MZR DISI Heat Management

[kritz]

Remove tmic replace with tmoc.

Sent from my frontal cortex.

[phate]

I'll take a pic of it later if everyone thinks I'm crazy lol.

[802MS3]

running 25/70 mix of coolant to water does wonders on the stock setup in the summer, even with a fmic.

also, its probably a good idea to run the stock "FL22" coolant or an equiv like Zerex for "Asian" (lol) cars.

[8.5MS3]

with my fmic in the summer, in traffic and lower speeds my ect's would climb into the 21X and sometimes 220s, putting the heat on brought it down

cruising at 50+ for a few minutes also helped bring the temps down

I will be installing a koyo in a week or so. Will probably change the T-stat too

[Ziggo]

Originally Posted by kritz Remove tmic replace with tmoc. Sent from my frontal cortex.

I really was thinking about this, only thing holding me back was the long lines it would require and the additional pressure drop in the traditional sandwich plate setup. With a secondary mocal pump it would be very doable.

Maybe slap an additional radiator up there? It won't be as effective as the one up front but there really is a ton of area. Bleeding would be a bitch too.

Zigatapatalka

[Celestspeed3]

Originally Posted by Ziggo I really was thinking about this, only thing holding me back was the long lines it would require and the additional pressure drop in the traditional sandwich plate setup. With a secondary mocal pump it would be very doable. Maybe slap an additional radiator up there? It won't be as effective as the one up front but there really is a ton of area. Bleeding would be a bitch too. Zigatapatalka

Run an external pump in parallel.

[Dano]

woah...this is going all over the place...lol not sure that was my intent so maybe categorizing the suggestions is a good idea. I like exotic as much as the next guy but lets crawl before we walk, before we run

Stage I:

I wanted to mainly explore resolving what I thought were two OEM deficiencies in controlling more heat generated by higher HP than Mazda intended. I thought this could be resolved in the tstat and fan control alone, but it may be the tstat is ok and mine is just not functioning properly.

I think doing only what Anthony did will resolve the majority of guys issues with a "stage I" heat management upgrade. This would be for DD and light track/tuning scenarios. I don't track my car but my tuning along with a bad tstat and fan that won't come on below 217 was the end of the story for my 1st motor.

so lets see if we can categorize some upgrades, tuning modifications not withstanding i.e. richer AFR.

Stage I:

1) Upgraded Tstat [possibly]
2) Aux fan control

Stage II:

Stage I + oil cooler

Stage III:

Stage I & II + larger cap rad

Does this sound like a logical progression in terms of order of progression. ease, cost and usefulness of each stage?

[cbspd3flip]

I'm going to add into this. I am currently having a temp control issue. My fan will not come on until my coolant has reached 215+ sometimes it'll wait until 220+. Those temps are during "normal" operation. Also temps will stay above 190 while cruising. That is definitely too high for my comfort.

I will be replacing my tstat and doing the aux fan w/ manual switch, hopefully in the next couple of weeks.

I'm definitely interested in some of the ideas for engine cooling in this thread.

[8.5MS3]

I think it would also be worth investigating if a shroud above the radiator would help direct more air thru the core. I have a feeling that removing the ducts by the grill (genwon) causes the air to go up and over rather than thru the radiator

Especially if you have removed the rubber strips like most of us have.

Also thermal management under the hood needs to be considered (header wrapping, turbo blankets etc) need to keep as much out as possible imo

[sidekick]

Originally Posted by Dano Does this sound like a logical progression in terms of order of progression. ease, cost and usefulness of each stage?

Sounds logical to me, but some of these things can have drawbacks on daily driven cars, which should be mentioned in favor of "full disclosure".

You should add an oil t-stat as a suggestion with the oil cooler as Lex mentioned, because otherwise there is a chance that the oil will never get up to temp on shorter trips. Larger rad and a "cooler" t-stat will cause a similar problem with the coolant. Remember that many engine parts are designed to work in a specific range of temperatures. Too hot is bad, but so is too cold.

[Ziggo]

Track dudes have a different concept of exotic and a fundamentally different problem. The OEM system simply cannot reject enough heat and anything other than adding radiative capacity is just beating around the bush.

For everyone else I would suggest monitoring via oil temperature gauge and setting an alarm on coolant temperature. If your coolant temperatures do not fall below 210 after extended cruising on the highway, even on a 100deg day, replace the Thermostat. If you want to be safe, don't run the motor hard with oil temps at 250+ or ECTs above 220.

Fan control and lower temp tstats will make marginal benefits. We are not butting rings sitting at idle, we are having issues at 80+ mph pulls with the (if working correctly) thermostat already open.

I should note that I am not fully convinced it is a ring butting issue. While the OEM gaps are small, the piston also expands less with heat. It also clearly has to do with the power level and it is possible that the rings are not butting and that at the higher piston temperatures it has reduced fatigue tolerance making it a cylinder pressure problem as well. The solution is still the same either way, a cooler motor and cooler oil will cool the pistons better, but I would not suggest just using OEM pistons with bigger gaps.

Zigatapatalka

[jdmage_mx5]

I would think some shroud modification should be added to stage one. If we can indeed see a couple of degrees drop in temp from said modification then it is worth categorizing. I think finding a standard for this modification as well as the already mention stage one parts (fan control, etc) would make a significant difference. This platform has indeed mastered the art of pulling power out of the cars anus, pulling a few ideas together to assist in cooling efficiency can only help the reliability factor. I think Corksport, JBR, CP-E could profit from offering an oil cooler upgrade vs the current oem coffee can cooling container we currently run.

[sidekick]

Originally Posted by Ziggo Track dudes have a different concept of exotic and a fundamentally different problem. The OEM system simply cannot reject enough heat and anything other than adding radiative capacity is just beating around the bush. For everyone else I would suggest monitoring via oil temperature gauge and setting an alarm on coolant temperature. If your coolant temperatures do not fall below 210 after extended cruising on the highway, even on a 100deg day, replace the Thermostat. If you want to be safe, don't run the motor hard with oil temps at 250+ or ECTs above 220. Fan control and lower temp tstats will make marginal benefits. We are not butting rings sitting at idle, we are having issues at 80+ mph pulls with the (if working correctly) thermostat already open. I should note that I am not fully convinced it is a ring butting issue. While the OEM gaps are small, the piston also expands less with heat. It also clearly has to do with the power level and it is possible that the rings are not butting and that at the higher piston temperatures it has reduced fatigue tolerance making it a cylinder pressure problem as well. The solution is still the same either way, a cooler motor and cooler oil will cool the pistons better, but I would not suggest just using OEM pistons with bigger gaps. Zigatapatalka

Now that you mention an oil temp gauge, do our engines have an oil temp sensor or oil pressure sensor at all? I've never seen or read anything about one, but I'm curious if we can get some oil temp or pressure readings via dashhawk/AP/etc., without the hassle of
installing a "real" gauge.

Honestly, even if you don't track your car, this is extremely good info to have. In fact, it's probably more important than most of the parameters all of us are viewing on our dataloggers.

[mazdamx3freak]

I just got dont reading through this and I dont recall anyone saying higher cfm fans to replace the factory ones.

[Fobio]

From what I've read so far, these are the things that peek my interest:

1. TMOC - I wanted to run it there...not cuz of the typical Subie install, but to take advantage of underhood ducting...with the Cobb FMIC, there isn't much room but it CAN fit. @Celestspeed3 designed mine to run in front of the driver-side wheel. For time attack, it should ok. Door-to-door, prolly not, since a bump might cause oil to be all over my driver side wheel....then you have other problems to deal with. TMOC, if it leaks or get damaged, might start a fire if it hits the exhaust manifold. Either way, I'll be getting a fire-extinguisher for the summer...I finally have non-ricer reasons to do so.

2. Coolant. A local who ran a mix of WaterWetter and FL22 reports a drop of 10*F in operating coolant temps....not necessary idle or crawling. I run FL22, and will consider the mix.

3. Aux fan control and t-stat. I'm still on the stock T-stat and Paul has rigged the oil cooler to come on at a specific temp. If I re-do the system again, those will be upgraded. To speak directly to Dano's plan of progression, I'd say track duty requires a minimum of Stage 2.

4. Bigger rad. @MajesticBlueNTO is going that route. A part of me wants to man up and go this route too. Since a bunch of you guys will be running it in hotter weather faster than we will here up north, I may make the decision pending more results, esp from other track guys.

5. Fire extinguisher. See #1 . =)

[phate]

Kinda hard to see in these pics, but the 6 definitely has ducting at the bottom of the front bumper. It directs air straight into the radiator.

I'll have the car up on jack stands tonight if we want better pics.

[superskaterxes]

Originally Posted by phate Kinda hard to see in these pics, but the 6 definitely has ducting at the bottom of the front bumper. It directs air straight into the radiator. I'll have the car up on jack stands tonight if we want better pics.

except once u get a real mans FMIC you need to cut most of that away lol

[sidekick]

Originally Posted by phate Kinda hard to see in these pics, but the 6 definitely has ducting at the bottom of the front bumper. It directs air straight into the radiator. I'll have the car up on jack stands tonight if we want better pics.

Is that part of the whole under tray or a separate piece?

[phate]

Just the front lip piece, connects to the radiator support iirc.

[SPEED6 KILLAH]

I had the same problem with my coolant temp going up what I did was went with a setup like Anythony and delet my oil cooler and went with a external oil cooler using two -10 lines.

I attach some info when are Thermostat fully opens

[sidekick]

So, if we were using a thermostat for the oil cooler, where would one mount it? Doesn't a thermostat just block flow until it reaches XXX°? So wouldn't it stop oil from flowing? Or do you create some kind of "bypass" line before the thermostat?

EDIT: Found a decent thread on google from a supra forum regarding oil cooler install/bypass/thermostat setup.
http://www.supramania.com/forums/sho...-Remote-Filter

[Lex]

The advantage of the water oil cooler is that it both cools and heats the oil. I would add an oil cooler on top of the OEM one with a thermostat.
@Tomas; and others have done this.

[StayBroke]

What we did on my cobalt was bump the rad fan cut on to 190 and i never seen over 200 deg temps during the summer heat at the drag strip. This was also waiting forever in line then going down the strip.

We also could do this thru the tune.

[superskaterxes]

Originally Posted by StayBroke What we did on my cobalt was bump the rad fan cut on to 190 and i never seen over 200 deg temps during the summer heat at the drag strip. This was also waiting forever in line then going down the strip. We also could do this thru the tune.

lol exactly what i said in post #2

[StayBroke]

Originally Posted by superskaterxes lol exactly what i said in post #2

oh i no, i follow your builds, i was just saying that also because there seems to be some crazy was to go about this.

I am actually looking for your thread on what you had to do to your fans, i will be doing mine.

[speedtoz]

I have seen a few z's that have shrouds for both oil coolers and fmic. Maybe a functional hood to pull the heat out of the engine bay?

[Enki]

Originally Posted by StayBroke What we did on my cobalt was bump the rad fan cut on to 190 and i never seen over 200 deg temps during the summer heat at the drag strip. This was also waiting forever in line then going down the strip. We also could do this thru the tune.

Genwons (at least) will have to have a supplemental fan for this; ATR doesn't control the fan for us.

[StayBroke]

Ah, does not hurt to wish tho lol.

sent to you from me

[Crarrs]

Originally Posted by Enki Genwons (at least) will have to have a supplemental fan for this; ATR doesn't control the fan for us.

Wasn't it available at one time in one of the Beta releases? I swear I remember reading about that in Abilor's guide.

[Enki]

Oh it's there, just doesn't do a fucking thing. The logic is integrated into the fan itself, if memory serves.

[Dano]

Either there are additional tables David hasn't uncovered yet or it's in the fan itself.

I thought that sometimes the fans would follow those old table values
@cld12pk2go; might have some insight into this. Iirc they worked for him at some point.


Tappin

[Ziggo]

Originally Posted by Dano Either there are additional tables David hasn't uncovered yet or it's in the fan itself. I thought that sometimes the fans would follow those old table values @cld12pk2go; might have some insight into this. Iirc they worked for him at some point. Tappin

They work, but the car has to be stopped and the AC on for them to have an effect. I spoke to cobb about it some time ago.

Zigatapatalka

[Dano]

So more tables needed.


Tappin

[ms3blackmica]

I do remember David saying that there were other factors involved outside of the ECU that effected the tables functions. AC was probably one of them as Ziggo said.

[dooderek]

ive seen an external air to air cooler drop ECT's 60 degrees after beating on the car 15+ minutes compared from my ms6 to a ms3 with the stock setup


ask @Neverlift;. the hottest he could get my coolant temps were 215


.... and he never lifts

[Ziggo]

Originally Posted by Dano So more tables needed. Tappin

It's not a table, there is a microcontroller directly on the fan with the following logic/behavior IIRC:
Inputs: ECU cooling flag: true/false
Car stopped: true/false
A/C on : true/false
Coolant temperature: value

Output: Fan on/off

If coolant temp > 217*F set fan on
If coolant temp > xxx*F & a/c on "true" set fan on
If ecu flag "true" & car stopped "true" set fan on
Else set fan off

The only thing we have access to and is in the ECU is the logic for setting the ECU flag on or off, which is only effective if the car is stopped because the little controller needs the states for both the ecu flag and the car stopped flag to be true for it to turn the fan on.

If you want to change the temp it flicks on at you need to replace that controller with something simpler. But again, this will only impact stopped and low speed cooling and increase the thermal capacity of the system for the next (short) pull. Even at 40mph the flow generated by the fan is going to be miniscule compared to the overall airflow.

If you want to keep the motor cool, first you need to monitor where it is currently then to cool it down do what us track peeps do, 40-60mph in 4th/5th gear for a few minutes. You want the revs up a bit to help circulate the coolant.

Zigatapatalka

[Neverlift]

Originally Posted by Joe Isuzu ive seen an external air to air cooler drop ECT's 60 degrees after beating on the car 15+ minutes compared from my ms6 to a ms3 with the stock setup ask @Neverlift;. the hottest he could get my coolant temps were 215 .... and he never lifts

70 degree ambient, killed nearly an entire tank of meth in 20 minutes during this testing session.

[Celestspeed3]

I was thinking of putting a double pole double throw relay and jumping out the controller altogether with a temp switch. I don't think it will through any codes, maybe a ending code. I believe this is what Anthony did. The speed6 is lucky to have two fans though. I agree with Ziggo though for track use I will need a bigger radiator in the end. I just have no options other than custom at the moment. The AWR one is nice but I'm not sure it would fit.

[Ziggo]

There is that koyo radiator, but we don't have any testing data for it yet.

Zigatapatalka

[Downmented]

i know that i personally never see ECTs above ~190*, my fan also runs full time high instead of switching back and forth based on temps. I am about to do the AUX fan controller as Anthony has done. Just have not gotten around to it.

I had an issue that caused my fans to NOT kick into high, so i basically bipassed the module allowing my fans to run full time high instead. So far its worked for me, doesnt mean its the smart thing to do, just stating that it has worked