MazdaSpeed 2.3L DISI Turbo Blown Engine Resource Thread

[ASIC_BSEE]

They measured the crankshaft endplay at 15 thousandths. Spec is 17-21, so it's within spec.

I examined the piston top and there were no pock marks, pits or holes that you would see from detonation or pre-ignition. The skirts look clean too. The cylinder walls still have the factory honing marks. The break in the rod is pretty messed up from all the banging around for the second or two before I pushed in the clutch, so you really can't see much there.

The bearings look clean aside from the damage they did taking the parts out. There is no sign the rod was bent at any time and I never felt off-balance pulses in the clutch. It's really looking more like metal fatigue or oil hydrolock. The only thing is that I cannot tell if it ingested any oil. They told me the intake manifold was clean, but I didn't have a chance to look at it cause they kicked me out of there when they went to lunch today. I have the piston and broken rod now. Is there any way to test the rod pieces for brittleness or metal fatigue?

The last 3 pictures are of the other 3 piston tops. A lot of carbon buildup.

I find out today what the decision is on the warranty. They said if it is covered, they will only honor a used engine replacement. They also said that there are no new engines available from Mazda anyways. If I wanted a new engine built(short block and head), I'd have to pay the difference. Does this sound consistent with an extended warranty? Any advise?

[8.5MS3]

i would call bs on a used motor.

if you drive properly and this shit happens, whose to say the owner of the used motor didnt beat the piss out of it.

how do you know that 2nd hand motor isnt on the verge of grenading too?

what happens when, 6 months from now that engine pops, whose to blame?

im just playing devils advocate. I would demand a new motor.

make sure they transfer your 100k warranty and reset the clock

[DaleNixon]

Originally Posted by Lex Loading the engine at low RPMs (lugging etc) is hard on the rotating assembly. High torque (spikes) at low RPM are always bad.

How low is too low? I think 5PSI at 3500RPM isn't too bad. Am I wrong?

[ASIC_BSEE]

I re-read my Mazda Extended Warranty and found this: "All repairs or replacements made at Mazda dealers shall be made using only genuine Mazda new or remanufactured parts unless otherwise authorized by YOU."

So, they cannot put a used engine in my car unless it is remanufactured.

[shpankey]

Originally Posted by ASIC_BSEE I re-read my Mazda Extended Warranty and found this: "All repairs or replacements made at Mazda dealers shall be made using only genuine Mazda new or remanufactured parts unless otherwise authorized by YOU." So, they cannot put a used engine in my car unless it is remanufactured.

Unless you tell them they can. Which is probably why they'll try to get you to sign something to do it first.

[ASIC_BSEE]

I do want to say to all of you....Be careful, Mazda set the power in this engine near the limits of it's parts, especially with their intake and exhaust. Add more stuff and you're in bad territory. You aren't going to get any forewarning before it throws a rod. Boost spikes of 18-19 psi is a lot of pressure in this engine and it's just a matter of time.

[Lex]

Originally Posted by ASIC_BSEE I re-read my Mazda Extended Warranty and found this: "All repairs or replacements made at Mazda dealers shall be made using only genuine Mazda new or remanufactured parts unless otherwise authorized by YOU." So, they cannot put a used engine in my car unless it is remanufactured.

Good pics. I have some very quick comments and will add more later:

1. The piston top was hammered by the valves several time meaning it was stuck up in the bore.

2. The break in the side of the piston was likely done by the rod pulling DOWN on it ... again pointing towards the piston being seized in the bore.

3. There are some good scratches on the bore itself. Was the piston wedged in there?

4. The oil rings on the motor are completely coked. This was with synthetic??

Would you be interested in sending the piston/rod/bearings my way so that I can see it up close? I can send it back if you want it back in a couple of weeks.

[ASIC_BSEE]

Originally Posted by Lex Good pics. I have some very quick comments and will add more later: 1. The piston top was hammered by the valves several time meaning it was stuck up in the bore. 2. The break in the side of the piston was likely done by the rod pulling DOWN on it ... again pointing towards the piston being seized in the bore. 3. There are some good scratches on the bore itself. Was the piston wedged in there? 4. The oil rings on the motor are completely coked. This was with synthetic?? Would you be interested in sending the piston/rod/bearings my way so that I can see it up close? I can send it back if you want it back in a couple of weeks.

For #1, There is an impact mark under the piston where the crank counter-balance had hit it real hard on one side. I assumed that is what cracked it.

PM me your address. And, yes, i'd like it back

Hell, I can send you the block too if you wanted, but I was planning on recycling it for the aluminum.

[Lex]

Originally Posted by ASIC_BSEE I do want to say to all of you....Be careful, Mazda set the power in this engine near the limits of it's parts, especially with their intake and exhaust. Add more stuff and you're in bad territory. You aren't going to get any forewarning before it throws a rod. Boost spikes of 18-19 psi is a lot of pressure in this engine and it's just a matter of time.

Was this something official or personal opinion?

EDIT: What I mean - did Mazda mention anything regarding the failure?

[ASIC_BSEE]

Originally Posted by Lex Was this something official or personal opinion? EDIT: What I mean - did Mazda mention anything regarding the failure?

This is my personal opinion after reading posts for the past 3 years.

[FreeFlyFreak]

Looks like the rod broke in a different place from the photos I have seen of others, much further down toward the crank?

Bear in mind I know less than nothing in this area, but my guess would be your rod failed for a different reason than in most of the others motors

[bf360]

Originally Posted by ASIC_BSEE I do want to say to all of you....Be careful, Mazda set the power in this engine near the limits of it's parts, especially with their intake and exhaust. Add more stuff and you're in bad territory. You aren't going to get any forewarning before it throws a rod. Boost spikes of 18-19 psi is a lot of pressure in this engine and it's just a matter of time.

I dont buy that shit, the power is not near the limits it is more flaw than anything the hard parts are not weak

[dcs191919]

ok maybe the rods are not weak but they certainly aren't strong. The rods seem to be the only point of failure so it only makes sense to throw some of those badass carillos in there for peace of mind.

[ASIC_BSEE]

They look bigger in person, but I looked at rods out of a Saturn SL1 engine and they were not much smaller in cross-sectional area. Considering that engine is 100 HP, you would think our rods should have at least 3X the cross-sectional area.

[ASIC_BSEE]

counter balance impact.

[ASIC_BSEE]

Originally Posted by FreeFlyFreak Looks like the rod broke in a different place from the photos I have seen of others, much further down toward the crank? Bear in mind I know less than nothing in this area, but my guess would be your rod failed for a different reason than in most of the others motors

Well, I just thought of an idea. What if I get a new OEM rod and take it and my broken rod to a university and have them hardness test them both? I know exactly where to take them because I took a Material Science class where we did that at another university. I assume that the engine and micro-detonations are working the metal, making it more and more brittle. It should be a straight forward test.

[Smoke_31]

Originally Posted by ASIC_BSEE I find out today what the decision is on the warranty. They said if it is covered, they will only honor a used engine replacement. They also said that there are no new engines available from Mazda anyways. If I wanted a new engine built(short block and head), I'd have to pay the difference. Does this sound consistent with an extended warranty? Any advise?

Tell them you want a brand new engine or you'll go to the BBB.

Mazda up here in Canada replaced my blown motor with a brand new long block and when I took my car in, I had an HKS intake, HKS ssqv recirc and a CPE turbo back exhaust installed. I even got them to reinstall my after market parts for $150 or so (they initially wanted $400+ to install my parts).

Tell them to quit playing games with you. I made sure to reference this thread and to point out that this is becoming a more and more wide spread issue. (I know there will people to argue this fact. Flame on)

[Lex]

Hmm .... these marks look a little like pitting on the top of this piston. Which cyl is this?



Were the injectors leaking? Also, when was the last time you changed the plugs?

All that carbon is just waiting to auto ignite

[dcs191919]

It would be interesting to see what has changed with 2010. Has anyone heard of a 2010 blowing up yet. Surely Mazda would not make the same mistake twice.

[_Toxic_]

Still where is those STOCK Mazdaspeeds that have blown?? Maybe these cars arent so easy to mod with just a bunch of bolt ons without having a GOOD tune for it.
I dont think these engines are any weaker than others..

Just look at RaceRoots engine for example, that thing should have blown almost at once if these engine where soo weak...

[dcs191919]

you do have a good point but with that giant t67 it only makes 428 hp for 600rpms. + it makes the torque much later.. not to mention its the ONLY engine making that kind of power. I guess I thought this engine could handle 400-450 easy. That shouldn't be too much to ask.. I mean my buddies procharged ls3 vette is making 790whp 720wtq on stock EVERYTHING... engine, clutch, rearend... granted its a 50k car, but the same goes for even the jetta, arent they making like 650 already!!!

[_Toxic_]

Originally Posted by dcs191919 you do have a good point but with that giant t67 it only makes 428 hp for 600rpms. + it makes the torque much later.. not to mention its the ONLY engine making that kind of power. I guess I thought this engine could handle 400-450 easy. That shouldn't be too much to ask.. I mean my buddies procharged ls3 vette is making 790whp 720wtq on stock EVERYTHING... engine, clutch, rearend... granted its a 50k car, but the same goes for even the jetta, arent they making like 650 already!!!

Yeah about the torque.. if it was something that could be a problem, it should be all the torque u get in these cars in such low rpms.. perhaps thats the reason RR is having the big turbo and setting the torque to come later in rpms. I think it can handle 400-450 easy, if u know what u are doing. The ECU seems to be the bottleneck in those cars..

Like u are saying why can alot of other cars´Jetta/honda etc... make big hp, and not the mazda? Why would mazda build a cheap/weak engine? Since when did they build bad engines? i dont buy that its a weak engine or weak rods or whatever.. just bad tunes etc. just my opinion..

[8.5MS3]

Originally Posted by ASIC_BSEE They look bigger in person, but I looked at rods out of a Saturn SL1 engine and they were not much smaller in cross-sectional area. Considering that engine is 100 HP, you would think our rods should have at least 3X the cross-sectional area.

it doesnt work like that. a forged rod with the same dimensions is stronger than a cast rod. there is also a point where the rod will have so much mass that it will tear itself apart at high revs so bigger and beefier isnt always better

[ASIC_BSEE]

Originally Posted by 8.5MS3 it doesnt work like that. a forged rod with the same dimensions is stronger than a cast rod. there is also a point where the rod will have so much mass that it will tear itself apart at high revs so bigger and beefier isnt always better

Yea, your'e right. I guess i'm just so frusterated. I do believe these rods are very strong for a well tuned car. I just don't believe the Mazda tune/engine design is quite right. The cars listed here blew mostly under odd conditions for an engine to blow. Because of this engine's design, there are modes that the SW cannot fix. I believe there is still a flaw in the engine design, maybe it's the direct injection. Someone wrote a post a long time ago that said Lexus or Infinity (can't remember which one) cars with DI are having major problems at higher miles with heavy buildup. I wonder if they added a throttle body fuel injector in this engine for cruise, if it would keep the engine cleaner and help prevent those odd modes.

Originally Posted by Lex Hmm .... these marks look a little like pitting on the top of this piston. Which cyl is this? Were the injectors leaking? Also, when was the last time you changed the plugs? All that carbon is just waiting to auto ignite

I believe that was the one next to the #1 that blew (from drivers side). I looked them over real well when I was there and didn't see any pitting. The picture is hard to see with the lighting and all the carbon buildup.

They didn't check the injectors and the plugs were the originals (supposed to go 100k miles).

Are our camshafts hollow?

[cudaman]

Subscribing to thread for weekly updates. Suggest a lot of folks do the same here to get status and causals. Plus dealing with warranty. Good luck ASIC_BEE.

[ASIC_BSEE]

I'm getting very upset here. The extended warranty is held by a third party, not Mazda. The adjuster and the dealership could not determine the cause of failure, so the warranty company said they won't authorize the repairs until a cause of failure is determined.

They are digging deeper now into the injectors, VVT assembly, etc to try and determine what caused the rod to break. Right now they are saying it's metal fatigue or a flawed rod, but the warranty company wants proof. It's too destroyed to prove these theorys. This is plain stupid. The rod broke. There are no signs of detonation or preignition, or overspeed. What else is there? They are also looking at the possibility of fuel hydrolock if an injector failed open, but again all the bearings look good, pisont tops look good, rings look good....Extended warranties are ridiculous if you need it to cover an expensive repair.

I am only allowed 6 days on a rental car by the warranty, period. Today is day 5 and it's going to take weeks to get a new engine IF they find a cause of failure, which in itself may take another week.

I'm buying a 2000 Saturn SL1 with a re-built engine for $1800 bucks from my best friend to hold me off for a while. 100 HP, I can't wait.....

Oh, and by the way, I will have to pay for my expenses in an arbitration if that is what we do next. And, I would still need to prove what caused the failure in that arbitration to get them to cover this mess. Is there any way to tie the serial number on the rod to other failed engines? Or is that number even a serial number?

Is there any way the HPFP bypass failed and forced fuel into my engine while I was engine braking down the hill?

[Smoke_31]

The rod should be able to be traced back through Mazda to the manufacturer of the pistons to a particular batch. The likely-hood of Mazda putting this kind of effort in for you is slim unfortunately.

Hang in there man. Took Mazda 2 months to get my car back to me under warranty.

[ASIC_BSEE]

Originally Posted by Smoke_31 The rod should be able to be traced back through Mazda to the manufacturer of the pistons to a particular batch. The likely-hood of Mazda putting this kind of effort in for you is slim unfortunately. Hang in there man. Took Mazda 2 months to get my car back to me under warranty.

But this isn't under Mazda's warranty....Extended warranty contractor.

[8.5MS3]

Originally Posted by ASIC_BSEE But this isn't under Mazda's warranty....Extended warranty contractor.

i would go thru their fine print and shit, you may find out some info u can use to push the warranty company into your favor.

[ASIC_BSEE]

Looks like it's going to be covered, but they said they would call tomorrow with their official decision. It also looks like they are going to ask the dealership re-use the old head after replacing the 4 bent valves and pay for a replacement short block. According to my contract they only need to replace any damaged part due to the warranteed cause. This is why they can re-use the head. I have a few options now (if it is covered):

My wife and I are undecided whether we are going to keep the car or sell it. We really need the $450 a month car payment for other things. If we keep it, it will be my project car for life; i.e. 400whp cp-e car as opposed to a different car later in life (a few years at least).

1. I can let them do the repairs and sell the car with a new short block and 60k mile head an pay off my loan. Car will still have warranty til 100k miles.
2. Pay the difference to have a new, full long block installed instead (May not be any difference if I buy the engine myself from a friend at another Mazda dealer ($3308 for 07-09 or $4258 for 2010)). Plus, my labor charges would be much less than what the warranty company agrees to pay to rebuild my old engine. Sell the car with warranty to 100k miles and new long block.
3. Pay the difference to have a new, full long block installed instead (May not be any difference if I buy the engine myself at wholesale). Plus, my labor charges would be much less than what the warranty company agrees to pay to rebuild my old engine. Keep the car and later put in forged pistons/rods, cp-e HPFP, cp-e DP, cp-e 3.5" MAF, cp-e standback II w/newest wall-breaking SW, Stage 2 clutch, PG Manifold, BS delete, PTP PVC fix, PTP Cams, cp-e motor mount.
4. Pay the difference to get the PG Forged short block and re-use my head, build..add other parts from above..???

Any advise from the experts? Can cp-e and PTP chime in here too?

[FreeFlyFreak]

Originally Posted by ASIC_BSEE My wife ............... keep the car or sell it. We really need the $450 a month car payment for other things. If we keep it, it will be my project car for life; i.e. 400whp cp-e car as opposed to a different car later in life (a few years at least).

Let me get this straight, you cant really afford to keep it because of the payment, but you can afford to pay the difference to build it and keep it?!?!

I think you have answered your own question.

Just say it like it is......
The wife told you to get rid of it cos she wants the $450 a month for "blank" (fill in the)
You are trying to talk her out of it by coming up with options, and want us to help you come up with good arguments for said "options", to put to "the wife" , so you can talk her out of the "sell it!" argument she is throwing at you.............

Good Luck!

Personally Id sell it.



Yeah I know......... I'm an asshole.

[ASIC_BSEE]

Originally Posted by FreeFlyFreak Let me get this straight, you cant really afford to keep it because of the payment, but you can afford to pay the difference to build it and keep it?!?! I think you have answered your own question. Just say it like it is...... The wife told you to get rid of it cos she wants the $450 a month for "blank" (fill in the)

Actually, the extra money would go into more savings and investment, which is definitely a better decision. The only thing is, I want to have a project car someday and will spend the money someday. I guess i'm kind of hooked on this car too. It was my first real quick car.

btw, you really didn't say anything that makes you an a$$hole!

[Smoke_31]

It's tough to answer your question as it depends on your personal circumstances.
I would sell and buy something else (Hyundai Genesis Coupe 3.8 perhaps).

[ASIC_BSEE]

Got the word today that the warranty company is authorizing the repairs including the teardown, a short block, and install.

[Smoke_31]

Good luck!

[Lex]

Glad it's covered. Please don't forget to send the rod and piston my way.

[ASIC_BSEE]

Originally Posted by Lex Glad it's covered. Please don't forget to send the rod and piston my way.

Will do once everything is clear here. Nice talking to ya the other day, btw. Wife gets pretty pissed when the baby is crying and i'm talking car stuff on the phone.....

[kwsmithphoto]

Do you still have all the stock parts?

If so, I'd give them to the dealer and have the whole things put back to stock.

Then sell the car in the name of domestic harmony. Nobody needs to know about the motor rebuild, just clean it up and get what you can for it.

And with the cash from selling off your CP-E bits, spend it on alcohol. You'll need something to help you through the transition back to sensible transportation.

[Lex]

Nice talking to you too and no worries about the wife and baby, car talk can wait, babies can't.

I am very surprised mobil1 burned up so badly in your motor and coated the oil rings with so much sludge. I've seen motors with synthetic that are clean as a whistle on the oil rings.

[ASIC_BSEE]

Originally Posted by Lex Nice talking to you too and no worries about the wife and baby, car talk can wait, babies can't. I am very surprised mobil1 burned up so badly in your motor and coated the oil rings with so much sludge. I've seen motors with synthetic that are clean as a whistle on the oil rings.

I mostly used amsoil full synthetic for the first 50k miles, then switched to Mobile 1. and used it for the last 10k miles. Amsoil is notorious for being the one of the best quality oils out there, so not sure where the sludge in the rings came from.