Port injection on a second rail for big power
 

Well we are in the midst of some awful good dialogue about where the issues may lie with the "big power" on this car. Thats all good stuff and im interested in where it may lead in the discussion of 100% direct injection for big numbers. I think we all would love to see that happen.

But i want secondary port injected fueling. Im in the 100% crowd, that this is the way to go. but i want to know if thats what you want to see.

what if it costs more to stay DI?
what if the limitations are to much to overcome?
what if we end up not having a tuning solution for DI, even if we do have the hardparts? and then need a standalone to make it happen?

when is it cheating to add port injection with a secondary fuel rail, and create a hybrid fueling option for the motor?
is it ever?
what would you be willing to do and still call your car a mazdaspeed.

I want 500whp by summer. hopefully sooner. are you guys goona be cool with how we pursue it if we make our engine a hybrid? id like to know. heres a little ole poll.

how about "medium power" i want 390hp without frankensteining my motor :ponder:

the point isnt necessarily what we want. the point of the thread is to find out what you guys would be willing to accept in the process to get there.

what if the only way you could get 390 safe was to add PI. would you consider it?

i think as a secondary option is ok but if u want a 600WHP "MZR" you could have bought a reg 3 like jake used to have and just slapped a GT35 on it. anyone can swap the head and change the fueling control but i think DI/MPI combo would be cool.

im not talking about a head swap. i knwo thats cheating, and i just editted my opening post to make that clear.

im talking about a clamped maf and map.
a flash tune around that maybe, with a piggyback to control the secondary fuel
then a traditional 350whp with DI
..... and another 350whp with PI

a hybrid solution could take us to the moon and back. it solves fuel and the ecu all in one swoop. we could have 500whp mzrs running around this summer if we did it now.

hows everybody feel about that?
im not abondoning the idea of experimentation with more on the 100% DI options. Im just sick of waiting and want to know if everybody is gonna call me a cheater, and have no interest in following suit if we do this.

i think you should do it hands down. whos to say that while experimenting with the hybrid setup you dont come up with some HUGE break through that leads to us having more info on a strictly DI solution? any forward progress is always good and with you and DCR in cahoots we are sure to succeed. do it to em randy!!!!

well even tho work hasnt started yet, we obviously have been talking at length, and for now its our gut feeling that this is the way we want to approach this.

how would eveybody feel if by the summer we were offering a built dcr motor, custom intake manifold, injectors, a solution to run it, and a tune for the $5-9k range, depending on what you wanted in the motor?

would there be any takers? who would be willing to drive in one day with your current setup and drive out a couple days later with 500+whp at that cost? anyone? .

who would bitch and say we were bastardizing the platform. im being srious here. its kind of a big question considering it is the route were currently contemplating pursuing.

is there gona be a IM option without secondary injector options on it? or atleast a way to plug them and run strictly DI?

port injection, di...no1 give a fucks. 400whp is 400whp and attainable by anything on the road. Even if u do break 400-450, its nothing special to any1 outside of this community. You wanna go big, do whatever it takes to get it there. Hell swap the srt4 engine in the for all i care lol

oh hell yes. the vast majority of guys buying dcr IMs arent gonna want to stare at plugged bungs on their IM. the design would probably be basically the same(thats up to darrell), but in order to bung it you have to build it.
you wouldnt build a IM around the holes for the injectors, and i am a fan of "pure sex" besides. plugged holes wouldnt do it for me.

do u happen to know if it would be a log style or tubular?

lol... staring at all those damn srt motors coming through there, and the one on the red sled and the race car....trust me. the thoughts crossed my mind.

he sells those fuckers with warrantys. the idea of a stroked out 700whp, a warranty, and the rest of my car perfectly intact has DEFINITELY crossed my mind. it would kinda defeat the purpose of the relationship however...lol

id say he'll probably experiment with both. i dont think thats something you do without testing. you end up with stuff like what steedspeed has had to deal with unfortunately. the last thing we want is something built with a personal preference, that doesnt work well with the car despite whatever you educated professional guesses might be.

it would be cool that you could achieve greatness with DI but if it is too much of a pain in the ass, fuck it and go port injection

I wonder how other car communities would view it. They havent dealt with the bodyblows that we have, and would probably be much more likely to write any acheivement like that off than we are.

The guys at the local meets would think it was cool, but theres no question that what was acheived in the VW community would have never made a blip here if it was done with port injection as the method.

that is a thought to consider when youre attempting/proclaiming to "advance" the platform.

I'm all for whatever we need to make the power.

An IM with port injection and a controller, along with new fuel lines, a real return system, and an aeromotive pump and regulator would be perfectly fine with me...

As long as it doesn't require ditching my standback and all the accessories I've bought for it...

yeah... no shit right? i actually think that virtually every capability that we would need is built into the thing already. id be interested in seeing exactly how it would work with greater flash tuning ability too tho.

If port injection is what has to be done to make big power, I say go for it.. If everybody seems to think that is what will fix the fueling issues we're having from DI, by switching to a hybrid system.. It's too bad we can't adjust the phasing of the injectors like the VW guys, I really hope we can overcome this problem in the future, without that it seems like we still won't be able to make as much power.. But I guess we'll find out soon enough

seriously who bought this car for direct injection. you got it cause it was cheap and fast. im with loosh. as long as its fast i dont care how it does it.

why is every1 so bent out of shape about this DI injection bullshit. Like i said, no1 outside of this community give a damn. There will be no glory, no fairy tale ending if you do it with DI, all there will be is a car with thousands dumped into it that will get walked by something of equal money. The vw guys did? Once again no1 besides the VW guys and some members on here gives a shit if theres a 600whp DI car, if that car was port injection it would achieve the same "fame". Im telling you randy, if DI does limit you, ditch it. 400whp is nothing. When i was at NRG miller was working on a rsx....it had a parachute at the back of it and was 100 street trim "stock" looking. Owner banged out 833 and wants 950 this year. Some 55 year old guy who just wants an insane street car. Now who do u think is going to get more recognition and sell more more parts. A 900whp rsx or 450whp DI mazda

+1 to Laloosh. Make the power in whatever way is the most efficient. :D

So...

Would we have the option to shut off the secondary rail and run a DI 300WHP for the street and daily driving with our 28MPG, then switch on the secondary rail for another 300WHP or so for those times when we would want to get serious??

If so.. I'm down!!

I would also agree that no one really cares how we get there as long as we get there. the head swap is pretty involved... an intake plumbed for additional injectors is not.

So fucking true chris.

i think the guys who might bitch about it are the purists who dont mod their cars much to begin with. And at the local track if we do this.... im not gonna be sitting there explaining to the guys about why i decided to fuck up the philosophy of my DI car in order to be faster than them.

Most of the guys i talk to when it comes to this motor, when i explain how it operates answer like..

that sucks, or
huh, or
they just get bored listening.

I love my car becuase its different, and difficult, and the "wave of the future", and all that snazz. But its also why i'll enjoy it even more if ever becomes a rocket. and with that setup i think it just gets better, not worse.

Big picture wise I think it defeats the purpose of owning this car with this motor in it using a PI secondary rail.

If your gonna do it for your self do the PI thing its your car and your money. If what your looking for is a product you can sell to the masses I don't think a new manifold and PI will appeal to enough of the people. ATP made a stock flanged DBB turbo for christ sakes you see they knew the type of market they would have to appeal to. Same reason only one company has attempted to come out with a standardized flanged exhaust manifold. Your car will be similar to Dee's car where everyone will know its doable and still not be quick to do it. Dee's car runs what 7's I don't believe believe he ever asked the community if It was alright for him to Frankenstein this motor and I don't see kits from him for us to do it either.

If you want to help the community help find a direct solution for the DI road block not think of a way to ignore it exists. If you want to make power do it by any means possible. I get the feeling your anxious to get back moving on your quest for power again and want to make some money on the journey there but I don't think you can worry about whats best for the platform and yourself at the same time.

Phil... you think a IM with secondary fuel rail is frankensteining the motor? its not that far beyond a meth kit for crying out loud. you could even do it with a single 5th injector if you wanted to.

plus i seriously think you are underestimating the cost of upgrading the stock fuel system. upgrading a DI system is a hell of alot more expense than the piddly shit youd have to do for what im proposing.

i think the masses would follow my way, long before they would wait and wonder and maybe evntually pay... for the DI solution that would still be much more limited even if it was solved.

Any thoughts???

oh yeah... i thought you were just saying you could do it.
of course you could do it. its exactly how they would have to be run. all tho ive never discussed thsat exact aspect of it before.

lets say if you were using the standback.... it would just be the diffeence between unclamping the maf and turning off the injectors and youd be back to 100% DI. if you had ap tunes to facilitate it you could just flash back to a "stock" map. somebody else could chime in but it seems like a joke it would be so easy.

oh yeah... youd also want to probably turn down the boost too...lol

Every1 knows i moved on the 135, the 135 is DI as well, but when we put down 400 plus with basic bolt ons, no1 mentions its DI, no1 cares. What peopel care about is dynos/track times. DI wave of the future bullshit, thats just something we're brainwashed into. There is NOTHING better about DI when it comes to making power. So big deal we can run higher compression and run a lil leaner, who cares, the power in the end is limited and not there

don't see a reason to even complicate the system like that.

Your running the additional injectors on a map based off the MAF/RPM, if your running low boost makiung only 300 hp, they'd be off anyways.

Correction randy I think the secondary rail just ignores the fact the car is DI and stresses even more everyone wishes the motor was easy to deal with like FI.

Changing the entire fuel system can't be so bad if APR is doing it BUT they seem to have control of there cars ECU logic to utilize it. Some one needs to sit down with those guys and pick there brains or hand them over a stock Ms3 and some cash and say "figure this shit out too". This ain't my fight anymore since I've obviously waved the white flag early myself but I think the quest for power needs to stop and trying just to understand the car we have needs to start. We're looking for power mean while we are basically still driving around a big question mark with 4 wheels.

would we run it off of maf? i prefer the idea of just eliminating the goddam maf from the equation at that power level. plus with my way it would be clamped.

explain your philosophy on this a little more.

At this point I say screw it. Port injection will work. If someone eventually figurs out how to do it with just the DI great, but I'm not going to wait around for someone to re-invent the wheel...

Getting rid of the maf is a smart move.

i think this sounds like you have been staring at a flooded river trying to figure out how to swim across it when there is a bridge right next to you. The point is to get to the other side. pure and simple.
And in the near future, the guys who dont cross the bridge are gonna be still staring at the river while the guys that crossed the bridge are gonna be long gone.

I think switching to speed density will be a HUGE headache if your going to try and keep the stock ECM.

The OEM MAF will work just fine in the 3.25" housing, and if/when we start pegging it there is no real need to keep the OEM MAP other than the IAT sensor. What's to stop us from just leaving it laying next to intake under the hood with only the IAT actually connected. Then just swap in a 4" MAF and have CP-E make another calibration flash. We are already doing the same thing when we add the AEM 3.5 bar MAP while leaving the OEM BAT connected.. I don't think anyone will peg a 4" MAF for a LONG time..

If the ECM can uderstand the actual airflow it can better calculate the load and adjust timing and cam phasing properly.. Clamping the MAF is like blindfolding the driver and giving directions from the passenger seat..

Yeah. But funny thing is Nitrous fixes all the issues we have and is available. To make a bolt on kit would be simple enough and im damn sure you'll hit any number you want. But no ones really going to look into it cause many people frown apon a second power adder just like how they'll frown apon a secondary fuel rail.

IMO people frown on nitrous because when your bottle is empty or the valve is closed your cars slow again...

Most people that looked under our hood and saw the port inection rail would think it was the only one, and wouldn't know otherwise unless we told them...

youre trying to compare nitrous and gasoline as power adders? come on now.

this is about how we deliver gasoline into our motor and overcome the ecus limitations with controlling delivery. would a secondary cam driven pump be acceptable if it solved the problem? of course it would. than why not secondary PI as the gasoline source.

no buttons, no nos.... just boost and fuel. with massive daily driveable power on demand with the pedal, and refillable at bp or exxon.

i guess the purpose of the thread was to encourage debate and seee what guys thought. i just didnt think youd be on that side of the fence. its cool.... im just surprised.

Sorry if this has been covered (flame suit on) but why can't we go the usual route for fueling issues?

If the injector can't get enough fuel in no matter how long its open why can't we use a larger cc injector? (ie: 300cc to 500cc).

If they don't exist why can't we get them made?

Personally I think it's about being different from other cars and solving problems that we come across. Not just "using what works". I think the direct injection is cool. Not that many people know about DI and are intrigued when I talk about it.

It feels like people are taking the easy way out and it sucks. If everyone did that we would have no advancements. I'd like to be able to look back on this issue and say "The fueling issue was solved by Randy and DCR because he took the initiative".

I wasn't involved when whoosh sourced the ported injectors that I bought from him, but IIRC the shop that did the work said that 20% larger was as big a they could go. We do not have any off the shelf upgrades available(like the VW guys do), nor do we have the market to get something made. The tooling costs on custom injectors would probably be higher than the total sales could ever reach..

When your dealing with fueling that's no longer designed as individual components, but engineered from the ground up as a complete system, it becomes VERY hard to increase capacity without modifying virtually every part of that system.. We aren't talking about taking the easy way out, as there is NO easy way.

Look i hear you... but DCR is not gonna look at DI and think its "cool" for big power. Why? Because its not.

And second of all.... as much as i want a 100% DI mazdaspeed making 500-600whp. Im not going to encourage DCR to spend months/years trying to unlock this car with their money and mine just to say we did it..... with no gaurantees we can. If it happens it happens. Were either gonna be able to do it with SSinstallers setup and ecu control... or it isnt gonna happen. there wont be anything to investigate other than an entire new DI fuel system, and a full standalone. and there isnt gonna be ANYBODY who is gonna spring for the cost of that only to be locked back in to another fucking cement wall 100whp later either.

Sorry for that... lol it wasnt meant to be a flamefest, but ive been gnawing on this for awhile now.

No problem... Just trying to understand where we are. What is SSinstaler setup? I haven't heard of it yet.

Kenny belle boost-a-pump on the intank pump, Mrlilguy upgraded HPFP, PTP modified dump valve, ported HP rail feed line, ported fuel rail, OEM injectors ported to 20% higher flow.

if the tuning solutions availble now, either on there own, or in tandem...cant control all that and make some sort of a breakthrough past a measly 400hp, then....

were fucked as far as im concerned.

What is this setup limiting you to fuel wise? or has it not been fully tested yet?

I have no idea, only the boost-a-pump was installed before the OEM motor came out last October. We'll see what happens after the new MOTOR/TURBO/IC/MAF/EVERYTHING is in and running...whenever that may be...lol

I've got no preference for keeping this DI by any means ... if it takes PI to get to the other side, I say go for it.

BTW, as an fyi Cobb has released speed density tuning for the Subies back in February.

i sure hope you'll consider getting that thing up to darrell for a week when its running. if it shows promise that might be our best bet to still investigate a full DI solution for those that prefer that route.
Luckily we'll have that to learn from before my prefered route comes to fruition whether you make it up here or not.

Its not even over yet guys, its just beginning...

Ford's about to take and release full scale direct injection in their cars... Which means, more and more people are going to attack this and figure it out if we cant do it within our own niche. Until then, secondary injectors is worth a shot.:bigok:

this thread is interesting, because i'm exploring the possibilities of putting a big 4bbl holley carb on the car. this way i take two steps backwards, and i don't need to add any additional electrical things in order to make it work. what you got on that shit?

DI and FI are the future (fuck, it's already here). i think the better way to go about the 'problem' is dealing with it head on instead of beating around it and avoiding it. hopefully soon it will be hard to find a port injected car, just like you don't see carbs on cars anymore. they are inferior to DI, DUH!

twin turbo V6 mustang ftw... i'm excited for a ford actually...

Do it. If for nothing else than to experiment with a different solution. Everyone will learn something.

like what? port injection makes power?

Im with theses guys. Instead of fixing the problem at hand, youre avoiding it.

What about a dual fuel system using DI? Two OEM DI injectors firing into each cylinder?

Im saying it will be frowned apon cause its embarrassing to need two different power adders or two different fueling solutions to get over what 350whp?

Like I said Randy if its for your personal car then do what ever you need to do. Dee chose to Frankenstein the motor and you want to add a secondary FI rail. The ends justify the means. BUT if you want to do whats best for the community as a whole figuring out how to get over the DI hurdle is best IMO.

Any way adding a secondary fuel rail doesn't change the fact that the motor is still DI and STILL has the same DI window. Having low pressure injectors in a different rail trying to add fuel quick enough when the motor wants it during the intake stroke doesn't seem like it has much chance of working to me. Reason why nitrous worked well for me and straight meth would work as well is cause it was mixing in with the air so it was still playing by the Rules of DI. It was there waiting for fuel and spark already not trying to add itself in at the right time. I have a feeling integrating a low pressure injection system is going to end up being a pain in the ass. When you ignore the actual problems or issues they usually end up coming back later on to haunt you again.

Everyone knows I'd do what ever it takes to make power I could give two shits about whats kosher and whats not but doing what's best for an individual and whats best for a whole community are two totally different things. Hence why Dee's car is running 7's and there is no other copy of that setup.

a conversion to Dees car could be done for less than an upgraded turbo kit. it hasnt been done because nobodys offered it to the community. thats the ONLY reason.

and if the 2010 mazda3 uses the same damn head as we do then all this "omfg DI design is so hard" bullshit flys out the window. they plug the damn holes phil. its friggin ghetto. mazda didnt think it was that big a deal. hell we could probably make 500whp just using mazda oem parts, if we used a 2010 intake manifold and mazdas injectors that come with the thing!!! we all just want to make this omg soooo haaard. fuel comes in with the intake stroke...boom....out the exhaust. simple.

p and p the head like crazy, just like any car
forged internals
BT
DI plus PI
and done.

sweet, for just $9,999, two years from now we could offer... a complete custom topend/ head, a second fuel rail, and second upgraded cdfp, all new custom ported hardlines, dual boost a pumps, more custom ported inline pumps, more custom one off injectors, and $3k fullblown standalone that hasnt been developed yet to control it... but at least your not avoiding the problem.
You guys would eat this up right?

I'm with you and Phil on this one
adding a fuel rail in addition to the DI set up may not accomplish what everyone automatically thinks it will
Power is the objective, what's the difference between adding a turbo system to a regular mazda 3 or changing the fuel delivery on the MS3?
none IMO

phil? he's against this. did you mean loosh and everyone else..lol?

Didn't I say I was planning this exact same idea in PTP's thread?

It's not cheating. It will work. It shouldn't be terribly expensive. It would be cake to tune it with ATR or ECUEdit + a simple fuel controller. If you get DCR to make a 'kit', people would gobble it up (even the ones in here that are against it). Once they see everyone else putting down #s in the 5s and 6s, they'll be stoked. I gauran-fucking-tee it. Really, I was going to do it to a stock(ish) IM and use a cheap aftermarket rail at first. It's not going to take a shit-ton of fuel to get it working. Start small with small injectors and a small rail and just get the tune on the ECU and the secondary fuel controller figured out, then work your way up from there. You'll want the ECU to put itself into a constant state at some certain point as the secondary kicks in. Speed density would be ideal because you would only need the secondary to account for the additional air.

Go do work son!

Here's my $0.02 for what it's worth... which may not even be $0.02...

I would personally like to see how far we can take the DI on the MZR DISI engine. I'll admit it... I think adding a PI rail is a bit like cheating. Of course, since I'm not contributing to cracking the DI power wall, whether it be intellectual or financial contributions, hard for me to sit on the sidelines and whine about how the game is being played. I'll be honest and say that personally, I'll be a little more excited about, say, hitting 500WHP solely using DI (assuming we ever do) then hitting 500WHP using DI+PI. Yet, I am NOT going to be that guy talking about how DI+PI doesn't count and bullshit like that. I'll give the guys who step up and put up all the respect they deserve.

I say who gives a fuck how we get fuel to the motor.As long as we can get adequate fuel for the power we want,then lets use whatever fuel solution we need.Yes i know DI is the future,but right now its not ready for high hp.So for now we are just going to have to do a hybrid setup.

so is this platform itself a lost cause the way it stands? whoosh, teach me about bolt-ons and no tune :D

Thats the thing I'm not against it. If its for your personal car, but to say your doing it for the good of community is false IMO because I don't think it helps the development of this cars DI motor. Even if your Idea did work a year from now we'd all still be no closer to understanding DI any better we'd just have a blue print on how to ignore it.

im trying to pioneer power on the ms3 phil. im not trying to pioneer DI. i could give a fuck about being the guy who pioneers di.

this isnt about direct injection.... this is about the mazdaspeed. some cars are limited by DI, some seem not to be so much. Even if i spend a fortune in time, money and resources so i can fulfill your ridiculous definition of pioneer..... then i have accomplished nothing i could nt have done much more safely, effectively, and less expensively with additional PI.

I THINK..... the future of cheap four banger DI turbos is gonna be exactly what im doing. why not? Not this other hardheadedness that your saying is "the pioneer" way. We KNOW what the issue is and it isnt easily overcomeable on this car for big power. Knowing that now.... it needs to be scraped.
And if we "put it all together"... and someday make 400-450whp with DI alone, then i'll still be glad i didnt waste my time. Cause the car will still be slow, ferociously expensive to mod, and most important... completely irrelevent.

i have no intention of pioneering irrelevence. I want to show the way for hundreds of affordable, 400--800whp ms3-6s in a couple years time. Thats what im hoping to be the pioneer of.

How to adapt a different fueling solution to this car.

You guys are arguing over nothing. If one guy wants to make power by swapping in a v8, or using DI, or converting to port - it doesn't matter. The more solutions that are developed the better off we are.

DI is the future of spark ignited engines until electric cars take over. I wouldn't swap out my fuel system to make 500whp. But if Randy wants to, all power to him. The development and learning process of how to make it work is worth it in my opinion even if it's not a route I would take.

you do understand im only considering "secondary port injection". The car will still fuel itself 95% of the time with 100% DI. And when higher levels of boost kick in, only then would the port injectors turn on.
Personally....Im not talking about swapping heads. Im not talking about eliminating DI completely.

For the record.... regarding COST

----i have been informed that a COMPLETE port injection conversion, with no DI involved, could be accomplished for around $2000. This would be the Dee Kariginnes way. Stock bottom end, mazda3 head conversion to fit. If you wanted to, you wouldnt even have to do that. You could just do it the way the 2010s do.

---- i would think that a conversion to DI/PI hybrid fueling would be about half that, once the trail has been forged and if it was offered as a kit.

If your goals for the car were in the 400whp and above level, than you would also want a aftermarket intake manifold, and presumably a built motor anyway. Obviously those costs werent included here.

You know the reason I'm quoting your first post Randy because you obviously already know what your going to do so why even bother making this thread asking everybody whats there opinion on the matter? You set this thread up just to defend what you already plan on doing. You didn't make this thread with the possibility of changing your mind you made this thread to change the thoughts of who ever else enters it. Funny thing is I already know you well enough to realize you have a plan already for the most part and anything you don't have figured out you'll play by ear so I say again do whats best for Randy don't worry about the rest of us.

Personally Randy I rather see you do this then the secondary fuel rail solution. If I was doing things for just me that's the route I would go. If I was doing things to help out the entire MS3 community I'd try to figure out how to work with what we got already.

I think you guys are just impatient. Like haltech said, this is new emerging technology and is about to get way more widespread. If you hold out a little longer I'm willing to bet you will see alot more support for DI in the next few years. If you just want to be the first guy to do 500whp no matter what it takes, I think using the 2010 mazda 3 stuff is the way to go. I almost think by the time you make this happen, there will be some new DI stuff out but who knows.

i made the thread to get the opinions of the community. thats why it was a poll.
the majority say go for it
and the rest say either they'll what to see what happens or they'll wait to see prices
2 out of 44 said it was cheating.

the hell im doing this just for me man. i'm working with a company that makes big power and thats what we intend to bring. if we can make big power affordable and simple with secondary PI then...

42 out of mutherfucking 44 pollsters so far would be glad we offered it to THE COMMUNITY!!!!!
Dont tell me im doing this for myself. im doing it for myself AND hopefully to pioneer a path for all the guys that are sick of spending 20k on a fucking car and only making a pathetic 350whp.
Im doing it because 42 out of 44 guys so far, DO NOT think its cheating.

Phil. Im arguing with you, and im sure theres others like you....
But its the rest of the community who im interested in.

And if you havent posted here and you think im off my rocker.... than vote and let me know. Sure my mind seems made and im an argumentative guy most of the time. thats the whole point. i want to have the argument AGAINST it. Of course im obviously for it. Mark Riley as big a fan of DI as there was, proposed a secondary rail over a year ago. To him it was obvious. DI is great for emissions and shit, but we were going for power.

Im going to worry about staying 100% DI, about as much as im gonna worry about my catalytic converters. thats were i stand. ive made that clear long ago. this thread was to have an argument against it.

that right there made me mad.

who the hell trys to pioneer a platform and isnt impatient. who spends what i have because they were patient. this is a ncihe little car thats a complete piece of shit to mod for power with the DI fuel system and ecu we were given. im not interested in waiting 2 more years for a $2500 standalone, and another $2000 in fueling mods, with no gaurantees that ever evn works for more than a few more pointless hp.

this car is fine for guys that want 400whp on DI, and thats probably what you'll eventually get. but as far as more.... it will NEVER be attained within my interest span on this car. I believe that 100% right now. have any of you even listened to Cobb talk? ptp? dcr? Have any of you watched Whoosh, Darksun, Crazy itlian, Ms3guy22, or Laloosh? me for that matter? this platform is cooked if we stay on the present course. absoultely cooked

and dont say were being impatient. its been 2 and a half years and 20k in mods makes about 100whp. im not only impatient, im bitter about this car.

^^^ = legit

Why use a 2nd'ary rail with port injection as opposed to a 2nd'ary rail with direct injection?

I've said it many times before and I'll say it again just to cover myself...But I dont know shit about cars, much less the concept of PI/DI/FI or whatever other types of injection there is. But if it's possible in any way, and I'm assuming there is. Literally NOTHING is impossible, given you have enough time and patience to figure it out. But I'd assume adding another fuel pump/rail/injectors to operate from the open/closed loop transition to get you up to 500-700hp...

Also...I'm with the theory that the ECU will be the main problem. Isn't the DI portion of the ECU something totally different that Cobb isnt even working on?

you aught to convince cpe/ p3 to experiment with this on your car.

im so pissed/ frustrated about everything else about this car, forum shit, cpe stuff, etc, etc, etc ... that im taking it out in this thread.

palerider double post
argue
palerider double post
argue

but at least its better than venting about the other stuff. if i keep all my diarrhea in here about PI, than i'll keep my mouth shut about the other....lol

Well, how are you going to install additional injectors for DI secondary? Its not that easy, hence why traditional fuel injectors will be needed.

Correct me if I'm wrong but DCR is in this to help evolve the MS3/6 platform which doesn't just mean build Randy's car and then hand over the keys. They are going to develop parts for things that are/aren't offered. Randy wants big power and so do some others out there. Yes DI is the future but our cars are limited by the current DI setup. If Randy and DCR develop a secondary rail setup (no small feat) and that results in big power then we have a good start. DCR may/hopefully continue to develop the platform and find a solution to our current DI issues. Who cares if they start out with a secondary fuel lets make a name for the MS3 being able to make big power more like 600, 700, 800 hp. This is only the beginning guys not the end.

quoted for perfectedness and hitting the hammer dead on with a nail:)

dcr goal is to make my car "stupid fast"..... and in the process add mucho more findings into the mix. they are NOT going to be the SOLE SAVIOR of this community people. they will go broke if they try. there is no profit in pioneering DI. none. especially for this car. the brick wall we have hit can be broken down.... but it will take a while. and it will cost a fortune. and there will always be another brick wall right behind the next.

only a community sharing the burden will ever make headway on this. and so far, in the last full calendar year, since i maxed out my gt3071 at 350whp(april 4th, 2008 was my dyno).... our community collectively has accomplished..... dun, dun, dun... a grand total net improvement of....

0 whp

Secondary PI fueling will be comparatively....cheap, easy, and reliable. A solution anybody can use.

LoL...Hell if I know...Thats why I commented on covering my ass about not knowin shit about cars. =)

Its just not that easy. DI injection is just much more complicated then that.

Do it Randy. Give me a hybrid. DI for the streets and PI for the big V8 next to me at the light. My biggest concern though is cost. Did you say we might be able to do it for around 2000??? If so then I'll be second on the list right behind you.

lets just do the math.. roughly

fully bolted
turbo
built engine
... were starting with guys that have those three

i'll make worse case scenario costs.
injectors... $400
dcr intake manifold... $1200... thats a little over what his srt mani goes for now...so im guessing a really high, but conservative number. it includes a throttle body, fuel rail, etc... everything to make it work
fuel controller.... $600
all other fueling lines and pumps..... $700

thats $2900 for PI on top of all the guys who already have the bolted, turbo, and built engines. homebrew kits would be way cheaper....lol when you consider that big power isnt gonna be made with DI, without an upgraded manifold and throttle body anyway.... then the price drops to below $2000 on the hardware that would be "extra". think in terms of $1500-1800 is the added cost, not counting the mani and the throttle body.

if you do it as a kit? well DCR could probably do better of course. And with that setup... the skys the limit. absolutely no limit on power as Dee Kariginnes has already proven. With that as the basic premise we could have the car in the 7's, just like Dee, and just like the DCR racecar.... if we carried it all the way out of course. Which at this point is the plan weve discussed. I'll settle for the 9's or 10's tho..lol

There is NO WAY you could do a big power DI system cheaper. just think about that... no way. Not unless you still believe that the hard parts now, and the ems now... is enough to make it happen. And i dont think anybody believes that. If the DI part had to be upgraded your looking at 1500 dollars minimum in parts, plus a manifold, and throttle body anyway... and then a standalone to control it. standalones are gonna be $2000-3000 for a 1st generation DI capable unit. Its a waste to pursue..... even if it is possible. All that and you still might only pick up another 100-200whp tops...with DI only.

seriously....whats the point. If the point is getting fuel to the motor.... and your not a guy who jacks off to DI. Then its a no brainer.

I never gave a shit about the DI when I bought the car, Im not trying to save no goddamn whales. Fucken go for it.

i may be wrong, but won't the cosworth IM fit this car? i would buy that in a heartbeat if i were going to do port injection on this car, if it fits.

http://www.cosworth.com/uploads/1120583856450.jpg

i dont think it fits. but its probably pretty close.

Wont fit a MZR DI head. it WILL fit the Mazda3 head

bummer! nobody would make one as good as cosworth.

whats the issue with it? anybody know?

There are a few issues. The throttle body is the biggest. The throttle body on the regular 3 faces up at about a 30* angle. If you want randy i have a regular 3 intake manifold layin around. I'll send it to you to see if there are any differences. Otherwise im junkin it.

No, but I do know that some Ukrainians are running it on their MZR DISI engines with PI. Saw a thread about that ~6-8 months ago.

nah i think we'll be all right.

what do you think about this topic tho? you and sumark are 2 of the guys that id really want to hear from. i cant believe that mark wouldnt be down for this too with that setup hes about to mess with.

what are the potential problems? i know im acting like this is a piece of cake... but theres bound to be issues with it. you would know as well as any.

Look very closely at this picture.
Is Lexus "cheating" with their new 3.5l direct injection motor? Did lexus create a frankenstein?

http://www.autoblog.com/media/2006/0...(high-res).JPG

Definite hax. I'll never speak to a lexus owner again.

i think you might annoy a few japanese engineers if you told them this motor should only go into a one-off car.... then encouraged them to quit cheating and actually "pioneer" something.

whats funny is Lexus used 6 extra PI injectors, with complete secondary fuel lines, rail and pump... to essentially keep emmisions down on cold startups. thats the only place where DI isnt great for the environment. using that philosophy, then why in the world would we have a problem adding a VERY similar if not identical setup in order acheive extra hp, and overcome our ecus, on our heavily modded tuner cars.

it doesnt even make sense why this is even a question for some.

Only the high performance Lexus DI engines have the port injection too. Your standard IS250 is straight DI.

Just as a (probably unnecessary) note, I'm quite a sarcastic person. That wasn't serious. :p

I'm all for you doing this. I think it's the way to go. I like that you're still incorporating the DI, unlike the Ukis who just went PI all the way.

Randy its not a Frankenstein if the parts were made specifically for that motor. Next off using PI to add fuel on top of DI isn't cheating its just away to ignore the fact that your motor uses DI.

If DI's greatest purpose is to improve fuel economy and make more power on less fuel but that doesn't help make big power with it just get rid of it all together. To bad in the end you'd be a built motor mazda 3 not speed 3 IMO.

So let me ask the question what makes a Mazdaspeed3 a mazdaspeed 3?

#01 The Purdy interior
#02 The turbocharged DI injection motor
#03 The stitching on the seat

You forgot...
#04 "Race inspired" (but if you track your car we void your warranty) suspension

LOL