MZR DISI Ringland Failures

[BlueStreak]

Since the release of the MS3/MS6 platform, car enthusiasts have been pushing the envelope of what initially was a very difficult car to make power from. As a result, blowing a rod out the side of the block was not uncommon. Some members were proactive in dealing with the platform by leaving it altogether while others stuck around. Time passed, more knowledge was gained on the inner workings of the car, the engine and the tuning. Popping motors due to rod failure became less common.

Now a new problem has come to pass; cracked ringlands. Cracked ringlands generally arise from detonation (too much spark advance for instance) or excessive heat. Cracked ringlands caused by excessive heat generally occurs when the ring ends (the gap in the rings) butt up against one another, then exert vertical force between the piston ringlands causing the them to crack.

How do I know I have cracked ringlands?
The only way to really know for sure is to open up the motor and inspect. Generally, a telltale sign has to do with a marked loss in compression in one or more cylinders. For instance, if your compression numbers look like 180-180-150-180, it is highly likely that cylinder 3 has a cracked ringland. Shooting out dipsticks and pushing oil out of the valvecover vent can also be indicators.

Personally, I suspect that cracked ringlands have been around far longer than initially thought as some folks decide to part out their cars and sell them after discovering their engine is hurt. At this point, the car still operates and for the *most* part, its hard to tell something is wrong unless you have a keen sense of what is going on under the hood or feel a noticeable loss in power. The latter is sometimes less obvious than you think.

We should start documenting who HAS verified that they have cracked ringlands in their motor. Format is as follows:

Model/Year:
Mileage:
Compression Results:
Cylinders /w Cracked Ringlands:
Suspected Event Causing Failure, Condition of Affected Cylinder(s) and Other Info:
Pictures:

I'll start.
Model/Year: 2007 MS3
Mileage: ~85K KMs
Compression Results: 180-180-150-180
Cylinders /w Cracked Ringlands: Cylinder 3
Suspected Event Causing Failure, Condition of Affected Cylinder(s) and Other Info: Summer 2011 Time Attack. 35*C temps. 230-240*F coolant temps. GT3071R. Spraying meth. No KR as per AccessPORT. Cylinder bore was perfect.
Pictures:



Database Listing

Originally Posted by Fobio Model/Year: 2008 MS3 Mileage: ~110K KM's Compression Results: 180-180-165(?)-180 Cylinders /w Cracked Ringlands: Cylinder 3 Suspected Event Causing Failure and Other Info: Logging since 2009, about 650 logs in. Time attack's through 2008 and 2009, along with testing, track days, and nightly logging on the closed-circuit Mexican test track. Pictures: I will update with a couple of pics if I can find them.

Originally Posted by Dano Model/Year: 2007 MS3 GT Mileage: ~55K Compression Results: 180-180-150-180 Cylinders /w Cracked Ringlands: Only #3 Suspected Event Causing Failure and Other Info: Aug 2012 - 100+* temps, GT2871/meth/E40 at ~380WHP- suspect that summer heat, a malfunctioning tstat, and numerous WOT tuning runs caused the failure due to top ring butting. No deto events noted. Probably put an additional 5K miles on the motor post failure. Symptoms: loss of about 30WHP via VD graphs, tons of oil entering the intake via the VC vent. Enough to soak the maf after a while causing obvious driveability issues. This was what she looked like immediately after being pulled from the cylinder, ring orientation unchanged. Looks like the rings had rotated in the cylinder from a 90* position to the pin. I guess the large lose section of ringland contributed to this. IDK Hard to see here but you can see the shiny area on the ringland right where the ring butted, removing the carbon from the ringland. The shiny line is at a 90* angle from the land which was where the edge of the ring contacted it...IMO at least

Originally Posted by phate This is an example of an engine that was run very hard for a long time. Iirc, it did suffer from somewhat high ECT's part of the time. This was a local guy's car that was tuned prior to him moving into the area. Model/Year: 2007 MS3 Mileage: ~80k Compression Results: Unk Cylinders /w Cracked Ringlands: 2/3/4 shattered Suspected Event Causing Failure and Other Info: Long term, WOT detonation with GT3076 and pump 93 (too aggressive of tune) Pictures: Pieces of piston 4 exploded into the intake manifold, and were sucked back into the other cylinders where they bounced around (you can still see the deto marks pretty well, though). The engine let go in the high revs, and had been experiencing boost spike issues with the GT3076/MBC/improperly adjusted preload on the IWG. //One photo chosen from several. For more info, click here. ~BlueStreak

Originally Posted by mzr0818 105k, Stock K04, 33% E85 mix. Massive oil usage due to failed PCV and Turbo seals. 189, 70, 137, 188 compression Attachment 98282

Originally Posted by ciezczak1 Model/Year: MS6 Mileage:91xxx Compression Results:145 120 45 140 Cylinders /w Cracked Ringlands: Cylinder 3 Suspected Event Causing Failure and Other Info: Extremely bad gas mileage previous owner took shit care of it.

Originally Posted by taf0422 Just got word on my pistons. I will update when I get more. Year/model: 2007 MS3 Mileage: Exactly 95,000 miles Compression: 180-180-180-90 Cylinder with cracked piston: Cracked ring cylinder 4 Suspect event : old age and motor being pushed. Cylinder 4 misfire. Car almost overheated over the summer due to thermostat. HT65 turbo installed at 30,000 miles with 390tq. BNR installed at 88,000 miles with 390-400tq. So 65k miles at 390-400TQ. Spraying meth for most of the engines life as well.

Originally Posted by JCMS07 Model/Year: 2007 MS3 Mileage: 128,079 Compression Results: 155-127-45-169 Cylinders /w Cracked Ringlands: 1,2 & 3 Suspected Event Causing Failure, Condition of Affected Cylinder(s) and Other Info: Pushed the car hard at the track and coolant temps would reach 235. Insulator for spark plug in Cylinder 2 cracked during a pass down the 1/4 mile. Click here for pictures.

[MS6_Newb]

Are those factory pistons? How much power were you running?

[BlueStreak]

Originally Posted by MS6_Newb Are those factory pistons? How much power were you running?

Yep. Stock pistons.

Never dynoed/vdynoed so I'm kinda shooting from the hip. I'd say 330whp at the time.

[phate]

@Lex; will be interested in this, I bet. Feel free to delete this post if you update the op with his mention.

I'll post up a few pictures later. I have over 100 pics from that teardown.

[Fobio]

Model/Year: 2008 MS3
Mileage: ~110K KM's
Compression Results: 180-180-165(?)-180
Cylinders /w Cracked Ringlands: Cylinder 3
Suspected Event Causing Failure and Other Info: Logging since 2009, about 650 logs in. Time attack's through 2008 and 2009, along with testing, track days, and nightly logging on the closed-circuit Mexican test track.
Pictures: I will update with a couple of pics if I can find them.





Dave is right in that most will not notice the issue. The best way to notice through logging is that no matter what you do, you won't be making anymore power, and will slowly begin to creep downwards...you will notice this on VD, all else being equal.

I was making about 360whp on the GT3071R when it began to deteriorate.

[mrQQ]

may I suggest to also state how your bore looked after this?
also, how you noticed this.

also, just a side note, mine is also cylinder #3

[BlueStreak]

Originally Posted by mrQQ may I suggest to also state how your bore looked after this? also, how you noticed this. also, just a side note, mine is also cylinder #3

Great point. I'll update OP when I get behind a computer again.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Fobio]

Originally Posted by mrQQ may I suggest to also state how your bore looked after this? also, how you noticed this. also, just a side note, mine is also cylinder #3

I don't have pics, but the machine shop that did my tear-down and @Celestspeed3 confirmed that there were NO OTHER damage what so ever...bore was fine.

[Dano]

So here are my particulars

Model/Year: 2007 MS3 GT
Mileage: ~55K
Compression Results: 180-180-150-180
Cylinders /w Cracked Ringlands: Only #3
Suspected Event Causing Failure and Other Info: Aug 2012 - 100+* temps, GT2871/meth/E40 at ~380WHP- suspect that summer heat, a malfunctioning tstat, and numerous WOT tuning runs caused the failure due to top ring butting. No deto events noted. Probably put an additional 5K miles on the motor post failure.

Symptoms: loss of about 30WHP via VD graphs, tons of oil entering the intake via the VC vent. Enough to soak the maf after a while causing obvious driveability issues.

This was what she looked like immediately after being pulled from the cylinder, ring orientation unchanged. Looks like the rings had rotated in the cylinder from a 90* position to the pin. I guess the large lose section of ringland contributed to this. IDK



Hard to see here but you can see the shiny area on the ringland right where the ring butted, removing the carbon from the ringland. The shiny line is at a 90* angle from the land which was where the edge of the ring contacted it...IMO at least



top



cylinder wall



number 3 plug was getting a bit nasty looking and number 1 as well. Those of you who followed my threads will remember #1 had 1 valve that looked like a DI valve with 50k miles on it yet it was walnut blasted just a few thousand miles before this pic.

[mrQQ]

4 out of 4 #3 ?

[Dano]

3 is likely the hottest cylinder of them all due to IM design coupled with how the coolant flows

My bores measured out fairly uniform on 1 & 2 yet 3 & 4 were more deformed.


Tappin

[Fobio]

We have a local whose low-mileage Gen2 busted a cyl 4. But majority of issues we have seen is cyl 3...

[Lex]

Let's keep track of where the ringland cracks as well. Dave and Dan both you guys have the crack on the exhaust side of the piston correct? Interestingly this is the side of the bore that gets fuel soaked

[Domino81]

Is this completely power-related or heat/knock related?

[rfinkle2]

Fobio, were you spraying meth? I know Dano was spraying pre-throttle body and Bluestreak was spraying into the intake manifold runners.

[Fobio]

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 Fobio, were you spraying meth? I know Dano was spraying pre-throttle body and Bluestreak was spraying into the intake manifold runners.

Yes...I was spraying meth before going BT...which might've helped with the heat management for the tiny K04. My meth mix is usally 50/50, but for cleaning purposes I have ran up to 63 meth/37 water.

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by Fobio Yes...I was spraying meth before going BT...which might've helped with the heat management for the tiny K04. My meth mix is usally 50/50, but for cleaning purposes I have ran up to 63 meth/37 water.

I hesitate to even post this because it will cause a ton of worrying for probably no reason, but there was a time when some of the evos were cracking pistons and ringlands from the drastic heating and cooling changes from meth injection.

[Dano]

damn you finkle!!

IDK thought in all cases. I was spraying meth for years before my piston broke. Now it could have been the extreme AMB heat along with broken tstat heated up the piston at that time last year more than any other and a shot of M10 100% meth at 26 PSI caused the damage.

no way to prove it one way or the other I suppose. Interesting that most failures to date are #3 which gets hotter and more airflow which = more meth

for now, I will continue to believe it was entirely heat related

[Domino81]

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 I hesitate to even post this because it will cause a ton of worrying for probably no reason, but there was a time when some of the evos were cracking pistons and ringlands from the drastic heating and cooling changes from meth injection.

I was honestly leaning toward meth for a power adder once the BNR was in, but after hearing that... I'm leaning toward E85.

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by Domino81 I was honestly leaning toward meth for a power adder once the BNR was in, but after hearing that... I'm leaning toward E85.

By far the safer option in almost all aspects.

That being said, I do run a meth kit too.

[Standsideways]

http://www.injectordynamics.com/AlcoholArticle.html

Just cuz...

[Fobio]

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 By far the safer option in almost all aspects. That being said, I do run a meth kit too.

My perspective is that meth should NOT be used as a power-adder period...it's just there to give you a bit more head-room with regards to knock and act as a cleaning agent. Eth and NOS are likely more effective and less costly as a power adder.

[Lex]

Originally Posted by rfinkle2 I hesitate to even post this because it will cause a ton of worrying for probably no reason, but there was a time when some of the evos were cracking pistons and ringlands from the drastic heating and cooling changes from meth injection.

We inject fuel directly on the top of the piston - hard to believe WMI injected prior to the throttle body cools the piston in a more dramatic fashion.

When E85 is not available WMI is the next "best" solution to allow more timing - especially in places with really poor fuel.

[taf0422]

Mine would be cylinder 4 . Lol. I like to be different

[atvfreek]

Originally Posted by taf0422 Mine would be cylinder 4 . Lol. I like to be different

Anxious to see what is found during tear down.

[atvfreek]

To add to the conversation, I highly doubt meth is at fault. The common thing I see here is very high coolant temps, very aggressive driving/racing and aggressive tunes. There is no doubt each of these cars went through hundreds, if not thousands of wot pulls.

After deleting a bunch of my logs, I started fresh and I'm already up over 500 datalogs on the AP. That is not including track runs, street racing in Mexico, or just spirited driving. Needless to say these cars take A LOT of abuse.

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by Lex We inject fuel directly on the top of the piston - hard to believe WMI injected prior to the throttle body cools the piston in a more dramatic fashion. When E85 is not available WMI is the next "best" solution to allow more timing - especially in places with really poor fuel.

It was only speculation @ that time and a clear cut answer never evolved. I don't know how it can be said that methanol is not cooling the combustion chamber, but you are far more engineering minded than I.

[mrQQ]

FWIW, my care has never tracked, only few times of extensive spirited driving, otherwise, eager street drive.

The only thing I might have done wrong tune wise is aggressive low load/low rpm timing.

[jman46]

Very interesting and good shit. Though, my car never experienced this with having 93k on it. My buddy's turbo'd Mini Cooper S had the same thing, except his was the #4 cylinder. Ironic.

[sidekick]

Now I'm worried about a cracked ringland... My compression test results were 190 - 165 - 150 - 175. I guess that might explain why I'm making such little power at 18PSI. I just spent a couple minutes googling cracked ringland symptoms and it seems like a lot of people experience almost nothing besides a loss of power and find low compression on the cylinder with the cracked ringland. Some do experience a a rough idle, a lot of smoke and mis-fires though, so it seems like it's kind of hit or miss on what you should be looking out for.

[daafisch]

I haven't taken the motor apart (and can't until I find a daily driver) so I can't confirm but I currently have low compression in cyl 2 and blowing oil out of the VC vent. I've been doing time attacks and track days for the past 3 summers. I know at Watkins Glen my coolant reached up into the 230's

[MajesticBlueNTO]

Originally Posted by Fobio Model/Year: 2008 MS3 Mileage: ~110K KM's Compression Results: 180-180-165(?)-180 Cylinders /w Cracked Ringlands: Cylinder 3 Suspected Event Causing Failure and Other Info: Logging since 2009, about 650 logs in. Time attack's through 2008 and 2009, along with testing, track days, and nightly logging on the closed-circuit Mexican test track. Pictures: I will update with a couple of pics if I can find them. Dave is right in that most will not notice the issue. The best way to notice through logging is that no matter what you do, you won't be making anymore power, and will slowly begin to creep downwards...you will notice this on VD, all else being equal. I was making about 360whp on the GT3071R when it began to deteriorate.

^Picture within the quote

[802MS3]

whats to stop this on a built motor?

[sidekick]

Originally Posted by 802MS3 whats to stop this on a built motor?

Stronger materials and appropriate ring gaps for the intended application.

[phate]

Originally Posted by sidekick Stronger materials and appropriate ring gaps for the intended application.

That, and a reasonable tune that doesn't risk getting into detonation. Knock will kill even the strongest parts if it happens often enough.

[Tomas]

I think this whole cracked ring land issue is exclusive to Canadians and old people.
So if you are either, you are at high risk.
And if you are both, you might as well go buy a new engine.

[Dano]

[mrQQ]

Thing is, I doubt any of the ringland cracks were caused by deto.

[Tomas]

Originally Posted by Dano

lolololol. At least you are not too old not to recognize the reference.
Glad to see you are not completely senile - yet.

[rfinkle2]

Originally Posted by Lex We inject fuel directly on the top of the piston - hard to believe WMI injected prior to the throttle body cools the piston in a more dramatic fashion. When E85 is not available WMI is the next "best" solution to allow more timing - especially in places with really poor fuel.

I went back to read what I had in the past and, as always, you are correct 100%. I re-read the many threads that were related to pistons cracking on different platforms and it all agrees with improper flow balance, not thermal expansion and contraction.

I cannot for the life of me find the thread I was looking for, but the common theme was 1 cylinder not getting the BENEFITS of WMI and over-tuning the remainder of the cylinders based on not seeing the detriment of improper flow on that 1 cylinder.

If someone could enlighten me on why there is speculation that the direct port injection manifold that is out now is a possible cause of a pooling issue, I would appreciate that, considering I bought one and am hesitant to install it until everything is hashed out.