Highest redline?

[Mizzle]

I've been looking over our available modifications and I'm curious - assuming a fully balanced built bottom-end and built top end with a fuel delivery system to match, what do you think the highest safe RPM level would be able to be achieved?

[b00b00]

Dont know much about these cars, but around 6k rpms the car falls on its face. Not sure if its normal.

[SSinstaller]

Direct injection is just as big of a limitation as the head and bottom end.... Without serious changes i don't think these motors will ever rev much past 7K...

[06Speed6]

Stock DI injectors are good to 8000rpm.

You will never get it that high though because the rod length is too short for the stroke. Its a true catch 22 in that you need very light parts to hit 8000rpm with our engine design, but our engine is a torque monster at low rpm and it will blow those light weight parts.

my rev limiter is 7000 rpm and i make power till 7000 rpm but i have a big turbo

[SpeedSixxx]

Originally Posted by b00b00 Dont know much about these cars, but around 6k rpms the car falls on its face. Not sure if its normal.

and you don't even know why they fall on their face past 6k....



just a BT car will have power till 7k...

donate jewBert

[Dash08]

Originally Posted by 06Speed6 Stock DI injectors are good to 8000rpm. You will never get it that high though because the rod length is too short for the stroke. Its a true catch 22 in that you need very light parts to hit 8000rpm with our engine design, but our engine is a torque monster at low rpm and it will blow those light weight parts.

Nice. Torque monsters FTMFW!!

Originally Posted by SpeedSixxx and you don't even know why they fall on their face past 6k.... don't give input if it's just jibber jabber nonsense. a fully built, balanced motor with BT...even just a BT car will have power till 7k... shhhh, read more and ummm donate jewBert

jeese man u are so negative. help the newb out. Not everyone knows everything

[06Speed6]

Originally Posted by 18psiWhiteMS3 jeese man u are so negative. help the newb out. Not everyone knows everything

^^^ +1 that was kinda uncalled for.

[SpeedSixxx]

Originally Posted by 18psiWhiteMS3 jeese man u are so negative. help the newb out. Not everyone knows everything

hey hey now baby cakes....

I hold my self back. I'm no where near as nasty as I could be =)

no need to be.

when other nubs read his comment they gonna all assume OMG what is wrong with this car? der her it loses power past 6k jesus what a fail boat I got..lemme get a faggot sti or evo like every other trader. =-)

or something like that...just spewing some good info their way with a twist of nastiness

edit: changed my post a lil...in hopes of calming the crowd.

not as "un called for" as before...i hope

[SSinstaller]

Originally Posted by SpeedSixxx hey hey now baby cakes.... I hold my self back. I'm no where near as nasty as I could be =) no need to be. when other nubs read his comment they gonna all assume OMG what is wrong with this car? der her it loses power past 6k jesus what a fail boat I got..lemme get a faggot sti or evo like every other trader. =-) or something like that...just spewing some good info their way with a twist of nastiness edit: changed my post a lil...in hopes of calming the crowd. not as "un called for" as before...i hope

I'd change that shit back... I just as tired of seeing that same BS over and over again..

Read>Learn>Speak---- It should happen in that order...LOL I don't give people shit about donating though, not everyone has the means, and I'm not going call someone out on that...

[clos561]

falls on face cuz stock turbo

falls on face cause he tripped over his shoe lace

[integrrac]

My R6 has the highest red line

[802MS3]

isnt the true reason why the stock car falls on its face because Mazda slams the throttle shut on us.....

the turbo does suck, but without the throttle closing, it will pull to redline. its blowing very hot air at that point, and it won't pull as hard as a larger turbo.

[integrrac]

Originally Posted by opt_ms3 isnt the true reason why the stock car falls on its face because Mazda slams the throttle shut on us..... the turbo does suck, but without the throttle closing, it will pull to redline. its blowing very hot air at that point, and it won't pull as hard as a larger turbo.

I copied this from the stickied K04 report thread in the turbo section.

The K04 is designed to provide reliable, long-term service as long as its performance parameters are not exceeded. Driving the car at engine speeds above 5800 rpm with 15spi or greater boost significantly increases the exhaust temperature measured inside the K04 turbine housing. This signals that the maximum efficiency of the turbocharger has been exceeded, and that the energy produced by the turbine housing is now converting to heat rather than accelerating the compressor wheel faster. Unless a careful and extended idle-down is performed at the end of every hard driving session, the rapid heat build-up from high boost/high rpm operation causes the turbine shaft to soften, and allows the inconel turbine head to droop. The result is an imbalance that ultimately leads to a shaft failure.


I assume Mazda knows about these limitations and designed some safe gaurds into the ECu to stop the turbo from failing catastrophically.

[ms3077]

Originally Posted by integrrac I copied this from the stickied K04 report thread in the turbo section. The K04 is designed to provide reliable, long-term service as long as its performance parameters are not exceeded. Driving the car at engine speeds above 5800 rpm with 15spi or greater boost significantly increases the exhaust temperature measured inside the K04 turbine housing. This signals that the maximum efficiency of the turbocharger has been exceeded, and that the energy produced by the turbine housing is now converting to heat rather than accelerating the compressor wheel faster. Unless a careful and extended idle-down is performed at the end of every hard driving session, the rapid heat build-up from high boost/high rpm operation causes the turbine shaft to soften, and allows the inconel turbine head to droop. The result is an imbalance that ultimately leads to a shaft failure. I assume Mazda knows about these limitations and designed some safe gaurds into the ECu to stop the turbo from failing catastrophically.

Yep and for some reason ppl seem to keep forgetting about this. The car is basically maxing out the k04 bone stock, much higher and the turbo is out of its efficiency. It’s no mystery.

[8.5MS3]

^^wasnt that taken off a a VW forum? engine size has a lot to do with the efficiency of the turbo. A 1.8 or 2.0 wont push as much cfm as our 2.3 at 5800, which only lowers the max rpm even further

[madvillain]

All I know, is that I want an 8,000rpm disi.

13,000 rpm redline on my ninja 1000

[massiespeed3]

30,000 RPMs in my RC car HA

[fhaze]

...so if one has a more efficient TMIC, they could up the boost to 17.5 PSI and be just as reliable as stock TMIC @ 15.5 PSI, yes?

[TRex]

Originally Posted by opt_ms3 isnt the true reason why the stock car falls on its face because Mazda slams the throttle shut on us..... the turbo does suck, but without the throttle closing, it will pull to redline. its blowing very hot air at that point, and it won't pull as hard as a larger turbo.

no...im pretty sure it is all turbo...throttle is slamming shut in order to protect your turbo and engine...if you did force it open you would just be operating in the choke region and generating an ass ton of heat and not getting any additional boost...looking at compressor map shows this

[Br Prozium]

ya dont count on a power past 6500 RPM with an upgraded turbo.

[TRex]

^without

[Mizzle]

Christ on a cross.

So other than rod length, what else would be the limiting factor mechanically speaking (aka I don't want 15 pages of dribble about the K04)? Assume a built bottom end.

[ms3077]

Originally Posted by Mizzle Christ on a cross. So other than rod length, what else would be the limiting factor mechanically speaking (aka I don't want 15 pages of dribble about the K04)? Assume a built bottom end.

Well, we'll assume at this point you understand that the stock turbo (K04) needs to go if you want a higher redline? Considering there was a full 3-4 post on the subject not 15 pages?

What are other “mechanically” limiting factors? Let’s see:

The rods seem to be the first to go much of the time. You probably want to get stronger ones.

The fuel pump isn’t always sufficient once much pass stock ECU parameters.

Other than that it's hard to tell because it's not like they're even 10+ MS3's running around w / 400whp.

But the bottom line is that this motor wasn’t designed from the ground up to be a high revving motor like a Honda. And there are still a lot of unknowns regarding the factory ECU (major hold back)

But the only way to really have a strong since of confidence that the motor will hold up under a significantly higher level of stress is to build it from the bottom up.

So the unfortunate reality for someone looking to dramatically change the characteristics of this motor is that it will most likely require a pretty substantial investment (i.e., complete motor build) let alone a thorough understanding of the ECU.

And at this point people are more concerned with just pulling to the factory redline (6700RPMS) and making modest power gains.

[Mizzle]

I know the limiter can be removed on the NA motor. That being said, I've seen someone go to 8,000 rpm and the ECU works up there. Seems to me that a built motor, larger turbo, hpfp + upgraded in-tank pump + tuning would get up around that high, no?

[SSinstaller]

Originally Posted by Mizzle I know the limiter can be removed on the NA motor. That being said, I've seen someone go to 8,000 rpm and the ECU works up there. Seems to me that a built motor, larger turbo, hpfp + upgraded in-tank pump + tuning would get up around that high, no?

If you want to rev that high go buy yourself an RX8.. Building the motor doesn't change the rod/stroke ratio..

I would not take this engine past 7K period.

[JoshProtegeGarage]

this is my mazda 3, is this high enough?

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[nyghtryder]

Originally Posted by Mizzle I know the limiter can be removed on the NA motor. That being said, I've seen someone go to 8,000 rpm and the ECU works up there. Seems to me that a built motor, larger turbo, hpfp + upgraded in-tank pump + tuning would get up around that high, no?

NA is port injection not disi. its also alot easier to get power out of that motor. Really whats the need of the high revs? I had a built ohv cavalier that was quite fast and it maxed at 5500rpm. It too was a torque monster. We have the gearing and torque to not need high rpm power and still be very fast.

[JoshProtegeGarage]

Originally Posted by JoshProtegeGarage this is my mazda 3, is this high enough?

troof

[SSinstaller]

did you just quote yourself?

[nyghtryder]

lol what a dumbass

[JoshProtegeGarage]

Originally Posted by nyghtryder NA is port injection not disi. its also alot easier to get power out of that motor. Really whats the need of the high revs? I had a built ohv cavalier that was quite fast and it maxed at 5500rpm. It too was a torque monster. We have the gearing and torque to not need high rpm power and still be very fast.

troof.

Originally Posted by SSinstaller did you just quote yourself?

yea that was a quote fail on my part, i meant to quote the other guy, i corrected it, thanks for catching that for me.

[IshiKage]

RaceRoots redline was around 8k on stock head.

[SSinstaller]

Originally Posted by 240mazspd3 RaceRoots redline was around 8k on stock head.

I think RR's credibility is pretty low on this forum.. I feel sorry for whoever buys that car..

[IshiKage]

that true but doesnt change the fact that the redline was that high

[SSinstaller]

Originally Posted by 240mazspd3 that true but doesnt change the fact that the redline was that high

Anyone with an AP can set the redline wherever they want.. It doesn't make it safe for the motor long term, and it most likely doesn't make more power either..

[ms3077]

Yeah there's a difference between actually making power to redline and just revving to redline.