MZR DISI Heat Management
 

So with all the recent documented ringland failures [mine included], along with quite a few that are suspected to be failures due to low compression tests, I thought it was time to explore better heat management and hope to gather all the pertinent information in one thread.

This is probably better suited for OEM shortblocks but having a cooler running motor can't hurt in any form be it forged or otherwise.

It would seem we have progressed past the point of widespread rod failure on the OEM block due to advanced tuning tools along with the knowledge we have learned over the years. Now ringland failure is becoming the predominate failure mode de jour.

In my case in particular, it was caused by the #1 ring butting and snapping its lower land. I was aggressively tuning the car in Aug 2012 summer heat at over 100* AMB with multiple WOT runs. I am positive the heat generated during that time is the root cause of the trouble.

My car typically runs all year long at 217-220 ECT and the fan will not come on below 217ish and/or only when the car is shut off, whichever comes first.

I want this thread to serve as both an information gathering thread as well as provide possible solutions, both short and long term.

I think there are two things that need to be addressed initially and more involved projects as required by the type of driving involved.

1) Cooler tstats
2) Fan control

and more involved

3) oil coolers
4) larger cap rads

I know @superskaterxes; put this thread together on his tstat and aux fan controller which I have not yet read but looks like a good place to start for information gathering and solution possibilities.

http://www.mazdaspeedforums.org/foru...ml#post1491287

This is all I have time to post up now but feel free to chime in with ideas and I'll keep the OP updated.
@doubleflusher;
@Lex;
@Ziggo;
@silvapain;
@phate;
@Tomas;
@06Speed6;
@BlueStreak;
@Fobio;

my ECT never breaks 200 (and i mean NEVER, no matter how hot or how much traffic im sitting in). My fans come on at 200 and off at 174/183 depending on ambient temp. Ive had this setup for 40k miles with zero problems.

running your motor at 220 is WAYY too high IMO esp if your doing wot runs.


you dont want to run a cooler Tstat because then you ECU tables will get fucked up from not operating in the correct range. Same goes with a larger radiator, you might not even be able to get the heat to blow in the winter lol

FYI From my build thread...thanks guys

Before people start fagging this informative thread up:
http://www.mazdaspeedforums.org/foru...1&d=1363025538

Isn't there only like one larger radiator for this car?

ID like Drew to list what cooling parts he is running on his car. I think he runs a dual fan setup and diff radiator.

word...I will promptly delete any "subbed" posts :)

I tagged the one that flushes twice

what about the plugs? do they have any play at all in this?

unlikely...they can't really control the heat soak of the entire motor like the tstat, fans, rad can. FWIW I was running 1 step colder plugs and DO10 100% meth when mine went.

My plan was to run the Koyorad radiator with an additional fan with the Derale setup like Anythony, with a manual switch too.

This was just a plan that has not be implemented yet.

In the past, on other cars, I always ran a larger, more efficient radiator.

Edit: A large oil cooler was in the plans too.

There are many variables to consider.

We are asking the cooling package to handle almost 100% more heat rejection in cars making 400whp.

Consider some of the following:

- Power means heat. No way around it. The more power you make, the faster the engine will heat up, the more you heat you have to remove.

- Your driving style and location play a big role. If you track the car, a BT 400whp car with no cooling changes won't last. If you do pulls here and there that's a different story. This is extremely important to grasp.

- Detonation is related to heat and heat will cause detonation - all of which are bad for the ringlands.
- Just because a certain fuel doesn't detonate (E85) doesn't mean that you are rejecting enough heat to keep the motor together when running leaner.
- Cooling the charge via WMI may prevent detonation but again, it may not be enough to remove heat from the combustion chamber.
- The cheapest way to add cooling to the combustion chamber is to run richer. Combustion temperature peaks at 14.7 AFR and drops on either side of that (lean or rich)
- Consider an oil cooler, upgraded radiator, better heat rejection for the motor, not just the charged air through the intercooler or WMI. A lower T-stat may help out with cruise temperatures but at extended WOT, if the radiator can't reject enough heat, the T-stat won't solve the issue.
- Instead of turning up the boost consider improving the volumetric efficiency of the motor by reducing pumping losses. For example, instead of turning up the boost a couple of psi you can make that same power at a lower boost level with a well flowing intake and exhaust setup.

I will leave this here showing the heat distribution map across a typical piston.

If you guys REALLY want a colder t-stat...
We replace these things all the time for sticking open. Never stick closed for whatever reason..

At any rate, the engine runs no warmer than ~170 with one of these "faulty" thermostats. Cool enough to cause a P0128/P0126.

Used thermostat=Colder thermostat! Can't beat the price either. :arms:

(obviously I'm referring to testing purposes only, just to see if running >170F would be positive in any way)

O6 speed6 on stock thermostat and it cycles at 180, dropping temps back to ~174 which is the normal cruising value, winter or summer.

This is with FMIC, and air management mods to bring temps back to stock values.

I removed the upper ducting for no longer installed TMIC duct, and added a lower valence to prevent air moving under the car from pulling air that should be forced through the rad


Gave me an excuse to finally post the pics - http://www.mazdaspeedforums.org/foru...cooler-140143/

@Dano; do you have pictures of the undersides of your pistons? Maybe your skirts and ringlands too?

EDIT: Are our OEM pistons forged steel or forged aluminum? And I assume that most forged engines use forged aluminum pistons?

Our pistons are hypereutectic cast aluminum cooled by oil jets,

has anyone ever ran the AWR radiator on their ms6? notice any lower ects?

Radiator - Mazdaspeed6 2.3 Turbo Competition - 6504T - AWR Racing Store

Thanks Lex-
Had to wiki that one :)

Maybe it's a genwan thing but atvfeeak indicated he sees them running 200ect before a run and right now at 47* AMB I am running 210 w zero wot. I will hit 217 soon.

Could totally be my tstat is a POS. idk.

Good place for me to start is w a new OEM one I guess.


Tappin

Yes your tstat has an issue. During mild weather cruising you should be between 180-187* F. Maybe this was indeed part of the initial failure in your motor.

For what its worth varified Via Ultra-gauge:

1. Removing the rear weather stripping
2. Drilling out the dead space behind the front "Mazda" emblem on the front bumper.
3. removing stock intake ducting crap

All this on a Gen 2 was worth 7* cooler coolant temps and 5* cooler IAT's, (and thats in a South Texas Summer) car was sitting about 192* Coolant temps and settled about 183* - 185* afterwards.

Also, those with front mounts (on the Gen2 at least) I have found that leaving the stock top mount ducting in place results in better cooling, because it focuses the air on the cylinder head instead of letting it disperse around the engine bay. This was only worth 2-3* so its hard to truely quantify, but it makes enough sense that i've chosen to leave it in.

Very possible but that doesn't explain why my fan doesn't come on till 217 ish. Is that normal ?


Tappin

that is normal per the WSM

So Lex brings another great point that should not be overlooked, I ran my car richer than most on my "track" the tune, at high RPMs it's around 11 AFR.

From my experience it's the oil that gets overheated more severely than the coolant. I have an alarm set on my coolant temp to go off at 225* and on track I would reach what I would consider excessive oil temperatures (260*) prior to this alarm going off. This points to the oil/coolant exchanger being undersized.Mind you this is at 330ish whp not anywhere near 400, and I had clean air at the track most of the time.

Before my offspring put things on hold it was my intention to upgrade the cooling capacity of the oil system first, in hopes that it would address the oil temp directly and address the overall cooling capacity significantly enough to help the radiator as well.

Zigatapatalka

Well, it wouldn't be that hard to have a new radiator made that would contain a larger oil cooler AND power steering cooler integrated into it.

People like Corksport, Fluidyne, HTP, etc could pull this off. Wont be cheap, but its certainly doable.

Wow i just read up on pistons that are hypereutectic cast, and its like Mazda knew that they would become a weak point, especially if caster added to much silicon...then the ratio of silicon to aluminum would be off and make them more brittle! And wouldn't have been worth just a few more dollars a rod to get them forged!?! I would have paid $500-$1000 more for the car, knowing that my rods could handle higher boost levels and more heat, and stress.

flash from the way back machine :) @MATT DAMOND;

http://www.mazdaspeedforums.org/foru...why-yes-56645/

Or this one from @Joe Isuzu;

http://www.mazdaspeedforums.org/foru...led-oil-73457/

Why not try to add a larger capacity oil system instead of all the work to further cool the current setup?

I agree with Lex on running a bit richer for track runs where heat is an issue compared to doing a couple pulls on the highway.

Bringing down air temps is great but combustion temps are even more important.

While running richer is commonly known as a result of loss in power, it may actually help you here.

Is there a way to control the fan on/off with atr?

Not at this time

A larger sump would be great for track use. Maybe something around 9L with a BSD. If the pan also had a mounting location for an electric pump to run parallel cooling I think that would be the best solution. The pump can be controlled with a temp switch.

With the rad fan, does anyone know what type of signal the ECU uses to turn it on and off. For track events I disconnect the AC then I push the AC button to turn the fans on earlier but I would like to force them to run high speed on command without messing with anything.

Dano even with a constant steady form of cooling the ring gaps will still be a problem. Just now instead of ~400whp as the track limit it may be ~425whp. Either way I don't think may people will notice a huge difference in times running say ~350whp from a BT. On a road course you can make the time up somewhere else, and save a bit on tires with the lower power.

In a track scenario how much does running the heater on full blast help? I've seen a lot of the old school racers I run with do this. I know this doesn't apply to daily driving I'm just more curious.

Wouldn't a BSD help this?

Maybe we can get someone to run a bunch of logs that has 200*+ temps then have them remove the balance shaft, run more test and see if a few more quarts disperses heat better.

Each test, run new oil or at least of similar break-down.

I'm don't think this will actually help.

Most people do think that after removing the balance shaft, the oil pan now holds ~7 quarts of oil.

In reality, there is always roughly ~7 quarts of oil in the system. The balance shaft is known to prevent about ~1 quart of oil from draining during oil changes thus the recommendation of adding 1 extra quart if you have a BSD.

By the time I thought to try this on my last trackday, my clutch was already so slippery I said, "Fuck it" and parked it for the rest of the day (for fear of not being able to get home if I pushed things much further)...

It'd be nice to see if anyone has ever done any empiric testing they could share. :dunno:

Only way you will get more oil is with a larger pan.. you need to be careful with ground clearance and also, you need a windage tray.

That would be easy enough. I've seen a lot of set-ups where they "pancake" the oil pan so it is wider in both directions, without being closer to the ground. Kind of like this:
http://www.cnc-motorsports.com/media...0A-OIL-PAN.jpg

You're on to something there though. More oil = more time for the oil to cool before it is sucked up by the pump again. Could we not just open up ring gaps a small amount to help prevent this? Or will that be detrimental to normal operation?

People are thinking very exotic here. The first things I would do HARDWARE wise are:

- Direct more airflow towards the radiator. FMICs don't help. Some shrouding might but you have to be careful with what you're doing.
- Install a larger radiator.
- Install an oil cooler with a thermostat and -10an lines.

Running the header will help. It's just another radiator with a fan on it. It won't be comfortable though.

That would be a great design. The pump pickup would have little chance to starve. There is also room on the passenger side to extend the pan as well.

On the 6's, we have an underbody piece that "scoops" air into the radiator. I don't remember that on my 3, can someone verify? Forcing air into the radiator, rather than allowing it to escape around it could be helpful and easy (and cheap).

Never seen the scoop on the 6

Remove tmic replace with tmoc.

Sent from my frontal cortex.

I'll take a pic of it later if everyone thinks I'm crazy lol.

running 25/70 mix of coolant to water does wonders on the stock setup in the summer, even with a fmic.

also, its probably a good idea to run the stock "FL22" coolant or an equiv like Zerex for "Asian" (lol) cars.

with my fmic in the summer, in traffic and lower speeds my ect's would climb into the 21X and sometimes 220s, putting the heat on brought it down

cruising at 50+ for a few minutes also helped bring the temps down

I will be installing a koyo in a week or so. Will probably change the T-stat too

I really was thinking about this, only thing holding me back was the long lines it would require and the additional pressure drop in the traditional sandwich plate setup. With a secondary mocal pump it would be very doable.

Maybe slap an additional radiator up there? It won't be as effective as the one up front but there really is a ton of area. Bleeding would be a bitch too.

Zigatapatalka

Run an external pump in parallel.

woah...this is going all over the place...lol not sure that was my intent so maybe categorizing the suggestions is a good idea. I like exotic as much as the next guy but lets crawl before we walk, before we run :)

Stage I:

I wanted to mainly explore resolving what I thought were two OEM deficiencies in controlling more heat generated by higher HP than Mazda intended. I thought this could be resolved in the tstat and fan control alone, but it may be the tstat is ok and mine is just not functioning properly.

I think doing only what Anthony did will resolve the majority of guys issues with a "stage I" heat management upgrade. This would be for DD and light track/tuning scenarios. I don't track my car but my tuning along with a bad tstat and fan that won't come on below 217 was the end of the story for my 1st motor.

so lets see if we can categorize some upgrades, tuning modifications not withstanding i.e. richer AFR.

Stage I:

1) Upgraded Tstat [possibly]
2) Aux fan control

Stage II:

Stage I + oil cooler

Stage III:

Stage I & II + larger cap rad

Does this sound like a logical progression in terms of order of progression. ease, cost and usefulness of each stage?

I'm going to add into this. I am currently having a temp control issue. My fan will not come on until my coolant has reached 215+ sometimes it'll wait until 220+. Those temps are during "normal" operation. Also temps will stay above 190 while cruising. That is definitely too high for my comfort.

I will be replacing my tstat and doing the aux fan w/ manual switch, hopefully in the next couple of weeks.

I'm definitely interested in some of the ideas for engine cooling in this thread.

I think it would also be worth investigating if a shroud above the radiator would help direct more air thru the core. I have a feeling that removing the ducts by the grill (genwon) causes the air to go up and over rather than thru the radiator

Especially if you have removed the rubber strips like most of us have.

Also thermal management under the hood needs to be considered (header wrapping, turbo blankets etc) need to keep as much out as possible imo

Sounds logical to me, but some of these things can have drawbacks on daily driven cars, which should be mentioned in favor of "full disclosure".

You should add an oil t-stat as a suggestion with the oil cooler as Lex mentioned, because otherwise there is a chance that the oil will never get up to temp on shorter trips. Larger rad and a "cooler" t-stat will cause a similar problem with the coolant. Remember that many engine parts are designed to work in a specific range of temperatures. Too hot is bad, but so is too cold.

Track dudes have a different concept of exotic and a fundamentally different problem. The OEM system simply cannot reject enough heat and anything other than adding radiative capacity is just beating around the bush.

For everyone else I would suggest monitoring via oil temperature gauge and setting an alarm on coolant temperature. If your coolant temperatures do not fall below 210 after extended cruising on the highway, even on a 100deg day, replace the Thermostat. If you want to be safe, don't run the motor hard with oil temps at 250+ or ECTs above 220.

Fan control and lower temp tstats will make marginal benefits. We are not butting rings sitting at idle, we are having issues at 80+ mph pulls with the (if working correctly) thermostat already open.

I should note that I am not fully convinced it is a ring butting issue. While the OEM gaps are small, the piston also expands less with heat. It also clearly has to do with the power level and it is possible that the rings are not butting and that at the higher piston temperatures it has reduced fatigue tolerance making it a cylinder pressure problem as well. The solution is still the same either way, a cooler motor and cooler oil will cool the pistons better, but I would not suggest just using OEM pistons with bigger gaps.

Zigatapatalka

I would think some shroud modification should be added to stage one. If we can indeed see a couple of degrees drop in temp from said modification then it is worth categorizing. I think finding a standard for this modification as well as the already mention stage one parts (fan control, etc) would make a significant difference. This platform has indeed mastered the art of pulling power out of the cars anus, pulling a few ideas together to assist in cooling efficiency can only help the reliability factor. I think Corksport, JBR, CP-E could profit from offering an oil cooler upgrade vs the current oem coffee can cooling container we currently run.

Now that you mention an oil temp gauge, do our engines have an oil temp sensor or oil pressure sensor at all? I've never seen or read anything about one, but I'm curious if we can get some oil temp or pressure readings via dashhawk/AP/etc., without the hassle of
installing a "real" gauge.

Honestly, even if you don't track your car, this is extremely good info to have. In fact, it's probably more important than most of the parameters all of us are viewing on our dataloggers.

I just got dont reading through this and I dont recall anyone saying higher cfm fans to replace the factory ones.

From what I've read so far, these are the things that peek my interest:

1. TMOC - I wanted to run it there...not cuz of the typical Subie install, but to take advantage of underhood ducting...with the Cobb FMIC, there isn't much room but it CAN fit. @Celestspeed3 designed mine to run in front of the driver-side wheel. For time attack, it should ok. Door-to-door, prolly not, since a bump might cause oil to be all over my driver side wheel....then you have other problems to deal with. TMOC, if it leaks or get damaged, might start a fire if it hits the exhaust manifold. Either way, I'll be getting a fire-extinguisher for the summer...I finally have non-ricer reasons to do so.

2. Coolant. A local who ran a mix of WaterWetter and FL22 reports a drop of 10*F in operating coolant temps....not necessary idle or crawling. I run FL22, and will consider the mix.

3. Aux fan control and t-stat. I'm still on the stock T-stat and Paul has rigged the oil cooler to come on at a specific temp. If I re-do the system again, those will be upgraded. To speak directly to Dano's plan of progression, I'd say track duty requires a minimum of Stage 2.

4. Bigger rad. @MajesticBlueNTO is going that route. A part of me wants to man up and go this route too. Since a bunch of you guys will be running it in hotter weather faster than we will here up north, I may make the decision pending more results, esp from other track guys.

5. Fire extinguisher. See #1 . =)

Kinda hard to see in these pics, but the 6 definitely has ducting at the bottom of the front bumper. It directs air straight into the radiator.

I'll have the car up on jack stands tonight if we want better pics.

except once u get a real mans FMIC you need to cut most of that away lol

Is that part of the whole under tray or a separate piece?

Just the front lip piece, connects to the radiator support iirc.

I had the same problem with my coolant temp going up what I did was went with a setup like Anythony and delet my oil cooler and went with a external oil cooler using two -10 lines.

I attach some info when are Thermostat fully opens

So, if we were using a thermostat for the oil cooler, where would one mount it? Doesn't a thermostat just block flow until it reaches XXX°? So wouldn't it stop oil from flowing? Or do you create some kind of "bypass" line before the thermostat?

EDIT: Found a decent thread on google from a supra forum regarding oil cooler install/bypass/thermostat setup.
http://www.supramania.com/forums/sho...-Remote-Filter

The advantage of the water oil cooler is that it both cools and heats the oil. I would add an oil cooler on top of the OEM one with a thermostat.
@Tomas; and others have done this.

What we did on my cobalt was bump the rad fan cut on to 190 and i never seen over 200 deg temps during the summer heat at the drag strip. This was also waiting forever in line then going down the strip.

We also could do this thru the tune.

lol exactly what i said in post #2

oh i no, i follow your builds, i was just saying that also because there seems to be some crazy was to go about this.

I am actually looking for your thread on what you had to do to your fans, i will be doing mine.

I have seen a few z's that have shrouds for both oil coolers and fmic. Maybe a functional hood to pull the heat out of the engine bay?

Genwons (at least) will have to have a supplemental fan for this; ATR doesn't control the fan for us.

Ah, does not hurt to wish tho lol.

sent to you from me

Wasn't it available at one time in one of the Beta releases? I swear I remember reading about that in Abilor's guide.

Oh it's there, just doesn't do a fucking thing. The logic is integrated into the fan itself, if memory serves.

Either there are additional tables David hasn't uncovered yet or it's in the fan itself.

I thought that sometimes the fans would follow those old table values
@cld12pk2go; might have some insight into this. Iirc they worked for him at some point.


Tappin

They work, but the car has to be stopped and the AC on for them to have an effect. I spoke to cobb about it some time ago.

Zigatapatalka

So more tables needed.


Tappin

I do remember David saying that there were other factors involved outside of the ECU that effected the tables functions. AC was probably one of them as Ziggo said.

ive seen an external air to air cooler drop ECT's 60 degrees after beating on the car 15+ minutes compared from my ms6 to a ms3 with the stock setup


ask @Neverlift;. the hottest he could get my coolant temps were 215


.... and he never lifts

It's not a table, there is a microcontroller directly on the fan with the following logic/behavior IIRC:
Inputs: ECU cooling flag: true/false
Car stopped: true/false
A/C on : true/false
Coolant temperature: value

Output: Fan on/off

If coolant temp > 217*F set fan on
If coolant temp > xxx*F & a/c on "true" set fan on
If ecu flag "true" & car stopped "true" set fan on
Else set fan off

The only thing we have access to and is in the ECU is the logic for setting the ECU flag on or off, which is only effective if the car is stopped because the little controller needs the states for both the ecu flag and the car stopped flag to be true for it to turn the fan on.

If you want to change the temp it flicks on at you need to replace that controller with something simpler. But again, this will only impact stopped and low speed cooling and increase the thermal capacity of the system for the next (short) pull. Even at 40mph the flow generated by the fan is going to be miniscule compared to the overall airflow.

If you want to keep the motor cool, first you need to monitor where it is currently then to cool it down do what us track peeps do, 40-60mph in 4th/5th gear for a few minutes. You want the revs up a bit to help circulate the coolant.

Zigatapatalka

70 degree ambient, killed nearly an entire tank of meth in 20 minutes during this testing session. :headbang:

I was thinking of putting a double pole double throw relay and jumping out the controller altogether with a temp switch. I don't think it will through any codes, maybe a ending code. I believe this is what Anthony did. The speed6 is lucky to have two fans though. I agree with Ziggo though for track use I will need a bigger radiator in the end. I just have no options other than custom at the moment. The AWR one is nice but I'm not sure it would fit.

There is that koyo radiator, but we don't have any testing data for it yet.

Zigatapatalka

i know that i personally never see ECTs above ~190*, my fan also runs full time high instead of switching back and forth based on temps. I am about to do the AUX fan controller as Anthony has done. Just have not gotten around to it.

I had an issue that caused my fans to NOT kick into high, so i basically bipassed the module allowing my fans to run full time high instead. So far its worked for me, doesnt mean its the smart thing to do, just stating that it has worked :)

I don't think it fits the gen2. The angle and size of the hoses are different same with the shroud. I think it may physically fit though.

Do you road race the car? Lapping or any HPDE?

Curious to know if the fans can reject that much heat.

So i know most of this conversation is going toward people with higher power, but i have a though that doesnt seem to have been mentioned yet.

Wouldnt there be some advantages of being able to flip the stock fans on manually?
Stock they wont come on till around 200 degrees. What if we just wired a switch into the current fans. I would still want the stock controll system to control the fans while under normal driving. but if you could just flip the fans on before doing a lap, pull or whatnot, shouldnt that be helpful?

Granted i do believe for extended periods of hard driving aka a track day or something this would not be sufficient as it seems people are already maxing out the system under those conditions, but for the guys that just want to keep temps down while doing a pull or AX run flipping the fans on earlier manually should make it take longer to max out the system?

Why go through the trouble of trying to create something to manually do it when Anthony has already written a how to for it to do it on its own? And it does it at 190* rather than 200?
For majority of us, Anthonys method is flawless. Call me a nutswinger but the proof is in the pudding :)

And @Celestspeed3; not yet i dont. But i can say that it was holding up just fine while i was in Texas heat everyday over 105*.

Yea i figured what ANT is awesome, just thinking it might be cheaper and easier to just splice a switch into the power line to the fans, and just flipping it on before you get on the track. Maybe i will give ants thing a try if i get bored some weekend this summer. I have never really monitored how hot my car gets from an AX run but i will be sure to record it next weekend

might it be that such power levels require 2 step colder plugs?

The logic is absolutely nasty. I still haven't come up with a way to allow the changes to the tables without changing a bunch of other ones to make them work right.

-David@COBB

haha

I figured it had to be something like that...seems a better solution is the one Anthony has already fleshed out a la new fan controller.

thanks David!

With ethanol mixes and meth it honestly shouldn't matter. The ethanol and water/meth both help cool the combustion chamber substantially, which means you don't need the colder plug. Will the colder plugs hurt? Probably not, but like Dano said earlier, they aren't going to make a significant difference in overall combustion chambers temps. They have also been known to foul out much sooner than the stock heat range plugs.

The amount of heat the coolant jacket has to absorb is also dependent on how aggressive the spark advance is. Start that combustion off sooner and sooner, and the motor has to deal with more and more of the heat, rather than the exhaust.

Great thread, and good suggestions.

Woah you guys are way over doing it.

#1 water wetter
#2 aux fan control
#3 bigger radiator fan
#4 improved radiator ducting
#5 external oil cooler
#6 radiator upgrade

In that order.

The raidiator is quite large because it handles the load from both the coolant system and the oil system. So in the MS6 it cools the engine, TB, tcase, engine oil, and turbo which is alot to cool. If it cooled the engine only and everything else was aux cooled then it would be able to support alot more hp.

Honestly on my car I was able to run it at 100% for nearly 10 miles straight at 150mph and it was only towards the end that I hit 240*F ect, now my l/a system coolant hit nearly 190*f lol which is a different issue altogether.

When your average speed is 60mph+,2&3 are not going to do a whole lot.

The big benefit of water wetter is running pure DI water with it, but I don't like doing that on a daily driven car because the reduced lubrication will fail the water pump faster and the reduced corrosion protection will result in more crud in the system and more frequent flushes being required. I do run a reduced mixture of FL22, using a 2:1 DI water to FL22 concentrate mixture instead of the 1:1 that is used stock. It will reduce the lifetime somewhat and require more frequent flushing, but I consider it a reasonable compromise.

I agree with the ducting, but those of us with FMICs will have to be careful. If you do a really good job and seal up around the edges of the radiator really well, you will kill the pressure differential across the FMIC core in front of the radiator and kill the effectiveness.

Zigatapatalka

I guess at some point you guys will have to start talking separately about racing/track setups and DD setups.
These are getting in conflict in pretty much any potentially useful post I read on this thread because heat reduction setups for track is overkill for street driving and the street setups are not enough for track.

well if the bonheads would follow my directions we wouldn't have any confusion. :) So if you have a suggestion please classify where you think it should fall.

Stage I [DD + light track use]

Stage II [DD + medium track use]

Stage III [weekend full racecar]

but even then there would be overlap because...well opinions differ.

Ziggo is obviously only talking road race situations which 90+% of us will never see :)

From what I have seen so far here is how I currently see things shaking out. please chime in if you think some items need to be moved around.

Stage I

Aux fan control
tstat ??
light ducting improvements

Stage II

Oil cooler
WW, FL22 mixes in varying degrees
possibly more ducting work

Stage III

new multimillion dollar radiator
dual or larger fans
+ all the BS that will entail [hoses, mounting options, etc.]

meh im just installing the koyo, we will see what else i have to do from there

if more is needed, upgraded fans will be my next step, but i doubt it

fyi my biggest heat issues are in August, in a parking lot, during autox

where there is no real speed to actually help the cooling system do its thing

BAT's in the 170s were another issue, meth solved that

I am sorry but I feel all of this discussion is kinda pointless I feel we only need the fan to kick on at 200 instead of 217 oe whenever it kicks on and problem fucking solved on stock system

if there is anything wrong with stock parts that a different discussion but I feel our cooling system works extremely well to the point where the fan literally NEVER comes on unless sitting in traffic.

If ATR would simply let us change the heat table which does not exist to us and turn fan on sooner problems would be alot less.

Why are we discussing spending more fucking money on more fucking parts when our stock system can handle anything with the fan actually on ...


WHile staging I push my car with it off. and hood popped

actually if track rules allow it I am going to remove my hood completely when I goto track next and leave that bitch at home.

The hood does a lot for cooling as it helps air pass through the radiator as well as aerodynamics.

so who wants me to build a MS3/6 specific fan controller kit?

=D

do it plz. Make my life easy lol

this is a big problem that I have to deal with myself, Its only mid 60's here during the day but my coolant temp have already gotten up to 219 in traffic.

I have replaced my thermostat a few times last summer thinking that it was acting up but I still have heat issues.

I remember someone saying that they saw better cooling temps with a fmic when the core was directly against the radiator not spaced out, that is going to be my first plan of attack.

I see the upgraded koyo radiator and another fan in my future.
YES PLEASE!

I know @mason was talking about cutting his hood to install hood louvers, a couple inverted scoops like the gtr's have would be awesome.

Should we weigh the benefits of Cooling the physical parts in the engine vs cooling the engine bay? For example, the hood on the ZL1 camaro has that scoop to pull like 1/3 of the air going through the radiator out of the top, thats hot air that never has a chance to get into the engine bay.

Remove rear weather stripping, maybe have holes in fender liner, kinda Evo X style to pull air out of engine bay, maybe run that tubing people use for brake ducts, but just point it at something hot? Basically anything to keep the bay cool, and subsequently the things in the bay cooler?

i feel this is Basically a "stage 2 esque" approach to things, but thats what most of my modifications have been to do, just get the hot air out you know.