OMG, this sucks for all of us.

[ptperformance]

Why why why why?

So lets start with the why...

You bought your turbo car to make power and it was DI'ed which has huge advatages right? Well yes it does, but wait.... did anyone thing about this problem (view pictures now). Nope, that is the crap getting built up in your runners, valve head, intake manifold, ect ect. Where ever it can collect its going to. Know why? Because there is no fresh fuel running over the runners from the injectors or any other source to clean them. Your getting all the oil and contaiminated air collecting on the walls and valves creating an issue with not only performance but also MPG from the fuel comsumption.

Seems that something got missed when they were testing the design of the PCV system or else where in the oil control.

It will take induction services and regular cleanings at the tune of $100 to $199 dollars at most shops but the real problem is how many are you going to have to do in order to get it clean the first time? I would have to say that every 9k miles this service should be performed in order to keep it clean and in working perfect order. Next, how do you do the induction service? I am looking into that right now. You do it at the t-body opening but the location sucks for an induction system service, so I will be taking a look at other options here soon enough. This is just horrible that something like this happens with our cars, sorry for the bad news.

[bova]

why don't you just run some fuel system cleaner through?

[Darksun280]

Originally Posted by bova80 why don't you just run some fuel system cleaner through?

I think its cause of the same reason theres build up on the first place. fuel doesn't pass over those areas.

[ptperformance]

Originally Posted by bova80 why don't you just run some fuel system cleaner through?

Where and how? There are no injectors to run it over that and you have only 2 locations for sucking any kind of cleaner up into the intake manifold to clean that off. They are both a pain in the ass to get to.

Remember that our engines are DI'ed and there is no fuel that passes over the intake manifold or the runners in the head, its all air and what ever that air can bring with it. In this case its oil from the piss poor PCV system.

[Haltech]

wow, totally not cool man!

[LBV]

Would a catch can help you think?

[Haltech]

wont help that much... think about the heat of the cyl head and no fluid running through it.

NOW.. i know ONE thing that WILL help this situation.. Water/Meth injection.. Im tossing one on for this simple problem, alone.

[4DRHTRD]

NITROUS FTW!!!

[Haltech]

Originally Posted by 4DRHTRD NITROUS FTW!!!

Only if it was a wet kit. Otherwise, its only going to help horsepower and no clean up the induction system

[speed3]

time to sell this piece of shit and get a 2005 srt-4.

[Haltech]

Or you can just wait for the class action lawsuit to appear.

[digitaljedi]

God how could mazda make SO many mistakes with this car.

[bova]

well it could be a large suit because it would affect speed6, speed3 and cx-7 owners.

[LBV]

Read what the Lexus tech said here ... Things that make you go... Hmmm - Mazda6 / Atenza

[Haltech]

Good info and makes sense... Something wet needs to be sprayed into the intake track.

[lazyboi808]

um............meth or nos...hmmmm we need to fix this bs...before i go an spend thousands on this car ...just to figure out it was a waste.....

[mrlilguy157]

carbon build up for the lose I'll be cleaning up mine while its out of the car, with seafoam.

[Haltech]

Have you looked at your head yet Jon? I know you got some miles on yours and was wondering if you could comment on it.

Seafoam is good stuff, i also use it to clean the barrels of my guns. You will still need something longterm to control the buildup.

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by Haltech wont help that much... think about the heat of the cyl head and no fluid running through it. NOW.. i know ONE thing that WILL help this situation.. Water/Meth injection.. Im tossing one on for this simple problem, alone.

which one.... i was thinking of doing it as well. Now im gonna. Out of curiosity.... do you think my car will be safer as it is now. Or running 25 more horse with water/meth. im gonna shop tomorrow. I was gonna put this off until i got a new intercooler but screw it. Those pictures make your stomach tight.

[redrocketz]

seriously just use some top engine cleaner it goes into any vacuum source on the engine and works just fine. Yeah go ahead and sue Mazda for wear and tear items you will all have to go back to stock then also. Just suck it up or sell the car. we have a used engine here that looks nothing like that.

[Davidb]

Originally Posted by LBV Read what the Lexus tech said here ... Things that make you go... Hmmm - Mazda6 / Atenza

I am a lexus tech and we get at least 1 is250 in the shop with a random misfire a week. In my area we don't see as many is350's and gs350's though...

From talking to my shop forman and the higher ups at lexus its a regional thing..not all lexus dealerships are seeing this...some have it more then others...

How many miles were on that engine? How was that car driven, hard or not hard at all..ie was it babied? What kind of fuel was being used?

[subparpunk03]

So correct me if I'm wrong....

Assuming this problem is indeed caused by the lack of fuel flowing through the valves:
Seems like this is a problem that would be present on any direct injection system.

Direct injection has been used in diesel engines for a while now, and I know other companies are doing direct injection too. There are enough high mileage DI engines out there that if this was indeed a fundamental design flaw with DI then the uncontrollable carbon buildup would have been identified as an issue.

So before people go screaming "omg mazda ftl! DI is teh sux0r!" Don't freak out, don't start thinking your car is gonna explode. Its not. There may be a way to get it to run a little cleaner, but its not a cause to freak out and sell your ms3. So chill.

The problem *might* not be caused by DI, it *could* be from something else... not sure what, but lets not get carried away here.

Having said that, I think Haltech is right, WI will keep things running nice and clean, its definately been proven to help with port injected engines. Mine is going on as soon as I quit being a lazy jerk.

[Betelgeuse]

Sounds like the engine just needs to be driven hard once a while. If that's the case, I'm fine .

[AutoXRacer]

Can't the runners and valves be coated with something...like SPAM...?

[BlackMS3]

Supplementary Injectors FTW!!!

[Ziggo]

I can't say I am convinced. Diesels have been running this way for years. Exhaust valves are never "cleaned" by gasoline, yet they don't see this problem.

I agree, WI will keep the intake cleaner, but I would blame the buildup on the excessive amount of oil the PCV is blowing into the intake. This isn't as big of a deal if you have gasoline to dilute it and help it flow into the engine, thus reducing the harmful effects, but the root cause is still the oil.

[kraz3y]

anybody have a favorite water/meth kit they could recommend?

[4DRHTRD]

Originally Posted by kraz3y anybody have a favorite water/meth kit they could recommend?

I have a MAP load based meth kit that I have for sale for $325.00...
If you have an XEDE or Proceed (dunno about standback) you can output to the kit and tune it via one of the tables.
PM me if you want pics/info.

[Haltech]

Originally Posted by kraz3y anybody have a favorite water/meth kit they could recommend?

Water Methanol Injection Controllers and Systems

or something from Devil's own. Ive emailed both companies.

Originally Posted by subparpunk03 So correct me if I'm wrong.... Assuming this problem is indeed caused by the lack of fuel flowing through the valves: Seems like this is a problem that would be present on any direct injection system. Direct injection has been used in diesel engines for a while now, and I know other companies are doing direct injection too. There are enough high mileage DI engines out there that if this was indeed a fundamental design flaw with DI then the uncontrollable carbon buildup would have been identified as an issue. So before people go screaming "omg mazda ftl! DI is teh sux0r!" Don't freak out, don't start thinking your car is gonna explode. Its not. There may be a way to get it to run a little cleaner, but its not a cause to freak out and sell your ms3. So chill. The problem *might* not be caused by DI, it *could* be from something else... not sure what, but lets not get carried away here.

+1 Someone sees through the bullshit here.

Get the oil catch can done and it will reduce the oil build up. I will do the oil catch can first thing when my warranty expires.

[ptperformance]

Originally Posted by subparpunk03 So correct me if I'm wrong.... Assuming this problem is indeed caused by the lack of fuel flowing through the valves: Seems like this is a problem that would be present on any direct injection system. Direct injection has been used in diesel engines for a while now, and I know other companies are doing direct injection too. There are enough high mileage DI engines out there that if this was indeed a fundamental design flaw with DI then the uncontrollable carbon buildup would have been identified as an issue. So before people go screaming "omg mazda ftl! DI is teh sux0r!" Don't freak out, don't start thinking your car is gonna explode. Its not. There may be a way to get it to run a little cleaner, but its not a cause to freak out and sell your ms3. So chill. The problem *might* not be caused by DI, it *could* be from something else... not sure what, but lets not get carried away here. Having said that, I think Haltech is right, WI will keep things running nice and clean, its definately been proven to help with port injected engines. Mine is going on as soon as I quit being a lazy jerk.

Diesel engines run at lower temps and have much cooler intake charges, next they don't have a vacuum source that sucks oil into the intake manifold. If them did I suspect that they would have the same issues.

I think as we start to see more and more turbo'ed DI systems this problem might continue to get worse. What makes the VW not have build up like this? I say its a design flaw from Mazda and several have stated that a catch can seems to fix this problem. Maybe it was a lack of oil changes that caused this problem, one will never know but its the second car I have looked at and they both look very similar.

I agree with you that its not the DI fault and more the PCV systems design, if it were not DI then the fuel from the injectors would keep that area clean... double edged sword on this one.

Does it mean that there is no fix, no. Its something that needs to be addressed for sure and I suspect that there are others out there don't have any problems like this. There are several factors that play into making a motor look like this on the inside, all in all oil is bad to have in an intake manifold that has no fuel to wash it out. Lets get that fixed and we will all be golden from there.

[ptperformance]

Originally Posted by BlackMS3 Supplementary Injectors FTW!!!

Yep, that would fix it all up.

[ptperformance]

Originally Posted by Young Roids +1 Someone sees through the bullshit here. Get the oil catch can done and it will reduce the oil build up. I will do the oil catch can first thing when my warranty expires.

I wish it was bullshit and I hope you my reponce to his post. Why you guys keep compairing diesel motor to gas amazes me.

[ptperformance]

Originally Posted by Ziggo I can't say I am convinced. Diesels have been running this way for years. Exhaust valves are never "cleaned" by gasoline, yet they don't see this problem. I agree, WI will keep the intake cleaner, but I would blame the buildup on the excessive amount of oil the PCV is blowing into the intake. This isn't as big of a deal if you have gasoline to dilute it and help it flow into the engine, thus reducing the harmful effects, but the root cause is still the oil.

These are not the exhaust valves, those look great on the motor. AGAIN the deisel to gas compairison. Do diesels have PCV systems? EVAP systems? No, so they don't have to worry about contaimination in the intake tract. Next, what is diesel fuel? Its a lubricant and detergent (sp) in the same fluid, it keeps the valves clean at the same time lubricating them. Please guys there is nothing similar to a diesel system when compairing them to a gas system. The only thing similar is that that use pistons, rods and a block for there base motors. Other then that they are completely different when it comes to there operating systems.

[redrocketz]

actually the basic design behind Direct Injection engines comes from Diesels with their principal name direct injection diesels inject the gas right into the cylinder or into a pre-ignition chamber and they run WAAY hotter than a gasoline system. The whole idea behind Diesel is that it detonates to ignite there is no spark plug that is why they have glow plugs to heat up the cylinder temperatures in cold weather. Whether or not they have a PCV I don't recall off hand I could go home and check our truck and get back to you on that. Hell diesels don't even really have wastegates on quite a few of them because they love air to make power. So they don't have anything that runs over the valves.

[ptperformance]

Originally Posted by redrocketz actually the basic design behind Direct Injection engines comes from Diesels with their principal name direct injection diesels inject the gas right into the cylinder or into a pre-ignition chamber and they run WAAY hotter than a gasoline system. The whole idea behind Diesel is that it detonates to ignite there is no spark plug that is why they have glow plugs to heat up the cylinder temperatures in cold weather. Whether or not they have a PCV I don't recall off hand I could go home and check our truck and get back to you on that. Hell diesels don't even really have wastegates on quite a few of them because they love air to make power. So they don't have anything that runs over the valves.

Yes that is where the "design came from" but there is nothing simlar to between them. Diesels run hotter? Since when? Diesel fuel carries much more BTU's then gas but its a controlled burn vs an explosion such as gasoline. EGT's on performance car can reach as high as 1800 to 2100 degrees. Diesel motors are 1400 to 1600, run a diesel much over 1600 for any length of time and you had better kiss it goodbye.

Not only are they missing PCV systems and WGA but several of them lack a t-body and other major idle control systems. They run off pump location (throttle) and pump pressure. The valves are in fact lubed with the fuel in the motor. When a diesel is burning fuel it leaves a little left over for valve lubrication, this is called partially burnt fuel. This is designed into the operating parameters of the motor and fueling system. Where do you think that black smoke comes from? Why do they have that? Because the valve train, rings and many other operational parameters need it to survive. Hell the newer diesels use a 2 pulse injector system to keep noise down and lube the top end for longer life. Trust me, I have been working on diesels for 15 + years and was a certified Cummings and Ford diesel tech. I also worked on the land speed record holding diesel truck in 1997 - 1999, 198 MPH round trip on the salt flats. I think I have a good idea on "how" a diesel engine works.

[cld12pk2go]

WWW.ALKYCONTROL.COM

I have their kit on my Mustang and it is awesome...

There are probably some other good ones out there...

[Ziggo]

Originally Posted by ptperformance These are not the exhaust valves, those look great on the motor. AGAIN the deisel to gas compairison. Do diesels have PCV systems? EVAP systems? No, so they don't have to worry about contaimination in the intake tract. Next, what is diesel fuel? Its a lubricant and detergent (sp) in the same fluid, it keeps the valves clean at the same time lubricating them. Please guys there is nothing similar to a diesel system when compairing them to a gas system. The only thing similar is that that use pistons, rods and a block for there base motors. Other then that they are completely different when it comes to there operating systems.

The exhaust valve was bad comparision because it is cleaned by the heat.

How is diesel fuel going to end up on the seat of the intake valve when they dont inject until the power stroke?

Diesels dont detonate because they don't inject the fuel till near TDC and during the power stroke. The heat of the compressed gasses in the cylinder cause the combustion. Diesel fuel has a RON of about 15 so injecting it before you want it to light off is bad news. There is some research going on into homogenous charge diesels, but they are not out yet.

Like I said, the design flaw isnt in the DI, it is in the PCV system. The intake on (this) DI system is only different from a diesel in that it has a throttle plate. Ideally only clean dry air is entering the cylinder through the intake valve on both designs. Thats why they are being compared.

[matt8679]

How many miles were on the engine for it to look like that?

[enganear]

There are only two possible sources of carbon on the intake side of the intake valve.
1. Blowback during the initial part of scavenging.
2. Oil from the PCV

If it is due to oil, it should be much worse for engines with non-synthetic oil because of the much lower coking temperature. With the boost pressure in the MS3 intake, I would be surprised to find out it is due to blowback during scavenge.

Is there any proof the sky is falling on the MS3 DISI? The pictures at the beginning of this thread are not specifically identified as DISI pics.
-enganear