a masters in Mechanical Engineering, hold a professional engineering liscense and am a LEED AP.I work for an engineering design firm. that doesnt make me an automotive specialist. I'd take experience over reading theorys any day.

but as you said "Wake up- this is the internet forums- half the posts on here are bullshit to begin with with people thinking after installing a fucking CAI they're fucking engine experts." why dont you do the same thing and stop acting like a child yelling at everyone that doesnt agree with you. and your field of study has absolutely ZERO relation to engine design/operation etc, so based on your answer to the post quoted, you to are not an "engine expert". The beginning of the paper you posted doesnt inspire confidence into your technical knowledge. As an "engineer" i would expect technical writing to be second nature, but i guess I was wrong. do me a favor and spare the predictable immature rebuttle. I look forward to reading the paper once complete, but so far i will say I am honestly unimpressed. BTW what is the Otto Cycle???

Its apparent that you havent entered the real working world yet and you are, as others have said a college student or recent graduate. You will learn in time that experience is 100 times more valuable than reading stuff in textbooks. I still have yet to see anything "groundbreaking"


Oh and lex, i see your viewing as I post this. I will have access to 4 blown motor pistons, possibly 8 in a few weeks. 2 local ms3 guys lost compression in their motors, both in cylinder 3. Weird thing is these guys took real good care of their cars and did things the right way. PM me if you want em. I just want to do some testing on one of the pistons myself.

[Lex]

^PM Sent

[djuosnteisn]

Um, wow. Maybe the real paper was dressed up like a shitty paper for Halloween???




I guess I'd at least like to thank you for actually posting your paper, because now i can fully write off pretty much anything you say, and have no doubt in my mind that I'm possibly missing out on some real information.


Happy Halloween! And now back to full party mod, LOL!

[reddeerspeed3]

trickytwelveinch, since you are apparently arrogant enough to pull numbers out of your ass and call it math:
°C = 5/9 x (°F-32)
°F = 9/5 x °C+32
0°C = 32°F ≠ 14°C.
you may now board the failboat.

and Lex's post murdered your sorry excuse for a paper. thank you for wasting my time

[06Speed6]

I think he had a well written paper, ide give it an "A" for sure.

You should go post it on 247, there are lotsa noobs there.

[lidokrantz]

i STOPPED reading here for now....THESE 2 QUOTES PRETTY MUCH WRAPPED IT UP...GOOD INFO AND WORDS OF WISDOM.....and i too follow the same driving habits as Mr Vader and my car runs perfect!!!!
A BIG THANKY YOU TO LEX AND VADER!!!!

Originally Posted by Lex I don't think the lack of lubrication on the bore is causing pistons to seize. If this was the case we'd see scuffed up sideskirts and bores LONG before bent rods become an issue. The reason pistons are seizing is because once the connecting rod has been plastically deformed, the geometry of the rotating assembly has changed. The piston is no longer lined up with the bore nor is it traveling in a direct linear path up and down the bore. It usually has a side to side or rotating component to its motion. This misaligns the ring pack and oil burning becomes severe. At this point lubrication of the cylinder wall also deteriorates because the oil control rings no longer make appropriate contact. Combustion pressures are no longer directly supported by the load axis of the connecting rod and the injector spray pattern that is impinged on the crown of the piston is no longer geometrically aligned with the spark plug location and cylinder geometry in general. This leads to poorer combustion. In other words, once a rod is deformed, the cylinder no longer functions as designed in every respect During a shift, the rotating assembly is pushed towards the passenger side by the amount allowed by the thrust clearance on the particular motor. The side of the crank counterweight makes contact with the side of the failing rod big end. The bottom of the piston makes contact with the side of the failing rod small end. The strained assembly undergoes a momentum change as RPM is quickly changed during the shift and as combustion is momentarily stopped (as the accelerator pedal is released) and resumed thereafter. At lower RPM where we see the failure, the piston and rod also have less overall momentum to carry them through any "sticky" points in the bore as the piston forcefully walks its way up the bore off center. This is the recipe for the perfect storm. Since the piston is off-center in the bore, the compression rings are pushed out of the ring lands on the side of the piston that is furthest from the cylinder wall. This is where they snag. Once they snag, the piston is further deformed and the already distorted rod will collapse under the force of the crank continuing its motion and the piston being seized. The rest is history. This chain of events links all aspects of the failures we have seen in a logical manner and agrees with the tell-tale signs/marks seen on the failed parts I have examined. - The piston seizing is not a direct failure mode, but rather it is the end result of a misaligned rotating assembly. - The connecting rods become deformed before a piston seizes. - There are many reasons for the rods becoming deformed - from hydrolock, to excessive cylinder pressure, to excessive engine speed, to uncontrolled combustion (detonation), to off-axis loads due to tolerance stack-up. This is how your paper should have read.

Originally Posted by darth vader No shit "friction in the walls" can cause a piston to seize, anybody who's ever built a simple two-stroke race bike knows all about this. The question remains: WHY IS THIS SUPPOSED EXCESSIVE FRICTION HAPPENING....if it is happening at all. Every instance of this (from various causes) I've ever seen had massive scuffing of the skirts and massive heat spots in the bores + unusually high oil consumption. I don't know if that's being seen here but, I haven't torn down one of these engines and hope I never have to. This motor is dangerously designed in some basic ways, in my view but, that is what makes it so damn cool. It's got a little pinner turbo producing gargantuan engine loads on a 4 cyl package at 2000 rpm. This is asking for it, no question. The piper has to be paid, you can't get V8 torque out of a 2.3 litre 4-banger without some potentially disastrous compromises. Personally, I don't juice the car under 3K, I keep synthetic oil in it and change it every 3500 miles, I don't smack it after a long highway cruise and I'm easy on it when it's cold. I think that's about all I can do to keep the thing alive. Oh, and, for somebody who claims to be so unaffected by what others say, your constant slipping in of insulting name-calling and swearing suggests otherwise.

[Target:STi]

[Boother]

Originally Posted by trickytwelveinch 1) Operating temp of oil is 180+..... 180 is the bare minimal... it takes, at idle, almost 30 minutes to warm up synthetic oil at idle alone in 40F-50F give or take. 30 minutes, however, it only takes (using my car as an example) 15 min or so in the same temperature to warm up the engine coolant to its operating temperature of at least 187 F. While the needle at the dash shows that the cars temp reached it's operating temps the synthetic oil temp is only at around 120-135 F- depending on the outside temps. How many people that I know personally don't warm their car up or warm their ECT up to spec and go beat the shit out of it? Might as well start the car and start revving the hell out of it or go beat on it.

Have you actually logged oil temps in the MS3 before you made this statement? Do you have an oil temp gauge?

[fjames]

I've followed that "rule" for years - that is that oil temps take longer to stabilize than water. No idea the hows and whys, it's just a good guideline to keep in mind.

[Thestaplegunkid]

Originally Posted by trickytwelveinch Wow, I didn't realize there's so many self-proclaimed experts. Did you ever read the part when I said it's not even done and/or the part when I said what still needs to be added to this article? And yes, I've seen dynos kill WRX with heavy bolts ons, bigger turbos and what not. Buddy, listen, I am not here to prove anything- especially to people like you. Like I stated many times earlier all I care about is the fact that my car runs great, if you blow your engine or anyone else for that matter- I don't care. You belong in threads like Scott Nasty posted about how to fail installing headers. Go grab some bears and go work on installing some silly bolt ons while telling yourself you know what you are doing. Yeah, and I really bet you that you blew your motor going half throttle. It's OK. Not all of us have the skills when building engines or installing simple mods. Next time go take it to a professional and maybe you won't screw up installing an intake or doing something else that would otherwise be considered "severely retarded" and come on here BS you blew half-throttle.

You never fail to disappoint Tricky. I love how since you simply don't understand how blowing at part throttle is possible, you just discount people's experiences as "BS" or lies.

You truly come across as an unenlightened individual.

[fhaze]

I recall driving an older BMW once...it had portions of the Tach illuminated. The warmer the car got, the more of the Tach that got exposed. By the time the engine OIL was finally up to temp, the Tach was illuminated to redline.

It took a lot longer than I expected to allow redline. I have kept this in mind since that day,and always treat my vehicles this way.

[jahman]

Originally Posted by fhaze I recall driving an older BMW once...it had portions of the Tach illuminated. The warmer the car got, the more of the Tach that got exposed. By the time the engine OIL was finally up to temp, the Tach was illuminated to redline. It took a lot longer than I expected to allow redline. I have kept this in mind since that day,and always treat my vehicles this way.

That sounds like a great feature. Every car should have it. But then again they'd rather you run your shit to the junkyard so youll have to buy another.

[djuosnteisn]

Originally Posted by fhaze I recall driving an older BMW once...it had portions of the Tach illuminated. The warmer the car got, the more of the Tach that got exposed. By the time the engine OIL was finally up to temp, the Tach was illuminated to redline. It took a lot longer than I expected to allow redline. I have kept this in mind since that day,and always treat my vehicles this way.

I think the bmw 335 won't even go "full throttle" even if floored, until the oil is up to temp. Just hear-say from my boss, but i believe it.

[Target:STi]

Originally Posted by Thestaplegunkid You never fail to disappoint Tricky. I love how since you simply don't understand how blowing at part throttle is possible, you just discount people's experiences as "BS" or lies. You truly come across as an unenlightened individual.

+1

this is ridiculous. youre discounting the majority of engine failures to what you think is just BS. sure, its a big scam. most of the people with blown engines got together and said "lets all say we blew up at part throttle just to throw everyone else off". please.

[Boother]

Originally Posted by fjames I've followed that "rule" for years - that is that oil temps take longer to stabilize than water. No idea the hows and whys, it's just a good guideline to keep in mind.

I understand this, but the MS3 circulates coolant through the top of the oil filter housing in order to control oil temps. This not only keeps the oil temps from getting too high, it also has the effect of heating the oil during a cold start. The MS3 will not take nearly as long for the oil to reach operating temp as most other cars that either have no oil cooler, or an external oil cooler.

[trickytwelveinch]

Originally Posted by Boother Have you actually logged oil temps in the MS3 before you made this statement? Do you have an oil temp gauge?

Yeah, I did and I do.

[smakdown61]

Originally Posted by trickytwelveinch Yeah, I did and I do.

Using what?

[fhaze]

Can someone with an Oil temp gauge please tell us the delta between 187 degrees ECT and max oil temp please? (ie how long after max ect to max oil temp)

Please list ambient temp as well. Thx.

[darth vader]

There's a reason alot of Eurpopean cars have an oil temp gauge instead of oil pressure, as is more common here:

You floor the car on the Autobahn for 3 hours and see what happens to oil temp. You will freak out how hot it gets. I've seen over 150 degrees C, often. Here in NA, with our slow speed limits, all you need to have is oil circulating to be fine. Our NA oils smoke at FAR lower temps than those designed for Europe, for this reason.

There's a reason also, why multi-weight oil was invented, 40+ years ago: It allows good flow and lubricity at low temps but retains its protective capacity at higher temps, something a straight weight oil can't do. Being a so-called "old timer", when I started doing this shit, straight weights were all we had for high performance use. We'd run 30 in the winter, 40 or 50 in the summer.

Oil comes up to temp slower than water for one major reason: viscosity. A thicker/denser fluid will take longer to heat than a lighter one. This is an important principle behind anti-freeze and part of why it raises boiling point in the engine when installed.

What makes oil hot is the incredible pressures being exerted on it, primarily at the big end bearings in the rods, by combustion loads and, the incredible shearing forces from high revolutions.

I do not discount the reports of part throttle failures. I have seen this ALOT, in many engines when raced at the track. The car makes the pass, the damage is done, and it blows with closed throttle/high vacuum in shutdown or on the return road under light load. If anything, a PT failure is an indication of how strong the engine is, rather than weak. Likely, damage is done in a bunch of high-stress situations before this and it finally gives up the ghost. So rather than blaming PT, we need to look at the engine's treatment before the catastrophic event. Only a teardown and examination can reveal this and unfortunately, like an airplane crash, vital evidence can be hidden by the destruction.

Here's something to consider re. bolt-ons: Without a DashHawk or other monitoring system, you have no idea what's going on inside your engine when you install this stuff. The HP fuel pump in this car is dogshit for mods. It can barely support a stuffed-up stocker. I wonder how many, including myself, assumed the pump would handle the fuel side of a few light mods, only to discover upon purchase of a DH, that it can't. How many burned up engines were stressed by that situation and let go at PT?

[Lex]

^ This is exactly what I am seeing. All the motors that let go have tweaked or bent rods - most have them in more than the 1 cylinder that blew. The bent rods happen during high load conditions and the motor lets go at part throttle some time later.

A lot of cars that have blown have had poor fuel pump performance in the past where pressures have dropped.

If I were to give one piece of advice - change the fuel pump BEFORE doing any flow modifications. By the time you realize the pump isn't keeping up, it can be too late.

Another piece of advice - keep your A/F ratios rich. Pig rich for high boost. I know most people shoot for 12s. That's an average A/F from all cylinders. As you know there's a discrepancy in flow (both air and fuel) from cylinder to cylinder. With our high compression motor, I would honestly go well below 12 as boost is turned up on the stock turbo because I don't think there's much room for error if detonation occurs.

[802MS3]

After I did my FP (which was after the downpipe install), the car just seemed to enjoy life that much more...

[SpeedSixxx]

everytime you open your mouth i get a chubby.

that sounds wrong..but true.

you speak the truth..it's like you're god!

[darth vader]

I only hope that, now that I've come to the conclusion about what I think the issue starts with, the fubar hpfp, I haven't already signed my motor's death warrant from the couple rings off the limiter and some high rpm action at the track.

[djuosnteisn]

My hpfp just failed, so we need to start saying that something else causes these failures. I just don't like where all this is going, lol.

Personally, i blame.. the seats.

[Deadman]

ROFL @ the seats.

either that or the wipers

[darth vader]

No...I take it back, it's a faulty radio...stops me from hearing the sounds of my engine's imminent demise, lol

[fhaze]

[starscream]

LOL! I really want to read the rest of that papers. For someone that was hating on Lex, and everyone else for their theories (which BTW had more evidence then what you provided) its absolutely hillarious what youve come up with. You also kept saying to wait for your big post/thread/paper. And this is what youve got?!

Yeah totally expect to be flamed, but I hate to say it, you brought it on that way. NEVER bring a knife to a gunfight.

[BoostIsBetter]

Originally Posted by darth vader Oil comes up to temp slower than water for one major reason: viscosity. A thicker/denser fluid will take longer to heat than a lighter one. This is an important principle behind anti-freeze and part of why it raises boiling point in the engine when installed.

False. Antifreeze is based on solubility of solutes in a solvent to disturb the crystal lattice structure of water. Per mole of solute decreases water's freezing point by 1.86C. Hence 1 mole salt is better than 1 mole of some rock, because the equivalence of 1 mole of salt (NaCl) is 2 equivalents hence decreasing temperature by 3.72C.

As for of oil gaining temperature slower than water is due to specific heat capacity and not density. It is a common mistake made by people because in general, most everyday used solutions have a higher specific heat and density correlation, but in reality this is not true since there are many chemical solutions which have higher specific heat capacities and lower densities than a counter-part solution.

[NRSpeed]

What a waste.

Tricky are you religious?

Ok, so that "paper" was a train wreck. As other have said it lacks citation of facts (or even facts really, other then standard car care).

You seem to be basing your WHOLE argument on the fact that YOUR car is running fine. Ummm, ok. I guess your argument is concrete unless you blow your engine, which may never happen. Kinda silly.

Originally Posted by trickytwelveinch got a bachelors in audio/electrical engineering and on my to getting an ASE certification.

I guess the emphasis on your overpriced tech school degree was more on the audio and less on the electrical? ASE certification is all about car service tech.

You my boy are far from an electrical engineer. Sorry.

[darth vader]

Originally Posted by BoostIsBetter False. Antifreeze is based on solubility of solutes in a solvent to disturb the crystal lattice structure of water. Per mole of solute decreases water's freezing point by 1.86C. Hence 1 mole salt is better than 1 mole of some rock, because the equivalence of 1 mole of salt (NaCl) is 2 equivalents hence decreasing temperature by 3.72C. As for of oil gaining temperature slower than water is due to specific heat capacity and not density. It is a common mistake made by people because in general, most everyday used solutions have a higher specific heat and density correlation, but in reality this is not true since there are many chemical solutions which have higher specific heat capacities and lower densities than a counter-part solution.

Now, I really don't want to fight but, why not have a discussion that might be of value, istead of the stupid nature of this thread so far.

I shouldn't find it necessary to point out you're talking about why it doesn't freeze, not why its boiling point is raised. That's caused by the system being pressurised, for the most part and the higher heat sinking capabilities of the coolant/water mix, over plain water.

Yes, like ATF, for example. Far higher heat-handling/smoke point than motor oil but far lower density than motor oil. However, there's science book and then there's the reality of this situation and, inside the engine, the oil heats slower under engine warmup. It's harder to heat it because it's more dense than coolant/water and it has designed-in heat rejection properties, over the water/antifreeze that's purposely placed in coolant passages near the combustion chamber and is designed to HOLD heat and carry it to the radiator for disposal.

Really, to keep it simple for retards like me, go to the kitchen and try to boil cooked tapioca, then water, see which boils first/more easily. They have different properties, yes, but, the different densities are making that kitchen nightmare a reality.

[BoostIsBetter]

I was just giving you a hard time dude. haha.

no biggie. boiling point and freezing depression are also correlated, but enough of that, my chem background has gotta go, hah. is that your bike in the avatar?

and yes, this thread has gone to shits. actually it started pretty bad too. haha

[darth vader]

Cool. Since I don't give a shit about thread-jacking this garbage thread, yeah, that's my 07 GSXR 1000, somewhere is the desert of eastern Wa state in 2008. I love touring that bike; it's fookin brilliant.

What you can't see in the avatar is the fact I'd just completed 100 miles of riding at over 100 mph, in 105* heat. The stock rear tire has its cords showing and I've still got 500 miles to go to get home.

[NRSpeed]

I would still like Tricky to chime in on his degree. He obviously holds it in high regard.

What school(s) did you attend to get your degree(s)?

[starscream]

Just bumping this only because I would really like a followup from tricky to just let us know when the rest of his paper is done LOL

[NRSpeed]

Mazdaspeed Forums - View Profile: trickytwelveinch

Last Activity: Yesterday 10:32 PM


My guess is he isnt going to come back to this thread. Its unfortunate, I would like to see Tricky's response to my question.

[ms3077]

Wow, I just read all this crap and all I've come up with is that Lex really knows his shit.

[ATAZ]

Im no forced induction wizard, but i have built a few VR6 engines and used to rebuild my YZ250F (motocross) engine every few races. Ive seen tones of strange random occurrences from wrist pin walking, pistons cracking, rob end warping, main bearing failures from heat, lack of lubrication, coolant pump failures, oil delivery blockage all causing the same outcome...catastrophic engine failure. Not so random at all.

As for the MZR it all seems very random.

IMHO I truly believe there isnt a major problem with the engine its self but rather how its driven based on the components. Sure the rods may be a bit weak...but only weak because of the amount of torque the k04 produces at such low rpm. Maybe an engineering oversite but i doubt it.

Over time pushing the car through the lower rpm under full load WILL cause damage. Sooner or later it catches up with you. Causing small variances and changing tolerances between components to the point that when under load gives enough room or impact to break. Its tough to break a pain of glass flat on the ground with pressure....give some space between the glass and the ground and it breaks very easily.

anyway, just my .02

[BudUMfan]

8.5 ms3 feels like I do. I'm an engineer for the natural gas side of our company. I know gas, don't know shit about cars. That is why I'm on here, to learn. But all my expertise is from experience, not books. There are some smart guys on here, but seems some people do not take advantage of that. Too bad.