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 Old 01-08-2017, 10:02 AM   #81
 
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Originally Posted by mituc View Post
On my engine the squirters broke free after about 36k kms. I rebuilt the engine at exactly 163500kms and then rebuilt it again at 199965kms, 12kms after squirters on cyls #2 and #3 fell off and one of them shaved away 3 teeth from the balance shaft gear and from the crank gear for the BS.

Occasionally I noticed that after warming up or driving hard the engine was a bit louder, but I was blaming the forged internals and "because racecar".

Those are good pistons. I'm going to reuse them in the second engine I'm going to build (with new piston rings, ofc) and we will pay more attention to the oil squirter clearance this time (at the time when we built it we thought about 3mm was tight but enough). The contact between the skirt and the cylinder wall was minimal and within acceptable limits.
Well that is some food for thought... I have to fix a leak on the oil pan so I will check to see when the pan is dropped what the clearances are like.

Hopefully no contact or damage have been made already. I can't believe they expand 3mm longitudinally. Thanks for the info. @mituc;
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 Old 03-06-2017, 04:01 PM   #82
 
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Hey all, looks like I'll be frequenting the forum a lot more now.
I am currently building my motor, and I've come here for some valuable info you guys might be able to provide.

Long story short, I've pretty much bought @SNOW_QN; 's motor.

So what I have are sp63 4032 pistons, 88mm.

what I am looking for is a definitive spec sheet for piston to wall clearance. As well as maybe some numbers used by others that built and are running these pistons. @sailnaked6842; you said wiseco provided you with a sheet, do you happen to still have that?

I also have very conflicting information on who actually manufactures the pistons, as I have seen screenshots of conversations stating that mahle manufactures them but also screenshots (here) that wiseco manufactures them...
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 Old 03-06-2017, 05:46 PM   #83
 
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Originally Posted by mikey27 View Post
Hey all, looks like I'll be frequenting the forum a lot more now.

I am currently building my motor, and I've come here for some valuable info you guys might be able to provide.



Long story short, I've pretty much bought @SNOW_QN 's motor.



So what I have are sp63 4032 pistons, 88mm.



what I am looking for is a definitive spec sheet for piston to wall clearance. As well as maybe some numbers used by others that built and are running these pistons. @sailnaked6842 you said wiseco provided you with a sheet, do you happen to still have that?



I also have very conflicting information on who actually manufactures the pistons, as I have seen screenshots of conversations stating that mahle manufactures them but also screenshots (here) that wiseco manufactures them...


Mahle makes them. I spoke with a rep from Mahle.


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 Old 03-06-2017, 06:08 PM   #84
 
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@mikey27; to reference a member, you put an "@" before their name and a ";" afterwards. That will ping them
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 Old 03-06-2017, 07:32 PM   #85
 
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Originally Posted by everton99 View Post
Mahle makes them. I spoke with a rep from Mahle.


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Ok, this is what I truly thought, but a lot of info here that contradicts.
Originally Posted by sheston View Post
@mikey27; to reference a member, you put an "@" before their name and a ";" afterwards. That will ping them
wow, see this is what facef*ck does to your brain...
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 Old 03-06-2017, 07:37 PM   #86
 
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I emailed sp63, and this is their response. I really can't see that being accurate. Thoughts?
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File Type: png sp63 ptw email.png (16.8 KB, 68 views)
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 Old 03-06-2017, 08:33 PM   #87
 
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Originally Posted by mikey27 View Post
I emailed sp63, and this is their response. I really can't see that being accurate. Thoughts?


I think that is pretty accurate because I have their 2816 Mahle pro series pistons and they call for .028 clearance. My pistons being the 2816 must have a tighter PWC because of less expansion capabilities.


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 Old 03-06-2017, 08:50 PM   #88
 
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Originally Posted by zjnspeed3 View Post
I think that is pretty accurate because I have their 2816 Mahle pro series pistons and they call for .028 clearance. My pistons being the 2816 must have a tighter PWC because of less expansion capabilities.


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Its the other way around, the 2618's expand and contract more than the 4032 alloy.
That's the advantage of running the 4032, at the expense of it being brittle.

I think they gave me the spec for the standard 2618 piston. The 4032 spec should be around .0025 as far as I know.
As far as what I can find on mahle's site, the closest I can find is the st pistons, which show a ptw of .0016-.0024 for the 4032 alloy, and .0021-.0029 for the 2618 alloy.

Pretty critical thing, you'd think they would want to be certain they are giving out correct information...

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 Old 03-06-2017, 11:16 PM   #89
 
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Originally Posted by mikey27 View Post
Its the other way around, the 2618's expand and contract more than the 4032 alloy.
That's the advantage of running the 4032, at the expense of it being brittle.

I think they gave me the spec for the standard 2618 piston. The 4032 spec should be around .0025 as far as I know.
As far as what I can find on mahle's site, the closest I can find is the st pistons, which show a ptw of .0016-.0024 for the 4032 alloy, and .0021-.0029 for the 2618 alloy.

Pretty critical thing, you'd think they would want to be certain they are giving out correct information...

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When I got mine, SP63 told me the clearances over the phone. They were never on a spec sheet or anything. Kind of weird getting the info over the phone and not from the actual piston company but I have no piston slap after 20k daily driven miles in 100+ and -10 degree weather


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 Old 03-07-2017, 05:41 AM   #90
 
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Clearance will definitely be tighter on 4032 pistons. Piston slap is more of a sign of an engine that was machined poorly than the piston material. I'm a bit under 40k on my 2618's but my car doesn't see winter (still sees cold days though), no slap whatsoever.

I would not listen to whatever SP63 is telling you, go straight to the manufacturer and listen to them. Also ask whatever shop is building your engine on what their thoughts are. The two biggest influences to determining PWC are piston material and intended use. A street car that sees the occasional track day will have tighter clearances than a dedicated track car using the same pistons. There's nothing wrong with setting clearances a little bit looser, you'll have marginally more blowby and cylinder walls will wear a tad faster, but it's infinitely better than setting it a little bit tighter and having the engine seize on you.
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 Old 03-08-2017, 04:12 AM   #91
 
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Looks like the .0016-.0024 might be right. Here's a screenshot from the other site where they are talking about it. That's straight from mahle.
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 Old 03-08-2017, 05:32 AM   #92
 
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.0016" is considered pretty damn tight for forged pistons. 2618 pistons on our engine are usually .0035-.0045" for reference. But seeing as they do expand less I would fell comfortable with running .002-.0025". I probably wouldn't go any tighter than that, my opinion of course, a builder may tell you different.
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 Old 03-08-2017, 05:52 AM   #93
 
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@Mazdazilla6; do your career racecar buddies know anything about cyro treating/wpc treating forged piston alloys, namely 2618 & 4032?

Seeing pictures of @phate;'s cracked wiseco piston skirts made me wonder if 2618 could benefit from either of these treatments.
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 Old 03-08-2017, 06:04 AM   #94
 
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Originally Posted by zenit View Post
@Mazdazilla6; do your career racecar buddies know anything about cyro treating/wpc treating forged piston alloys, namely 2618 & 4032?

Seeing pictures of @phate;'s cracked wiseco piston skirts made me wonder if 2618 could benefit from either of these treatments.
Not sure, but I can ask our engine builders at work. I was unaware Clint's pistons cracked. That's a very unusual failure mode.

Edit: Just talked to one of the builders. He said he's never looked into cryo treating pistons but it won't hurt anything. As for coatings there probably isn't a coating that would prevent it from cracking but if you can run a thick skirt coating to keep the piston from rocking as much as possible, it would probably help. He said the only time he's ever seen skirts crack is on undersquare engines (our engine is undersquare) and it was from lots of side loading. He also recommended giving Wiseco a call to see what their thoughts on the failure would be.

Clint, if you're interested in any coatings, there's a shop that's local that we use at work that specializes in coatings. They offer this really sweet self clearancing coating for skirts. The shop is called Line2Line Coatings.
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 Old 03-08-2017, 06:35 AM   #95
 
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Originally Posted by Mazdazilla6 View Post

Edit: Just talked to one of the builders. He said he's never looked into cryo treating pistons but it won't hurt anything. As for coatings there probably isn't a coating that would prevent it from cracking but if you can run a thick skirt coating to keep the piston from rocking as much as possible, it would probably help. He said the only time he's ever seen skirts crack is on undersquare engines (our engine is undersquare) and it was from lots of side loading. He also recommended giving Wiseco a call to see what their thoughts on the failure would be.
If I recall correctly, his pistons still had the factory skirt coating despite the cracks.
Re:thick coating solution- wouldn't thermal expansion cause issues with ptw clearances? Or are you suggesting ptw clearances should incorporate the applied piston skirt coating?

Doesn't it seem like skirt cracking is more related to side loading pistons as a function of rod ratio, rather than bore/stroke ratio?
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 Old 03-08-2017, 06:49 AM   #96
 
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Originally Posted by zenit View Post
If I recall correctly, his pistons still had the factory skirt coating despite the cracks.
Re:thick coating solution- wouldn't thermal expansion cause issues with ptw clearances? Or are you suggesting ptw clearances should incorporate the applied piston skirt coating?

Doesn't it seem like skirt cracking is more related to side loading pistons as a function of rod ratio, rather than bore/stroke ratio?
You are correct, rod ratio will have a much larger influence. But bore size and pwc will dictate how far the piston can rock. Also, undersquare engines in most cases have low rod ratios and thus higher rod angles.

The coating I'm talking about is actually applied to the point that the piston skirt becomes larger than the bore. As the engine runs the coating will self clearance. So the coating is applied after pwc is set. When the piston expands more from heat the coating will just clearance itself more. Also from what I've heard Wiseco just uses a teflon skirt coating, it's not bad but there are more effective coatings out there.
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Originally Posted by Mazdazilla6 View Post
You are correct, rod ratio will have a much larger influence. But bore size and pwc will dictate how far the piston can rock. Also, undersquare engines in most cases have low rod ratios and thus higher rod angles.

The coating I'm talking about is actually applied to the point that the piston skirt becomes larger than the bore. As the engine runs the coating will self clearance. So the coating is applied after pwc is set. When the piston expands more from heat the coating will just clearance itself more. Also from what I've heard Wiseco just uses a teflon skirt coating, it's not bad but there are more effective coatings out there.
Re: rod ratio v bore/stroke. That was my thought, too, but I wanted to be sure I wasn't missing something.

Re: fancy-pants coating-
How do you get a piston w/coating that's a larger OD than the cylinder bore, into the bore for assembly?
I assume that the Teflon factory coating would have to be removed to apply your fancy-pants coating.
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 Old 03-08-2017, 07:08 AM   #98
 
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Originally Posted by zenit View Post
Re: rod ratio v bore/stroke. That was my thought, too, but I wanted to be sure I wasn't missing something.

Re: fancy-pants coating-
How do you get a piston w/coating that's a larger OD than the cylinder bore, into the bore for assembly?
I assume that the Teflon factory coating would have to be removed to apply your fancy-pants coating.
About the coatings, I'm not quite sure for either of those questions. My guess/understanding from talking to Line2Line is that the coating is only taken .0005-.001" larger than the bore so it's a tight fit but the coating will give a bit as you push it down the bore.

Based off my experience with powder coating you always want as clean of a surface before applying powder so that would lead me to think you'd want to take the old coating off but that may not apply to coatings like this. I've never looked into it before because you usually need pricey equipment to be able to do it safely. True ceramic coatings (not bbq paint) are extremely toxic so you want a good respirator setup and IIRC the equipment to apply it is a couple pretty pennies. I imagine teflon coatings and the like are more akin to ceramic coating than powder coating. I wanted to ceramic coat everything on my hotside last year until I found out how intensive it was haha.
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 Old 03-08-2017, 02:04 PM   #99
 
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Originally Posted by SNOW_QN View Post
Looks like the .0016-.0024 might be right. Here's a screenshot from the other site where they are talking about it. That's straight from mahle.
Thanks for adding that screenshot, good info right there.
Originally Posted by Mazdazilla6 View Post
.0016" is considered pretty damn tight for forged pistons. 2618 pistons on our engine are usually .0035-.0045" for reference. But seeing as they do expand less I would fell comfortable with running .002-.0025". I probably wouldn't go any tighter than that, my opinion of course, a builder may tell you different.
It is, BUT, if you go by mahle's sheet, it also instructs to measure from the base of the skirt, which is the largest point. So the clearance might actually be slightly more where you might traditionally measure.

I measured where I would usually to fit pistons, and my clearances are .002-.0027, (with selective sorting) And I think I am happy with that, based on all the information I can gather.

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 Old 03-10-2017, 12:05 PM   #100
 
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@mikey27; When I got my pistons they were definitely Wiseco and here should be have a build sheet on this site from my engine builder that claims Wiseco supplied the piston spec sheet. Mahle supplies the 2618 SP63 pistons if I remember correctly. If they're not installed check the ring gap as the builder and build sheet noted that the ring gaps were too small which made the piston rings stick. I love the pistons but I can tell you the builder did not as Speed Performance didn't seem to have their ducks in a line getting all the information they needed together. I'll see if I can find the spec sheet for the pistons however it's been a while so I can't guarantee much but from what I remember they were around .0026.
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 Old 03-14-2017, 03:38 PM   #101
 
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update. It just gets more confusing. Looks like I'm going to contact wiseco though.

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 Old 03-14-2017, 06:54 PM   #102
 
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I've lost what the question was. I built with Wiseco's and they came with the spec sheet. Actually, I checked the gap and it was perfect without me having to do anything. Maybe I was just lucky
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 Old 03-14-2017, 07:28 PM   #103
 
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Originally Posted by sheston View Post
I've lost what the question was. I built with Wiseco's and they came with the spec sheet. Actually, I checked the gap and it was perfect without me having to do anything. Maybe I was just lucky
I'm looking for a definite answer to what ptw clearance on the 4032's should be. At the very least who manufactures them, because there is information saying mahle, and wiseco. I'll be contacting wiseco and reporting back. So it will be somewhere in black and white for future.

Ring gap is no problem, I know the specs for that.

I should start a build thread and stop cluttering here as soon as I get that spec from wiseco.

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 Old 03-14-2017, 08:31 PM   #104
 
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Originally Posted by mikey27 View Post
I'm looking for a definite answer to what ptw clearance on the 4032's should be. At the very least who manufactures them, because there is information saying mahle, and wiseco. I'll be contacting wiseco and reporting back. So it will be somewhere in black and white for future.

Ring gap is no problem, I know the specs for that.

I should start a build thread and stop cluttering here as soon as I get that spec from wiseco.

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I talked with a rep from Mahle who said and I quote "we make Speed Performance's 4032 pistons" I had a 30 minute discussion with him about it.


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 Old 03-14-2017, 08:35 PM   #105
 
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Originally Posted by everton99 View Post
I talked with a rep from Mahle who said and I quote "we make Speed Performance's 4032 pistons" I had a 30 minute discussion with him about it.


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This is so frustrating. I can't believe there is so much misinformation over such a simple thing.

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 Old 03-14-2017, 10:05 PM   #106
 
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I don't really get what the problem is. We already know that Mahle makes those pistons for SP63 and for SP63 only.
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 Old 03-15-2017, 09:34 AM   #107
 
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Originally Posted by mituc View Post
I don't really get what the problem is. We already know that Mahle makes those pistons for SP63 and for SP63 only.
The confusion is someone posting an email from sales@sp63, where they state Wiseco's recommended specs, which don't make sense if it's a Mahle piston.

Maybe SP63 changed manufacturers at some point, thus the confusion?
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 Old 03-15-2017, 11:02 AM   #108
 
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Originally Posted by nindoja View Post
Maybe SP63 changed manufacturers at some point, thus the confusion?
They have several vendors themselves.
Also, for these aftermarket pistons the clearance specs (piston to wall clearance, ring end gap) are pretty similar for pistons make of the same material and for the same type of application. The differences are way smaller than the material heat expansion differences are.

If you look, by example, at the ring end gap recommendations, they are very much alike and then it comes down to every builder or owner to judge the situation and decide what actual values to go for.
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 Old 03-15-2017, 12:14 PM   #109
 
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Originally Posted by everton99 View Post
I talked with a rep from Mahle who said and I quote "we make Speed Performance's 4032 pistons" I had a 30 minute discussion with him about it.


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Originally Posted by mikey27 View Post
This is so frustrating. I can't believe there is so much misinformation over such a simple thing.

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I just got my 4032's from SP63 a couple weeks ago. Came direct from Wiseco.
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 Old 03-28-2017, 06:12 PM   #110
 
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Originally Posted by sailnaked6842 View Post
So FINALLY after ~8 months without my speed6 it's alive. I went with the SP63 4032 pistons and I have nothing negative to say about them...although the shop that built my short block may. First off the pistons are awesome, no noise (as to be expected) and they feel really torquey, although a downpipe is on there that was not on before... But they're performing well and your butt dyno will thank you for going that route. Should also mention that these pistons were moly coated which should aid in the initial break in.

That being said there are some things you should watch out for that had I assembled this motor I would have not have caught, so hopefully this makes you guys aware and on the look out. I was one of the first people to order the 4032 pistons back in July and aside from taking forever there were some issues with the specs. Apparently the ring land width was too narrow on the pistons causing sticky rings. Spec was .048 and supply was .0470. Rings were measured at .047 so to maintain manufacturers suggested clearance they were ground to .0460 and .0458. Luckily the shop/machine shop caught this and fixed it. Had I assembled it I can't say I would have, so if you do assemble this yourself make sure you measure. Secondly if you have trouble getting the spec sheet Wiseco is able to provide it if you ask. Hopefully SP63 fixed these issues, but this was my experience and although I really like the end product I hope it helps you guys to be aware.

@HaXiR; if you don't plan on making anymore than 500 hp then you should be good to go on the 4032 pistons, personally I think they're great and it would be hard to handle knowing every time you start your car you're taking life away from it
Well, I'm at the fitting stage, and I've now run into exactly what you said about axial clearance of the rings in the piston ring grooves. Not good.

Did the shop say how they took the rings down? I would think surface grinding would be the only option...

Edit- also, I had zero luck getting a spec sheet. I called wiseco, and they wouldn't do anything for me without a part #. Tried to email them, same thing. Do you happen to know it?

This build is a nightmare.

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 Old 03-28-2017, 10:04 PM   #111
 
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Originally Posted by mikey27 View Post
Well, I'm at the fitting stage, and I've now run into exactly what you said about axial clearance of the rings in the piston ring grooves. Not good.

Did the shop say how they took the rings down? I would think surface grinding would be the only option...

Edit- also, I had zero luck getting a spec sheet. I called wiseco, and they wouldn't do anything for me without a part #. Tried to email them, same thing. Do you happen to know it?

This build is a nightmare.

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Yeah, I'll give my builder a call, he'll be super excited to hear about these pistons again lol I'll ask if he's got the spec sheet filed away as well as how they took the rings down. I believe it was with a special grinder that required them to make a jib. All in all they hated what they had to go through to make the pistons work, but they work great now if that's any consolation to you.
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 Old 03-28-2017, 11:35 PM   #112
 
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Originally Posted by g00s3y View Post
I just got my 4032's from SP63 a couple weeks ago. Came direct from Wiseco.
They came in a Wiseco branded box, but all 3 sets I ordered came directly from SP63 which happens to be 1.8 miles away from the office of the freight forwarder I use.
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 Old 04-01-2017, 06:44 AM   #113
 
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You guys can thank me for this, i accept payments in the form of cash and handies.

From my builder: Attached are the spec sheet I hunted down from Wiseco and Speed Performance. Obviously the one with the Wiseco Label is directly from Wiseco. The tooling we made for the Rings will only work for the 88mm rings. We made a tool to hold the ring then lapped the top of the ring on a precision stone thus thinning the ring. It’s not something I would like to do again as it can be easily solved by adding .001” to the ring land on the piston. I’m pretty sure I informed them of this issue but I see it went on deaf ears. I hope this helps.
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 Old 04-01-2017, 11:10 AM   #114
 
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Wait, so you're saying the piston ringland is not deep enough or what's the actual problem?
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 Old 04-01-2017, 01:00 PM   #115
 
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Originally Posted by mituc View Post
Wait, so you're saying the piston ringland is not deep enough or what's the actual problem?
It's not the depth, but the width. The rings don't have any up and down (axial) clearance, therefore they are snug and will stick in their current state.
Originally Posted by sailnaked6842 View Post
You guys can thank me for this, i accept payments in the form of cash and handies.

From my builder: Attached are the spec sheet I hunted down from Wiseco and Speed Performance. Obviously the one with the Wiseco Label is directly from Wiseco. The tooling we made for the Rings will only work for the 88mm rings. We made a tool to hold the ring then lapped the top of the ring on a precision stone thus thinning the ring. It’s not something I would like to do again as it can be easily solved by adding .001” to the ring land on the piston. I’m pretty sure I informed them of this issue but I see it went on deaf ears. I hope this helps.
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That was the first option that my father suggested I do (he builds motors), but I wasn't keen on it being by hand, and the potential to be less than accurate.

The machinist in me is saying, put it in the surface grinder, but that could go horribly wrong if the mag vice doesn't hold, and it spits it out. As well as the potential to take too much off.

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 Old 04-01-2017, 06:45 PM   #116
 
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@mikey27; No problem, it's unfortunate that SP63 really does screw up such a good thing by having such poor customer service. Also I'm glad you asked since it seems other people were having similar issues so now the questions are over and hopefully this information spreads to more threads since it'll likely come up in the future.

The machinist in me is saying the exact same thing. If you've got a good surface grinder go for it, those mags are beasts and it's pretty difficult to take too much off since you'll be looking to remove .0003. If you're not feeling the surfacing grinder there's some other options that are reasonably reliable that involve granite countertops and 2000 grit sandpaper.

Good luck with the build, I subscribed and I'm looking forward to see how it goes
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 Old 12-06-2017, 06:01 PM   #117
 
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Thread revival,

So, there is an issue with Wiseco wit the top ringland size? If custom ordered could this be solved? I got word from my machinist that the block that I provided him is good and now I need to buy pistons. I have a place to which I am going to inquire about parts that my father uses for our AMC's, seeing that AMC's are off the wall and not very common and having stuff from this guy in my 360 that I drag race 2-5 times a year and beat on the street, the confidence level with his judgment and knowledge is high and he has worked with my machinist before, but was looking at SP63 as a back up.

I'm really only looking to warm this thing over, I threw a rod and really don't want that to ever happen again. If the budget is there I plan on using a BNR S1 only for the fact that it has better internals then a K04, so realistically with the other typical stuff I have planned on putting in this car I'd be happy with 315HP at the most, as this is my DD and I am not looking to make crazy power just want it not to break again any time soon.

I live in the northeast and this car will see temps nearing zero degrees, if people are having good luck with 2618 pistons in the cold then cool, I'll shoot for those incase I want to get stupid with the car and put more power to it someday.
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 Old 12-07-2017, 06:09 AM   #118
 
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I would strongly suggest against using 2618s for a winter DD. Don't get me wrong modern 2618s are heads and tails above the old wall slappers, but they are still 2618s and require a very good warmup to prevent premature wear and other such issues. I run 2618s from SP63 in my DD and I have zero complaints(ive run 4032s and 2618s), but I store my car in the winter months. The issue is in regular 60-70ish degrees you need a good 7-10 minutes to warm up the engine before putting a decent load on it. In zero degree temps you are in engine block heater territory not to mention a good 15-20 min to fully warm up the engine. For your desires you'll benefit more from 4032s.

While I dont want to get this thread off subject I will say that for ~$200 more you can get a s3 and be infinitely more happy with the results. 315 will be very tough on a s1. start a new thread for more input.
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 Old 12-08-2017, 12:58 PM   #119
 
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@GroceryGtr; with staying on topic....
thank you for the advice, I will see what info I get from the place I called last night before I get way into particulars with them. I'm going to try to stay with this certain supplier because its the place that the machinist my family uses so he wont question anything, but if they can't meet my needs then I'd most likely go to SP63.

It typically doesn't get to zero degrees here too often for too long but its at the extreme end of what the car will see as I really don't need to buy a another car for extreme cold use haha

what were the 4032 pistons you used?

will start a thread about turbo choice when it gets closer to happening, have to sort out the bottom end first
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 Old 12-08-2017, 07:07 PM   #120
 
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Was there ever a P2W clearance spec sheet made?
Split up 2618's and 4032's. List what clearance was used in each build and what WHP they're running. Slap or no slap - scale of 1-10 on loudness. The climate in which that slap is present. Possibly also include ethanol % or W/M specs.

I have set of Manley 88mm 2618's. The spec sheet says 0.003 for coated pistons. I heard many times locally that 0.003 is too tight for 2618's. Like several others, I'm shooting for around 450awhp DD as an end goal.
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