Kaboom! options for a new block.. and rotating assembly?

[SpdFreak]

Originally Posted by bf360 114 punk sorry about the motor but were you wot when you blew? no fp internals ftllll

His oil line attached to the turbo leaked oil and the low oil spun the bearing.

[bf360]

Originally Posted by SpdFreak His oil line attached to the turbo leaked oil and the low oil spun the bearing.

meant the guy that blew in this thread not phil

[Thestaplegunkid]

Sorry guys I'm going back on shift this morning (12.5 hour days) So I won't have any updates until monday.

BS was in tact.

I may have been near WOT.... it's blurry.... such a painful memory

[jmhinkle]

Originally Posted by Lex If you will, please explain in engineering terms, how will a rotating assembly (the BS) no longer attached to the motor cause the motor to fail catastrophically? If there was any worth to the BSD theory, it was that it caused the motor to bind or lock up. This could clearly only be done with the BS still attached. Please don't use a single car's success or aversion to blowing up to determine the cause of it not failing. By the same token there are lots of vehicles with the BS assembly still attached that have not "popped" Statistically there are a lot fewer vehicles that have removed the BS and therefore a lot fewer (overall) from this smaller subset will fail.

First, your question makes no sense. I have no idea what you are asking, or why, when you type a question like "how will a rotating assembly (the BS) no longer attached to the motor cause the motor to fail catastophically. Uhhhhhhhhhhh what? Who said that the BS sitting in the floor of your garage would cause the motor to fail? Try restating your question is the correct format for what you want answered.

Secondly, once you get the right question posted, why would I answer it (in laymans or engineering terms)? There is absolutely no point in it at all for you or me. As I said it's all been discussed before and just like any dyno sheet posted or track times posted, everyone picks a side they want to be on and sticks to it. You want to believe the BS causes no harm, I 100% disagree. That's what matters.

Unfortunately for your side, as of right now, there are no motors that have had the BSD done prior to modding the piss out of them that have popped. ZERO! There are plenty of popped motors with the BS still in and there is one and maybe one more, that built up first, ran the piss out of them and then decided to do the BSD and suffered zoom zoom boom. Sorry, but damage was done prior to that. No one, including me, has ever said the BSD saves the engine after the damage is done. That would be an ignorant statement to make.

[Deadman]

+1^

[Speed3FTW]

If the BS is indeed causing motors to pop, why does Mazda continue to include it in new models since it came out in 07? I haven't heard of it being reworked at all in 07-09 models, or in the upcoming 2010 model.

Most likely, Mazda hasn't found the BS being the cause of failure in their analysis.

The only alternative is that they know it is a problem, but continue to install it anyway because the cost of replacing these motors under warranty is cheaper than issuing a full recall of all speeds for it to be reworked or deleted. This would be Fed up if true. Their cost analysis mandates that they continue to install a possibly catastrophic component on our cars, resulting in financial headaches if it happens out of warranty...or worse...causing a major accident.

[VTEC_EATER]

Why do you guys blame these engine failures on stupid things like knock, or the balance shaft, or whatever? If it were those things, you would see engines failing in all different places. Melted pistons, spun bearings, etc.

Look at what keeps blowing on these motors. The rods.

Face it, the rods are the weakest link in this engine. Its not the knock, its not the balance shaft. Its the rods.

Has anyone on any of these forums ever thought that a good performance upgrade would be a rod replacement? Not an entire motor build, but just replacing the rods. Anyone?

[802MS3]

Originally Posted by VTEC_EATER Why do you guys blame these engine failures on stupid things like knock, or the balance shaft, or whatever? If it were those things, you would see engines failing in all different places. Melted pistons, spun bearings, etc. Look at what keeps blowing on these motors. The rods. Face it, the rods are the weakest link in this engine. Its not the knock, its not the balance shaft. Its the rods. Has anyone on any of these forums ever thought that a good performance upgrade would be a rod replacement? Not an entire motor build, but just replacing the rods. Anyone?

Its been discussed...

http://www.mazdaspeedforums.org/foru...placement.html

[Darksun280]

Originally Posted by VTEC_EATER Why do you guys blame these engine failures on stupid things like knock, or the balance shaft, or whatever? If it were those things, you would see engines failing in all different places. Melted pistons, spun bearings, etc. Look at what keeps blowing on these motors. The rods. Face it, the rods are the weakest link in this engine. Its not the knock, its not the balance shaft. Its the rods. Has anyone on any of these forums ever thought that a good performance upgrade would be a rod replacement? Not an entire motor build, but just replacing the rods. Anyone?

No you came onto these forums and on your 22nd post schooled us all with your mad abundant knowledge yo!

[bf360]

Originally Posted by VTEC_EATER Why do you guys blame these engine failures on stupid things like knock, or the balance shaft, or whatever? If it were those things, you would see engines failing in all different places. Melted pistons, spun bearings, etc. Look at what keeps blowing on these motors. The rods. Face it, the rods are the weakest link in this engine. Its not the knock, its not the balance shaft. Its the rods. Has anyone on any of these forums ever thought that a good performance upgrade would be a rod replacement? Not an entire motor build, but just replacing the rods. Anyone?

15:1 a/f and 5-10 psi of boost at part throttle isnt a stupid thing its a problem

[oskinosmee]

Can we call this car THE NEW SCHOOL DSM? lol
Sorry to those who blew tho it sucks i know.

[g-love]

to all BSD fanboyz -
i was wondering if people were running A/C, headlights and wipers at the time that the engine blew. if 100% of people did NOT have their wipers on when the engine blew, we would know that running the wipers would have prevented their misfortunes....

.... hides

[94jedi]

Originally Posted by VTEC_EATER Why do you guys blame these engine failures on stupid things like knock, or the balance shaft, or whatever? If it were those things, you would see engines failing in all different places. Melted pistons, spun bearings, etc. Look at what keeps blowing on these motors. The rods. Face it, the rods are the weakest link in this engine. Its not the knock, its not the balance shaft. Its the rods. Has anyone on any of these forums ever thought that a good performance upgrade would be a rod replacement? Not an entire motor build, but just replacing the rods. Anyone?

I still don't buy the rod issue completely. Why is it that these engine's don't blow at WOT when stresses are greatest? They blow at part throttle, light boost, going up hills in 4th. Sounds like metal fatigue or something...

[VTEC_EATER]

Originally Posted by bf360 15:1 a/f and 5-10 psi of boost at part throttle isnt a stupid thing its a problem

Hmm... Stock engine seems to run just fine like that. And now that ATR is out, what are you bitching about? Make your own custom map.

What is stupid is that many believe that their 4 cyl. motor should be able to make a reliable 400 whp and run all day on its stock block. You have to be delusional to think that should be the case. How many 4.6L V8's do you see running a reliable 800whp on a stock block?

Even if you do build the motor, 400whp on a 4cyl engine is a hell of a lot of stress. Even with forged parts I wouldn't consider the engine to be a safe and reliable. Hell race teams tear apart motors every season, and sometimes every race, to check for worn parts. What kind of power levels are they running? 400-500 whp?

Too many people have Fast and the Furious syndrome thinking that their 2.0L with a GT35 should make 500 whp, and if it doesn't its weak. Get real people.

[VTEC_EATER]

Originally Posted by Darksun280 No you came onto these forums and on your 22nd post schooled us all with your mad abundant knowledge yo!

I suppose post count equals total cumulative knowledge of automobiles in your mind? Maybe I should just spam all the threads on the forum so my post count can go up and you can take what I say more seriously...

[bf360]

Originally Posted by VTEC_EATER Hmm... Stock engine seems to run just fine like that. And now that ATR is out, what are you bitching about? Make your own custom map. What is stupid is that many believe that their 4 cyl. motor should be able to make a reliable 400 whp and run all day on its stock block. You have to be delusional to think that should be the case. How many 4.6L V8's do you see running a reliable 800whp on a stock block? Even if you do build the motor, 400whp on a 4cyl engine is a hell of a lot of stress. Even with forged parts I wouldn't consider the engine to be a safe and reliable. Hell race teams tear apart motors every season, and sometimes every race, to check for worn parts. What kind of power levels are they running? 400-500 whp? Too many people have Fast and the Furious syndrome thinking that their 2.0L with a GT35 should make 500 whp, and if it doesn't its weak. Get real people.

wow what 4cyl engines have you worked with you sound like a typical muscle car clown who thinks he knows it all

So what about all the evos 500whp on stock block and ive seen over 600whp stock block

what about the sti's 400whp stock block and up

what about the srt4's with 400-500whp stock block

new caliber over 500whp stock block

new evos are all easily 350-450whp stock block

our motors are forged btw so i think it can handle the power tuning aspects aside

how about all the k series motors which are stout as hell and were designed as a 200hp n/a motor stock but some push over 400whp stock block

[Darksun280]

Originally Posted by VTEC_EATER I suppose post count equals total cumulative knowledge of automobiles in your mind? Maybe I should just spam all the threads on the forum so my post count can go up and you can take what I say more seriously...

No joining a car forum and creating a user name makes you an automatic automobile master. Uping your post count just makes everyone pay what you say anymind.

[oskinosmee]

Oh snaps this is getting good

VTEC_EATER sounds like a typical V8 older guy!!!!

[Lex]

First of all, jmhinkle, I apologize for not being clear. Let me break it down for you. Tell me HOW the BS assembly breaks the engine. Then tell me how it still breaks the engine after it has been removed? Is that clear for you? You are linking not blowing up with the BSD modification without have any solid proof that they should be linked. Period.

There is some truth to a lot that was said here. The first thing that people must understand is that detonation causes damage to piston tops before rods let go. Our sensors are so sensitive we don't even HEAR the detonation they pick up. Do most people here even know what knock sounds like by ear? You can hear it for extended periods of time before it causes damage to pistons.

Secondly, all these Evos and STIs and SRT4s .... how many are pushing 400-500 whp RELIABLY? For how long? 40k miles? 60k miles? How many of those cars have been built and have blown up before a handful of people make those numbers and for how long? So yes, as you get up there, the stock bottom end will start letting go - I've said this before - 50% above stock power and you're playing with fire. You may be lucky or you may not be.

Lastly, every motor has flaws. The further you push it, the faster they will come out of the woodwork. Some will let go earlier than others. The fact that these motors let go at low loads may indicate there is some flaw with them. Maybe it's an engineering flaw or a manufacturing flaw. It may also indicate the components fatigue or that some rods have imperfections when they are forged. There isn't a single answer for this and it may take time and more blown engines to get more answers.

Be sensible when you mod, know the limitations, and be prepared to pay if you push the envelope. But don't make up bs like "my balance shaft blew my motor after it was removed."

[bf360]

I agree completely with what lex said most don't last that many miles because if your buidling a car like that its most likely not your daily, the bs still isn't clear to me either how it is going to save a motor but I really think most of the blown motors are from the damage from the knock and heat

[VTEC_EATER]

Originally Posted by oskinosmee Oh snaps this is getting good VTEC_EATER sounds like a typical V8 older guy!!!!

I'm not actually. Ive owned 4 cyl turbo cars for most my life. I had a 66 Mustang with a 289 that I rebuilt, but that's my experience with V8's. I'm just a realist.

You guys are under some belief that all 4cyl engines should handle 400 whp with ease. Slap on some bolt-ons, up the boost, get a tune, and you will be running 10's. It is not that easy. And it is certainly not a reliable engine. If it were, there would be manufacturers that make 400 whp 4cyl cars for the masses. But they don't.

Just because an EVO or an STI can make 400 whp on a stock block does not mean that all turbo 4 engines can make 400 whp on a stock block. Have any of you disassembled an EVO or STI engine and compared it to the DISI engine? They are built significantly more stout than ours. Maybe that extra $10,000 went into their drivetrain? We certainly know it didn't go into the interiors.

Seriously the weak link in these engines are the rods. How many people have dropped a valve? How many have experienced crankwalk? How many have spun bearings? Anyone blow holes in their pistons yet from detonation? I'm pretty sure we have enough proof to say that 90% of all blown DISI motors threw a rod out of the engine.

There is obviously a pattern here. Why not upgrade your rods (fine, do your pistons at the same time if you want to) instead of getting some lightweight $2000 ballin' JDM rimz, yo! It seems like the smarter solution.

[94jedi]

Originally Posted by VTEC_EATER I'm not actually. Ive owned 4 cyl turbo cars for most my life. I had a 66 Mustang with a 289 that I rebuilt, but that's my experience with V8's. I'm just a realist. You guys are under some belief that all 4cyl engines should handle 400 whp with ease. Slap on some bolt-ons, up the boost, get a tune, and you will be running 10's. It is not that easy. And it is certainly not a reliable engine. If it were, there would be manufacturers that make 400 whp 4cyl cars for the masses. But they don't. Just because an EVO or an STI can make 400 whp on a stock block does not mean that all turbo 4 engines can make 400 whp on a stock block. Have any of you disassembled an EVO or STI engine and compared it to the DISI engine? They are built significantly more stout than ours. Maybe that extra $10,000 went into their drivetrain? We certainly know it didn't go into the interiors. Seriously the weak link in these engines are the rods. How many people have dropped a valve? How many have experienced crankwalk? How many have spun bearings? Anyone blow holes in their pistons yet from detonation? I'm pretty sure we have enough proof to say that 90% of all blown DISI motors threw a rod out of the engine. There is obviously a pattern here. Why not upgrade your rods (fine, do your pistons at the same time if you want to) instead of getting some lightweight $2000 ballin' JDM rimz, yo! It seems like the smarter solution.

I'll agree w/ the last part. If I were going to build this engine on a budget, I'd do rods and that's it. We're getting detonation all over the place but I don't see any evidence of it on the pistons tops.


As for spun bearings, Darksun280 took care of that condition for us lol.

[Speed3FTW]

The bottom line is, we do not have enough data to make a solid hypothesis as to why some people pop their motors under similar low load conditions. Educated guesses are helpful, but I think they mislead a lot of people into performing mods that are unnecessary and unlikely to solve the problem. Its like shooting in the dark...well, more like shooting at night with only the moon's light.

The only party that does have the data is Mazda, who has put in a substantial amount of time, money and knowledge into finding the cause of these motor failures compared to what we have available to us. I wish it were required by law for them to release this information so people wouldn't be taking unnecessary measures to give themselves a (probably false) sense of security. They should at least release which parts they have changed or modified from model year to model year.

I know this isn't helpful, and hopefully the good people looking into this matter find the answers for us quickly. I just feel that as long as your logs look good, I don't really see what else can be done until firm proof of a systematic flaw in our engine is discovered.

[martyxattack]

all the cars that are blowing are pushing like 50 more hp at most on most of them. technology must have come pretty far for the cost cutters at mazda to have been able to build a rod that only has a tolerance of 240hp and thats it.

[bf360]

What's the point of opening up the engine to put in rods when we canr make enough power as it is, look at all the cars that were right around 350whp or more and I an only think of one that blew up part throttle randy and one that blew at wot but he had a lot of miles on his setup, our motors can take 350 whp we jus need to get it down in the pt tuning part

[djuosnteisn]

Originally Posted by bf360 What's the point of opening up the engine to put in rods when we canr make enough power as it is, look at all the cars that were right around 35whp or more and I an only think of one that blew up part throttle randy and one that blew at wot but he had a lot of miles on his setup, our motors can take 350 whp we jus need to get it down in the pt tuning part

This is the song i've been singing for a while. Our cars seem happy as a clam at WOT, but it's the part throttle bs that kills em. I find it hard to believe the whole "the motor was already weakened from all the high HP and just decided to let go pulling away from a stop light" If all that high hp wot was weakening the motor, we'd see more motors letting go at high hp wot.

I vote design flaw, hopefully solvable with ATR, but as of right now the ecu seems to be out smarting us, hahaha.

[Darksun280]

Originally Posted by djuosnteisn This is the song i've been singing for a while. Our cars seem happy as a clam at WOT, but it's the part throttle bs that kills em. I find it hard to believe the whole "the motor was already weakened from all the high HP and just decided to let go pulling away from a stop light" If all that high hp wot was weakening the motor, we'd see more motors letting go at high hp wot. I vote design flaw, hopefully solvable with ATR, but as of right now the ecu seems to be out smarting us, hahaha.

I concur

[flyrevs2]

in summary then the BSD will keep my motor from blowing ?

[smakdown61]

Originally Posted by flyrevs2 in summary then the BSD will keep my motor from blowing ?

There is no conclusive evidence that it will.

[djuosnteisn]

Yup no hard evidence either way about BSD, so take from the discussion what you want.

I simply removed it cause i liked the idea of an extra quart of oil in the motor, and no siphoning from cylinder 2, plus I just felt cool pulling a 20lb leech off of my motor, hahaha.

[6SpeedTA95]

Originally Posted by Speed3FTW The bottom line is, we do not have enough data to make a solid hypothesis as to why some people pop their motors under similar low load conditions. Educated guesses are helpful, but I think they mislead a lot of people into performing mods that are unnecessary and unlikely to solve the problem. Its like shooting in the dark...well, more like shooting at night with only the moon's light. The only party that does have the data is Mazda, who has put in a substantial amount of time, money and knowledge into finding the cause of these motor failures compared to what we have available to us. I wish it were required by law for them to release this information so people wouldn't be taking unnecessary measures to give themselves a (probably false) sense of security. They should at least release which parts they have changed or modified from model year to model year. I know this isn't helpful, and hopefully the good people looking into this matter find the answers for us quickly. I just feel that as long as your logs look good, I don't really see what else can be done until firm proof of a systematic flaw in our engine is discovered.

Do you think mazda is putting a lot of time/money into this potential issue? I question that simply because they seem to be voiding warranties left and right.

[Target:STi]

the only real evidence that the bsd will save you is really, the lack of evidence. since no forum going mazdaspeed enthusiast has blown after removing the bs, then people ASSume that it must be the fix.

i could just as easily change out my pcv valve, or put the diode in my o2 sensor, or drive around with my A/C on ALL the time, and feasibly make similar claims.

if this happened in between shifts, then perhaps running a BOV VTA wouldve have saved the OP.

as far as the SRT/EVO/STi comments... i dont care about 400hp reliably. i would rather have what they FOR SURE have. a car that you can put a couple of bolt ons, and be fast and reliable. i'd like to find an SRT4 that blew with intake/tbe and a tune under similar conditions. or better yet, stock ones under similar conditions that speeds have blown stock.

[jmhinkle]

Originally Posted by Lex First of all, jmhinkle, I apologize for not being clear. Let me break it down for you. Tell me HOW the BS assembly breaks the engine. Then tell me how it still breaks the engine after it has been removed? Is that clear for you? You are linking not blowing up with the BSD modification without have any solid proof that they should be linked. Period.

Hell no that isn't clear and it sounds more stupid that the last time you tried to ask it. Seriously this shit right here: "Then tell me how it still breaks the engine after it has been removed?" Like I said last time... ummmmmmmm, what???? You aren't getting it. Truthfully, I'm not sure what you are arguing at this point. You seem or try to impose like you are a closet smart guy. The kind who has read a zillion books on all kinds of engineering stuff and has 3 or 4 ph.d's on the wall and wants to pick an argument on based on some tiny fragment of a sentence. Whatever floats your boat. If you are as smart as you want us to believe, then you know as well as I do what stresses the BS puts on the crank that it was not designed for. There is no reason for me to rehash it over and over again for you. You just want to believe they are minimal and I can live with that. I have no reason to argue for you to pull your BS out if you don't want to. Trust me, I like knowing you have it in.

[itzl0l]

speaking of srt4's mine made 300whp on stock turbo from about 2k miles till about 10k miles

....then about 330-340whp from 10k-20k miles on a modded stock turbo....

....then over 400whp from 20k miles till 89k miles on a gtk series turbo.....sold it /lame


thats right....daily drove 400+ whp for nearly 60k miles.....stock block....did have a few tranny problems but nothing as expensive as blowing a speed 3 motor would be.

not to mention how easy it was to make power from.

[Darksun280]

You should hear the flack I'm getting on my Srt-4 forum for blowing up.

[jmhinkle]

Originally Posted by itzl0l speaking of srt4's mine made 300whp on stock turbo from about 2k miles till about 10k miles ....then about 330-340whp from 10k-20k miles on a modded stock turbo.... ....then over 400whp from 20k miles till 89k miles on a gtk series turbo.....sold it /lame thats right....daily drove 400+ whp for nearly 60k miles.....stock block....did have a few tranny problems but nothing as expensive as blowing a speed 3 motor would be. not to mention how easy it was to make power from.

Not to mention I have a neighbor and a coworker with 500+HP SRT-4's DD's. The only thing they blow is tranny parts. I tossed and axle with maybe 250.

[djuosnteisn]

Just to add fuel to the BSD fire, hahahaha.

The only reason i think pulling the BS off of the motor is to help the oiling. I just read a response from cobb bout our engine failures and how the slung rods seem more indicative of oiling issues than knock issues (which, as we all know, usually break pistons not rods). So maybe BS removal DOES help longevity by improving oiling, not just by removing a section from the oil circuit, but also by allowing an extra quart of oil to be put in.

Meh, i think i'm just a late comer and this shits already been hashed out a billion times. What other oiling problems do our cars have? Oh fucked up pcv system? hmmm, that's not good either...

Can any of your smarter people draw any conclusion from this? Could these oil problems be causing our tossed rods? Seriously, i have no feel or experience for this kind of shit.

[VTEC_EATER]

Originally Posted by djuosnteisn Just to add fuel to the BSD fire, hahahaha. The only reason i think pulling the BS off of the motor is to help the oiling. I just read a response from cobb bout our engine failures and how the slung rods seem more indicative of oiling issues than knock issues (which, as we all know, usually break pistons not rods). So maybe BS removal DOES help longevity by improving oiling, not just by removing a section from the oil circuit, but also by allowing an extra quart of oil to be put in. Meh, i think i'm just a late comer and this shits already been hashed out a billion times. What other oiling problems do our cars have? Oh fucked up pcv system? hmmm, that's not good either... Can any of your smarter people draw any conclusion from this? Could these oil problems be causing our tossed rods? Seriously, i have no feel or experience for this kind of shit.

One has to wonder if the removal of these balance shafts increases or decreases the stress within the engine. I suppose things are inconclusive at the moment with the DISI engines since the BSD kits have only been around for 6 months or so. But we know the purpose of the balance shafts are to decrease engine vibrations due to an improperly balanced engine design. This is just a design flaw of all inline 4 cyl. engines, not DISI specific.

But if the removal of the balance shafts increases engine vibrations, obviously the internal components are vibrating more than before. Will this vibration cause other failures within the engine? Will these vibrations trip the knock sensor to pull more timing when in fact the engine is completely fine? Are we going to get more stories of phantom knock that can't be tuned out?

[ChrisK]

Originally Posted by VTEC_EATER One has to wonder if the removal of these balance shafts increases or decreases the stress within the engine. I suppose things are inconclusive at the moment with the DISI engines since the BSD kits have only been around for 6 months or so. But we know the purpose of the balance shafts are to decrease engine vibrations due to an improperly balanced engine design. This is just a design flaw of all inline 4 cyl. engines, not DISI specific. But if the removal of the balance shafts increases engine vibrations, obviously the internal components are vibrating more than before. Will this vibration cause other failures within the engine? Will these vibrations trip the knock sensor to pull more timing when in fact the engine is completely fine? Are we going to get more stories of phantom knock that can't be tuned out?

The balance shafts have NOTHING to do with rotating assembly balance. All they are suppose to do it cancel out vibrations caused by the inline 4 design. Has nothing to do with the internal balance of the engine. It's simply for comfort, to cancel vibrations that the driver would normally feel without the BS. Some inline 4s don't have balance shafts (b-series hondas is a good example, also the 4cyl Ranger).

[djuosnteisn]

^ Right.

I was trying to steer the discussion towards oil, not vibes.