How bad is this-Oil everywhere

[Dano]

So how fucked am I.

where to start.

Timeline:

many months ago I ran an SRI w/o a VC vac connection and so I ran a VC breather for 3 weeks and zero oil on it.

a few months back I did a VCTS delete, IM Porting, Walnut media blasted the valves. oh an went from 22psi to 25psi

month after that I check my oil and am about 1/4-1/2 qt low but its oil change time and I think nothing of it. it has never been low between changes.

2 months later while installing my JBR 3.5 intake I noticed a little oil in my VC vent tube and in my SRI which was unusual b/c I never get anything in there.

Last week or maybe the one before I remove it to work on some wiring issues and the intake is full of oil. oil is pooling in the compressor inlet where the coupler connects. WTF!

This past weekend I am worried so I get a leakdown tester and check everything...maybe 2% leakdown in every cylinder.



Monday I get in the car to go get some logs and it is running rough as shit when I start it....it settles down a bit and I attempt a run and sputtering spitting etc but it clears up and I get some runs in.

Well the AF in the runs tanks out into the 9s for no reason.

I pull my air filter off and oil everywhere. MAF is covered in a fine mist of oil which I guess the BOV is blowing back up the intake when I lift. goddamit!

I check my secondary PCV valve and it holds 40PSI and works freely.

I plug the vac connection in the intake and put the breather back on my VC until I can investigate further. I clean the intake and MAF.

2 days later, today, the breather is dripping in oil, I got some logs today and again AF in the 9s...duh the car is burning a ton of oil. oil = hydrocarbon. I decide to take the OCC lines out, both PCVs and look around.

PCV appear to be working correctly and both will hold 40PSI by my compressor.

to get to the factory PCV you need to pull the IM...OH MY GOD!

so it too is covered in a fine mist of oil.

I take a peek at the valves and I find only one that looks like this.



The rest look like this because 4K miles ago I blasted them remember?

oh an again oil mist EVERYWHERE



hotpipe: Hard to see but oil is pooling in the coupler area and coated in oil everywhere else



the OCC connections and turbo drain line show signs of leaking which they never have before.

sooooooo....to sum it up

zero leakdown and equal good compression in all cylinders
PCV valves appear to be working properly
dipstick has no issues
WTF is up with the intake valve in cyl1? is this valve guides/seals, was it damaged during the cleaning, and most importantly could this cause all the blowby? just one valve

IIRC @Realgib3 had similar issues but i'm not sure what the diagnosis was for sure.

I am at a total loss and am all ears to know what is going on.

@phate
@silvapain
@Ziggo
@doubleflusher
@SPEED6 KILLAH
@djuosnteisn

[Haltech]

Something very similar happened to one our guys on the canyon cruise. The occ seems to be the source. You may need to vent it.

[IshiKage]

Vented is the way to go.

[Dano]

hum...I have had this OCC since like 15k miles and never had an issue before although I just went from a ~22PSI tune to a 25PSI tune.

I would think the dipstick would blow.

how do you vent an OCC? do you need a check valve on the vent so it only vents under pressure?

the oil covered valve in cyl 1 does worry me as well as the blowby stuff.

is this what happens when you go from 22 psi to 25ish?

[phate]

Originally Posted by Dano zero leakdown and equal good compression in all cylinders PCV valves appear to be working properly dipstick has no issues WTF is up with the intake valve in cyl1? is this valve guides/seals, was it damaged during the cleaning, and most importantly could this cause all the blowby? just one valve IIRC Realgib3 had similar issues but i'm not sure what the diagnosis was for sure.

Originally Posted by Haltech Something very similar happened to one our guys on the canyon cruise. The occ seems to be the source. You may need to vent it.

OCC was my first thought, as well. Don't have much experience with them (never ran one on my 3), but they seem to cause some blow-by symptoms in a few cases. I'm curious why this occurs, though. I'll be running uber boost on the 6, and plan to do some sort of catch can thing.

[Dano]

Originally Posted by phate OCC was my first thought, as well. Don't have much experience with them (never ran one on my 3), but they seem to cause some blow-by symptoms in a few cases. I'm curious why this occurs, though. I'll be running uber boost on the 6, and plan to do some sort of catch can thing.

hum...I just went from 22PSI to 25-26PSI so maybe that is the difference?

also, you may have looked at the @chimmike thread regarding the GT turbos and the debate on needing a oil feed restrictor or not. I have 20K on this turbo with no issues, no restrictor but wonder if this is part of the cause.

oh an interestingly enough I am down about 20WHP even when the AF isnt' tanking. burning oil just isn't good for performance

[Haltech]

Welp, your dipstick would only pop out if the lines were crossed on the occ. that seems common on first installs only though. i think the nator nj guys can give you instructions on how to properly vent it... Or even a different solution.
@NJSPEED3 @doubleflusher

[Dano]

hahah

I have read some threads on all that stuff but didn't think I was crossing into that territory....def interested in what they say.

I know @superskaterxes did some VC work to vent things....and I like the slash pipe idea but again, didn't think I was there yet.

maybe I just need to paint my VC shocker yellow or green or whatever color that boy runs


@cld12pk2go runs the same boost at more airflow..

what say you?

the sadder news is that I have an almost brand new GTX3071 sitting on my desk

FML

[MATT DAMOND]

@Dano

This issue is most likely cause by running two PCV valves. Running an additional PCV valve would not allow the crankcase to ventilate properly, since it restricts the vacuum source on the crankcase. Since basically no effective vacuum in on the crankcase, at engine vacuum conditions, oil and blow by will be evacuated via the breather port on the valve cover.

I did a lot of vacuum testing on the crankcase, when I made the switch from an additional PCV valve to a check valve, in my OCC kits.

I'd recommend replacing the additional PCV valve with a check valve. You could delete the additional valve to see if that may resolve the issue.

[Dano]

alrighteythen!

I'll start out by removing the secondary PCV and order a check valve and barbs from McMaster Carr

maybe the 2 PCVs worked for years at sub 22PSi but there is just too much pressure getting buy the rings now??

does it make sense to remove all PCVs from the system?

my scoobie buddies run zero and run AOSes and VTA the AOS

why do no Mazdaspeed guys run this setup? or do they?

thanks again for the valuable input!

[BlueStreak]

I ran a gutted pcv off the crankcase>occ>cv>IM and while the engine had MAD crankcase vacuum (as evidenced by putting our thumbs on the VC vent) and ltfts were spot on, the idle went all wonky and lost about 2PSI IM vacuum according to the AP. Reverted back to a regular pcv the next day.

I'm a bit confused here tho. From what I'm understanding, you're running IM>pcv>occ>pcv>cc correct? Matt says that this could be the cause of the oily intake and i agree this would have an effect under vacuum conditions. But what happens under boost when the valves close? Excess pressure would still come out the VC assuming blowby>inlet vacuum.

EDIT: Added to paragraph 1.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Dano]

you are correct on my setup. I left the OE PCV in place on the black box...then route to OCC, the to secondary OE PCV to IM. This was the setup Cobb recommended back in the day and I haven't changed it.

so it sounds like all the oiling is occurring under vacuum not boost. Is this what you are thinking?

if this were the case my upping the boost would have no affect yet that is when this all started...well that and the valve cleaning and IM porting.

my "secondary' or maybe primary issue is why does that one valve look so horrible?

I gotta think the guide and/or seal are bad. I so don't want to build a motor/head?

I wanted to do a drop in forged build...lolololol god!

oh and keep in mind before the "project" I had zero oil in my VC vent. not kidding...dry as a powder house.

[BlueStreak]

Originally Posted by Dano so it sounds like all the oiling is occurring under vacuum not boost. Is this what you are thinking? if this were the case my upping the boost would have no affect yet that is when this all started...well that and the valve cleaning and IM porting.

I would say that the dual pcv could have an effect under vac conditions but no effect under boost. Matt's explanation left me scratching my head but it's also 2am here sooo...

That valve issue is an odd one though.

EDIT: I recall my engine builder saying that the exhaust valve guides needed to be replaced and that the exh valve seals more or less fell out when they did the headwork on both of my motors. Somewhat on the same vein as your train of thought but you're on the intake side.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Dano]

ok...yes its late...if I wasn't so tired I'd go out, pour the remaining 3 gallons of meth all over my engine bay, strike a match and walk away....hahahahaha

nice pretty blue flames....oh yes sleepy

things may look at least a little better in the light of day....yawn...

thanks guys!

[MATT DAMOND]

Originally Posted by Dano alrighteythen! I'll start out by removing the secondary PCV and order a check valve and barbs from McMaster Carr maybe the 2 PCVs worked for years at sub 22PSi but there is just too much pressure getting buy the rings now?? does it make sense to remove all PCVs from the system? my scoobie buddies run zero and run AOSes and VTA the AOS why do no Mazdaspeed guys run this setup? or do they? thanks again for the valuable input!

I can get you one of my check valves with all the fittings, prob cheaper than what you'd pay from McMaster Carr. Shoot me a PM if you'd like.

If you have no PCV valves, you'll have too much of a vacuum on the crankcase, which is not good. You basically start pulling oil from places that need it, with too much vac.

You always want a bit of vac on the crankcase, since it can help ring seal. VTA can be used under very high boost conditions, where the system cannot evacuate pressures properly, since there is a very weak vac source at boost. I've been meaning to test VTA systems, but I'm holding off til I get a DISI in my van.

Originally Posted by BlueStreak I ran a gutted pcv off the crankcase>occ>cv>IM and while the engine had MAD crankcase vacuum (as evidenced by putting our thumbs on the VC vent) and ltfts were spot on, the idle went all wonky and lost about 2PSI IM vacuum according to the AP. Reverted back to a regular pcv the next day. I'm a bit confused here tho. From what I'm understanding, you're running IM>pcv>occ>pcv>cc correct? Matt says that this could be the cause of the oily intake and i agree this would have an effect under vacuum conditions. But what happens under boost when the valves close? Excess pressure would still come out the VC assuming blowby>inlet vacuum. EDIT: Added to paragraph 1. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

There will still be a bit of blow by, via the valve cover breather, under higher boost conditions. Higher boost = higher crankcase pressures, therefore more blow by.

[cld12pk2go]

Originally Posted by Dano @cld12pk2go runs the same boost at more airflow.. what say you? FML

Still on the stock PCV setup here at 25-26 PSI without any issues.

[Chimmike]

I'll tell you, I don't run a CC on the valve cover vent. It's been running with a breather filter for quite a while now.

However, I'll be finishing the OCC setup this weekend with a setup similar to MD's, pcv>OCC>cv>IM

[Tokay444]

Block off intake manifold.
Block of tip.
Run no pcv inline from block to catch can.
Run line from valve cover to catch can.
Vent catch can.
No un-metered air.
No boost in crank case, and no oil into intake tract.
Do that and see if you still have wet valves, we know it's in the head.

[RayRay]

Subbed for curiosity! This is basically the same thing I have been going through for a few months. My blow by seems to be on the exhaust side. (Spy Hunter Smoke Screen Mod!) I'm not running the second PCV, but I have checked and swapped everything else. We are pulling the valve cover next weekend. I have been noticing some serious valve train noise lately.
@Dano , do you have any smoking issues related to the excess oil? (You might have said it and I missed it)

[doubleflusher]

I had issues keeping my dipstick where it belongs, once I hit 28psi of boost.

I then tired down the dipstick until I put my MD OCC on.

So far so good.

I need to connect a MD OCC to my VC vent, since I noticed a thick mist of oil coming out of there on the dyno.

Maybe a boost actuated vacuum pump from the block to an OCC? Or will that be overkill?

[rfinkle2]

@SFWD 1934... I know that you are working on something and maybe would have some valuable input.

[Realgib3]

hmmm the amount of oil in the hotpipe makes me think turbo... but the fact the only cyl 1 had the fucked valve which makes me think valve seals lol.

btw my issue was that I was lifting the head under boost due to John @ ptp being a douche lol.

[Easter Bunny]

I would look at the valve guide. It would be to suspicious if blowby were only affecting one cylinder.

I know you were planning on doing a pop and drop since you will have the head off anyway it shouldn't be a whole lot more work to swap the valve guides.

Good luck.

Edit the thread title and me scared that I was going to see a picture of a blown engine. Glad that to are still running.

[NJSPEED3]

26-27psi seems to be the crank case pressure threshold for our cars.



To witness the dipstick dance watch this short clip of Doubleflusher's car (27th sec)


This is what I did to help alleviate more crank pressure under boost.

Tapped 4 holes 1/4" dia. to the baffle plate inside the valve cover. This helps venting the crank pressure out the valve cover breather under serious boost. The downside is you still blow out some oil. For this I run a catch can at the valve cover with an air breather on the outlet side. I've ran 30psi with no dipstick issues like this.

I also removed the stock pcv and ported it to the point where it was basically a 90 fitting to hook up a hose to. When we started the motor for the first time, I had the exact same issues Bluestreak mentioned above. We could of adjusting the maf to allow the pcv, I'm just not sure if its even worth doing all that. I went back to a new stock pcv>cv>occ>im.

Dano clean that valve up, find a way to vent more crank pressure if you wana play above 27psi.

Go back a week later and check the valve again, if the issue is still there you will know the valve guide is leaking.

[SFWD 1934]

@rfinkle2

Yes I have something coming. I am out of town for a birthday this weekend, but as I said before we have tested it out up to 60 PSI and all is nice. Keeps all the pressure off the block/oil pan so this does not happen.

Jason

[SilverDemon]

Hmmmm....I like the idea of blocking the intake mani off and just venting to atmosphere with the pcv deleted.

Again, my set up is a little more complicated, but running 31-32 psi and no dancing dipsticks or oil where it shouldn't be.

At minimum (as stated before) take out the second pcv and add a check valve. The oil in cylinder 1 is a little concerning though.....hope you get it sorted out soon!

[Dano]

yeah I think I am having two separate issues.

1) bad valve guide/seal on that one intake valve which had to get damaged when I cleaned the valves or was already AFU. Just guessing a piece of carbon got up in there but IDK really...don't don't know chit about that stuff...lol

BTW is there any way that pressure could be force up through the guide and be causing all this BS? I gotta believe that valve is opening and closing fast enough to not allow pressure in the IM/runner go past the seal but IDK.

2) too much pressure in the CC.

Since you can't just go to Napa or autozone to get a check valve I deleted the secondary PCV and buttoned things back up. I'll prab get with Matt and get one of his setups.

I cleaned all my IC piping...with B12 and it looks new now. IC didn't really look all that bad nor did the cold side of things. I will still VTA my VC with a breather and this will tell me if I am having turbo seal issues if oil continues to enter the intake tract. If oil does not get back in there then it was residual oil from the weeks with the VC connected to the intake/TIP

At least that sounds like a sound experiment.

Then there is still the possibility I will continue to overpressurize my CC so time will tell.

I don't want to change too many things at once so I will continue to run 25PSI and hope things get better with a CV. If not I will VTA my CC and eliminate my CatchCan.

The subbie guys VTA everything...valve cover, head, CC right to mother earth

[Haltech]

Well if your valve seals are toast, upgrade them...

Supertech Manganese Bronze Valve Guides

11.065 mm - OD
38mm - length

These only work with stock valves. Custom oversized valves can have bronze valve guides made to fit by the engine builder.

[TWOptSL0W]

Dano, Try capping off he nipple on the intake for the vc vent and running a hose from the vc breather right to the floor. It will drip oil there, but th oil won't make it's way into the intake. Also, as you drive, it will create a slight vacuum in that tube. You can use heater hose since there's not crazy vacuum and no boost

[MS6_Auburn_Fan]

At risk of sounding insulting but is there a chance that you forgot to clean that one valve on cylinder 1?

Also a leaky valve seal seems unlikely since you had 2% leak down across the board. If it was a leaky seal I would think the leakage would be slightly higher than the others.

[Tokay444]

A good leak down only points to good valve seats.

[Dano]

um...I was under the impression a leak down test would rule out 3 things

1)bent or bad valves or seats
2) ringland/rings
3) bent rod

If you get leakage you listen at the CC vent and if you get air its rod or rings.

if you get leakage you listen around the TB and if air is coming out there its is intake valves

if you get air coming out the EM its exhaust valves.

no?

Originally Posted by TWOptSL0W Dano, Try capping off he nipple on the intake for the vc vent and running a hose from the vc breather right to the floor. It will drip oil there, but th oil won't make it's way into the intake. Also, as you drive, it will create a slight vacuum in that tube. You can use heater hose since there's not crazy vacuum and no boost

I have removed the VC to IM connection and have a breather on the VC. I could run a hose at some point but I want to rule out turbo seals which my current setup should do.

[Tokay444]

If you leak past a valve seat, you've got the whole manifold to fill before you'll hear a leak at the seal. Path of least resistance.

[Dano]

Originally Posted by MS6_Auburn_Fan At risk of sounding insulting but is there a chance that you forgot to clean that one valve on cylinder 1? Also a leaky valve seal seems unlikely since you had 2% leak down across the board. If it was a leaky seal I would think the leakage would be slightly higher than the others.

I meant valve stem seal not valve seal and I am 100% sure all the valves were cleaned...lol

I cleaned 3 cylinders at once...can't remember which ones you can get all the intake valves closed at once on but yea all cleaned with B12 then media blasted afterward.

car is back together and I'll take her for a spin this afternoon and tomorrow with no WOT action and then pull the hot pipe and inspect.

Then do the same with some WOT runs and inspect again.

[Dano]

Originally Posted by Haltech Well if your valve seals are toast, upgrade them... Supertech Manganese Bronze Valve Guides 11.065 mm - OD 38mm - length These only work with stock valves. Custom oversized valves can have bronze valve guides made to fit by the engine builder.

god I don't want to go down that road ATM...I'll live with one bad valve till I throw some internals in.

[Dano]

Originally Posted by Tokay444 If you leak past a valve seat, you've got the whole manifold to fill before you'll hear a leak at the seal. Path of least resistance.

yes but you are pumping air into the cylinder rapidly and you will hear it coming out somewhere really fast...I had a couple that were not right at TDC and as soon as you hit the air it is obvious.

now determining exactly where the air is going is a different story. with our car I guess you would need to pull the TB to check the intake side of things since we are DBW.

pull the O2 or my EGT prob plug to check exhaust.

anyway I don't think I have any issues with valves/rings or rods but def too much CC pressure. Well I have an issue with one valve stem seal or guide but not seat.

[Dano]

Originally Posted by NJSPEED3 26-27psi seems to be the crank case pressure threshold for our cars. To witness the dipstick dance watch this short clip of Doubleflusher's car (27th sec) This is what I did to help alleviate more crank pressure under boost. Tapped 4 holes 1/4" dia. to the baffle plate inside the valve cover. This helps venting the crank pressure out the valve cover breather under serious boost. The downside is you still blow out some oil. For this I run a catch can at the valve cover with an air breather on the outlet side. I've ran 30psi with no dipstick issues like this. I also removed the stock pcv and ported it to the point where it was basically a 90 fitting to hook up a hose to. When we started the motor for the first time, I had the exact same issues Bluestreak mentioned above. We could of adjusting the maf to allow the pcv, I'm just not sure if its even worth doing all that. I went back to a new stock pcv>cv>occ>im. Dano clean that valve up, find a way to vent more crank pressure if you wana play above 27psi. Go back a week later and check the valve again, if the issue is still there you will know the valve guide is leaking.

awesome info man thanks....yeah I already threw the IM back on and didn't mess with the valve cuz I want to the the CC issue resolved first then I'll pull the IM again and clean them all again.

if the valve is AFU a second time, like you said, I need some head work FML. but that will wait until I do the internals.

BTW I found an 06 White MS6 with 100k+ miles here local I can pick up for 4500. They confirmed it drives and runs but admit cyl3 is low on compression....guessing a bent rod...all that to say I could get it and do a drop in build..get the 6 up and running then
actually pull the motor in the 3 and do a full build.

MS6 = 450 AWP DD
MS3 = track car

hum....wife would be none too happy about a car being parked in "her" garage for a few months all torn apart hahaha

...just walk away dan...just walk away...

[NJSPEED3]

Originally Posted by Dano awesome info man thanks....yeah I already threw the IM back on and didn't mess with the valve cuz I want to the the CC issue resolved first then I'll pull the IM again and clean them all again. if the valve is AFU a second time, like you said, I need some head work FML. but that will wait until I do the internals. BTW I found an 06 White MS6 with 100k+ miles here local I can pick up for 4500. They confirmed it drives and runs but admit cyl3 is low on compression....guessing a bent rod...all that to say I could get it and do a drop in build..get the 6 up and running then actually pull the motor in the 3 and do a full build. MS6 = 450 AWP DD MS3 = track car hum....wife would be none too happy about a car being parked in "her" garage for a few months all torn apart hahaha ...just walk away dan...just walk away...

Well after that post I cant say I feel bad for you anymore Sir. You are about to turn a bad thing into a super awesome thing.

Get that 6!!

[Ziggo]

Originally Posted by NJSPEED3 Get that 6!!

+1

[btstarcher]

Where is the 6?