Me Too! Maybe.... engine ticking...

[JimmyMac]

Well I might be added to the blown engine club. Or maybe I just caught it in time. Today, on the way to work, I went WOT in 2nd gear at 4000rpms. Did my shift points around 6000rpms through 4th gear. Just a normal day as I do almost every day on the way to work. GT2871R at 20psi on the SB. Todays peak was 19.8psi on that run (GReddy Profec recorded). Anyways, after the run, I slowed down as I was coming up to a stop light. Clutch pedal felt funny. I could feel vibrations in the pedal. I turned off the music. I could hear my engine ticking. Parked the car at work. Engine tick sounds like the ticking I got when I spun a bearing in japan in my EP71. But the clutch pedal has weird vibs. Checked engine oil after work. Oil was midway between full and low/add. Before I started the car back to head home, I added 1/2 quart of oil. Now dip stick read full. I am using the WOT box. Today I did launch the car from a stop sign. I launched from idle, shifted early into 2nd to reduce wheel spin (yeah right), and went on through 3rd. No problems. About 2-3hours later this happens.

Anyways, the car is parked and will not be driven until I figure it all out. I'm gonna try and pull the oil pan off this weekend. And maybe the tranny if I have time. I'll take pics if/when I do.

Side note: I knew what I was getting into when I bought this car to mod (yes I bought this car to mod, otherwise I would of kept my 05 Mz3 with extended warranty). I knew the risk of blowing the motor with a fully bolted engine with stock bottom end. And I expected it. And NO, I'm not parting everything out. I'm in this for the long haul. I just didn't expect it to last this long! haha

[Breakdown81]

sounds like youre in a perfect spot to park the car for a minute and order those upgraded rods. it might be expensive, but someone is going to have to do something at some point to solve this issue.


Itll be cheaper than punching a hole through your block anyways.

[JimmyMac]

Yeah, I was wanting to do my rods around either Thanksgiving or Xmas break. Looks like I'm forced to do it Thanksgiving (if I can get rods, and if the crank isn't messed up or anything else). Plus gotta figure out the vib issue, etc etc. I guess I should consider myself lucky not to have a hole in my block. Like you said... it'll be cheaper this way...

[oskinosmee]

Yea i think i got those vibes but the vibes dont increase at all.
Engine ticks? like the normal tick?

[JimmyMac]

Tick like uhhh.... Very audible. Sounds like one of your valves are out of adjustment or it's tapping on the cylinder head. Or just say tick tick tick tick tick out loud. It sounds just like that. The faster your engine revs, the faster the tickticktickticktick, the slower the rpms, the slower the tick tick tick tick tick.

If your car is all stock, have the dealer check it out.

[y2kc0wb0y]

http://www.northerntool.com/images/p.../160875_lg.jpg
Locate the noise

[gsrtype1]

Damm bro I hope its something minor.. sorry to hear.

[phailerider]

The night before my engine blew.....Laloosh was standing over the engine and made a notice of a ticking my engine was making. we were concerned it may have been the fuel pump acting up.... no idea what it was. but next day....boom.

Loosh even said he told his girl on the way home that night that he thought something bad was gonna happen.

Beware the ominous ticking!!!!

[mrlilguy157]

ticks increasing/decreasing with rpm = something influenced by rotating assembly, causing excessive vibrations through the crank. crank 'walk' maybe or a bent rod causing the TDC of the piston to not match the corresponding cyliner = complete throwoff of the balance of the assembly.

[JimmyMac]

I'm guessing bent rod. Hopefully I'll know more when I start to pull the engine apart this weekend.

I do suspect something though. About a week or two ago I had an unusual boost spike of 30.8psi. I don't know why/how this happened. And it happened on a road I normally go WOT almost every day. So maybe this was a catalyst for things to come. But I'm just glad I don't have a hole in the block. I'm hoping bent rod. We'll see.

[silversurfer3]

[wisniaPl]

wtf is going on with those cars?? it make me not to mod anymore

[Strytnyne]

Originally Posted by wisniaPl wtf is going on with those cars?? it make me not to mod anymore

their pushing the limits of the stock rods =(

[Laloosh]

well pushign 30.8 psi on a gt28 will def do some damage. Can you please record this ticking on video so we all have an idea of what it sounds like. 12 hours before randys car blew i heard a wierd noise while the car was reving down....i mentioned it to randy and the cpe guys and they all thought it was the fuel pump....ehh i said ok who knows, but like randy said told rose that i think its gonna let go soon...sure enough, the next morning i got a phone call.

Record the noise, my engine ticks, but its the fuel pump. Put a screw driver on each intake and exahust mani runner as well as above each spark plug and listen for noises through the screw driver. My engine sounds pretty much the same everywhere untill i put it on the fuel pump...then its sounds like all hell....so im not worried

[JimmyMac]

I'll try and record the sound this weekend when I move the car under the drive port. I'll borrow my dads cell phone since it does video. But anyone who has this sound would know. Hell, anyone driving next to you on the highway would know. Very embarrassing. haha

[ASIC_BSEE]

Jimmmy, note the rpms as exactly as you can when you record the ticking. I can determine the frequency of the ticking from your recording, then we can compare to the rpms and determine if it is valve related.

[gsrtype1]

that one dude on hear can't remeber his name he had the tick too its on vid

[JimmyMac]

Will try, it'll be at idle, but I'll get the reading off of the DH. And I'm not gonna do this for long. The more I run the engine, the riskier it gets with tossing a rod out the block. In fact, I'll do part of the recording with the cam pointing at the tach. Then you guys can dissect it if you want. I'll rev the engine alittle too to give you a general idea of how the ticking increases with rpms. More than likely, this will be done sometime Saturday. Then I can upload the vid to my PhotoBucket account and link it here.

But simply put, go outside, start your car. Then take a quarter and start tapping the hood of your car. That's what it sounds like. (Of course if you tapped your hood with a quarter, then you'll probably chip the paint hehe.)

[JimmyMac]

Originally Posted by gsrtype1 that one dude on hear can't remeber his name he had the tick too its on vid

Exactly.

[gsrtype1]

It was ms3guy22 I pretty sure he had a vid of his engine ticking and his engine blew..

[94jedi]

fawk, you guys are scaring me. I know I'm mildly bolted but still, it's getting iffy around the 330+ whp mark. I know most of you guys that have blown were at or above the 350 whp point but if rods are bending, who know when exactly they start to go. I'll really panic if we start hear the worked k04 guys complaining about blown motors.

[ASIC_BSEE]

Originally Posted by 94jedi fawk, you guys are scaring me. I know I'm mildly bolted but still, it's getting iffy around the 330+ whp mark. I know most of you guys that have blown were at or above the 350 whp point but if rods are bending, who know when exactly they start to go. I'll really panic if we start hear the worked k04 guys complaining about blown motors.

It's not 330 whp or 350 whp. For IDRVSLO it was closer to 300 whp. Power isn't the main issue. It's got to be the closed loop to open loop transition and pre-ignition and/or detonation. On a newly reset ECU, the fuel trims aren't adjusted enough to keep the car rich under boost, even mild boost. As soon as you start pushing the gas pedal its still at stoic, especially if you haven't given the car enough ignition cycles and driving time to get the trims right. Look at the dyno graphs for a car that was just reset, AFR reacts so damn slow, that it doesn't even get to 12.5 til 3500-4500 rpms. Take this and a newly reset ECU and you get pre-ignition one time, you just broke a rod.

Read this:Detonation vs. Pre-Ignition - 3000GT/Stealth International Message Center

Lean AFR, hot engine, can ignite the gas at BDC. Maybe even throw in a burnt valve or improperly seated exhaust valve to supply the ignition source. Hell, maybe even all the carbon build-up on the intake valves is acting as a glow plug.

I really don't think it can be the balance shaft. If anything, the balance shaft connection is creating a hard point at cylinder #3. If it has to go somewhere it will go in the spot with the least give. The balance shaft is creating a torsional force against the crankshaft, nothing else.

[melan47]

does anyone have a sparkplug pic out of one of the blow engines? could changing the plug from a colder to hotter or vise versa help in this situation or is this problem too drastic to be aided by a plug change on this level of failure? again me thinking out loud. i am book taught on engine mechanics so slap me if i out of line.

[94jedi]

Originally Posted by ASIC_BSEE It's not 330 whp or 350 whp. For IDRVSLO it was closer to 300 whp. Power isn't the main issue. It's got to be the closed loop to open loop transition and pre-ignition and/or detonation. On a newly reset ECU, the fuel trims aren't adjusted enough to keep the car rich under boost, even mild boost. As soon as you start pushing the gas pedal its still at stoic, especially if you haven't given the car enough ignition cycles and driving time to get the trims right. Look at the dyno graphs for a car that was just reset, AFR reacts so damn slow, that it doesn't even get to 12.5 til 3500-4500 rpms. Take this and a newly reset ECU and you get pre-ignition one time, you just broke a rod. Read this:Detonation vs. Pre-Ignition - 3000GT/Stealth International Message Center Lean AFR, hot engine, can ignite the gas at BDC. Maybe even throw in a burnt valve or improperly seated exhaust valve to supply the ignition source. Hell, maybe even all the carbon build-up on the intake valves is acting as a glow plug. I really don't think it can be the balance shaft. If anything, the balance shaft connection is creating a hard point at cylinder #3. If it has to go somewhere it will go in the spot with the least give. The balance shaft is creating a torsional force against the crankshaft, nothing else.

Thanks for the info...So it's the transition spot then.

[ASIC_BSEE]

Originally Posted by 94jedi Thanks for the info...So it's the transition spot then.

That's a theory...

Another thing I forgot to add is the ECU always does an EGR dump right when you go open loop. I found a thread on the other (bad) forum that talks about EGR dump right after giving the car gas. I stole the picture:

So, if the car was warmed up nice and hot and exhaust gases run ~800 deg F, couldn't the EGR dump add enough heat to the boost air temp to increase the chance of pre-ignition? I know the EG has virtually no oxygen under WOT, but from cruise to acceleration, AFRs can be higher than stoic on a newley reset ECU and provide nothing but a heat transfer to the air in the cylinder.

Just a thought.

[Laloosh]

wow, some1 that agrees with me...ive been saying it for months, but i guess i must have a freak of car that hasnt blown up yet...and wont

[Renzokuken]

Originally Posted by Laloosh wow, some1 that agrees with me...ive been saying it for months, but i guess i must have a freak of car that hasnt blown up yet...and wont

Hey, what year is your MS3? Mine is an 07 and I have yet to have any smoking,ticking,idle, or CEL issues with my car, im well over 30K, just curious.

[Laloosh]

07 with 30.5k

[Renzokuken]

Originally Posted by Laloosh 07 with 30.5k

Meh, maybe were just lucky, or we keep good maintenence. Keep those fingers crossed. You run meth, i run 100 octane, maybe that helps a little. Im gona switch to meth thought cause 100 is getting a bit expensive.

[ASIC_BSEE]

I'm at 40k and no issues other than shitloads of KR at 3k rpms (no load) and am getting the VTC TSB done on Tuesday. Maybe that is triggering the knock sensor....fuck no.

[slo4now]

Originally Posted by Renzokuken Meh, maybe were just lucky, or we keep good maintenence. Keep those fingers crossed. You run meth, i run 100 octane, maybe that helps a little. Im gona switch to meth thought cause 100 is getting a bit expensive.

Use TORCO Race fuel additive unleaded, i use it year around.
Its alot cheaper than buying 100octane.
I buy it by the 5Gallon pail, just 16 ounces to the tank gives
you 100octane gas,32 ounces to the tank gives you 104octane.
Big difference when i go from 93 octane to the torco additive, just give the
ecu time to adjust to the octane and it will feel like it picked
up about 30 or 40hp. No joke im serious. i think its from the added timing.





I buy it from Eastern Race Fuels .

[JimmyMac]

Originally Posted by Laloosh wow, some1 that agrees with me...ive been saying it for months, but i guess i must have a freak of car that hasnt blown up yet...and wont

Try boosting to 30.8psi for 2nd, 3rd, and 4th gear haha. I'm starting to think that's the only reason mine is starting to go. But hopefully I'll know more about the damage this weekend. I think if I didn't over boost a few weeks ago, I would still be fine today. Knock has never been over .4. AFR at WOT has been below 12. Fuel pressure has been fine. Only the occasional cut in 3rd and 4th which I think might be the MAF maxed out. I dunno. The Mazda gods saved my block.

[Renzokuken]

Originally Posted by slo4now Use TORCO Race fuel additive unleaded, i use it year around. Its alot cheaper than buying 100octane. I buy it by the 5Gallon pail, just 16 ounces to the tank gives you 100octane gas,32 ounces to the tank gives you 104octane. Big difference when i go from 93 octane to the torco additive, just give the ecu time to adjust to the octane and it will feel like it picked up about 30 or 40hp. No joke im serious. i think its from the added timing. I buy it from Eastern Race Fuels .

Hmmmm..... Can anyone else chime in on this?

[94jedi]

Originally Posted by Renzokuken Hmmmm..... Can anyone else chime in on this?

yea, I'd like to hear what others think as well. I've read in many places that 99% of octane boosters raise octane a few tenths only. Even toluene (sp?) doesn't do a great job.

after a little searching, I found some more info:

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=404630
http://www.need4speedpower.com/

[mdogg]

Originally Posted by ASIC_BSEE That's a theory... Another thing I forgot to add is the ECU always does an EGR dump right when you go open loop. I found a thread on the other (bad) forum that talks about EGR dump right after giving the car gas. I stole the picture: So, if the car was warmed up nice and hot and exhaust gases run ~800 deg F, couldn't the EGR dump add enough heat to the boost air temp to increase the chance of pre-ignition? I know the EG has virtually no oxygen under WOT, but from cruise to acceleration, AFRs can be higher than stoic on a newley reset ECU and provide nothing but a heat transfer to the air in the cylinder. Just a thought.

It would be interesting to see if someone could do some logs including EGR data, then delete/plug the EGR and repeat to see if there is any measurable difference in boost temps or KR...

I already deleted the EGR, so I can't comment on the "before" part for any real comparison.

I still think it's more of the closed>open lean and delayed transition though...

[ASIC_BSEE]

Originally Posted by mdogg It would be interesting to see if someone could do some logs including EGR data, then delete/plug the EGR and repeat to see if there is any measurable difference in boost temps or KR... I already deleted the EGR, so I can't comment on the "before" part for any real comparison. I still think it's more of the closed>open lean and delayed transition though...

I can probably work this out. I can data log EGR and EGT, but can't log KR. I guess If I throw in ignition timing advance that should indicate response to knock.

[ASIC_BSEE]

mdogg, can you post a pic of where I disable the EGR?

[JimmyMac]

Sorry, still haven't touched my car. I'm actually in no rush since I'm waiting on the Pauter rods to be made/designed for the stock pistons. Plus I'm busy with work and getting ready for midterms/papers. Maybe next weekend when there is no school/work due to holiday weekend. If I can catch up on my papers, then I'll get them done sooner.

[LBV]

Originally Posted by JimmyMac Try boosting to 30.8psi for 2nd, 3rd, and 4th gear haha. Knock has never been over .4. AFR at WOT has been below 12.

Did you have a knock retard warning when you boosted to 30+? In theory you should have had KR at that high boost but just wondering if you noticed any.

[JimmyMac]

In the 30 psi instance, I dunno. I was just doing my normal driving at the normal time on a normal road. So I didn't bother keeping track of anything at the time since I do it just about every day. I only noticed things were weird when I shifted 2nd to 3rd and then 3rd to 4th and heard a very quick and short PSH or PST sound. I have a WOT box, so it's usually dead silent between shifts or the car back fires. But for this instance I had the very very very quick blow off sound between shifts (which I thought was very odd). When I looked down at the GReddy boost gauge when I shifted into 4th, it was flashing 308 which means 30.8psi was the boost just recorded. My DH didn't have any warnings. But I'm not sure if I have KR set under warnings or not. But I'll probably set it next time. Anything over .4 KR. Driving home with the ticking sound was pretty funny. My KR would be 0 then 8.... then 0.... then 8.

But when I have monitored the car before, KR was usually 0 or .4. Boost spikes are normally 21-22psi controlled via SB. I was prepping to mess with the boost map before this happened. I guess I'll have to wait til after I check things out.

So pending on the Pauter rods will depend when I pull the engine apart. I would rather have parts here ready and waiting to be installed, rather than the engine torn apart and sitting there for a few weeks/months waiting for parts to come in.

But I will try and get the engine sound recording done here within a few days. I just haven't been motivated these past few days with all the rain and tornado's running around. Although, today is a nice day, but I'm working on homework right now.