Oversized bearings mazdaspeed 3 issues

[BZiggy10]

Nice. I just received the bearings today going to install the pistons and probably the head tonight. Tomorrow the oil pump will be in and then I will do the timing and pull it off the stand to put the clutch, tranny and transfer on some time this weekend.

[crutch77]

Originally Posted by BZiggy10 Nice. I just received the bearings today going to install the pistons and probably the head tonight. Tomorrow the oil pump will be in and then I will do the timing and pull it off the stand to put the clutch, tranny and transfer on some time this weekend.

Good deal. How are you planning to keep the crank from moving while you torque the crank pulley bolt?

[BZiggy10]

I did real well when I swapped my VVT with the motor in the car still. I used the small hole and put the pin in to keep the crank at TDC, had a bolt holding the actual crank pulley, my wife stepped on the brake with the car in 6th gear, and I used a 36" pry bar and wedged the crank pulley so it wouldn't move while hitting it with the air impact in small bursts. Shit sounds like a lot but I didn't want to buy the crank holding tool and I didn't want anything to fail lol.

[crutch77]

Originally Posted by BZiggy10 I did real well when I swapped my VVT with the motor in the car still. I used the small hole and put the pin in to keep the crank at TDC, had a bolt holding the actual crank pulley, my wife stepped on the brake with the car in 6th gear, and I used a 36" pry bar and wedged the crank pulley so it wouldn't move while hitting it with the air impact in small bursts. Shit sounds like a lot but I didn't want to buy the crank holding tool and I didn't want anything to fail lol.

I NATORed up a sweet SST to keep my crank locked. Gave me peace of mind and shit didn't budge one bit.

I would also HIGHLY recommend a Torque to Angle gauge if you don't already have one. I bought this one and it performed flawlessly.

Link

Link
Link

[BZiggy10]

I don't really know what a torque angle gauge is, never used one before. Does it just tell you when you've hit the 90* mark? Nice tool by the way lol. What is it just a 1/4" or 1/8" piece of steel with a couple bolts? Genius!

[crutch77]

Originally Posted by BZiggy10 I don't really know what a torque angle gauge is, never used one before. Does it just tell you when you've hit the 90* mark? Nice tool by the way lol. What is it just a 1/4" or 1/8" piece of steel with a couple bolts? Genius!

Yep, that plus a shitload of washers to space it out from the block to make it nice and vertical.

The torque to angle gauge is a nice repeatable way to hit the angle you're shooting for. Especially important on the main bolts and head bolts. It's important to be consistent with the clamping force on all those bolts. Eyballing it or using sharpie to mark a ballpark target doesn't cut it. Follow the procedures in the manual to a T (unless you're using ARP studs, then follow those instructions )With all the money you put into a rebuild, it would be silly not to have this important tool. Auto parts stores carry them.

[06Speed6]

Omg torquing a crank bolt with an impact, tell me that I didnt just read that.

[BZiggy10]

Originally Posted by crutch77 Yep, that plus a shitload of washers to space it out from the block to make it nice and vertical. The torque to angle gauge is a nice repeatable way to hit the angle you're shooting for. Especially important on the main bolts and head bolts. It's important to be consistent with the clamping force on all those bolts. Eyballing it or using sharpie to mark a ballpark target doesn't cut it. Follow the procedures in the manual to a T (unless you're using ARP studs, then follow those instructions )With all the money you put into a rebuild, it would be silly not to have this important tool. Auto parts stores carry them.

Well damn I really did not know that. I just used the sharpie and turned it until it was at 90*.

Originally Posted by 06Speed6 Omg torquing a crank bolt with an impact, tell me that I didnt just read that.

Uh-Oh!!!! I feel like I did something dumb. Well that's just how the VVT How-to I read said they did it. I torqued it to 70 ft/lbs then marked a vertical line hit it with the impact until about 30* waited about 5 mins another 30* wait 5 another 30 until it was at the 90* mark.

This is what I did for my VVT. If I am completely wrong please let me know and I will change the way I do it when I finish rebuilding the engine here in the next couple weeks.

[crutch77]

Originally Posted by BZiggy10 Uh-Oh!!!! I feel like I did something dumb. Well that's just how the VVT How-to I read said they did it. I torqued it to 70 ft/lbs then marked a vertical line hit it with the impact until about 30* waited about 5 mins another 30* wait 5 another 30 until it was at the 90* mark. This is what I did for my VVT. If I am completely wrong please let me know and I will change the way I do it when I finish rebuilding the engine here in the next couple weeks.

Honestly, for the crank pulley bolt, that's probably fine. I know a lot of auto shops would use an impact. Still better to use a 1/2 breaker bar with a long ass cheater pipe (mine is 4') and a torque to angle gauge. No need to go incrementally if you're wrenching it. Just torque to 70 and then put some ass into it to go another 90*.

For the main/head bolts, though, you need to follow instructions to the letter, with as much precision as you are able. This is especially true if you plan to push your engine significantly past stock power levels. Any bore distortion caused by uneven clamp will cause uneven wear and at a minimum lead to bad compression. Add higher heat by pushing your engine hard and you'll have contact between your piston skirts and cylinder walls. Bad things can happen.

Now that I've hopefully scared you a little, assembling your short block isn't particularly hard. You just need to be very meticulous.

[BZiggy10]

Well I always take my time and do things right. ARP studs are easy to install any way. I've already done my Mains and about to finish up the pistons and put the head on tonight; depending on how much I drink that is....

I feel like 06SPEED6 thinks I just threaded the crank bolt and hit it with the impact until I thought it was good-n-tight lol

[crutch77]

Originally Posted by BZiggy10 Well I always take my time and do things right. ARP studs are easy to install any way. I've already done my Mains and about to finish up the pistons and put the head on tonight; depending on how much I drink that is.... I feel like 06SPEED6 thinks I just threaded the crank bolt and hit it with the impact until I thought it was good-n-tight lol

You'll do fine. Good luck with the build!

[crutch77]

Originally Posted by BZiggy10 Nice. I just received the bearings today going to install the pistons and probably the head tonight. Tomorrow the oil pump will be in and then I will do the timing and pull it off the stand to put the clutch, tranny and transfer on some time this weekend.

So how's it going?

[azazelthegreat]

Originally Posted by BZiggy10 How have these bearings worked for you since this post? I just went to put the bearings my machinist got me and same thing as OP had going on. I was aware that some people had problems finding the undersized bearings but I thought I was good because the machine guy is very knowledgeable.

Holy thread revival ill be reading more through the thread.

Originally Posted by 06Speed6 Omg torquing a crank bolt with an impact, tell me that I didnt just read that.

when i did my build we had a mazda tech there for a bit and he just impacts them on ( he's in charge of the Cx-7s)

Originally Posted by BZiggy10 Well I always take my time and do things right. ARP studs are easy to install any way. I've already done my Mains and about to finish up the pistons and put the head on tonight; depending on how much I drink that is.... I feel like 06SPEED6 thinks I just threaded the crank bolt and hit it with the impact until I thought it was good-n-tight lol

ARP head studs? or main studs
------------------------------------
One last thing for this thread since it seems like a good information thread,

I have all my over sized bearings still. I was never able to return them

[BZiggy10]

Originally Posted by crutch77 So how's it going?

Good man almost 200 miles on the new engine and it feels great. Those bearings really saved me. How is yours running?

Originally Posted by azazelthegreat Holy thread revival ill be reading more through the thread. when i did my build we had a mazda tech there for a bit and he just impacts them on ( he's in charge of the Cx-7s) ARP head studs? or main studs ------------------------------------ One last thing for this thread since it seems like a good information thread, I have all my over sized bearings still. I was never able to return them

I used ARP main and head studs. Just lubed them up with the torque fastener lube put em in hand tight and torqued em and went back over them the next day.

The crank bolt I just torqued it to 70 drew the vertical line and used a breaker bar to do the 90*. It actually wasn't as hard as I thought it would be. I'm actually upset I didn't key the crank though now after seeing exactly what is holding the timing chain in place. Next time I have my crank out it will get keyed. (unless it can be done while in the block, I have no clue haven't really done research but that would be awesome)

[crutch77]

Originally Posted by BZiggy10 Good man almost 200 miles on the new engine and it feels great. Those bearings really saved me. How is yours running?

Glad to hear it! Mine is running beautifully. 4,500 miles in now.

[El_Diablo]

Originally Posted by BZiggy10 Good man almost 200 miles on the new engine and it feels great. Those bearings really saved me. How is yours running? I used ARP main and head studs. Just lubed them up with the torque fastener lube put em in hand tight and torqued em and went back over them the next day. The crank bolt I just torqued it to 70 drew the vertical line and used a breaker bar to do the 90*. It actually wasn't as hard as I thought it would be. I'm actually upset I didn't key the crank though now after seeing exactly what is holding the timing chain in place. Next time I have my crank out it will get keyed. (unless it can be done while in the block, I have no clue haven't really done research but that would be awesome)

You wont be able to key the crank but you will be able to pin it with the proper fixture. They do this in aftermarket supercharger kits all the time.

[BZiggy10]

Originally Posted by El_Diablo You wont be able to key the crank but you will be able to pin it with the proper fixture. They do this in aftermarket supercharger kits all the time.

Yea kind of figured not being that it would need to be machined out and the timing cover would have to be off as well. Oh well maybe another time. I've never done a supercharger kit or anything how does pinning it work.

[El_Diablo]

Removing the timing cover isn't that big of a deal in the car. For pinning, you'll slip a drill fixture collar over the crank snout, cinch it down with the locating screws to keep it from walking and then drill a hole into the crankshaft to a predetermined depth. From there you insert a dowl pin into the hole and of course you'll have to have a crank pulley that will slip over this pin.

[BZiggy10]

OK that makes sense. Does any one ever do two, three or even four dowel pins for more strength? I just can't see much strength coming from just the one pin. I've seen woodruff keys snap in diesel motors.

[El_Diablo]

These aren't diesels... Typically one or two pins at most as they're made out of tool steel.

[BZiggy10]

Lol I know they aren't but some are making as much power as the diesel engines I've seen breaking woodruff keys. I would just have more peace of mind with at least two. I'm pretty sure I'm going to do this when I go BT

[crutch77]

Originally Posted by BZiggy10 Lol I know they aren't but some are making as much power as the diesel engines I've seen breaking woodruff keys. I would just have more peace of mind with at least two. I'm pretty sure I'm going to do this when I go BT

You replaced the three friction washers on the crank, right? You should be fine unless your eventually target HP is WAY up there.

[BZiggy10]

Originally Posted by crutch77 You replaced the three friction washers on the crank, right? You should be fine unless your eventually target HP is WAY up there.

Yes I sure did. I just don't like the thought of only those friction washers are holding the sprockets by pressure alone. Reassurance and a fool proof plan is always nice to have.

[El_Diablo]

There are 1k+hp LSx's using pin kits... you're over thinking it. These aren't woodruff keys, and while some MS cars might be able to make the HP of a diesel, they're not making the torque.

[BZiggy10]

Originally Posted by El_Diablo There are 1k+hp LSx's using pin kits... you're over thinking it. These aren't woodruff keys, and while some MS cars might be able to make the HP of a diesel, they're not making the torque.

Yea probably over thinking a bit. Security is just nice lol. But the diesels I am referring to are M1151 HMMWVs that really don't make a whole lot of power but I have personally seen three do the exact same thing and snap those woodruffs.

It's all good though. I will put two pins in and no one will ever have to know I went overboard on a sub 500AWHP car lol.

[El_Diablo]

But they are subject to severe use and abuse. Thats also just one particular vehicle, not all vehicles snap woodruff keys. Again, there are a ton of SBF powered mustangs that are doing just fine at over 1k hp.

[06Speed6]

These threads are really starting to bother me.

1: Horsepower and crank slip are not related - at all

2: Domestics key cranks for several reasons depending on the engine, most have far inferior designs and really need to be pined.

3: I was going to make a set of aftermarket friction washers and I didn't because I found that they are almost certainly over rated for our engine from the factory.

The washers aren't the problem.

[BZiggy10]

Originally Posted by 06Speed6 These threads are really starting to bother me. 1: Horsepower and crank slip are not related - at all 2: Domestics key cranks for several reasons depending on the engine, most have far inferior designs and really need to be pined. 3: I was going to make a set of aftermarket friction washers and I didn't because I found that they are almost certainly over rated for our engine from the factory. The washers aren't the problem.

What is crank slip related to? If the washers are not the problem then what is?

I understand that you probably know a ton more than I do but coming into a thread mad because someone has less knowledge saying that it bothers you then not giving an explanation to what you are talking about is messed up.

[06Speed6]

Crank slip is almost certainly related to softer metals being used in the oil pump and timing sprockets on the crank. Once used, the metal they are made of permanently deforms (crushes) to the shape of the friction washers. You can feel the knife edge on the friction washer mating surfaces on both sprockets. Since the friction washers are smaller than the mating surfaces of the sprockets, the second time around the sprockets crush against each other and the friction washer is not properly crushed.

The friction washer is basically a shim that is coated in diamond dust, the dust embeds itself in the shim and the opposing mating surface when properly clamped. The strength of that embedment is dependent on the depth of the embedment and the strength of the metal that the dust is embedded into.

Proper clamp absolutely requires that both surfaces be absolutely flat at a microscopic level. When reusing the sprockets (compounding the soft metal issue), the old sprockets are pitted from the previous friction washer and do not provide a flat surface for the new washers to grip.

In the case of the cams, the camshaft itself is fairly soft and after having seen quite a few cams now, the cams pretty severely wear from the friction washers used there but they don't seem to deform like the sprockets do. If you cannot see obvious machine marks on the cams mating surface, ide advise getting the surface machined and polished.

[BZiggy10]

That does make a lot of sense. Thank you for explaining. I never even looked at my sprockets for impressions left by the friction washer. I only cleaned mine up and slapped them on.

[06Speed6]

Here is the web page for our shims

EKagrip® friction-enhancing shims with electroless nickel dispersion surfaces