MZR DISI Heat Management

[Celestspeed3]

Originally Posted by Ziggo There is that koyo radiator, but we don't have any testing data for it yet. Zigatapatalka

I don't think it fits the gen2. The angle and size of the hoses are different same with the shroud. I think it may physically fit though.

Originally Posted by Downmented i know that i personally never see ECTs above ~190*, my fan also runs full time high instead of switching back and forth based on temps. I am about to do the AUX fan controller as Anthony has done. Just have not gotten around to it. I had an issue that caused my fans to NOT kick into high, so i basically bipassed the module allowing my fans to run full time high instead. So far its worked for me, doesnt mean its the smart thing to do, just stating that it has worked

Do you road race the car? Lapping or any HPDE?

Curious to know if the fans can reject that much heat.

[Deldran]

So i know most of this conversation is going toward people with higher power, but i have a though that doesnt seem to have been mentioned yet.

Wouldnt there be some advantages of being able to flip the stock fans on manually?
Stock they wont come on till around 200 degrees. What if we just wired a switch into the current fans. I would still want the stock controll system to control the fans while under normal driving. but if you could just flip the fans on before doing a lap, pull or whatnot, shouldnt that be helpful?

Granted i do believe for extended periods of hard driving aka a track day or something this would not be sufficient as it seems people are already maxing out the system under those conditions, but for the guys that just want to keep temps down while doing a pull or AX run flipping the fans on earlier manually should make it take longer to max out the system?

[Downmented]

Originally Posted by Deldran So i know most of this conversation is going toward people with higher power, but i have a though that doesnt seem to have been mentioned yet. Wouldnt there be some advantages of being able to flip the stock fans on manually? Stock they wont come on till around 200 degrees. What if we just wired a switch into the current fans. I would still want the stock controll system to control the fans while under normal driving. but if you could just flip the fans on before doing a lap, pull or whatnot, shouldnt that be helpful? Granted i do believe for extended periods of hard driving aka a track day or something this would not be sufficient as it seems people are already maxing out the system under those conditions, but for the guys that just want to keep temps down while doing a pull or AX run flipping the fans on earlier manually should make it take longer to max out the system?

Why go through the trouble of trying to create something to manually do it when Anthony has already written a how to for it to do it on its own? And it does it at 190* rather than 200?
For majority of us, Anthonys method is flawless. Call me a nutswinger but the proof is in the pudding

And @Celestspeed3; not yet i dont. But i can say that it was holding up just fine while i was in Texas heat everyday over 105*.

[Deldran]

Originally Posted by Downmented Why go through the trouble of trying to create something to manually do it when Anthony has already written a how to for it to do it on its own? And it does it at 190* rather than 200? For majority of us, Anthonys method is flawless. Call me a nutswinger but the proof is in the pudding And @Celestspeed3; not yet i dont. But i can say that it was holding up just fine while i was in Texas heat everyday over 105*.

Yea i figured what ANT is awesome, just thinking it might be cheaper and easier to just splice a switch into the power line to the fans, and just flipping it on before you get on the track. Maybe i will give ants thing a try if i get bored some weekend this summer. I have never really monitored how hot my car gets from an AX run but i will be sure to record it next weekend

[mrQQ]

Originally Posted by Dano unlikely...they can't really control the heat soak of the entire motor like the tstat, fans, rad can. FWIW I was running 1 step colder plugs and DO10 100% meth when mine went.

might it be that such power levels require 2 step colder plugs?

[Cobb Tuning]

Originally Posted by Dano 2) Aux fan control since ATR doesn't have access to the needed tables.

The logic is absolutely nasty. I still haven't come up with a way to allow the changes to the tables without changing a bunch of other ones to make them work right.

-David@COBB

[Dano]

Originally Posted by David@COBB The logic is absolutely nasty. I still haven't come up with a way to allow the changes to the tables without changing a bunch of other ones to make them work right. -David@COBB

haha

I figured it had to be something like that...seems a better solution is the one Anthony has already fleshed out a la new fan controller.

thanks David!

[sidekick]

Originally Posted by mrQQ might it be that such power levels require 2 step colder plugs?

With ethanol mixes and meth it honestly shouldn't matter. The ethanol and water/meth both help cool the combustion chamber substantially, which means you don't need the colder plug. Will the colder plugs hurt? Probably not, but like Dano said earlier, they aren't going to make a significant difference in overall combustion chambers temps. They have also been known to foul out much sooner than the stock heat range plugs.

[djuosnteisn]

The amount of heat the coolant jacket has to absorb is also dependent on how aggressive the spark advance is. Start that combustion off sooner and sooner, and the motor has to deal with more and more of the heat, rather than the exhaust.

Great thread, and good suggestions.

[06Speed6]

Woah you guys are way over doing it.

#1 water wetter
#2 aux fan control
#3 bigger radiator fan
#4 improved radiator ducting
#5 external oil cooler
#6 radiator upgrade

In that order.

The raidiator is quite large because it handles the load from both the coolant system and the oil system. So in the MS6 it cools the engine, TB, tcase, engine oil, and turbo which is alot to cool. If it cooled the engine only and everything else was aux cooled then it would be able to support alot more hp.

Honestly on my car I was able to run it at 100% for nearly 10 miles straight at 150mph and it was only towards the end that I hit 240*F ect, now my l/a system coolant hit nearly 190*f lol which is a different issue altogether.

[Ziggo]

When your average speed is 60mph+,2&3 are not going to do a whole lot.

The big benefit of water wetter is running pure DI water with it, but I don't like doing that on a daily driven car because the reduced lubrication will fail the water pump faster and the reduced corrosion protection will result in more crud in the system and more frequent flushes being required. I do run a reduced mixture of FL22, using a 2:1 DI water to FL22 concentrate mixture instead of the 1:1 that is used stock. It will reduce the lifetime somewhat and require more frequent flushing, but I consider it a reasonable compromise.

I agree with the ducting, but those of us with FMICs will have to be careful. If you do a really good job and seal up around the edges of the radiator really well, you will kill the pressure differential across the FMIC core in front of the radiator and kill the effectiveness.

Zigatapatalka

[mituc]

I guess at some point you guys will have to start talking separately about racing/track setups and DD setups.
These are getting in conflict in pretty much any potentially useful post I read on this thread because heat reduction setups for track is overkill for street driving and the street setups are not enough for track.

[Dano]

well if the bonheads would follow my directions we wouldn't have any confusion. So if you have a suggestion please classify where you think it should fall.

Stage I [DD + light track use]

Stage II [DD + medium track use]

Stage III [weekend full racecar]

but even then there would be overlap because...well opinions differ.

Ziggo is obviously only talking road race situations which 90+% of us will never see

From what I have seen so far here is how I currently see things shaking out. please chime in if you think some items need to be moved around.

Stage I

Aux fan control
tstat ??
light ducting improvements

Stage II

Oil cooler
WW, FL22 mixes in varying degrees
possibly more ducting work

Stage III

new multimillion dollar radiator
dual or larger fans
+ all the BS that will entail [hoses, mounting options, etc.]

[8.5MS3]

meh im just installing the koyo, we will see what else i have to do from there

if more is needed, upgraded fans will be my next step, but i doubt it

fyi my biggest heat issues are in August, in a parking lot, during autox

where there is no real speed to actually help the cooling system do its thing

BAT's in the 170s were another issue, meth solved that

[Nitr0EngiE]

I am sorry but I feel all of this discussion is kinda pointless I feel we only need the fan to kick on at 200 instead of 217 oe whenever it kicks on and problem fucking solved on stock system

if there is anything wrong with stock parts that a different discussion but I feel our cooling system works extremely well to the point where the fan literally NEVER comes on unless sitting in traffic.

If ATR would simply let us change the heat table which does not exist to us and turn fan on sooner problems would be alot less.

Why are we discussing spending more fucking money on more fucking parts when our stock system can handle anything with the fan actually on ...

Originally Posted by 8.5MS3 meh im just installing the koyo, we will see what else i have to do from there if more is needed, upgraded fans will be my next step, but i doubt it fyi my biggest heat issues are in August, in a parking lot, during autox where there is no real speed to actually help the cooling system do its thing BAT's in the 170s were another issue, meth solved that

WHile staging I push my car with it off. and hood popped

actually if track rules allow it I am going to remove my hood completely when I goto track next and leave that bitch at home.

[Lex]

Originally Posted by Nitr0EngiE I am sorry but I feel all of this discussion is kinda pointless I feel we only need the fan to kick on at 200 instead of 217 oe whenever it kicks on and problem fucking solved on stock system if there is anything wrong with stock parts that a different discussion but I feel our cooling system works extremely well to the point where the fan literally NEVER comes on unless sitting in traffic. If ATR would simply let us change the heat table which does not exist to us and turn fan on sooner problems would be alot less. Why are we discussing spending more fucking money on more fucking parts when our stock system can handle anything with the fan actually on ... WHile staging I push my car with it off. and hood popped actually if track rules allow it I am going to remove my hood completely when I goto track next and leave that bitch at home.

The hood does a lot for cooling as it helps air pass through the radiator as well as aerodynamics.

[superskaterxes]

so who wants me to build a MS3/6 specific fan controller kit?

=D

[sidekick]

Originally Posted by superskaterxes so who wants me to build a MS3/6 specific fan controller kit? =D

do it plz. Make my life easy lol

[Snyeed]

this is a big problem that I have to deal with myself, Its only mid 60's here during the day but my coolant temp have already gotten up to 219 in traffic.

I have replaced my thermostat a few times last summer thinking that it was acting up but I still have heat issues.

I remember someone saying that they saw better cooling temps with a fmic when the core was directly against the radiator not spaced out, that is going to be my first plan of attack.

I see the upgraded koyo radiator and another fan in my future.

Originally Posted by superskaterxes so who wants me to build a MS3/6 specific fan controller kit? =D

YES PLEASE!

I know @mason was talking about cutting his hood to install hood louvers, a couple inverted scoops like the gtr's have would be awesome.

[Voltwings]

Should we weigh the benefits of Cooling the physical parts in the engine vs cooling the engine bay? For example, the hood on the ZL1 camaro has that scoop to pull like 1/3 of the air going through the radiator out of the top, thats hot air that never has a chance to get into the engine bay.

Remove rear weather stripping, maybe have holes in fender liner, kinda Evo X style to pull air out of engine bay, maybe run that tubing people use for brake ducts, but just point it at something hot? Basically anything to keep the bay cool, and subsequently the things in the bay cooler?

i feel this is Basically a "stage 2 esque" approach to things, but thats what most of my modifications have been to do, just get the hot air out you know.

[sidekick]

Originally Posted by Voltwings Should we weigh the benefits of Cooling the physical parts in the engine vs cooling the engine bay? For example, the hood on the ZL1 camaro has that scoop to pull like 1/3 of the air going through the radiator out of the top, thats hot air that never has a chance to get into the engine bay. Remove rear weather stripping, maybe have holes in fender liner, kinda Evo X style to pull air out of engine bay, maybe run that tubing people use for brake ducts, but just point it at something hot? Basically anything to keep the bay cool, and subsequently the things in the bay cooler? i feel this is Basically a "stage 2 esque" approach to things, but thats what most of my modifications have been to do, just get the hot air out you know.

Someone tried to remove the rear weather stripping @dale_gribble;?) and IIRC, it didn't do anything.

I'm actually wondering why I've never seen many ceramic coated parts on here. It may not reduce coolant temps or anything, but it will definitely help with over all underhood temps. I think that ceramic coated hotside IC piping and ceramic coated manifold/hotside/downpipe would decrease underhood temps by a fair margin and actually help performance slightly.

[Voltwings]

Originally Posted by sidekick Someone tried to remove the rear weather stripping @dale_gribble;?) and IIRC, it didn't do anything. I'm actually wondering why I've never seen many ceramic coated parts on here. It may not reduce coolant temps or anything, but it will definitely help with over all underhood temps. I think that ceramic coated hotside IC piping and ceramic coated manifold/hotside/downpipe would decrease underhood temps by a fair margin and actually help performance slightly.

It may not decrease temps by any significant amount, but take it off, idle your car for 5-10 minutes and go put your hand there and feel the heat coming off haha. It certainly cant hurt removing the stripping. I have a post further up where i removed a bunch of stuff and saw a ~7* drop in coolant temps, so keeping the bay cool may have a "butterfly effect" so to speak.

[Jh8909]

I have a ceramic coated k04, ex manifold and downpipe and removed weather stripping. Now I have no testinf to prove this but I feel as though the combination works quite well to keep a lot of the exhaust heat in, and not out.

[Todd98SE]

I can rest my hand on the downpipe within a few minutes of turning off the car. The Swain coatings are amazing.

[Fobio]

Originally Posted by sidekick Someone tried to remove the rear weather stripping @dale_gribble;?) and IIRC, it didn't do anything. I'm actually wondering why I've never seen many ceramic coated parts on here. It may not reduce coolant temps or anything, but it will definitely help with over all underhood temps. I think that ceramic coated hotside IC piping and ceramic coated manifold/hotside/downpipe would decrease underhood temps by a fair margin and actually help performance slightly.

With my build and subsequent builds we are over-seeing here in Toronto, we have the following ceramic coated:

1. Exhaust manifold
2. EWG
3. Turbo hotside

In addition:

1. Ex-mani is titanium wrapped
2. Turbo hotside has turbo blanket

On my previous build, with the GT3071R, the CP-e downpipe was also ceramic coated...once I get a cat on ethe new one, I'll likely CC it too...

[sidekick]

Originally Posted by Fobio With my build and subsequent builds we are over-seeing here in Toronto, we have the following ceramic coated: 1. Exhaust manifold 2. EWG 3. Turbo hotside In addition: 1. Ex-mani is titanium wrapped 2. Turbo hotside has turbo blanket On my previous build, with the GT3071R, the CP-e downpipe was also ceramic coated...once I get a cat on ethe new one, I'll likely CC it too...

It's good to see some people here making use of this stuff. I honestly have not seen many builds where these kind of things were done. Do you have a build thread?

[Fobio]

Originally Posted by sidekick It's good to see some people here making use of this stuff. I honestly have not seen many builds where these kind of things were done. Do you have a build thread?

I'm at work, so I don't see what pics were posted, but here it is:

http://www.mazdaspeedforums.org/foru...6-full-133925/

Piston tops and valves were also coated... =)

[SFWD 1934]

Does anyone happen to know how GPM the stock water pump flows? On the Hondas we see about 16-19 GPM. We run the half core radiators with top mounts and 4" downpipes right on top of the radiators. We would routinely see shut down temps of 230+ degrees. We started using the Davies Craig's and Meziere electric water pumps. What a huge difference it made. Now most of the guys can routinely see 185 degree temps. Now mind you some of us also run smaller lines. I myself run -16AN which has about 7/8" ID.

Jason

[silvapain]

Just some notes:

1. Radiator fans are only for cooling efficiency at idle and low speeds. They do nothing for track days or high-speed cruising.

2. Cooler Thermostats are just to lower the operating temperature. They do nothing to increase the overall cooling capacity. Using a cooler thermostat is good for reducing knock, but not for undersized cooling systems.

[Dano]

Glad to c u join the party.


Tappin

[mach69]

Originally Posted by 06Speed6 #1 water wetter #2 aux fan control #3 bigger radiator fan #4 improved radiator ducting #5 external oil cooler #6 radiator upgrade In that order.

Couldn't agree more.

If your car is track oriented an Oil Cooler and Radiator Upgrade will be the ultimate solution to your cooling problems.

Lets be honest, you can't afford to cheap out on a track car. Buy the parts, do it right or face the consequences. Broken ring lands anyone?

[mrQQ]

so has anyone actually found a cooler tstat that fits?

[Downmented]

Originally Posted by Fobio With my build and subsequent builds we are over-seeing here in Toronto, we have the following ceramic coated: 1. Exhaust manifold 2. EWG 3. Turbo hotside In addition: 1. Ex-mani is titanium wrapped 2. Turbo hotside has turbo blanket On my previous build, with the GT3071R, the CP-e downpipe was also ceramic coated...once I get a cat on ethe new one, I'll likely CC it too...

So you have the hotside ceramic coated AND you have a blankie on it? I considered doing this and was told by a few people that it might not be a good idea to do both?

Granted this might be getting us slightly off topic, but can anyone elaborate on this?

[Fobio]

Originally Posted by Downmented So you have the hotside ceramic coated AND you have a blankie on it? I considered doing this and was told by a few people that it might not be a good idea to do both? Granted this might be getting us slightly off topic, but can anyone elaborate on this?

It may have to do with the conventional wisdom of "too much of a good thing...", but from what I have read, it's common practice to do both. Supra guys do it.

[silvapain]

Originally Posted by Dano Glad to c u join the party. Tappin

Sorry, I've been AWOL lately.

[Downmented]

Originally Posted by Fobio It may have to do with the conventional wisdom of "too much of a good thing...", but from what I have read, it's common practice to do both. Supra guys do it.

Would you then ceramic coat and heat wrap the DP ?

[Fobio]

Originally Posted by Downmented Would you then ceramic coat and heat wrap the DP ?

I will likely CC it but I will not wrap the dp cuz it might get wet...after it cools down, and the Canadian salt and slush getting trapped in the wrap can't be good over time.

[silvapain]

Oh, and from the Mazda Factory Manual:

[daafisch]

Someone in the ring land thread mentioned contacting one of the Grand-Am teams. I just got this back from Gareth Nixon of Nixon Motorsport. I was asking specifically about race applications.

Hello John,

A three core radiator from Fluidyne is an affordable option, then replace the original fan and shroud with a high volume fan running constantly. We tried different oil coolers but saw no gain, the original oil/water cooler at the filter housing is a good system. If you remove the front bumper you will see a large structure which blocks air to half the radiator, you can fabricate a tubular replacement or with the use of a cutting wheel gut the oem one so every inch of air can get through. You also need to seal all the openings around the rad so all the air is forced through. Fit a good digit temp gauge and you should not see over 200f.

All the best,
Gareth Nixon


EDIT:
Tom from i-MOTO racing also just responded with this. Again I was asking specifically about racing applications.

Jon,

We are happy to answer questions.

We use a custom radiator, and the stock oil cooler. We typically never get above 180-190 water temp during a weekend, and that would be in the draft. Most of the time we are running in the 160-170 range water temp. We remove the stock fans, and replace them with a single motorsport fan, wired to a manual switch. We typically get a full season out of our engines, 2 of the cars are on their 2nd season on the engines. The only reason the 3rd car has a new one for this year, is the old engine was damaged in a crash at Lime Rock 2012.

If there is enough demand, we can start selling the radiators on our web store. They would cost around $2200.00 each. They are a direct bolt in.

Tom Badger
I-Moto Racing

[Dano]

Originally Posted by silvapain Oh, and from the Mazda Factory Manual:

not sure I like it waiting to go full open until 207.

has anyone sourced a direct replacement cooler tstat? I will have a brand new LB coming next week and I want to put in a cooler unit along with Ant's fan control kit.
@Ziggo;