Hnda Etr Blows...

[hnda etr]

Originally Posted by 240mazspd3 i think it needs to be made clear to peeople who are thinking about going SST need to build their motor

Hopefully they'll learn from my stupidity and not jump on it after install too - change your maps, lower loads/boost/wgdc and slowly tune upwards...

Originally Posted by acmhd7 Fuckin' lame Roy, well if ya need a helping hand just lemme know. As lenny said save yo pennies and go BT! Then your car will be as fast as it looks!

Thanks Adam, I appreciate the offer! You can help me when I sneak over and steal Lenny's BT...

Originally Posted by rigor the question is when did you peak 24 psi? if at 1400 that would be bad, but hell i ran around @ 26 psi for several weeks, and held that boost from 3500-7k many times on stock internals, no problems and did a compression test after the fact, 195 on all but #3 was 190 if i recall right... but dont they trim those to boost later? hmmm... good luck man!

Thanks Man!

Originally Posted by Haltech SSt will kill a stock engine. to much torque down low, to quick. Its been common knowledge around here for 18 months. Build the motor, go 35r and tear up some ass.

You bet!

Originally Posted by blaggah hnda etr sell me that bnoon banjo bolt you just bought, since you don't need it now...

$1500 dorrah... they sell for a premium now you know... PM me offer if you can't do $1500 shipped...

Originally Posted by Lex The stock MAP sensor caps out at 24psi. So it's likely you were actually spiking higher than that.

didn't even think about that, but you're probably right... just wish I knew what caused the over boosting...

Originally Posted by lenny127 also, for those that say the new ko4 shouldnt have been boosting any diff...well.... let me tell u this, i boosted 2 psi higher using the new ko4 with the ported hotside and THE SAME WGA from my oem ko4.... so...anything is possible, the lesson to be learned is to NEVER get on it until u know the car wont overboost, i have spent the past 2 days trying lil by lil with my set up to see how the car reacts with roll in throttle , stabbing at throttle, diff rpms etc etc...

All your stupidz are belong to me.

Originally Posted by 06Speed6 That really sucks, but at least you do have a good block, crank, and head. Rebuilds are alot cheaper when you dont grenade the whole thing.

yeah!

Originally Posted by jracer Sorry to hear about this.. that sucks. But it looks like you have lots of parts to get running again. if i can help in any way ask..

Thanks Bro!

Originally Posted by mazda.speed3 Sucks to hear, good luck with the rebuild.

Thanks!

Originally Posted by wankular My bank account thanks you for not parting out. Good luck with the rebuild.

lol... Thanks!

Originally Posted by tbot Dude sorry to hear man, it sucks balls, I know the feeling! To be honest, you're in a way better position than I am in that you have all the parts. I don't have dick atm. Good luck w/ the build, and I hope that you're up and running sooner than I am. Keep us all posted.

Thanks man... and if I can help you in any way, lmk too!

Originally Posted by djuosnteisn ^ this all sounds awful. The cutting could have very well been deto, and seems like a healthy dose. Your lucky to have a complete block man, congrats on that! And now you have an excuse to make your block much much stronger.

True that Dustin!

[whoosh@Realtune]

Originally Posted by driver311 I feel your pain bro and Im sorry. Similar thing happened to me. I put a new map in and got on it right off the bat. Between that and a faulty stock pump I fell to the same outcome but only worse. Good things will come of it. Ps. The Pg turbo and ptp wg were not the problems. It was just a bad combo of circumstance.

[Dano]

Originally Posted by hnda etr All your stupidz are belong to me.

too funny...

[FORZDA 1]

Originally Posted by djuosnteisn .... The cutting could have very well been deto, and seems like a healthy dose. ......

Yep, this ^^^^ is what killed the rod(s). Been there, done that. I was driving codemaster883s car when it happened on stock turbo with AP OTS map and no standalone boost gauge.

[Dash08]

Damn. I'm out of the loop. Lenny's BT'd and you popped. Shit.

You were shooting loads in your intake again huh? Man, you didn't bend a rod, your jizz collected and hardened. God dammit, Roy. If you were that hard up, you should have just sprung for a fleshlight.

[hnda etr]

Originally Posted by Dash08 Damn. I'm out of the loop. Lenny's BT'd and you popped. Shit. You were shooting loads in your intake again huh? Man, you didn't bend a rod, your jizz collected and hardened. God dammit, Roy. If you were that hard up, you should have just sprung for a fleshlight.

lol Fleshlight FTW!

[Dash08]

I am sorry to hear that your motor took a shit though. Really, man. Although, I've been there a few times myself not only on this car, but others. It always sucks to hear about it.

Good luck.

[tbot]

Originally Posted by hnda etr Thanks man... and if I can help you in any way, lmk too!

If i knew how to ask for help I'm sure I would, but I'm the kinda person that will refuse to ask for anything, granted on the other hand I will go outa my way to help someone else out...go figure that one out.

[hnda etr]

Originally Posted by Dash08 I am sorry to hear that your motor took a shit though. Really, man. Although, I've been there a few times myself not only on this car, but others. It always sucks to hear about it. Good luck.

Thanks Tony!

Originally Posted by tbot If i knew how to ask for help I'm sure I would, but I'm the kinda person that will refuse to ask for anything, granted on the other hand I will go outa my way to help someone else out...go figure that one out.

Yeah, I can understand that lol!

[Lex]

Originally Posted by FORZDA 1 Yep, this ^^^^ is what killed the rod(s). Been there, done that. I was driving codemaster883s car when it happened on stock turbo with AP OTS map and no standalone boost gauge.

This is also a lesson about setting safety thresholds on a stock block. If the ECU cut limit is set at 3.0 load ... well it's too little too late.

[FORZDA 1]

Originally Posted by Lex This is also a lesson about setting safety thresholds on a stock block. If the ECU cut limit is set at 3.0 load ... well it's too little too late.

LOL Have you seen my Load tables? They're indeed set to 2.95. I use the max boost fuel cut to "save" the motor (it works well BTW), well at least up till now! I really don't WANT to vent the block, but you gotta break a few eggs to make an omelet! Wish me luck, PLEASE!

Oh, and I would NOT tune someone elses' car to that level!!!

[Dano]

Originally Posted by FORZDA 1 . I use the max boost fuel cut to "save" the motor (it works well BTW)

This brings up an interesting question. When I have set any limit tables like Throttle Close or Fuel cut on the Boost tables I notice that just because you hit those limits doesn't mean the ECU will enforce them, at least not immediately.

Maybe you have to exceed that limit for a full second or two? if that's the case it would likely be too late.

Has anyone else experienced this?

[djuosnteisn]

Best safety net is a properly setup knock sensor and KR IMO. Cuts are helpful, but you can definitely detonate below cut thresholds in many cases, and many times the cut has to be "qualified", like exceeded for XXX milliseconds... which is often too late.

[cld12pk2go]

I have been traveling most of the last 2 weeks and am just now reading through this thread...

My best guess is that the boost went well over 24 PSI causing detonation or simply too much cylinder pressure (either = FAIL for the stock rods).

Which map were you on when said FAIL occurred? I will look at if for some clues.

It is a shame we don't have more logs to examine to better understand the exact failure mode. The single log you had from the boost targeting map appeared to be in early gears (2nd/3rd maybe) where there were very few data points to make any meaningful determination other than the WGDC was chasing it's tail wildly.

[djuosnteisn]

It sounded like both maps to me. One session of fail with the boost targeting map, and the finishing blow after he went back to previous map.

Cld12pk, was this the latest ATR?

Oh, and i think he was logging on the boost targeting map IIRC, perhaps we could check those out...

[speed23]

Originally Posted by Dano2010 This brings up an interesting question. When I have set any limit tables like Throttle Close or Fuel cut on the Boost tables I notice that just because you hit those limits doesn't mean the ECU will enforce them, at least not immediately. Maybe you have to exceed that limit for a full second or two? if that's the case it would likely be too late. Has anyone else experienced this?

I have found this as well.

[AZSPEED3]

In late, damn man that sucks to hear about the motor. Glad to hear you had a spare motor. Good luck on the rebuild.

[hnda etr]

Originally Posted by cld12pk2go I have been traveling most of the last 2 weeks and am just now reading through this thread... My best guess is that the boost went well over 24 PSI causing detonation or simply too much cylinder pressure (either = FAIL for the stock rods). Which map were you on when said FAIL occurred? I will look at if for some clues. It is a shame we don't have more logs to examine to better understand the exact failure mode. The single log you had from the boost targeting map appeared to be in early gears (2nd/3rd maybe) where there were very few data points to make any meaningful determination other than the WGDC was chasing it's tail wildly.

I was running the HE18b map... I don't know if I sent that one to you, but I'll send it to you tonight just to be sure.

Originally Posted by djuosnteisn It sounded like both maps to me. One session of fail with the boost targeting map, and the finishing blow after he went back to previous map. Cld12pk, was this the latest ATR? Oh, and i think he was logging on the boost targeting map IIRC, perhaps we could check those out...

Cld12pk has the 1 log I took on the boost targeting map already...

Originally Posted by AZSPEED3 In late, damn man that sucks to hear about the motor. Glad to hear you had a spare motor. Good luck on the rebuild.

Thanks buddy!

[Haltech]

Be interesting to see this map you initially caused the damage with.. unfortunately roy, i really wish you would of at least asked for a very very toned down map or even went to a stage 1 16 psi map just to see how the WGA and SST were going to work.

I do not think this map is as much fail as your WGA modification and the SST itself. I have very little faith in Johns abilities and no faith in PG's ability when it came to "designing" the modified SST. I do not think there is one person now who has run an SST that has not blown.

Anyhow, what did my man Dante say?

[Lex]

If boost is out of control you want to do 3 things. Open WG, close throttle, cut spark, NOT fuel and you want to do it as quickly as possible. Might create a fireball in the exhaust but the motor is more likely to survive this way.

I am not sure what strategy the car uses for the different cuts (load, boost, etc).

[rodrigo]

Originally Posted by Dano2010 Lenny, were you running EBC or MBC at this time? Just trying to learn a thing or two here. an MBC wouldn't know the difference and would certainly over boost whereas and EBC has a target and would adjust, to a point.

i was completely stock oem bc + AP...

mbc i bought solely for the BT.......


so.... the ONLY thing that had changed was the TURBO.... not even the wga was diff...i re used the old one. that to me tells u that u cannot dismiss any variable just because u think its the same.

[FORZDA 1]

Originally Posted by Dano2010 This brings up an interesting question. When I have set any limit tables like Throttle Close or Fuel cut on the Boost tables I notice that just because you hit those limits doesn't mean the ECU will enforce them, at least not immediately. Maybe you have to exceed that limit for a full second or two? if that's the case it would likely be too late. Has anyone else experienced this?

I've only had one instance of max boost fuel cut and it was less than 1/2 second on the log I was running. The log data intervals were ~4 milliseconds, so the ECU reaction was somewhat less than that. The throttle close settings, IMO, only apply with a very slowly increasing boost and with some amount of time delay before it "works". There will ALWAYS be some hysteresis (delays) in the ECU reaction to prevent oscillating. There are likely hysteresis settings that can be changed if Christian or Trey were to look for them and add to ATR.

I have not logged ANY throttle close occurances. Of course when logging I'm at WOT for pretty much the whole time, so any limit "excursions" are rapid and decisive!

[Dano]

now that I think about it, I have hit fuel cut and I "think" it was fairly quick...I know throttle close is much slower to react but would actually be the absolute best thing to happen first.

As Lex said spark maybe but, filling the cat with fuel on a hot exhaust aint so good. Better there than the motor though for sure.

I would agree with Haltech on the SST...those can just be a bad idea because of their super fast spool and tendency to spike...then you make them more powerful. BT is MUCH better.

we live...and hopefully....if we pay attention....we learn....

Edit: I went back to look at logs and Boost Limit - Throttle Close does nothing. I have logs where the limit is exceeded for over 2 seconds and the throttle was actually opening more.

[cld12pk2go]

Originally Posted by hnda etr I was running the HE18b map... I don't know if I sent that one to you, but I'll send it to you tonight just to be sure. Cld12pk has the 1 log I took on the boost targeting map already... Thanks buddy!

I sent you two HE18's within a few min (made another quick tweak on the second version), is the second one what you call HE18b or did you make changes to one of them to arrive at that map?

If it was just the second map, the key attributes on it where as follows:

• Boost targeting, aiming for 17 PSI (intent was to be super conservative until how the car responded was understood/dialed in)
  
• WGDC was pulled down 1-3 units (~5-15%) across the board from the HE16c map
  
• Boost Dynamics were about 20% detuned from what was working well for me with my K04 in boost targeting mode
  
• Used the same boost limit - fuel cut as in HE16c (22.6 PSI). In hind sight, this probably should have been lowered to minimize the chance of overboost prior to cut.

Here is the single log from HE18:



I am assuming this is a 2nd/3rd gear pull. It is obvious that the WGDC is pretty much going bonkers and that he was running a full point leaner than on the previous maps prior to the turbo swap.

HE19 was going to cut the boost dynamics in half and drop the boost limit - fuel cut to 22 PSI, alas it was too late by then.

[cld12pk2go]

Originally Posted by Dano2010 Edit: I went back to look at logs and Boost Limit - Throttle Close does nothing. I have logs where the limit is exceeded for over 2 seconds and the throttle was actually opening more.

I have never seen this do squat either. Not sure why, as it would be a useful function.

[MS3-a(sore)ASS-rex]

Sorry to hear that man going boom must suck, bright side is that now you can be built.

Cheapest solution to building the block? Do it yourself, it's actually really simple. Just measuring a bunch of shit and installing.

Or you could cut your losses and sell me your transmission for cheap
Best of luck!

[hnda etr]

Originally Posted by Haltech Be interesting to see this map you initially caused the damage with.. unfortunately roy, i really wish you would of at least asked for a very very toned down map or even went to a stage 1 16 psi map just to see how the WGA and SST were going to work. I do not think this map is as much fail as your WGA modification and the SST itself. I have very little faith in Johns abilities and no faith in PG's ability when it came to "designing" the modified SST. I do not think there is one person now who has run an SST that has not blown. Anyhow, what did my man Dante say?

I haven't called him yet...

Originally Posted by cld12pk2go I sent you two HE18's within a few min (made another quick tweak on the second version), is the second one what you call HE18b or did you make changes to one of them to arrive at that map? If it was just the second map, the key attributes on it where as follows: Boost targeting, aiming for 17 PSI (intent was to be super conservative until how the car responded was understood/dialed in) WGDC was pulled down 1-3 units (~5-15%) across the board from the HE16c map Boost Dynamics were about 20% detuned from what was working well for me with my K04 in boost targeting mode Used the same boost limit - fuel cut as in HE16c (22.6 PSI). In hind sight, this probably should have been lowered to minimize the chance of overboost prior to cut. Here is the single log from HE18: I am assuming this is a 2nd/3rd gear pull. It is obvious that the WGDC is pretty much going bonkers and that he was running a full point leaner than on the previous maps prior to the turbo swap. HE19 was going to cut the boost dynamics in half and drop the boost limit - fuel cut to 22 PSI, alas it was too late by then.

The HE16b I'm referring to is a modification of your HE16 map - I think I emailed it to you last week - it contained changes to the Ign Timing Max A&B tables and I think some additional fuel pressure...

EDIT - I meant 16b - sorry!

Originally Posted by MS3-asaurus rex Sorry to hear that man going boom must suck, bright side is that now you can be built. Cheapest solution to building the block? Do it yourself, it's actually really simple. Just measuring a bunch of shit and installing. Or you could cut your losses and sell me your transmission for cheap Best of luck!

I actually have a transmission for sale if you're serious... PM me what you're looking to spend and I'll see if it's worth it

[hnda etr]

Here's the map i was running when i popped

[06Speed6]

I have the PTP wga and it actually adds to the spiking because it doesnt get blown open until much higher turbine pressures are reached, as compaired to stock.

The bonus is that it holds boost longer.

The spiking has been near impossible to tune out though.

[rodrigo]

Originally Posted by cld12pk2go I sent you two HE18's within a few min (made another quick tweak on the second version), is the second one what you call HE18b or did you make changes to one of them to arrive at that map? If it was just the second map, the key attributes on it where as follows: Boost targeting, aiming for 17 PSI (intent was to be super conservative until how the car responded was understood/dialed in) WGDC was pulled down 1-3 units (~5-15%) across the board from the HE16c map Boost Dynamics were about 20% detuned from what was working well for me with my K04 in boost targeting mode Used the same boost limit - fuel cut as in HE16c (22.6 PSI). In hind sight, this probably should have been lowered to minimize the chance of overboost prior to cut. Here is the single log from HE18: I am assuming this is a 2nd/3rd gear pull. It is obvious that the WGDC is pretty much going bonkers and that he was running a full point leaner than on the previous maps prior to the turbo swap. HE19 was going to cut the boost dynamics in half and drop the boost limit - fuel cut to 22 PSI, alas it was too late by then.

whats the deal with that super high load at 4500 rpm?? KR went nuts too.

man this shit kinda makes me have second thoughts about letting xtian tune me with ebc

[hnda etr]

Originally Posted by lenny127 whats the deal with that super high load at 4500 rpm?? KR went nuts too. man this shit kinda makes me have second thoughts about letting xtian tune me with ebc

I'll let Cld12pk chime in here... That was the first map we tried that was boost based instead of load based...

[hnda etr]

Originally Posted by 06Speed6 I have the PTP wga and it actually adds to the spiking because it doesnt get blown open until much higher turbine pressures are reached, as compaired to stock. The bonus is that it holds boost longer. The spiking has been near impossible to tune out though.

The PTP wga is adjustable though, so you should be able to loosen it up... Iirc it's a ~14lbs spring...

[rodrigo]

Originally Posted by hnda etr I'll let Cld12pk chime in here... That was the first map we tried that was boost based instead of load based...

ya idk shit..it just looks odd compared to other ones ... so u seel any shit yet?

[06Speed6]

Originally Posted by hnda etr The PTP wga is adjustable though, so you should be able to loosen it up... Iirc it's a ~14lbs spring...

Yeah its adjustable, but even so its way stiffer.

[Fobio]

Originally Posted by 06Speed6 I have the PTP wga and it actually adds to the spiking because it doesnt get blown open until much higher turbine pressures are reached, as compaired to stock. The bonus is that it holds boost longer. The spiking has been near impossible to tune out though.

I'm running the PTP WGA with the GS EBCS just fine...it took a long time and my preload was set higher than I wanted by my mechanic, but it's doable with ATR.

[hnda etr]

Originally Posted by AtTheDriveIn Sorry to hear. I'm glad you got another motor so you're not in a terrible situation, but there's always the cost/time of building and swapping involved. Hey if you decide to get rid of the Volks shoot me a PM...

Pm sent about wheels...

[cld12pk2go]

Originally Posted by lenny127 whats the deal with that super high load at 4500 rpm?? KR went nuts too. man this shit kinda makes me have second thoughts about letting xtian tune me with ebc

Boost was spiking after the shift. Since the KR was in the last data row prior to lifting, it is unclear if that is "let of throttle KR" or the more typical kind.

We really just don't have enough data, but everything tends to suggest that the new turbo/WGA was responding much more aggressively than the previous setup.

What is confusing is why the pull showed lean in the first gear during the pull. I wonder if the meth was not working or if we had unmetered air entering between the turbo and MAF?


Lenny,

What I would recommend when trying out new maps or after hardware changes would be the following procedure:

1.) do a partial throttle pull in a high gear (like 4th or 5th) to above the CL/OL transition (say 10 PSI) and log while watching AFR or KR on the AP. Review datalog to assure that your AFR is as per your fueling tables in OL else you need to fix something (recalibrate MAF tables, get meth working, fix unmetered air leaks). Also verify that nothing unexpected is occurring with the boost control/WGDC or KR.

2.) Once satisfied with the results, do other logs in a high gear to progressively higher boost levels until you have reached WOT analyzing the data after each pass (probably another 2-3 iterations).

The reason I say do it in a high gear is that bad things can happen way too fast in the low gears to respond in time and in our case we cannot get sufficient data in any gear below 4th. If anything is amiss on the above pulls, lift immediately and analyze the logs for clues as to what is wrong.

[Ziggo]

Originally Posted by cld12pk2go I have never seen this do squat either. Not sure why, as it would be a useful function.

I used it pretty effectively on my "save the fuel pump" map. I found that it would allow the boost to go about 2-3psi above the number in the table before taking action.

I put it right at my boost target which was 15psi and it kept boost from creeping above 17psi (before the limit it would creep to 18.4-19psi on cold nights and cause my fuel pressure to drop)

I think it's more effective at preventing creep than preventing spiking.

[cld12pk2go]

Originally Posted by Ziggo I used it pretty effectively on my "save the fuel pump" map. I found that it would allow the boost to go about 2-3psi above the number in the table before taking action. I put it right at my boost target which was 15psi and it kept boost from creeping above 17psi (before the limit it would creep to 18.4-19psi on cold nights and cause my fuel pressure to drop) I think it's more effective at preventing creep than preventing spiking.

I never played with it extensively; however, I repeatedly saw it ignore 0-1 PSI over the table value without any appreciable response on the throttle position.

Sounds like it just requires more boost error prior to taking meaningful action based upon your findings...

[Dano]

Originally Posted by cld12pk2go Sounds like it just requires more boost error prior to taking meaningful action based upon your findings...

Sounds like a multiplier or comp table is still out there somewhere and perhaps if we had it we could set the boost error to .01 and it will kick in immediately.

I don't think I have ever gone over 2 PSI beyond the Throttle Close table so maybe I'll try setting it lower to see what is what.