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-   MazdaSpeed 3 - Engine, Transmission & Driveline (http://www.mazdaspeedforums.org/forum/f10/)
-   -   MZR DISI Heat Management (http://www.mazdaspeedforums.org/forum/f10/mzr-disi-heat-management-140135/)

superskaterxes 03-15-2013 09:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by daafisch (Post 1949632)
Someone in the ring land thread mentioned contacting one of the Grand-Am teams. I just got this back from Gareth Nixon of Nixon Motorsport. I was asking specifically about race applications.

Hello John,

A three core radiator from Fluidyne is an affordable option, then replace the original fan and shroud with a high volume fan running constantly. We tried different oil coolers but saw no gain, the original oil/water cooler at the filter housing is a good system. If you remove the front bumper you will see a large structure which blocks air to half the radiator, you can fabricate a tubular replacement or with the use of a cutting wheel gut the oem one so every inch of air can get through. You also need to seal all the openings around the rad so all the air is forced through. Fit a good digit temp gauge and you should not see over 200f.

All the best,
Gareth Nixon


EDIT:
Tom from i-MOTO racing also just responded with this. Again I was asking specifically about racing applications.

Jon,

We are happy to answer questions.

We use a custom radiator, and the stock oil cooler. We typically never get above 180-190 water temp during a weekend, and that would be in the draft. Most of the time we are running in the 160-170 range water temp. We remove the stock fans, and replace them with a single motorsport fan, wired to a manual switch. We typically get a full season out of our engines, 2 of the cars are on their 2nd season on the engines. The only reason the 3rd car has a new one for this year, is the old engine was damaged in a crash at Lime Rock 2012.

If there is enough demand, we can start selling the radiators on our web store. They would cost around $2200.00 each. They are a direct bolt in.

Tom Badger
I-Moto Racing
thanks for actually doing some research on this. if two racing teams still use stock oil coolers then you would be insane to replace yours. Looks like turning the fans on is all your really need to do =D

Fobio 03-15-2013 09:54 AM
$2200 for a rad?!

@Celestspeed3

Ziggo 03-15-2013 09:54 AM
What do they consider acceptable oil temperature and do they adjust the ring gaps?

Also please ask about the Thermostat, if they are in the 160/170 range they are obviously using a lower temp tstat

Zigatapatalka

Ziggo 03-15-2013 10:05 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by superskaterxes (Post 1949659)
thanks for actually doing some research on this. if two racing teams still use stock oil coolers then you would be insane to replace yours. Looks like turning the fans on is all your really need to do =D
Did you miss the part about the $2200 custom radiator? Maybe oil temperatures are ok when coolant temperatures never pass 180*F

Zigatapatalka

twenty5psi 03-15-2013 10:28 AM
Anyone considered experimenting with a proplyene glycol coolant like Evans? It would be interesting to see someone run it and do some logs. By itself it will not "fix" an undersized cooling system but if the cooling system has some inherent hot spots in the water jackets/localized boiling when you guys see 200+ ECTs it would definitely be of some help considering it has a boiling point of ~375F unpressurized. You might actually see higher temps because it is in effect pulling more heat out of the system, but if this were true you might pick up some more headroom from knock.


Just some thoughts, I would absolutely try to get a t-stat that opens up clean at 180 though.

Celestspeed3 03-15-2013 11:29 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggo (Post 1949666)
What do they consider acceptable oil temperature and do they adjust the ring gaps?

Also please ask about the Thermostat, if they are in the 160/170 range they are obviously using a lower temp tstat

Zigatapatalka
Excellent questions.

I wouldn't be surprised if they removed the thermostat altogether.

superskaterxes 03-15-2013 11:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggo (Post 1949697)
Did you miss the part about the $2200 custom radiator? Maybe oil temperatures are ok when coolant temperatures never pass 180*F

Zigatapatalka
well clearly its just a matter of a bigger radiator and keeping the fans on. since 99% of this forum doesent participate in HPDE type events where you have significant load on the motor for long periods of time (where a bigger radiator would help) then just a fan mad shall suffice for the everyday DD or drag/autoX guys.

Celestspeed3 03-15-2013 11:37 AM
Does the AWR rad fit the speed3? That seems like a far more affordable option.

Radiator And Fan Assembly - Mazda3 2004-2008 - Competition - AWR Racing Store

I emailed them asking a week ago and never heard back. I'd rather not waste an international long distance call being put on hold.

daafisch 03-15-2013 11:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggo (Post 1949666)
What do they consider acceptable oil temperature and do they adjust the ring gaps?

Also please ask about the Thermostat, if they are in the 160/170 range they are obviously using a lower temp tstat

Zigatapatalka
I'll ask and get back to you.

Todd98SE 03-15-2013 11:44 AM
MZR DISI Heat Management
 
I'm surprised both teams are still using the OEM oil cooler. That is usually the first thing replaced with an air to liquid cooler when fighting oil temps.

Fluidyne does not have a bolt in radiator upgrade and Koyo doesn't cover the Pu yet. A Ron Davis radiator even custom fitted would be much less than the quoted $2200 i-Moto radiator.

Edit: I just emailed AWR again asking for a Ron Davis core MS3 radiator. Hopefully he responds this time.

Todd98SE 03-15-2013 12:01 PM
MZR DISI Heat Management
 
Wow, Tony at AWR already wrote back. He is wondering what the difference is between the 2 gens of MS3 radiators? He also wanted to look at one from each gen and he would see what he can do. It sounds like his existing MS6 radiator will work with minimal modification. Anyone in SoCal have a radiator sitting around we can get to AWR? I can drive my Gen2 to him to look but he probably needs one uninstalled.

Edit: All he needs is an uninstalled Gen 2 radiator. Anyone have access to one?

Celestspeed3 03-15-2013 02:53 PM
From what I have gather the hose size is like 1/16" different and the inlet and outlets are in slightly different positions. The fan shroud is different as well. If we get a new rad I could care less if the shroud is the same. So long as it fits I can block off the sides with some sheet metal and some high temp silicone to seal it up.

So long as the mounting points are the same it should work.



Gen1 Speed3
http://www.rockauto.com/getimage/get...16-0&width=450
More Information for SPECTRA PREMIUM / COOLING DEPOT CU2696

All of the gen1 rads are the same

Gen2 Speed3
http://www.rockauto.com/getimage/get...42-0&width=450
More Information for SPECTRA PREMIUM / COOLING DEPOT CU13100

All of the gen2 rads are the same

Dano 03-15-2013 03:18 PM
I personally don't ever see going this far but this is great info for the Stage III guys.

So back to Stage I mods:

In-fact may not even go with a fan controller and instead go with a simple switch for when I am tuning/running the car hard.

I am no circuit expert but I would like to have a relay attached to a timer circuit of sorts. Throw the fan into ON position and if you forget to turn it off [this is me for sure] it will go back to OEM mode after 30 minutes or whatever user selectable setting has expired.

no need to cut into the rad hose
no need to buy a thermostat and adapter for hose
no need to buy the kit

@superskaterxes; mr EE...can you make something that can do that?
@BlueStreak; what say you...we know you like to make circuits :)

Celestspeed3 03-15-2013 03:23 PM
Stock fan control is a strange pain in the ass as David from Cobb mentioned. I think it would be far easier to use a temp switch and a relay to control the fans. Use a double pole double through relay and leave the stock system connected if it makes you feel better. I would just do away with it all together. Than again, I fall in that "stage 3" category.

daafisch 03-15-2013 03:26 PM
i-MOTO got back to me again. He sent a few separate emails so I'll just summarize.

First off, which is what I thought, the engines are OEM sealed from Mazda. The ST class doesn't allow them to tinker with them.

They do not run a thermostat.

As for max fluid temps: Water - 260°F, Oil 300°F+. The oil that they run is Maxima RS1040 and they don't ever worry about oil related issues.

I also linked him to both this and the ring land thread as he wasn't which forum these are coming from.

Celestspeed3 03-15-2013 03:29 PM
Do we have an idea as to what kind of tune they are running or is engine management prohibited as well?

Power/torque?

Sealed from Mazda meaning MMD is that different than our factory spec?

Dano 03-15-2013 03:29 PM
SPDT relay will put Power to the fan when the ECU wants to cut the power...right? This is how I wired my WMI failsafe to power an LED when fault is detected causing a cut in power to a sol.

ECU wants to cut power more often than give it.

seems easy at first glance.

Car moving - AC off - ECU turns fans off throwing the SPDT.

SPDT powers the fan on as long as the ECU circuit state remains the same.

I guess at that point you would need a couple of circuits so that when you stop - ECU powers fan SPTD throws again...argh...like i said me no hablais circuits well.

also don't know how to step up the amps for power to the fans. Somebody in here said the fan will blow a 30a fuse.

I'll have to get my napkin out and do some DJ sketches.

Celestspeed3 03-15-2013 03:33 PM
No i mean using a DPDT to switch between your commanded forced high speed ON and computer control.

Dano 03-15-2013 03:34 PM
O I C

anyway this is kinda a derail to the broader view of the topic...lol

daafisch 03-15-2013 03:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Celestspeed3 (Post 1950485)
Do we have an idea as to what kind of tune they are running or is engine management prohibited as well?

Power/torque?

Sealed from Mazda meaning MMD is that different than our factory spec?
I remember seeing that they use an AP for tuning. The ST class rules are pretty strict on boost control. They are probably running a tune that only modifies timing and AFR's. Here is a link to the ST class rules. http://www.grand-am.com/portals/0/gr...2GS&ST-GCR.pdf

Fobio 03-15-2013 03:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by daafisch (Post 1950507)
I remember seeing that they use an AP for tuning. The ST class rules are pretty strict on boost control. They are probably running a tune that only modifies timing and AFR's. Here is a link to the ST class rules. http://www.grand-am.com/portals/0/gr...2GS&ST-GCR.pdf
From speaking with the head evengelist at Cobb, I believe they were all limited to 19psi...I can't name names.

This was a couple of yrs ago...and I was told to forget the discussion that was had... ;)

phate 03-15-2013 03:50 PM
@silvapain; and @MATT DAMOND; were down in Daytona talking to the MS race team. I believe they talked tuning strategies and imposed rules for boost and whatnot. What say ye guys?

BlueStreak 03-15-2013 03:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dano (Post 1950486)
SPDT relay will put Power to the fan when the ECU wants to cut the power...right? This is how I wired my WMI failsafe to power an LED when fault is detected causing a cut in power to a sol.

ECU wants to cut power more often than give it.

seems easy at first glance.

Car moving - AC off - ECU turns fans off throwing the SPDT.

SPDT powers the fan on as long as the ECU circuit state remains the same.

I guess at that point you would need a couple of circuits so that when you stop - ECU powers fan SPTD throws again...argh...like i said me no hablais circuits well.

also don't know how to step up the amps for power to the fans. Somebody in here said the fan will blow a 30a fuse.

I'll have to get my napkin out and do some DJ sketches.
So basically, you want to inverse the commanded ECU function? That can be done with transistors/resistors and a relay.

Enki 03-15-2013 04:04 PM
For a long while I contemplated running a big cfm pusher fan from Jegs on the front of the radiator wired to a switch. It's probably the easiest option as far as "fan control" goes.

silvapain 03-15-2013 04:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by phate (Post 1950536)
@silvapain; and @MATT DAMOND; were down in Daytona talking to the MS race team. I believe they talked tuning strategies and imposed rules for boost and whatnot. What say ye guys?
Down to 12 psi max this year. They use an AccessPORT.

Dano 03-15-2013 04:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Enki (Post 1950552)
For a long while I contemplated running a big cfm pusher fan from Jegs on the front of the radiator wired to a switch. It's probably the easiest option as far as "fan control" goes.
if you don't run an FMIC maybe. I'd have to look but it def won't go between rad and IC but there still isn't enough space in front of the IC IIRC. C what I did there?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueStreak (Post 1950547)
So basically, you want to inverse the commanded ECU function? That can be done with transistors/resistors and a relay.
PM sent :)

Enki 03-15-2013 04:19 PM
There isn't 3.2 inches / 82mm of clearance?

JEGS Low Profile Heavy Duty Electric Fans - JEGS

sidekick 03-15-2013 04:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Enki (Post 1950574)
There isn't 3.2 inches / 82mm of clearance?

JEGS Low Profile Heavy Duty Electric Fans - JEGS
It certainly seems like we could fit something that small... The smallest one is not even 2.5" thick and would still help most likely.

Enki 03-15-2013 04:31 PM
Probably room for two of those @ 10 inches.

sidekick 03-15-2013 04:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueStreak (Post 1950547)
So basically, you want to inverse the commanded ECU function? That can be done with transistors/resistors and a relay.
Is there no way to allow it to function as normal, but with a switch spliced in somewhere that simply forces it to "ON", regardless of ECU input?

Dano 03-15-2013 04:45 PM
between IC and rad no..prap ~1"

between IC and bumper, centered, there is 16" of 3.25 clearance with my Genwan and Cobb FMIC After the 16" it closes down fairly rapidly.

We already have a fan installed that probably only runs like 20% of the time...lol

sidekick 03-15-2013 05:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dano (Post 1950609)
between IC and rad no..prap ~1"

between IC and bumper, centered, there is 16" of 3.25 clearance with my Genwan and Cobb FMIC After the 16" it closes down fairly rapidly.

We already have a fan installed that probably only runs like 20% of the time...lol
For GenWon MS3s, it may be beneficial to get either a second fan, or replace the fan with a larger unit.

The MS6 guys are ahead here , because we have 2 fans, stock. The AWR/Ron Davis radiator looks like a promising option for us, but there is no proof that it does any better than stock. Is anyone actually running one?

Haltech 03-15-2013 05:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Todd98SE (Post 1949971)
I'm surprised both teams are still using the OEM oil cooler. That is usually the first thing replaced with an air to liquid cooler when fighting oil temps.

Fluidyne does not have a bolt in radiator upgrade and Koyo doesn't cover the Pu yet. A Ron Davis radiator even custom fitted would be much less than the quoted $2200 i-Moto radiator.

Edit: I just emailed AWR again asking for a Ron Davis core MS3 radiator. Hopefully he responds this time.
I had Fluidyne build me larger cooling cores for the Lightning H20 Intercooler. Im sure it wouldnt be hard to get people to commit to pre-ordering them. After we did the initial purchase, they began to stock em. Im sure they would do the same in this instance.

I think having a manual override to the fan would work well for everyone.

sidekick 03-15-2013 05:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Haltech (Post 1950640)
I think having a manual override to the fan would work well for everyone.
@BlueStreak; is this possible? Maybe a PNP harness that goes between the OEM connector and the connector on the fan and gives us an override "ALWAYS ON" switch.

rfinkle2 03-15-2013 05:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dano (Post 1950609)
between IC and rad no..prap ~1"

between IC and bumper, centered, there is 16" of 3.25 clearance with my Genwan and Cobb FMIC After the 16" it closes down fairly rapidly.

We already have a fan installed that probably only runs like 20% of the time...lol
If I'm jacking up the thread, please delete it but @NJSPEED3; just put a nasty fan in and as soon as he gets the kinks worked out on a low temp relay should have a decent radiator set-up.

Ziggo 03-15-2013 05:51 PM
12psi max is rough. Less boost than stock FTL.

I would guess that these guys are putting down a maximum of 270whp so their cooling setup may not be sufficient for guys here.

I ran the K04 as hard as I could with 11.2afr and 12* peak timing on the track and did not have issues with coolant temperature getting excessive, including a 105* day at willow springs this was the tune that was run at forum wars, approx 270 at the wheel. My temperatures didn't get excessive till I slapped the BNRS3 on and was able to rev it out to redline and still make power.


Zigatapatalka

NJSPEED3 03-15-2013 06:12 PM
Pretty simple and cheap to do. Like mentioned above you will need a bigger fuse I think Cruzito runs a 40amp on his stock fan. So who knows if I'll need more we need to test the fans and see what its drawing out, so far for the lil bit I drive the 30amp I have has been ok. Keep in mind its been freezing up here. the reason why I decided to add the extra fan with the Derale controller was because in the summer my oil temps are just too high for regular driving. I usually see around 200-210 oil temp, which has gotta be a product of my constant 210-220 coolant temps. The set up is finally working well, my dashawk says they came on around 201-203 and shut off around 187 degrees. Essentially my goal is to keep the oil temp as close to 190 as possible.


http://i840.photobucket.com/albums/z...222_174152.jpg
http://i840.photobucket.com/albums/z...222_192825.jpg

Fobio 03-15-2013 06:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by NJSPEED3 (Post 1950759)
Pretty simple and cheap to do. Like mentioned above you will need a bigger fuse I think Cruzito runs a 40amp on his stock fan. So who knows if I'll need more we need to test the fans and see what its drawing out, so far for the lil bit I drive the 30amp I have has been ok. Keep in mind its been freezing up here. the reason why I decided to add the extra fan with the Derale controller was because in the summer my oil temps are just too high for regular driving. I usually see around 200-210 oil temp, which has gotta be a product of my constant 210-220 coolant temps. The set up is finally working well, my dashawk says they came on around 201-203 and shut off around 187 degrees. Essentially my goal is to keep the oil temp as close to 190 as possible.
You can close your hood with that?!

Props...

NJSPEED3 03-15-2013 06:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fobio (Post 1950766)
You can close your hood with that?!

Props...
If you have access to a lift it will take you less than 5 minutes to pull the radiator fan support from the bottom. There are 2 clips on the bottom and one main harness clip and a ground wire that is screwed into the fan.

http://i840.photobucket.com/albums/z...220_145857.jpg

http://i840.photobucket.com/albums/z...220_150013.jpg

Fobio 03-15-2013 06:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by NJSPEED3 (Post 1950781)
If you have access to a lift it will take you less than 5 minutes to pull the radiator fan support from the bottom. There are 2 clips on the bottom and one main harness clip and a ground wire that is screwed into the fan.
I hope you know I was kidding and wasn't really thinking you left that thing on TOP of the engine...lol...

...or do you? ;)

...or am I?...lol...


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