Port injection on a second rail for big power

[phailerider]

Well we are in the midst of some awful good dialogue about where the issues may lie with the "big power" on this car. Thats all good stuff and im interested in where it may lead in the discussion of 100% direct injection for big numbers. I think we all would love to see that happen.

But i want secondary port injected fueling. Im in the 100% crowd, that this is the way to go. but i want to know if thats what you want to see.

what if it costs more to stay DI?
what if the limitations are to much to overcome?
what if we end up not having a tuning solution for DI, even if we do have the hardparts? and then need a standalone to make it happen?

when is it cheating to add port injection with a secondary fuel rail, and create a hybrid fueling option for the motor?
is it ever?
what would you be willing to do and still call your car a mazdaspeed.

I want 500whp by summer. hopefully sooner. are you guys goona be cool with how we pursue it if we make our engine a hybrid? id like to know. heres a little ole poll.

[m4tic]

how about "medium power" i want 390hp without frankensteining my motor

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by bmorrisj how about "medium power" i want 390hp without frankensteining my motor

the point isnt necessarily what we want. the point of the thread is to find out what you guys would be willing to accept in the process to get there.

what if the only way you could get 390 safe was to add PI. would you consider it?

[superskaterxes]

i think as a secondary option is ok but if u want a 600WHP "MZR" you could have bought a reg 3 like jake used to have and just slapped a GT35 on it. anyone can swap the head and change the fueling control but i think DI/MPI combo would be cool.

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by superskaterxes i think as a secondary option is ok but if u want a 600WHP "MZR" you could have bought a reg 3 like jake used to have and just slapped a GT35 on it. anyone can swap the head and change the fueling control but i think DI/MPI combo would be cool.

im not talking about a head swap. i knwo thats cheating, and i just editted my opening post to make that clear.

im talking about a clamped maf and map.
a flash tune around that maybe, with a piggyback to control the secondary fuel
then a traditional 350whp with DI
..... and another 350whp with PI

a hybrid solution could take us to the moon and back. it solves fuel and the ecu all in one swoop. we could have 500whp mzrs running around this summer if we did it now.

hows everybody feel about that?
im not abondoning the idea of experimentation with more on the 100% DI options. Im just sick of waiting and want to know if everybody is gonna call me a cheater, and have no interest in following suit if we do this.

[superskaterxes]

Originally Posted by palerider im not talking about a head swap. i knwo thats cheating, and i just editted my opening post to make that clear. im talking about a clamped maf and map. a flash tune around that, with a piggyback to control the secondary fuel then a traditional 350whp with DI ..... and another 350whp with PI a hybrid solution could take us to the moon and back. we could have 500whp mzrs running around this summer if we did it now. hows everybody feel about that? im not abondoning the idea of experimentation with more on the 100% DI options. Im just sick of waiting and want to know if everybody is gonna call me a cheater, and have no interest in following suit if we do this.

i think you should do it hands down. whos to say that while experimenting with the hybrid setup you dont come up with some HUGE break through that leads to us having more info on a strictly DI solution? any forward progress is always good and with you and DCR in cahoots we are sure to succeed. do it to em randy!!!!

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by superskaterxes i think you should do it hands down. whos to say that while experimenting with the hybrid setup you dont come up with some HUGE break through that leads to us having more info on a strictly DI solution? any forward progress is always good and with you and DCR in cahoots we are sure to succeed. do it to em randy!!!!

well even tho work hasnt started yet, we obviously have been talking at length, and for now its our gut feeling that this is the way we want to approach this.

how would eveybody feel if by the summer we were offering a built dcr motor, custom intake manifold, injectors, a solution to run it, and a tune for the $5-9k range, depending on what you wanted in the motor?

would there be any takers? who would be willing to drive in one day with your current setup and drive out a couple days later with 500+whp at that cost? anyone? .

who would bitch and say we were bastardizing the platform. im being srious here. its kind of a big question considering it is the route were currently contemplating pursuing.

[superskaterxes]

is there gona be a IM option without secondary injector options on it? or atleast a way to plug them and run strictly DI?

[Laloosh]

port injection, di...no1 give a fucks. 400whp is 400whp and attainable by anything on the road. Even if u do break 400-450, its nothing special to any1 outside of this community. You wanna go big, do whatever it takes to get it there. Hell swap the srt4 engine in the for all i care lol

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by superskaterxes is there gona be a IM option without secondary options on it? or atleast a way to plug them and run strictly DI?

oh hell yes. the vast majority of guys buying dcr IMs arent gonna want to stare at plugged bungs on their IM. the design would probably be basically the same(thats up to darrell), but in order to bung it you have to build it.
you wouldnt build a IM around the holes for the injectors, and i am a fan of "pure sex" besides. plugged holes wouldnt do it for me.

[superskaterxes]

Originally Posted by palerider oh hell yes. the vast majority of guys buying dcr IMs arent gonna want to stare at plugged bungs on their IM. the design would probably be basically the same(thats up to darrell), but in order to bung it you have to build it. you wouldnt build a IM around the holes for the injectors, and i am a fan of "pure sex" besides. plugged holes wouldnt do it for me.

do u happen to know if it would be a log style or tubular?

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by Laloosh port injection, di...no1 give a fucks. 400whp is 400whp and attainable by anything on the road. Even if u do break 400-450, its nothing special to any1 outside of this community. You wanna go big, do whatever it takes to get it there. Hell swap the srt4 engine in the for all i care lol

lol... staring at all those damn srt motors coming through there, and the one on the red sled and the race car....trust me. the thoughts crossed my mind.

he sells those fuckers with warrantys. the idea of a stroked out 700whp, a warranty, and the rest of my car perfectly intact has DEFINITELY crossed my mind. it would kinda defeat the purpose of the relationship however...lol

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by superskaterxes do u happen to know if it would be a log style or tubular?

id say he'll probably experiment with both. i dont think thats something you do without testing. you end up with stuff like what steedspeed has had to deal with unfortunately. the last thing we want is something built with a personal preference, that doesnt work well with the car despite whatever you educated professional guesses might be.

[nighthawk358]

it would be cool that you could achieve greatness with DI but if it is too much of a pain in the ass, fuck it and go port injection

[phailerider]

I wonder how other car communities would view it. They havent dealt with the bodyblows that we have, and would probably be much more likely to write any acheivement like that off than we are.

The guys at the local meets would think it was cool, but theres no question that what was acheived in the VW community would have never made a blip here if it was done with port injection as the method.

that is a thought to consider when youre attempting/proclaiming to "advance" the platform.

[SSinstaller]

I'm all for whatever we need to make the power.

An IM with port injection and a controller, along with new fuel lines, a real return system, and an aeromotive pump and regulator would be perfectly fine with me...

As long as it doesn't require ditching my standback and all the accessories I've bought for it...

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by SSinstaller As long as it doesn't require ditching my standback and all the accessories I've bought for it...

yeah... no shit right? i actually think that virtually every capability that we would need is built into the thing already. id be interested in seeing exactly how it would work with greater flash tuning ability too tho.

[TenaciousBoost]

If port injection is what has to be done to make big power, I say go for it.. If everybody seems to think that is what will fix the fueling issues we're having from DI, by switching to a hybrid system.. It's too bad we can't adjust the phasing of the injectors like the VW guys, I really hope we can overcome this problem in the future, without that it seems like we still won't be able to make as much power.. But I guess we'll find out soon enough

[martyxattack]

seriously who bought this car for direct injection. you got it cause it was cheap and fast. im with loosh. as long as its fast i dont care how it does it.

[Laloosh]

why is every1 so bent out of shape about this DI injection bullshit. Like i said, no1 outside of this community give a damn. There will be no glory, no fairy tale ending if you do it with DI, all there will be is a car with thousands dumped into it that will get walked by something of equal money. The vw guys did? Once again no1 besides the VW guys and some members on here gives a shit if theres a 600whp DI car, if that car was port injection it would achieve the same "fame". Im telling you randy, if DI does limit you, ditch it. 400whp is nothing. When i was at NRG miller was working on a rsx....it had a parachute at the back of it and was 100 street trim "stock" looking. Owner banged out 833 and wants 950 this year. Some 55 year old guy who just wants an insane street car. Now who do u think is going to get more recognition and sell more more parts. A 900whp rsx or 450whp DI mazda

[Smoker6]

+1 to Laloosh. Make the power in whatever way is the most efficient.

[BlackMS3]

So...

Would we have the option to shut off the secondary rail and run a DI 300WHP for the street and daily driving with our 28MPG, then switch on the secondary rail for another 300WHP or so for those times when we would want to get serious??

If so.. I'm down!!

I would also agree that no one really cares how we get there as long as we get there. the head swap is pretty involved... an intake plumbed for additional injectors is not.

[phailerider]

So fucking true chris.

i think the guys who might bitch about it are the purists who dont mod their cars much to begin with. And at the local track if we do this.... im not gonna be sitting there explaining to the guys about why i decided to fuck up the philosophy of my DI car in order to be faster than them.

Most of the guys i talk to when it comes to this motor, when i explain how it operates answer like..

that sucks, or
huh, or
they just get bored listening.

I love my car becuase its different, and difficult, and the "wave of the future", and all that snazz. But its also why i'll enjoy it even more if ever becomes a rocket. and with that setup i think it just gets better, not worse.

[Darksun280]

Big picture wise I think it defeats the purpose of owning this car with this motor in it using a PI secondary rail.

If your gonna do it for your self do the PI thing its your car and your money. If what your looking for is a product you can sell to the masses I don't think a new manifold and PI will appeal to enough of the people. ATP made a stock flanged DBB turbo for christ sakes you see they knew the type of market they would have to appeal to. Same reason only one company has attempted to come out with a standardized flanged exhaust manifold. Your car will be similar to Dee's car where everyone will know its doable and still not be quick to do it. Dee's car runs what 7's I don't believe believe he ever asked the community if It was alright for him to Frankenstein this motor and I don't see kits from him for us to do it either.

If you want to help the community help find a direct solution for the DI road block not think of a way to ignore it exists. If you want to make power do it by any means possible. I get the feeling your anxious to get back moving on your quest for power again and want to make some money on the journey there but I don't think you can worry about whats best for the platform and yourself at the same time.

[phailerider]

Phil... you think a IM with secondary fuel rail is frankensteining the motor? its not that far beyond a meth kit for crying out loud. you could even do it with a single 5th injector if you wanted to.

plus i seriously think you are underestimating the cost of upgrading the stock fuel system. upgrading a DI system is a hell of alot more expense than the piddly shit youd have to do for what im proposing.

i think the masses would follow my way, long before they would wait and wonder and maybe evntually pay... for the DI solution that would still be much more limited even if it was solved.

[BlackMS3]

Originally Posted by BlackMS3 So... Would we have the option to shut off the secondary rail and run a DI 300WHP for the street and daily driving with our 28MPG, then switch on the secondary rail for another 300WHP or so for those times when we would want to get serious?? If so.. I'm down!! I would also agree that no one really cares how we get there as long as we get there. the head swap is pretty involved... an intake plumbed for additional injectors is not.

Any thoughts???

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by BlackMS3 Any thoughts???

oh yeah... i thought you were just saying you could do it.
of course you could do it. its exactly how they would have to be run. all tho ive never discussed thsat exact aspect of it before.

lets say if you were using the standback.... it would just be the diffeence between unclamping the maf and turning off the injectors and youd be back to 100% DI. if you had ap tunes to facilitate it you could just flash back to a "stock" map. somebody else could chime in but it seems like a joke it would be so easy.

oh yeah... youd also want to probably turn down the boost too...lol

[Laloosh]

Every1 knows i moved on the 135, the 135 is DI as well, but when we put down 400 plus with basic bolt ons, no1 mentions its DI, no1 cares. What peopel care about is dynos/track times. DI wave of the future bullshit, thats just something we're brainwashed into. There is NOTHING better about DI when it comes to making power. So big deal we can run higher compression and run a lil leaner, who cares, the power in the end is limited and not there

[SSinstaller]

Originally Posted by palerider oh yeah... i thought you were just saying you could do it. of course you could do it. its exactly how they would have to be run. all tho ive never discussed thsat exact aspect of it before. lets say if you were using the standback.... it would just be the diffeence between unclamping the maf and turning off the injectors and youd be back to 100% DI. somebody else could chime in but it would be a joke it would be so easy. oh yeah... youd also want to probably turn down the boost too...lol

don't see a reason to even complicate the system like that.

Your running the additional injectors on a map based off the MAF/RPM, if your running low boost makiung only 300 hp, they'd be off anyways.

[Darksun280]

Originally Posted by palerider Phil... you think a IM with secondary fuel rail is frankensteining the motor? its not that far beyond a meth kit for crying out loud. you could even do it with a single 5th injector if you wanted to. plus i seriously think you are underestimating the cost of upgrading the stock fuel system. upgrading a DI system is a hell of alot more expense than the piddly shit youd have to do for what im proposing. i think the masses would follow my way, long before they would wait and wonder and maybe evntually pay... for the DI solution that would still be much more limited even if it was solved.

Correction randy I think the secondary rail just ignores the fact the car is DI and stresses even more everyone wishes the motor was easy to deal with like FI.

Changing the entire fuel system can't be so bad if APR is doing it BUT they seem to have control of there cars ECU logic to utilize it. Some one needs to sit down with those guys and pick there brains or hand them over a stock Ms3 and some cash and say "figure this shit out too". This ain't my fight anymore since I've obviously waved the white flag early myself but I think the quest for power needs to stop and trying just to understand the car we have needs to start. We're looking for power mean while we are basically still driving around a big question mark with 4 wheels.

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by SSinstaller don't see a reason to even complicate the system like that. Your running the additional injectors on a map based off the MAF/RPM, if your running low boost makiung only 300 hp, they'd be off anyways.

would we run it off of maf? i prefer the idea of just eliminating the goddam maf from the equation at that power level. plus with my way it would be clamped.

explain your philosophy on this a little more.

[SSinstaller]

Originally Posted by Darksun280 Correction randy I think the secondary rail just ignores the fact the car is DI and stresses even more everyone wishes motor was easy to deal with like FI. changing the entire fuel system can't be so bad if APR is doing it BUT they seem to have control of there cars ECU logic to utilize it. Some one needs to sit down with those guys and pick there brains or hand them over a stock Ms3 and some cash and say "figure this shit out too". This ain't my fight anymore since I've obviously waved the white flag early myself but I think the quest for power needs to stop and trying just to understand the car we have needs to start. We're looking for power mean while we are basically still driving around a big question mark with 4 wheels.

At this point I say screw it. Port injection will work. If someone eventually figurs out how to do it with just the DI great, but I'm not going to wait around for someone to re-invent the wheel...

[Darksun280]

Originally Posted by palerider would we run it off of maf? i prefer the idea of just eliminating the goddam maf from the equation at the power level.

Getting rid of the maf is a smart move.

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by Darksun280 Correction randy I think the secondary rail just ignores the fact the car is DI and stresses even more everyone wishes motor was easy to deal with like FI. Changing the entire fuel system can't be so bad if APR is doing it BUT they seem to have control of there cars ECU logic to utilize it. Some one needs to sit down with those guys and pick there brains or hand them over a stock Ms3 and some cash and say "figure this shit out too". This ain't my fight anymore since I've obviously waved the white flag early myself but I think the quest for power needs to stop and trying just to understand the car we have needs to start. We're looking for power mean while we are basically still driving around a big question mark with 4 wheels.

i think this sounds like you have been staring at a flooded river trying to figure out how to swim across it when there is a bridge right next to you. The point is to get to the other side. pure and simple.
And in the near future, the guys who dont cross the bridge are gonna be still staring at the river while the guys that crossed the bridge are gonna be long gone.

[SSinstaller]

Originally Posted by palerider would we run it off of maf? i prefer the idea of just eliminating the goddam maf from the equation at that power level. plus with my way it would be clamped. explain your philosophy on this a little more.

I think switching to speed density will be a HUGE headache if your going to try and keep the stock ECM.

The OEM MAF will work just fine in the 3.25" housing, and if/when we start pegging it there is no real need to keep the OEM MAP other than the IAT sensor. What's to stop us from just leaving it laying next to intake under the hood with only the IAT actually connected. Then just swap in a 4" MAF and have CP-E make another calibration flash. We are already doing the same thing when we add the AEM 3.5 bar MAP while leaving the OEM BAT connected.. I don't think anyone will peg a 4" MAF for a LONG time..

If the ECM can uderstand the actual airflow it can better calculate the load and adjust timing and cam phasing properly.. Clamping the MAF is like blindfolding the driver and giving directions from the passenger seat..

[Darksun280]

Originally Posted by palerider i think this sounds like you have been staring at a flooded river trying to figure out how to swim across it when there is a bridge right next to you. The point is to get to the other side. pure and simple. And in the near future, the guys who dont cross the bridge are gonna be still staring at the river while the guys that crossed the bridge are gonna be long gone.

Yeah. But funny thing is Nitrous fixes all the issues we have and is available. To make a bolt on kit would be simple enough and im damn sure you'll hit any number you want. But no ones really going to look into it cause many people frown apon a second power adder just like how they'll frown apon a secondary fuel rail.

[SSinstaller]

Originally Posted by Darksun280 Yeah. But funny thing is Nitrous fixes all the issues we have and is available. To make a bolt on kit would be simple enough and im damn sure you'll hit any number you want. But no ones really going to look into it cause many people frown apon a second power adder just like how they'll frown apon a secondary fuel rail.

IMO people frown on nitrous because when your bottle is empty or the valve is closed your cars slow again...

Most people that looked under our hood and saw the port inection rail would think it was the only one, and wouldn't know otherwise unless we told them...

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by Darksun280 Yeah. But funny thing is Nitrous fixes all the issues we have and is available. To make a bolt on kit would be simple enough and im damn sure you'll hit any number you want. But no ones really going to look into it cause many people frown apon a second power adder just like how they'll frown apon a secondary fuel rail.

youre trying to compare nitrous and gasoline as power adders? come on now.

this is about how we deliver gasoline into our motor and overcome the ecus limitations with controlling delivery. would a secondary cam driven pump be acceptable if it solved the problem? of course it would. than why not secondary PI as the gasoline source.

no buttons, no nos.... just boost and fuel. with massive daily driveable power on demand with the pedal, and refillable at bp or exxon.

i guess the purpose of the thread was to encourage debate and seee what guys thought. i just didnt think youd be on that side of the fence. its cool.... im just surprised.

[phantom3]

Sorry if this has been covered (flame suit on) but why can't we go the usual route for fueling issues?

If the injector can't get enough fuel in no matter how long its open why can't we use a larger cc injector? (ie: 300cc to 500cc).

If they don't exist why can't we get them made?

Personally I think it's about being different from other cars and solving problems that we come across. Not just "using what works". I think the direct injection is cool. Not that many people know about DI and are intrigued when I talk about it.

It feels like people are taking the easy way out and it sucks. If everyone did that we would have no advancements. I'd like to be able to look back on this issue and say "The fueling issue was solved by Randy and DCR because he took the initiative".

[SSinstaller]

Originally Posted by phantom3 Sorry if this has been covered (flame suit on) but why can't we go the usual route for fueling issues? If the injector can't get enough fuel in no matter how long its open why can't we use a larger cc injector? (ie: 300cc to 500cc). If they don't exist why can't we get them made? Personally I think it's about being different from other cars and solving problems that we come across. Not just "using what works". I think the direct injection is cool. Not that many people know about DI and are intrigued when I talk about it. It feels like people are taking the easy way out and it sucks. If everyone did that we would have no advancements. I'd like to be able to look back on this issue and say "The fueling issue was solved by Randy and DCR because he took the initiative".

I wasn't involved when whoosh sourced the ported injectors that I bought from him, but IIRC the shop that did the work said that 20% larger was as big a they could go. We do not have any off the shelf upgrades available(like the VW guys do), nor do we have the market to get something made. The tooling costs on custom injectors would probably be higher than the total sales could ever reach..

When your dealing with fueling that's no longer designed as individual components, but engineered from the ground up as a complete system, it becomes VERY hard to increase capacity without modifying virtually every part of that system.. We aren't talking about taking the easy way out, as there is NO easy way.