How bad is this-Oil everywhere

[Haltech]

Originally Posted by Dano god I don't want to go down that road ATM...I'll live with one bad valve till I throw some internals in.

Just throwing that out there for others who are headed to rebuild land or are having issues with their stock guides. Bronze is the only way to go when the time comes

[Dano]

Originally Posted by btstarcher Where is the 6?

not telling u






















if I pass on it I'll tell you lol

may go out Monday to take a look.

Originally Posted by Haltech Just throwing that out there for others who are headed to rebuild land or are having issues with their stock guides. Bronze is the only way to go when the time comes

roger that...good to know

[btstarcher]

Awww man it's not like that; I was just gonna look it over for ya!

[djuosnteisn]

Originally Posted by TWOptSL0W Dano, Try capping off he nipple on the intake for the vc vent and running a hose from the vc breather right to the floor. It will drip oil there, but th oil won't make it's way into the intake. Also, as you drive, it will create a slight vacuum in that tube. You can use heater hose since there's not crazy vacuum and no boost

You want to put a filter on that hose so you don't suck in any dirt. If the cc side of things is hooked up to the IM, then you have positive flow through the block, and air going into the vc. If it's not filtered, you can potentially suck in dirt and quickly damage your motor.


If you wanna run "drag tubes", you need to do it on both ends, the cc and vc (blocking the IM port for the cc, and TIP port for the vc). Only then will they both be constantly "venting", and none "sucking".

[Dano]

yes with the IM connected to the CC you are pulling in unmettered air via the VC but it doesn't throw trims off by much.

I think guys have had trouble with trims when they vent everything. it was posted earlier in this thread. I think BlueStreak and someone else eliminated the PCV and blocked off the IM port and VTAed the CC and VC but trims were a problem.

on the otherhand I think Scott is running something similar with no trouble but he didn't' go into detail and I don't know how he's setup.

[djuosnteisn]

I vent everything and trims are fine, nothing but tubes coming off my motor in both locations, you can see my vc tube in this pic (sorry for the ginormo-pic, i just pulled it off my site):




Bluestreak said he removed the PCV and hooked it up to the IM (like stock, minus PCV), and had LOTS of issues.

The purpose of the PCV is to limit airflow. It's like a coffee straw, limiting how much the IM can suck out of the cc. While there may be some pcv's that allow more flow (and might be good to run in our cars), getting rid of it entirely is a bad idea.


Scott's running a slash cut setup into his exhaust last i read, but that was years ago. He may have changed it by now, not sure.



I think your right in that you may be having 2 separate issues. First thing to do is find the source of oil in your intake and hot pipe. Is it the turbo, or is it the VC vent. You said compression is good and leak down is good... so i find it hard to believe going from 22 psi to 25 psi exponentially increased your blow by. Lots of people are running 25 psi without the issues you're seeing.


I like the idea of putting a filter on the vc port. If that eliminates the oil on the intake and hot pipe, voila, maybe you actually do have a cc pressure issue. If it doesn't, we can turn our heads to the turbo seals.

[Dano]

Exactly my thoughts. No oil=CC pressure

Oil=turbo seals.




Tappin

[SilverDemon]

No, nothing has changed on my personal set up. Still running the slash cut exhaust venturi, stock PCV, and check valves...Still chugging along just fine, no issues with trims.

[djuosnteisn]

"Chugging along" is a very slow sounding way to put it... and quite inaccurate.

[Dano]

So experiment one completed with success.

Setup changed to remove 2nd PCV from the CC to IM connection and VC is still VTA.

PT to mild boost application netted zero oil in the IC piping. I think this rules out any excessive oil getting past the turbo seals. Probably put about 40 miles on the car.

up next...time for fun and see what happens at WOT.

I also have a MD CV on the way to arrive Thursday via Driver311s old MD kit and I will install the CV on the IM connection then. I'll throw the CC onto the VC and VTA the other side just to catch any oil and see if it is still spitting out oil. Right now I still have the oil saturated filter on there so there is no way to tell if CC pressure is still excessive. IDK I might run a tube into a gator-aid bottle or something else that will catch oil before I start the WOT operations.



if I get no oil out the VC anymore I'll run VC>CC>Intake again and see how that works out.

[djuosnteisn]

You'll be "boosting" the OCC without a pcv or check valve, so just be careful. I know you have one between the OCC and the CC, but you'll still have XX psi in the OCC. That's why a second pcv or cv is placed there. I would maybe wait til the new cv shows up before doing too much boost.

[Dano]

oh I am setup like this now

CC>PCV>OCC>IM

I will add the CV here

CC>PCV>OCC>CV>IM

edit:

got cha....will wait till Thursday before having fun

[Tokay444]

Yes.
I want to put a catch can on my valve cover just to stay in line with 'most' of our emmisions laws.

[Dano]

So I thought I'd update with my current status.

With the 2nd PCV removed and MD CV in place on the CC, VC VTA, I was not seeing any oil in my IC piping, so turbo seals are good and all the oil was indeed blowby.

So I added an OCC to my VC an VTAed the other side which turned out looking like this.







The bad news, I guess, is that after only about 10 WOT runs I got about 1/4 cup of oil out of the OCC. To me, coming from zero blowby before, that seems like quite a lot of oil being pushed out of the VC.

I am going to re-tune back to 22PSI [down from 25.5], run the car enough to get any remaining oil out of the line and see if the blowby continues. If it does then I have caused some permanent damage somewhere although compression and leakdown test don't indicate this.

anybody think that one bad looking valve could be the entire source of all the pressure in the VC? I mean if the guide and/or seal are gone then every time the valve is closed the IM pressure is being forced up through there, right? Just not sure that the split second(s) that this is occurring that it would leak that much pressure but I suppose 25 PSI is going somewhere.

[djuosnteisn]

You could try pulling the VC off, and pressure testing the IM. If the seal was letting boost past the valve stem into the VC, it'd definitely cause some issues i would think.

So weird for this to have just suddenly happened.

[Dano]

yessir it is....gonna be kind hard to pressureize the IM and have everything sealed though...no exhaust valves open while intake valves are open. If I can figure that out I could fab up a fitting for my leakdown tester to connect it to the IM and know fo sho how much was leaking bast that guide/seal.

I would def need that bad cylinders intake valves closed to get the best results.

ideas?

[djuosnteisn]

You can just spin the crank to a point where there's no valve overlap. I have a feeling it's pretty unlikely that a motor will stop in an overlap state when you shut it down. Just seems unlikely. And if an intake valve is open, as long as the exh valve is closed, you'll only have to contend with pressure leaking past the rings (which would then probably come up and out of the timing cover). I bet you'd be able to simply hear a leak on one of the valve seals, if indeed there was one, even with air coming out of the timing cover.

You could pressurize at the throttle body even.

[Dano]

Just plotted 2 old logs from back in June when everything was working fine vs 2 logs from this Saturday. AMB temp in June was in the 90s and this Sat was 75.

you can see that I am 1-2 PSI down for the majority of the pull and logged WGDC is the same, as well as riding the ramp limit so it can't add anymore.

I have a leak somewhere and it just might be that valve guide fuck me!

time to leak test the intake tract then tackle the IM.

[Realgib3]

It pains me to see someone else going through a goofy, hard to diagnose issue like this. Hopefully it's just a valve issue, seal would obviously be the best case since you can fairly easily change it in the car. Guide, I'm not sure...

[Dano]

Welp...I think I just might be down to the bottom of things. I rigged up my home made pressure test kit to my intake, attached a leakdown tester just in case the leakage was minimal....lets just say the tester was not necessary...lol

Here is what it looked like:



so when I got started it immediately started leaking down like a mofo and was coming out of my newly installed OCC vent. So I routed my VC back into my intake so I could then go over to the oil cap and have a listen....

The results were not good. I had the PSI set to 30 and the differential gauge was showing basically 100% leakage and you can hear the air rushing out of the oil cap hole.

put my hand over it to stop the leakage and let it build a lil and pow when I removed my hand.

So there you have it...that #1 cylinder intake valve looked like chit for a reason and I guess I have to attribute the seal/guide damage to my valve cleaning process. IDK what could have caused it but guess a piece of hardened carbon ruined things.

now the question for the class... is it the seal or the guide that is fubared or both?

I don't know jack about this stuff but I got to believe the seal can't get damaged unless the guide took the brunt of it first.

So in the end, it's time for my drop in build I suppose b/c I aint pulling a head without doing at least the drop in forged goodies and timing chain/VVT replacement.

This leakage def explains my 2PSI boost drop and all the oil coming from the VC....guess the GTX will have to wait.

if I am totally off base on the diagnosis please chime in and save me from my despair.

[phate]

You have to pull the head either way, at this point. If you're pulling it all apart, you'll replace all the seals, and you should have all valves and guides checked. Valve job, if necessary

[Realgib3]

I would lean towards guide, just because when I changed my seals for a related issue, it didn't help. Obviously that's not a great explanation... but that's what I got lol

Ironic thing is, my issue got way worse pretty much right after a seafoam session(essentially valve cleaning). Always used it before though with no issues, but this time it definitely got worse after. Since Pablo hasn't diagnosed my motor's issue 100% yet, idk, maybe this could be related, maybe not at all.

[Dano]

Originally Posted by phate You have to pull the head either way, at this point. If you're pulling it all apart, you'll replace all the seals, and you should have all valves and guides checked. Valve job, if necessary

yeah...I kinda figured the head has to come off....time to start rounding up parts

[Haltech]

Well, if you get really good exhaust scavenging from that Stainless Steel manifold, it will indeed destroy your valve seats. That's how you know you have a good header on the car I had the same problem with one of my mustangs and long tube headers.

Time to install bronze valve guides.

[Realgib3]

Originally Posted by Dano yeah...I kinda figured the head has to come off....time to start rounding up parts

You can do seals with the head on, just need a leakdown tester, which you already have.

Don't even have to pull the timing cover actually.

Pull VC,
Lock Timing chain tensioner in place through blind plug hole
remove cam(s)
Pressurize cylinder you're working on
remove valve tappet, retainer, spring
replace valve seal
put spring, retainer, tappet back
move to next cylinder and repeat
reinstall cam(s)
release timing chain tensioner
reinstall VC

Drink beer. That's the short version, but you get the idea

[Dano]

Originally Posted by Realgib3 You can do seals with the head on, just need a leakdown tester, which you already have. Don't even have to pull the timing cover actually. Pull VC, Lock Timing chain tensioner in place through blind plug hole remove cam(s) Pressurize cylinder you're working on remove valve tappet, retainer, spring replace valve seal put spring, retainer, tappet back move to next cylinder and repeat reinstall cam(s) release timing chain tensioner reinstall VC Drink beer. That's the short version, but you get the idea

yeah man I might give that a try but in my mind it seems the guide was allowing more pressure or maybe a piece of carbon to get up into the seal and destroy it. I don't know what holds the pressure back the seal or the guide or both...lol

[Realgib3]

Originally Posted by Dano yeah man I might give that a try but in my mind it seems the guide was allowing more pressure or maybe a piece of carbon to get up into the seal and destroy it. I don't know what holds the pressure back the seal or the guide or both...lol

I agree with you unfortunately. Again, I changed my seals and no dice. IMO seals lead to smoke because SOME oil gets through, guides lead to presssssure, but I will let someone much smarter than I figure that out for sure.

Either way good luck and if you need any tips, let me know as I've had my valves in and out 234234523523 times

[x09MS3GT]

Well im just glad everyone pulled together and helped you figure this nightmare out. This is one of those moments where i would say this forums owns. All other bullshit and high school fuck around put aside, when shit happens, the smart guys chime in, and shit gets sorted out.

Good read. Now fix that shit.

[Dano]

Originally Posted by Haltech Well, if you get really good exhaust scavenging from that Stainless Steel manifold, it will indeed destroy your valve seats. That's how you know you have a good header on the car I had the same problem with one of my mustangs and long tube headers. Time to install bronze valve guides.

BTW my SS EM is actually a SteedSpeed EM not stainless steel.

yeah I think it's time to get some head work done although I don't think the seats are the issue as evidenced by the excellent cylinder leakdown and compression test results....its all in the guide and/or seal in that one cylinder.

[Lex]

Valve guides are the ones that prevent excessive pressure to enter the crankcase via the top of the valves.

The seals prevent oil from coming down the valve stem. Bad seals are the ones that show up as blue smoke on startup in the morning and during engine braking. So the seals are not the ones to replace if indeed a guide is so done that pressure is escaping past it.

Dan, on the last test when you had all the pressure coming out the valve cover, are you sure it was entering the motor via valve guides and not somewhere else? The valve cover area is linked to the crankcase as you know.

[rodrigo]

no need to guess shit dano , pull the head and check the guides see if they are within spec (shit u wanna go jew K line the motherfuckers its cents on the dollar) , doubtful your seats are experiencing shit , u can actually tell by looking at the face of the valves ..... either way , if u have the means why not do a freshen up of the head .

but some of what u experienced i experienced myself with my car , but eventually the rings gave out and the #3 spark plug apparently doesnt like to swim in oil

good luck


p.s. and lol ya , valve seals only scrape 99% of the valve stem and allow just enough oil to lube the stem but not enough to make it to the combustion chamber .

[Dano]

Originally Posted by Lex Valve guides are the ones that prevent excessive pressure to enter the crankcase via the top of the valves. The seals prevent oil from coming down the valve stem. Bad seals are the ones that show up as blue smoke on startup in the morning and during engine braking. So the seals are not the ones to replace if indeed a guide is so done that pressure is escaping past it. Dan, on the last test when you had all the pressure coming out the valve cover, are you sure it was entering the motor via valve guides and not somewhere else? The valve cover area is linked to the crankcase as you know.

PCV held 40 PSI when I checked it last week and I have since added a MD check valve so unless I am missing something the pressure could only get in there past the guide.

Rings of course could be a cause but my leakdown was zero to maybe 1-2% across the board and compression is in the 185-187 range across the board.

This coupled with the oily valve leads me to believe both the guide and seal are toast.

if this proves out then there is something for everyone to think about on the valve cleaning procedure.

I started out with B12 and the wire brush method before I went to the walnut media blast. In hindsight I think the wire brush method is a bad idea and perhaps B12 and media blast alone should be used IF you are even going that route. It could be that a bristle got logged up in the top of the runner around the guide and caused the issue. Don't know if the carbon is hard enough to cause it alone.

Originally Posted by rodrigo no need to guess shit dano , pull the head and check the guides see if they are within spec (shit u wanna go jew K line the motherfuckers its cents on the dollar) , doubtful your seats are experiencing shit , u can actually tell by looking at the face of the valves ..... either way , if u have the means why not do a freshen up of the head . but some of what u experienced i experienced myself with my car , but eventually the rings gave out and the #3 spark plug apparently doesnt like to swim in oil good luck p.s. and lol ya , valve seals only scrape 99% of the valve stem and allow just enough oil to lube the stem but not enough to make it to the combustion chamber .

holy shit....you are still out there....lol


yeah man I think the seats are great judging from my leakdown. I only have one valve that looks like an oily mess so that guide/seal system is toast.

I will get the head worked and drop in some forged internals without pulling the motor.

at least that's my plan ATM

[rodrigo]

the problem is that these pieces of shit suck in so much oil from the intake that u really cant tell where the fucken oil came from , as far as the seals , ...... unless the seals have gotten so complex that its out of my experience , u can replace the fuckers with the head on , just pressurize the chamber to keep valves closed and press them in , of course u gotta have the tools and equipment to do this and take out and put back in the fucken springs etc .....

best way is to mic the stems, dial gauge the guides and see if u within spec , other than that u are just guessing .

and no , im not around anymore lol

[Dano]

yeah my first step was to remove the VC to Intake connection which eliminated the oil in my intake tract. In 4K miles all my freshly cleaned valves looked like new so I think the OCC at the CC connection is doing its job. Well all but the one.

Alex mentioned that if the guide is leaking that much pressure it typically wouldn't seat properly and you might be able to wiggle it from above.

I am going to get it warmed up tomorrow and do the leakdown and compression test again. Things may be getting progressively worse rapidly in that valve area.

yeah I could do seals but Mark went through that to no avail...I was already tentatively planning a pop n drop build so this just accelerates that plan.

good to see that you are still not around...

[Lex]

Originally Posted by Dano yeah my first step was to remove the VC to Intake connection which eliminated the oil in my intake tract. In 4K miles all my freshly cleaned valves looked like new so I think the OCC at the CC connection is doing its job. Well all but the one. Alex mentioned that if the guide is leaking that much pressure it typically wouldn't seat properly and you might be able to wiggle it from above. I am going to get it warmed up tomorrow and do the leakdown and compression test again. Things may be getting progressively worse rapidly in that valve area. yeah I could do seals but Mark went through that to no avail...I was already tentatively planning a pop n drop build so this just accelerates that plan. good to see that you are still not around...

Once you just have the valve in the guide and spring off you might be able to "feel" the difference if it was really bad. This made me think of something else. You already have the compressor on the intake - why not pull the valve cover off and see if indeed it's coming through the suspect valve?

[rodrigo]

Originally Posted by Dano yeah my first step was to remove the VC to Intake connection which eliminated the oil in my intake tract. In 4K miles all my freshly cleaned valves looked like new so I think the OCC at the CC connection is doing its job. Well all but the one. Alex mentioned that if the guide is leaking that much pressure it typically wouldn't seat properly and you might be able to wiggle it from above. I am going to get it warmed up tomorrow and do the leakdown and compression test again. Things may be getting progressively worse rapidly in that valve area. yeah I could do seals but Mark went through that to no avail...I was already tentatively planning a pop n drop build so this just accelerates that plan. good to see that you are still not around...

i doubt u will feel any lateral movement of the valve within the guide but knock yourself out , when tolerances are off we are talking about .001-3 " off .... thats about the diameter or a hair lol

the seals u should be able to tell from a visual inspection , idk what kind we have , if they are positive seals or something relevant once they come out they are damaged for good , if they are the umbrella type rubber ones then w/e .....but thats like not replacing gaskets lol

when u take out the valves look primarily at the top and the bottom of the stem where it resides inside the guide, any guide that is suspect will leave traces on the ends of the stem .

u know what , just be happy u dont own my motor . kaput

[Tokay444]

And don't beat yourself up over causing this by cleaning.
It happens all on its own.
It wasn't you @Dano.

[Dano]

Originally Posted by Lex Once you just have the valve in the guide and spring off you might be able to "feel" the difference if it was really bad. This made me think of something else. You already have the compressor on the intake - why not pull the valve cover off and see if indeed it's coming through the suspect valve?

yes Dustin said the same thing and before I go balls deep in this I will...I was just out in my shop testing the intake tract and just kept going with a quick diag.

And I do blame myself for putting a wire brush in my cylinder head....it was just all the craze back a few months ago and although you may do that 100 times without issue...well it only takes once, and in my case only one valve, so far, that will lead to a ton of work.

I do feel confident media blast alone will be ok since BMW and Mazda both do it as a service. I suspect every DI OEM will have to resort to this type of cleaning unless they are a hybrid PI/DI setup or just VTA their emissions...and that aint gonna happen.

Originally Posted by Realgib3 I would lean towards guide, just because when I changed my seals for a related issue, it didn't help. Obviously that's not a great explanation... but that's what I got lol Ironic thing is, my issue got way worse pretty much right after a seafoam session(essentially valve cleaning). Always used it before though with no issues, but this time it definitely got worse after. Since Pablo hasn't diagnosed my motor's issue 100% yet, idk, maybe this could be related, maybe not at all.

ya know, I do go back to thinking the cleaning, no matter if its seafoam or something more aggressive, that its knocking some carbon lose that is getting up into the guide and causing all of this. there is that little "pocket" in the top of the runner that the valve comes down through and I can tell you it was full of gunk.

IDK time will tell

[Tokay444]

I'm almost certain I have this same issues on cylinders two and three, and I've never had the manifold off.
It's just coinsidence man.

[Dano]

I don't totally disagree but it is extremely coincidental for this to happen a month after I cleaned the valves whereas before I had zero blow by out of my VC for 55K miles.

Yes I added 3 PSI of boost after the cleaning and if the guide was already suspect the PSI increase just pushed it over the edge. The guide held the extra pressure for at least a few weeks, maybe a month but the time line is not precise.

this does indeed beat a thrown rod.

I am going to re-do my leakdown and comp check tonight as well as pull the VC and try to find out exactly where the air is coming from.