Mazdaspeed 3/6 UOA Results

[shpankey]

Originally Posted by hnda etr Can you explain what makes it better than say, M1 or Syntec...? Are other oils not "ester based" and what is that exactly? HTHS rating? NOACK? sorry, oil noob

HTHS = High Temperature High Shear rating. It's a measurement to inidicate how well an oil resists shearing in a high temperature stressful application. The higher the number the better. Oil's like Redline, Amsoil and various grades from various brands usually have a high rating. I believe over a 3.2 is to euro specs. Redline 10w40 that I'm running is like 4.6 or somewhere in there. That's VERY high. But basically this can help from your oil shearing out of grade. Our car's call for a 30weight, Pennzoil Platinum has a fairly low HTHS and it pretty much shears out of grade within 1k miles (down to a 20 weight). This is not necessarily as bad as it sounds, as PP UOA's prove out that they continue to provide a very high level of wear protection. So just one thing like HTHS isn't everything. It's just nice to have. Check out www.bobistheoilguy.com and read those forums and you will have all you will ever want to know. Over there, I'd be considered and infant newb. These guys are oil guru's.

NOACK is much more important for a car like ours where we have an issue of carbon buildup on the intake valves due to having a Direct Injected vehicle. Becase of this, gasoline never touches the intake valves and passes over it like other cars. This is important b/c fuel and their cleaning additives wash over them continually in other cars and keep them fairly clean. However, in our car, in around 15k miles you would simply not believe what the buildup on ours looks like. It can be hideous and this can affect performance. The only solution at that point is basically manually do it, requiring you to to do some serious mechanic work. There are solutions like BG but I've recently seen before and after pics of that process that pretty much proved it does next to nothing, despite their claims. There are preventitive measures however. An Oil Catch Can, can go a long way's in helping to prevent buildup. Another and IMO, the most significant, is getting an oil with a very low NOACK volatility rating. Volatization is what happens to the oil as it is heated to the point it begins to "boil off." You should probably just go google it at this point as it's much better said elsewhere than I could ever say it, but having very low volatility is known to help prevent intake valve deposits in D.I. cars like ours. So to me, when I say Redline (6% on some) or AMSOIL (%5.7 on some) are better oils, it's is mainly with these NOACK numbers in mind for OUR application. In a normal car, thishas a far less significant factor in determining oil than ours. In ours, it makes a big difference in long term care and performance of the car.

The reason I singled our Redline in particular is b/c it is an ester basestock oil. This is a Group V oil, the best known to man. We don't know what percent, but it's pretty well accepted them and Motul probably have the most (though I don't like Motul's NOACK rating). AMSOIL is thought to be a Group IV basestock oil with some Group V additives. To be honest, all of the oil companies mix differing amounts of different groups of oils. And generally, to most cars, the end result is the only thing that matters. Some Group III base oils are better than some that may use some Group IV. Again, it's all about the right mixtures and additive packages. Group III's do some things better than IV or V and vice versa. Solvency for one. But it's the end package. So like I said, the end results is what matters... except in our case it actually does matter a bit more if it's more of an ester (Gr-V) based oil b/c as I said earlier, each groups of oils do some things better than the others. Well, Group V just so happens to be much better at preventing volatizing and ending up sticking and burning onto the valves. Ester's seem to somehow just stay a sort of sticky mixture that can come off of the valves itself eventually. This is something speciallty oils like RLI came into play... trying to attack the D.I. issues using all these known things. I really don't like RLI's product though, expensive and again, it's the overall package. It just so happens Redline incidentally is built in a way that helps with D.I. and is a really great overall built oil too.

You also get cool benefits like esters sticking to engine internals better and longer, this helps on startups. It also is probably the best cleaning of all basestocks. Ester based oils like Redline will keep your internal ridiculously clean.

This is why the guys in the know factor in EVERYTHING. The car, the technology of the car matters, the drivers habits, the amount of idling, city, highway driving. Are you racing, are you towing. All of this all comes into play and if you know enough about all of these and about the available oils and their properties, you can make really wise decisions that will help address specific problems. As in our case.

So forgetting all else but the technology of the car, my recommendations would be...

Run a really great oil that has ester basestocks and a low NOACK. But that's not the best answer for YOU. Everyone's different and everything comes into play. But I would definitely keep the D.I. intake valve deposit issue high on your consideration.

Also, nyghtryder, both Pennzoil and Rotella are made by Shell, so not sure if you realized that since you said you hated Pennzoil... you're not doing them any harm really. ;P Though I will definitely concur with most everyone here, best bang for your buck, Rotella 5w40 and never look back. Price to performance ratio is off the charts.

my 2 copper's


Best regards

[nyghtryder]

well fml then...I refuse to support pensoil

guess ill be switching to redline soon.

[hnda etr]

Wow! Thanks for the info man!

[shpankey]

Originally Posted by nyghtryder well fml then...I refuse to support pensoil guess ill be switching to redline soon.

Don't forget to knock Quaker State of your list, and of course Shell.

But Redline is a wise, indeed VERY wise decision to drop in your DISI 2.3l Turbo. The only downside is cost. It is quite expensive. Online is about the only place you can get decent prices, if you buy a case. But the cost does sting. lol

One of the nice benefits I and others have seen is seeing a quite noticeable improvement in turbo spool. Those ester based oils are some slickery stuff and I noticed immediately more "pep in my step". I ran Rotella T6 before this and that is stout as hell, but Redline will be what I will use for now until something better comes along. That quick turbo spooling was quite impressive. And it really is a fantastic oil.

[nyghtryder]

where you buying redline from?

[hnda etr]

Originally Posted by nyghtryder where you buying redline from?

I think he mentioned earlier, from online...

[bova]

fuck redline, why waste the money when rotella t-syn runs great and probably half the cost?

[mazda.speed3]

Shpankey have you ran any oil samples on the redline?

[shpankey]

Not yet. Going to do a few runs first. As for where I bought it... last time was on Amazon mostly b/c I get free 2 day shipping. Though there are some other places online that will give u free shipping on orders over $100.

As for my reasons for Redline over the Rotella T6, which I've ran both, I think I've stated it very clearly already, above.

[hnda etr]

Holy Shit! Just googled the price of Redline 10w-40

$106.00 !!!!

Wow... this better fix the paint chips in my hood too...

Edit - this is for a case of 12 - basically 2 oil changes w/o the BSD

[hnda etr]

Originally Posted by shpankey Not yet. Going to do a few runs first. As for where I bought it... last time was on Amazon mostly b/c I get free 2 day shipping. Though there are some other places online that will give u free shipping on orders over $100. As for my reasons for Redline over the Rotella T6, which I've ran both, I think I've stated it very clearly already, above.

shpankey, any opinion on Royal Purple vs. Red Line vs. Amsoil? RP seems to be a bit cheaper, I'm just wondering if it's as good as RL and also how Amsoil fits in...

[shpankey]

Royal Purple is good oil. Do you have a particular viscosity in mind? Try to find the data sheets of it and post it's specs so we can have a look see.

[Frequentflyer]

If you run $8 a quart oil and still change it every 3k miles, you're insane. I bet you can run that Redline oil for 10k miles.

[hnda etr]

Originally Posted by shpankey Royal Purple is good oil. Do you have a particular viscosity in mind? Try to find the data sheets of it and post it's specs so we can have a look see.

I'm looking at 10w-40.... I ended up getting a case of Amsoil to try out.... We'll see how it does, lol...

[shpankey]

Who the heck is running Redline at online 3k mi.? Damn sure not me. lol It's definitely a LDI oil. Oh, and where are you getting Redline for $8? I want in on that!


The AMSOIL 10w40 will serve you well. Almost got it too. Low NOACK, high HTHS. I'd b/c a preferred customer if I were you though. It's what I did, saves a ton. I have a LOT of AMSOIL stuff out in the garage. Definitely will do well for you imo.

[hnda etr]

Originally Posted by shpankey Who the heck is running Redline at online 3k mi.? Damn sure not me. lol It's definitely a LDI oil. Oh, and where are you getting Redline for $8? I want in on that! The AMSOIL 10w40 will serve you well. Almost got it too. Low NOACK, high HTHS. I'd b/c a preferred customer if I were you though. It's what I did, saves a ton. I have a LOT of AMSOIL stuff out in the garage. Definitely will do well for you imo.

lol yeah! i signed up for the 6 month trial, and on oil and a filter, even with the $10 cost of the membership, it ended up saving me over $25! (would have been around $35, but take out the $10 for membership)

I also ordered a rear wiper blade, which no one but the dealer seems to have up till now...

[shpankey]

Nice!

If you do a couple runs (don't bother with a UOA on this run, as this oil will be doing a lot of cleaning) I'd love to see a 2nd, or 3rd run UOA on it. But you may want to go to 7.5k and UOA making sure you get a TBN too, to see where that's at, so we can tell how much further to take it out (or take out earlier if issue arises). Honestly, that oil can do that mileage no sweat, so don't bother unless you want to really bad and have cash. But it won't tell us much wear wise (probably elevated actually, due to the Groups 4, 5 doin their thang). But the TBN and TAN could be beneficial. Though I wouldn't waste a UOA there. Get it maybe on the 2nd run, but on the 3rd run for sure. We will have a nice clean UOA to start from. Make sure you get the TBN for sure, and the TAN would be nice too. You have a really great oil and it holds a lot of promise for us in my mind. Can't wait for results after awhile.

I'm going to do a 7.5k of Redline 10w40 pull it and put the same back in and do a 7.5k UOA w/ TBN & TAN and see where the oil's at and how much further I can take it out. The oil itself could mostly likely go past 10k miles easy, but it's always better to be safe, and it doesn't hurt to run one initial short 7.5k mile run to do some cleaning & refill w/ the same stuff and have a good clean %100 of your oil from scratch, coming in from behind itself to UOA with. Seeing it, then we can look how much further we can go out on the oil.

My choices are still wide open. I wanted to run the AMSOIL that hnda, is running (I almost did). I would also like to get (or see) a run of Royal Purple (XPR) [Extreme Performance & Racing] Synthetic Oil really bad. This is another great boutique oil that holds a lot of promise and is really customized nicely for a street rodder like me who will occasionally go tot he drags and loves to run the car hard in spurts.

I might also try Redline's low moly formula's, I have a feeling they will show better wear oddly enough. Just something I seen at BITOG where a guy ran 5w40 Redline (this is low moly) 4 times in a row then switched to a mix of 5w30 and 10w40 (both high in moly) and had startling results. Though we are near positive something else is at play, not the moly in the oil as it is an anti-wear additive, it's downside only being it can hurt cats.

Hope you're in for the long haul hnda. Now if we can just find someone to run Royal Purple XPS 3 or 4 times in a row and get a few UOA's on the last few. It would be great to compare and see how they all do. Also Motul 300v. I would love to see a run of it in our car. The scoobie guys favorite on their forum. Lots and lots of them guys run it with really nice results.

[shpankey]

p.s.

If anyone's wondering about warranty. I have 3 other vehicles that all run 5w30. So when I buy their oils, I don't buy them boutiques like the above. I use those receipts and save them along with my filter receipts from Wal-mart (I buy Motorcraft 2017B) filter in bulk and save that receipt. Keep all in my service log. My other cars are all out of warranty so this is perfect. I run any oil I want but have receipts of certified PCMO oil's along with filters for my car for service warranty requirements.

[nyghtryder]

Something that just came to mind is how are magnetic drain bolts affecting uoa's. I have used them in other cars and and wanting to do so in this one, but Im curious as to how much, if any its going to affect the uoa?

[shpankey]

IMO, not much of any, if at all. As long as you let the oil drain and catch your sample mid-stream, as you should be doing anyway, any surrounding metals collecting near the drain will have already washed out.

[hnda etr]

Originally Posted by shpankey IMO, not much of any, if at all. As long as you let the oil drain and catch your sample mid-stream, as you should be doing anyway, any surrounding metals collecting near the drain will have already washed out.

I just installed a magnetic drain bolt before my last oil change - and that's the oil change that I sent in for UOA..

I wasn't expecting to really see much, but there did end up being crap stuck to the magnet, which scares me.... That means that there's some type of iron or steel floating around in the oil, which has to be coming from the motor, right?

[shpankey]

Probably just normal break-in wear metals. I wouldn't worry about it. Post the UOA when you get it though!

p.s. what was the oil you used again? I guess it's possible it could be from just a poor oil.

[hnda etr]

Originally Posted by shpankey Probably just normal break-in wear metals. I wouldn't worry about it. Post the UOA when you get it though! p.s. what was the oil you used again? I guess it's possible it could be from just a poor oil.

Remember, my car had about 45K miles when I sent in the UOA, so I don't think it was wear in materials... I was using Rotella...

[shpankey]

hnda,

I've been recently talking with Chris, from AMSOIL, about our cars, and they recommended their 10w40 XL (extended life aka: XLO). I've been reading the specs on it and this is a pretty amazing oil for the price. It looks like it's a Group IV (PAO) basestock; not sure what group on additives though. If you become one of their preferred customers ($10 for 6 months); it has all the right numbers that I'm interested most in too...

AMSOIL 10w40 XL
NOACK: 5.7%
HTHS: 4.3
TBN: 9.0
PRICE: $5.30

I would be interested if anyone could find me another oil with those numbers at all. Other than Redline, which does equal those specs, but it's twice the price. Motul's 300v if I remember has a much higher NOACK, something I dearly wanted to keep low to help with the intake valve deposit issues with D.I. A low NOACK is a must for me! But for the price, I honestly don't think this oil can be touched. Those are some awesome specs. More here...

https://www.amsoil.com/storefront/xlo.aspx

I talked with MJ from Mobil 1 and they recommended M1 0w40. It's another Grp IV basestock (PAO), and I'm pretty sure it's Grp V add pack. But it's their only only oil that says European Formula on it... which is good b/c those are much tougher specs and they usually run longer OCI's over there. Hell of a cool guy btw. He sent me an awesome M1 stickers package. I put some on my car, very tasteful done though, and they are flat out gorgeous! I have pics btw. lol

I'd love to try out the Royal Purple XPR 10w40 but I can't find anything on it at all; and man is it expensive. The most expensive of the lot. But from what I've gathered it's Grp V base w/ Grp V add pack. So it's the real deal. But at $4 more than Redline, I'm finding it hard to justify. Their SAE oil's are great though. I know they're Grp IV base with Grp. V add pack. And the price is in line with Redline. Still, man would I love to see a triple run of 10w40 XPR w/ UOA's!

[hnda etr]

Originally Posted by shpankey hnda, I've been recently talking with Chris, from AMSOIL, about our cars, and they recommended their 10w40 XL (extended life aka: XLO). I've been reading the specs on it and this is a pretty amazing oil. It looks like it's a Group IV (PAO) basestock with Group V additives. If you become one of their preferred customers ($10 for 6 months); it has all the right numbers that I'm interested most in too... AMSOIL 10w40 XL NOACK: 5.7% HTHS: 4.3 TBN: 9.0 PRICE: $5.30 I would be interested if anyone could find me another oil with those numbers at all. Other than Redline, which does equal those specs, but it's twice the price. Motul's 300v if I remember has a much higher NOACK, something I dearly wanted to keep low to help with the intake valve deposit issues with D.I. A low NOACK is a must for me! But for the price, I honestly don't think this oil can be touched. Those are some awesome specs. More here... https://www.amsoil.com/storefront/xlo.aspx I talked with MJ from Mobil 1 and they recommended M1 0w40. It's another Grp IV basestock (PAO). Not sure on the additives. But it's their only only oil that says European Formula on it... which is good b/c those are much tougher specs and they usually run longer OCI's over there. Hell of a cool guy btw. He sent me an awesome M1 stickers package. I put some on my car, very tasteful done though, and they are flat out gorgeous! I have pics btw. lol

I looked at the XL, but I ended up going with the "premium" version of their 10w-40 (https://www.amsoil.com/storefront/amo.aspx) hopefully the spec are as good/better than the XL.....

[shpankey]

The AMO? Yeah, some are better, some are (very little) worse. I know one thing I like about that one though, the high zinc! That's a really great anti-wear additive. It can hurt cats over a long period but it would take a lot for a long time and I'm not concerned about the cats. Zinc is awesome to prevent wear and will turn up awesome UOA's with really low wear numbers.

NOACK is 6.7% btw. Very low. HTHS is 4.3 I believe.

Oh ya it costs a little bit more for AMO too. Nothing dramatic though.

[802MS3]

I'll have my third Penzoil Platinum 5w40 UOA with the TBN in the next week and half or so. Right now I have just over 6,000 miles on this oil.

[hnda etr]

Just changed my Castrol syntec 5w-40 today... Will be sending it in for UOA and TBN.

Installed an Amsoil oil filter, and used Amsoil's 10w-40... I plan on next oil change in 4500 miles, then another UOA...

Will post Syntec UOA when it gets in...

shpankey, what's TBN?

[shpankey]

TBN stands for Total Base Number. Basically it's how much active additive that's left in the oil. Blackstone considers an oil with a TBN of 1.0 or lower to be spent. TBN is weird it can start off high or medium high in an oil, it can go down fast to a certain point and then level out and take awhile after that.

Not many of us here are in any way pushing the TBN of these oils, so don't worry unless you start going over 7.5k miles and then it's a good thing to look at, especially if you are trying to extend out an oil in your car further. Which is really what tests like Blackstone are best at, testing the oil's condition, not your car's wear necessarily, though it can be sometimes helpful in that area.

[Ned'rland'r]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From left to right Factory Fill, MC 5w30 GC 0w30, Shell Rotella T Syn 5w40, Amsoil Euro 5w40, Bruce Blend 5w40, Mobil 1 Turbo Diesel Truck, Mobil 1 Turbo Diesel Truck, and RLI 5w40HDx2

Miles on Sample 1274 1750 4211 1376 4512 2936 3319 4051 4362
Iron 14 10 16 8 13 16 13 9 17 28
Chrom 0 0 1 0 0 1 0 1 1 2
Lead 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 1 2
Copper 187 75 114 40 13 6 4 4 98 109 (part of add pack, usually around 200 in VOA)
Tin 0 5 0 0 1 1 0 0 0 0
Alum 5 6 6 0 3 2 4 2 3 4
Nickel 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Silver 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Sil 59 19 10 5 3 3 4 3 3
Boron 6 154 28 5 52 18 47 36 5 1
Sodium 0 0 0 3 5 11 7 13 20 20
Magni 19 13 473 94 20 9 606 577 117 33
Calc 1706 2027 1931 3328 1843 1730 1282 1000 2726 2780
Barium 0 0 0 0 0 85 15 1 0 0
Phos 944 935 1006 1425 753 1428 1008 1013 1390 1399
Zinc 1044 1050 1115 1454 948 875 1102 1043 1600 1587
Moly 100 48 9 2 0 1 2 3 0 0
Titan 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Van 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Potas 0 0 0 0 2 2 1 1 0 0
Antim 0 0 0 0 2 2 0 0 111 162
Fuel% <1 <1 <1 <.5 0 0 <.1 .568 1.81 1.81
Visc @100c cst 9.06 8.59 10.87 12.8 11.73 11.68 11.9 12.8 13.2 12.4
Water% NA NA NA <.1 NA NA <.1 (KF) 724 577 423
Coolant NO NO NO NO NO <.1 0 0 0
Soot N/A N/A N/A <.1 NA NA <.1 0 .02 .03
TBN 4.84 5.14 6.04 9.48 3.25 4.79 3.83 6.1 7.4 4.2

Nitr N/A N/A N/A 15 NA 19 11 12 12
Oxid N/A N/A N/A 11 NA 20 20 138 157(STARTS AT 154, COMMON WITH ESTER BASED OILS)
Flash 380 260 260(WOULD BE ABOUT 310 OPEN CUP, STARTES AT 375 CLOSED CUP, 428 OPEN CUp)
TAN 3.24 NOT DETECTABLE DUE TO COLOR OF OIL AGAIN
VI 166 (starts at 167) 189 178(STARTS AT 189)

Certainly not impressive this round of RLI given its cost. However, I have been running it pretty hard at RPMs averaging 4K for a 6K OCI. Oil filter was a Pure1, which regretably didnt reduce soot from fuels blow by. However, on that one I have been experimenting with mixing for octane improvement and to lean the fuels so that could have contributed. Car sees mostly highway use for extended times and there is still fuel in the oil so heating doesnt get it all out. From the Sil #s cotton filters obviously dont let all that much dirt in with a well designed intake. Car is now at 35K miles, bone stock with no issues.

If the next OCI, which is being reduced to 5K miles doesnt improve significantly I will be moving to Rotella T5, maybe T6.

[RLS1400]

Pennzoil Platinum 5-30 45,000 mile oil change, with roughly 5,000 miles on oil.

This was the second oil change I used PP, before that I was Mobil 1.

At the 45,000 mile oil change I changed over to Pennzoil Ultra, and will get an analysis done when I hit around 51,000 miles which should be pretty soon.

[Frequentflyer]

Here's my latest. I hadn't gotten an analysis done in quite some time. The new Rotella T6 Syn 5w-40. Looks like all is well. I will continue to use the Rotella.

[shpankey]

Man, that Rotella just continues to impress.

[nyghtryder]

Heres the latest. Second sample on rotella t6 5w-40. LMK what you guys think.

[Frequentflyer]

Not bad. Strange that copper is so high. It's always been high, even from the get go. Time to drive that thing harder!

[nyghtryder]

i wish i could 3rd gear is damn near gone and i need to dedicate a weekend to going back to stock to get it fixed.

[802MS3]

Iron is up. Should I be scurrrred?

I did put my FMIC on back in April. I have a suspicion that I might be running lean in the 3-4k rpm range. Should probably get a tune I guess. I also think I should stop running my oil this long. I'm going to change it again at 3500-4000 miles and see whats up.

[Frequentflyer]

What kind of oil is that? Are you intercooler pipes steel?

[802MS3]

Originally Posted by Frequentflyer What kind of oil is that? Are you intercooler pipes steel?

Same oil I've been using, PP 5w-40. IC pipes are aluminum? I think; its the cp-e kit.

[hnda etr]

Been 3 weeks since I sent in my last Sample to blackstone, and no word... Looks like USPS lost it or something...

At least it wasn't the Amsoil sample...