Port injection on a second rail for big power

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by phantom3 Personally I think it's about being different from other cars and solving problems that we come across. Not just "using what works". I think the direct injection is cool. Not that many people know about DI and are intrigued when I talk about it. It feels like people are taking the easy way out and it sucks. If everyone did that we would have no advancements. I'd like to be able to look back on this issue and say "The fueling issue was solved by Randy and DCR because he took the initiative".

Look i hear you... but DCR is not gonna look at DI and think its "cool" for big power. Why? Because its not.

And second of all.... as much as i want a 100% DI mazdaspeed making 500-600whp. Im not going to encourage DCR to spend months/years trying to unlock this car with their money and mine just to say we did it..... with no gaurantees we can. If it happens it happens. Were either gonna be able to do it with SSinstallers setup and ecu control... or it isnt gonna happen. there wont be anything to investigate other than an entire new DI fuel system, and a full standalone. and there isnt gonna be ANYBODY who is gonna spring for the cost of that only to be locked back in to another fucking cement wall 100whp later either.

Sorry for that... lol it wasnt meant to be a flamefest, but ive been gnawing on this for awhile now.

[phantom3]

Originally Posted by palerider Look i hear you... but DCR is not gonna look at DI and think its "cool" for big power. Why? Because its not. And second of all.... as much as i want a 100% DI mazdaspeed making 500-600whp. Im not going to encourage DCR to spend months/years trying to unlock this car with their money and mine just to say we did it..... with no gaurantees we can. If it happens it happens. Were either gonna be able to do it with SSinstallers setup and ecu control... or it isnt gonna happen. there wont be anything to investigate other than an entire new DI fuel system, and a full standalone. and there isnt gonna be ANYBODY who is gonna spring for the cost of that only to be locked back in to another fucking cement wall 100whp later either. Sorry for that... lol it wasnt meant to be a flamefest, but ive been gnawing on this for awhile now.

No problem... Just trying to understand where we are. What is SSinstaler setup? I haven't heard of it yet.

[SSinstaller]

Originally Posted by phantom3 No problem... Just trying to understand where we are. What is SSinstaler setup? I haven't heard of it yet.

Kenny belle boost-a-pump on the intank pump, Mrlilguy upgraded HPFP, PTP modified dump valve, ported HP rail feed line, ported fuel rail, OEM injectors ported to 20% higher flow.

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by SSinstaller Kenny belle boost-a-pump on the intank pump, Mrlilguy upgraded HPFP, PTP modified dump valve, ported HP rail feed line, ported fuel rail, OEM injectors ported to 20% higher flow.

if the tuning solutions availble now, either on there own, or in tandem...cant control all that and make some sort of a breakthrough past a measly 400hp, then....

were fucked as far as im concerned.

[phantom3]

Originally Posted by SSinstaller Kenny belle boost-a-pump on the intank pump, Mrlilguy upgraded HPFP, PTP modified dump valve, ported HP rail feed line, ported fuel rail, OEM injectors ported to 20% higher flow.

What is this setup limiting you to fuel wise? or has it not been fully tested yet?

[SSinstaller]

Originally Posted by phantom3 What is this setup limiting you to fuel wise? or has it not been fully tested yet?

I have no idea, only the boost-a-pump was installed before the OEM motor came out last October. We'll see what happens after the new MOTOR/TURBO/IC/MAF/EVERYTHING is in and running...whenever that may be...lol

[LBV]

I've got no preference for keeping this DI by any means ... if it takes PI to get to the other side, I say go for it.

BTW, as an fyi Cobb has released speed density tuning for the Subies back in February.

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by SSinstaller I have no idea, only the boost-a-pump was installed before the OEM motor came out last October. We'll see what happens after the new MOTOR/TURBO/IC/MAF/EVERYTHING is in and running...whenever that may be...lol

i sure hope you'll consider getting that thing up to darrell for a week when its running. if it shows promise that might be our best bet to still investigate a full DI solution for those that prefer that route.
Luckily we'll have that to learn from before my prefered route comes to fruition whether you make it up here or not.

[Haltech]

Its not even over yet guys, its just beginning...

Ford's about to take and release full scale direct injection in their cars... Which means, more and more people are going to attack this and figure it out if we cant do it within our own niche. Until then, secondary injectors is worth a shot.

[killa cam]

this thread is interesting, because i'm exploring the possibilities of putting a big 4bbl holley carb on the car. this way i take two steps backwards, and i don't need to add any additional electrical things in order to make it work. what you got on that shit?

DI and FI are the future (fuck, it's already here). i think the better way to go about the 'problem' is dealing with it head on instead of beating around it and avoiding it. hopefully soon it will be hard to find a port injected car, just like you don't see carbs on cars anymore. they are inferior to DI, DUH!

[killa cam]

Originally Posted by Haltech Its not even over yet guys, its just beginning... Ford's about to take and release full scale direct injection in their cars... Which means, more and more people are going to attack this and figure it out if we cant do it within our own niche. Until then, secondary injectors is worth a shot.

twin turbo V6 mustang ftw... i'm excited for a ford actually...

[Lex]

Do it. If for nothing else than to experiment with a different solution. Everyone will learn something.

[killa cam]

Originally Posted by Lex Everyone will learn something.

like what? port injection makes power?

[demonspeed]

Originally Posted by killa cam like what? port injection makes power?

Im with theses guys. Instead of fixing the problem at hand, youre avoiding it.

What about a dual fuel system using DI? Two OEM DI injectors firing into each cylinder?

[Darksun280]

Originally Posted by palerider youre trying to compare nitrous and gasoline as power adders? come on now. this is about how we deliver gasoline into our motor and overcome the ecus limitations with controlling delivery. would a secondary cam driven pump be acceptable if it solved the problem? of course it would. than why not secondary PI as the gasoline source. no buttons, no nos.... just boost and fuel. with massive daily driveable power on demand with the pedal, and refillable at bp or exxon. i guess the purpose of the thread was to encourage debate and seee what guys thought. i just didnt think youd be on that side of the fence. its cool.... im just surprised.

Im saying it will be frowned apon cause its embarrassing to need two different power adders or two different fueling solutions to get over what 350whp?

Like I said Randy if its for your personal car then do what ever you need to do. Dee chose to Frankenstein the motor and you want to add a secondary FI rail. The ends justify the means. BUT if you want to do whats best for the community as a whole figuring out how to get over the DI hurdle is best IMO.

Any way adding a secondary fuel rail doesn't change the fact that the motor is still DI and STILL has the same DI window. Having low pressure injectors in a different rail trying to add fuel quick enough when the motor wants it during the intake stroke doesn't seem like it has much chance of working to me. Reason why nitrous worked well for me and straight meth would work as well is cause it was mixing in with the air so it was still playing by the Rules of DI. It was there waiting for fuel and spark already not trying to add itself in at the right time. I have a feeling integrating a low pressure injection system is going to end up being a pain in the ass. When you ignore the actual problems or issues they usually end up coming back later on to haunt you again.

Everyone knows I'd do what ever it takes to make power I could give two shits about whats kosher and whats not but doing what's best for an individual and whats best for a whole community are two totally different things. Hence why Dee's car is running 7's and there is no other copy of that setup.

[phailerider]

a conversion to Dees car could be done for less than an upgraded turbo kit. it hasnt been done because nobodys offered it to the community. thats the ONLY reason.

and if the 2010 mazda3 uses the same damn head as we do then all this "omfg DI design is so hard" bullshit flys out the window. they plug the damn holes phil. its friggin ghetto. mazda didnt think it was that big a deal. hell we could probably make 500whp just using mazda oem parts, if we used a 2010 intake manifold and mazdas injectors that come with the thing!!! we all just want to make this omg soooo haaard. fuel comes in with the intake stroke...boom....out the exhaust. simple.

p and p the head like crazy, just like any car
forged internals
BT
DI plus PI
and done.

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by demonspeed Im with theses guys. Instead of fixing the problem at hand, youre avoiding it. What about a dual fuel system using DI? Two OEM DI injectors firing into each cylinder?

sweet, for just $9,999, two years from now we could offer... a complete custom topend/ head, a second fuel rail, and second upgraded cdfp, all new custom ported hardlines, dual boost a pumps, more custom ported inline pumps, more custom one off injectors, and $3k fullblown standalone that hasnt been developed yet to control it... but at least your not avoiding the problem.
You guys would eat this up right?

[whoosh@Realtune]

Originally Posted by palerider sweet, for just $9,999, two years from now we could offer... a complete custom topend/ head, a second fuel rail, and second cdfp, all new hardlines, more inline pumps, more custom one off injectors, and $3k fullblown standalone that hasnt been developed yet to control it... but at least your not avoiding the problem. You guys would eat this up right?

I'm with you and Phil on this one
adding a fuel rail in addition to the DI set up may not accomplish what everyone automatically thinks it will
Power is the objective, what's the difference between adding a turbo system to a regular mazda 3 or changing the fuel delivery on the MS3?
none IMO

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by whoosh I'm with you and Phil on this one adding a fuel rail in addition to the DI set up may not accomplish what everyone automatically thinks it will Power is the objective, what's the difference between adding a turbo system to a regular mazda 3 or changing the fuel delivery on the MS3? none IMO

phil? he's against this. did you mean loosh and everyone else..lol?

[ATE BALLER]

Didn't I say I was planning this exact same idea in PTP's thread?

It's not cheating. It will work. It shouldn't be terribly expensive. It would be cake to tune it with ATR or ECUEdit + a simple fuel controller. If you get DCR to make a 'kit', people would gobble it up (even the ones in here that are against it). Once they see everyone else putting down #s in the 5s and 6s, they'll be stoked. I gauran-fucking-tee it. Really, I was going to do it to a stock(ish) IM and use a cheap aftermarket rail at first. It's not going to take a shit-ton of fuel to get it working. Start small with small injectors and a small rail and just get the tune on the ECU and the secondary fuel controller figured out, then work your way up from there. You'll want the ECU to put itself into a constant state at some certain point as the secondary kicks in. Speed density would be ideal because you would only need the secondary to account for the additional air.

Go do work son!

[phantom6294]

Here's my $0.02 for what it's worth... which may not even be $0.02...

I would personally like to see how far we can take the DI on the MZR DISI engine. I'll admit it... I think adding a PI rail is a bit like cheating. Of course, since I'm not contributing to cracking the DI power wall, whether it be intellectual or financial contributions, hard for me to sit on the sidelines and whine about how the game is being played. I'll be honest and say that personally, I'll be a little more excited about, say, hitting 500WHP solely using DI (assuming we ever do) then hitting 500WHP using DI+PI. Yet, I am NOT going to be that guy talking about how DI+PI doesn't count and bullshit like that. I'll give the guys who step up and put up all the respect they deserve.

[Grim]

I say who gives a fuck how we get fuel to the motor.As long as we can get adequate fuel for the power we want,then lets use whatever fuel solution we need.Yes i know DI is the future,but right now its not ready for high hp.So for now we are just going to have to do a hybrid setup.

[m4tic]

so is this platform itself a lost cause the way it stands? whoosh, teach me about bolt-ons and no tune

[Darksun280]

Originally Posted by palerider phil? he's against this. did you mean loosh and everyone else..lol?

Thats the thing I'm not against it. If its for your personal car, but to say your doing it for the good of community is false IMO because I don't think it helps the development of this cars DI motor. Even if your Idea did work a year from now we'd all still be no closer to understanding DI any better we'd just have a blue print on how to ignore it.

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by Darksun280 Thats the thing I'm not against it. If its for your personal car, but to say your doing it for the good of community is false IMO because I don't think it helps the development of this cars DI motor. Even if your Idea did work a year from now we'd all still be no closer to understanding DI any better we'd just have a blue print on how to ignore it.

im trying to pioneer power on the ms3 phil. im not trying to pioneer DI. i could give a fuck about being the guy who pioneers di.

this isnt about direct injection.... this is about the mazdaspeed. some cars are limited by DI, some seem not to be so much. Even if i spend a fortune in time, money and resources so i can fulfill your ridiculous definition of pioneer..... then i have accomplished nothing i could nt have done much more safely, effectively, and less expensively with additional PI.

I THINK..... the future of cheap four banger DI turbos is gonna be exactly what im doing. why not? Not this other hardheadedness that your saying is "the pioneer" way. We KNOW what the issue is and it isnt easily overcomeable on this car for big power. Knowing that now.... it needs to be scraped.
And if we "put it all together"... and someday make 400-450whp with DI alone, then i'll still be glad i didnt waste my time. Cause the car will still be slow, ferociously expensive to mod, and most important... completely irrelevent.

i have no intention of pioneering irrelevence. I want to show the way for hundreds of affordable, 400--800whp ms3-6s in a couple years time. Thats what im hoping to be the pioneer of.

[Lex]

Originally Posted by killa cam like what? port injection makes power?

How to adapt a different fueling solution to this car.

[Lex]

You guys are arguing over nothing. If one guy wants to make power by swapping in a v8, or using DI, or converting to port - it doesn't matter. The more solutions that are developed the better off we are.

DI is the future of spark ignited engines until electric cars take over. I wouldn't swap out my fuel system to make 500whp. But if Randy wants to, all power to him. The development and learning process of how to make it work is worth it in my opinion even if it's not a route I would take.

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by Lex You guys are arguing over nothing. If one guy wants to make power by swapping in a v8, or using DI, or converting to port - it doesn't matter. The more solutions that are developed the better off we are. DI is the future of spark ignited engines until electric cars take over. I wouldn't swap out my fuel system to make 500whp. But if Randy wants to, all power to him. The development and learning process of how to make it work is worth it in my opinion even if it's not a route I would take.

you do understand im only considering "secondary port injection". The car will still fuel itself 95% of the time with 100% DI. And when higher levels of boost kick in, only then would the port injectors turn on.
Personally....Im not talking about swapping heads. Im not talking about eliminating DI completely.

For the record.... regarding COST

----i have been informed that a COMPLETE port injection conversion, with no DI involved, could be accomplished for around $2000. This would be the Dee Kariginnes way. Stock bottom end, mazda3 head conversion to fit. If you wanted to, you wouldnt even have to do that. You could just do it the way the 2010s do.

---- i would think that a conversion to DI/PI hybrid fueling would be about half that, once the trail has been forged and if it was offered as a kit.

If your goals for the car were in the 400whp and above level, than you would also want a aftermarket intake manifold, and presumably a built motor anyway. Obviously those costs werent included here.

[Darksun280]

Originally Posted by palerider Well we are in the midst of some awful good dialogue about where the issues may lie with the "big power" on this car. Thats all good stuff and im interested in where it may lead in the discussion of 100% direct injection for big numbers. I think we all would love to see that happen. But i want secondary port injected fueling. Im in the 100% crowd, that this is the way to go. but i want to know if thats what you want to see. what if it costs more to stay DI? what if the limitations are to much to overcome? what if we end up not having a tuning solution for DI, even if we do have the hardparts? and then need a standalone to make it happen? when is it cheating to add port injection with a secondary fuel rail, and create a hybrid fueling option for the motor? is it ever? what would you be willing to do and still call your car a mazdaspeed. I want 500whp by summer. hopefully sooner. are you guys goona be cool with how we pursue it if we make our engine a hybrid? id like to know. heres a little ole poll.

You know the reason I'm quoting your first post Randy because you obviously already know what your going to do so why even bother making this thread asking everybody whats there opinion on the matter? You set this thread up just to defend what you already plan on doing. You didn't make this thread with the possibility of changing your mind you made this thread to change the thoughts of who ever else enters it. Funny thing is I already know you well enough to realize you have a plan already for the most part and anything you don't have figured out you'll play by ear so I say again do whats best for Randy don't worry about the rest of us.

Originally Posted by palerider you do understand im only considering "secondary port injection". The car will still fuel itself 95% of the time with 100% DI. And when higher levels of boost kick in, only then would the port injectors turn on. Personally....Im not talking about swapping heads. Im not talking about eliminating DI completely. For the record.... regarding COST ----i have been informed that a COMPLETE port injection conversion, with no DI involved, could be accomplished for around $2000. This would be the Dee Kariginnes way. Stock bottom end, mazda3 head conversion to fit. If you wanted to, you wouldnt even have to do that. You could just do it the way the 2010s do. ---- i would think that a conversion to DI/PI hybrid fueling would be about half that, once the trail has been forged and if it was offered as a kit. If your goals for the car were in the 400whp and above level, than you would also want a aftermarket intake manifold, and presumably a built motor anyway. Obviously those costs werent included here.

Personally Randy I rather see you do this then the secondary fuel rail solution. If I was doing things for just me that's the route I would go. If I was doing things to help out the entire MS3 community I'd try to figure out how to work with what we got already.

[smakdown61]

I think you guys are just impatient. Like haltech said, this is new emerging technology and is about to get way more widespread. If you hold out a little longer I'm willing to bet you will see alot more support for DI in the next few years. If you just want to be the first guy to do 500whp no matter what it takes, I think using the 2010 mazda 3 stuff is the way to go. I almost think by the time you make this happen, there will be some new DI stuff out but who knows.

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by Darksun280 You know the reason I'm quoting your first post Randy because you obviously already know what your going to do so why even bother making this thread asking everybody whats there opinion on the matter? You set this thread up just to defend what you already plan on doing. You didn't make this thread with the possibility of changing your mind you made this thread to change the thoughts of who ever else enters it. Funny thing is I already know you well enough to realize you have a plan already for the most part and anything you don't have figured out you'll play by ear so I say again do whats best for Randy don't worry about the rest of us. Personally Randy I rather see you do this then the secondary fuel rail solution. If I was doing things for just me that's the route I would go. If I was doing things to help out the entire MS3 community I'd try to figure out how to work with what we got already.

i made the thread to get the opinions of the community. thats why it was a poll.
the majority say go for it
and the rest say either they'll what to see what happens or they'll wait to see prices
2 out of 44 said it was cheating.

the hell im doing this just for me man. i'm working with a company that makes big power and thats what we intend to bring. if we can make big power affordable and simple with secondary PI then...

42 out of mutherfucking 44 pollsters so far would be glad we offered it to THE COMMUNITY!!!!!
Dont tell me im doing this for myself. im doing it for myself AND hopefully to pioneer a path for all the guys that are sick of spending 20k on a fucking car and only making a pathetic 350whp.
Im doing it because 42 out of 44 guys so far, DO NOT think its cheating.

Phil. Im arguing with you, and im sure theres others like you....
But its the rest of the community who im interested in.

And if you havent posted here and you think im off my rocker.... than vote and let me know. Sure my mind seems made and im an argumentative guy most of the time. thats the whole point. i want to have the argument AGAINST it. Of course im obviously for it. Mark Riley as big a fan of DI as there was, proposed a secondary rail over a year ago. To him it was obvious. DI is great for emissions and shit, but we were going for power.

Im going to worry about staying 100% DI, about as much as im gonna worry about my catalytic converters. thats were i stand. ive made that clear long ago. this thread was to have an argument against it.

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by smakdown61 I think you guys are just impatient. Like haltech said, this is new emerging technology and is about to get way more widespread. If you hold out a little longer I'm willing to bet you will see alot more support for DI in the next few years. If you just want to be the first guy to do 500whp no matter what it takes, I think using the 2010 mazda 3 stuff is the way to go. I almost think by the time you make this happen, there will be some new DI stuff out but who knows.

that right there made me mad.

who the hell trys to pioneer a platform and isnt impatient. who spends what i have because they were patient. this is a ncihe little car thats a complete piece of shit to mod for power with the DI fuel system and ecu we were given. im not interested in waiting 2 more years for a $2500 standalone, and another $2000 in fueling mods, with no gaurantees that ever evn works for more than a few more pointless hp.

this car is fine for guys that want 400whp on DI, and thats probably what you'll eventually get. but as far as more.... it will NEVER be attained within my interest span on this car. I believe that 100% right now. have any of you even listened to Cobb talk? ptp? dcr? Have any of you watched Whoosh, Darksun, Crazy itlian, Ms3guy22, or Laloosh? me for that matter? this platform is cooked if we stay on the present course. absoultely cooked

and dont say were being impatient. its been 2 and a half years and 20k in mods makes about 100whp. im not only impatient, im bitter about this car.

[crazyitalian041]

^^^ = legit

[757Speed]

Why use a 2nd'ary rail with port injection as opposed to a 2nd'ary rail with direct injection?

I've said it many times before and I'll say it again just to cover myself...But I dont know shit about cars, much less the concept of PI/DI/FI or whatever other types of injection there is. But if it's possible in any way, and I'm assuming there is. Literally NOTHING is impossible, given you have enough time and patience to figure it out. But I'd assume adding another fuel pump/rail/injectors to operate from the open/closed loop transition to get you up to 500-700hp...

Also...I'm with the theory that the ECU will be the main problem. Isn't the DI portion of the ECU something totally different that Cobb isnt even working on?

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by crazyitalian041 ^^^ = legit

you aught to convince cpe/ p3 to experiment with this on your car.

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by Lex You guys are arguing over nothing.

im so pissed/ frustrated about everything else about this car, forum shit, cpe stuff, etc, etc, etc ... that im taking it out in this thread.

palerider double post
argue
palerider double post
argue

but at least its better than venting about the other stuff. if i keep all my diarrhea in here about PI, than i'll keep my mouth shut about the other....lol

[Haltech]

Originally Posted by 757Speed Why use a 2nd'ary rail with port injection as opposed to a 2nd'ary rail with direct injection? I've said it many times before and I'll say it again just to cover myself...But I dont know shit about cars, much less the concept of PI/DI/FI or whatever other types of injection there is. But if it's possible in any way, and I'm assuming there is. Literally NOTHING is impossible, given you have enough time and patience to figure it out. But I'd assume adding another fuel pump/rail/injectors to operate from the open/closed loop transition to get you up to 500-700hp... Also...I'm with the theory that the ECU will be the main problem. Isn't the DI portion of the ECU something totally different that Cobb isnt even working on?

Well, how are you going to install additional injectors for DI secondary? Its not that easy, hence why traditional fuel injectors will be needed.

[MS6_Auburn_Fan]

Correct me if I'm wrong but DCR is in this to help evolve the MS3/6 platform which doesn't just mean build Randy's car and then hand over the keys. They are going to develop parts for things that are/aren't offered. Randy wants big power and so do some others out there. Yes DI is the future but our cars are limited by the current DI setup. If Randy and DCR develop a secondary rail setup (no small feat) and that results in big power then we have a good start. DCR may/hopefully continue to develop the platform and find a solution to our current DI issues. Who cares if they start out with a secondary fuel lets make a name for the MS3 being able to make big power more like 600, 700, 800 hp. This is only the beginning guys not the end.

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by MS6_Auburn_Fan Correct me if I'm wrong but DCR is in this to help evolve the MS3/6 platform which doesn't just mean build Randy's car and then hand over the keys. They are going to develop parts for things that are/aren't offered. Randy wants big power and so do some others out there. Yes DI is the future but our cars are limited by the current DI setup. If Randy and DCR develop a secondary rail setup (no small feat) and that results in big power then we have a good start. DCR may/hopefully continue to develop the platform and find a solution to our current DI issues. Who cares if they start out with a secondary fuel lets make a name for the MS3 being able to make big power more like 600, 700, 800 hp. This is only the beginning guys not the end.

quoted for perfectedness and hitting the hammer dead on with a nail

dcr goal is to make my car "stupid fast"..... and in the process add mucho more findings into the mix. they are NOT going to be the SOLE SAVIOR of this community people. they will go broke if they try. there is no profit in pioneering DI. none. especially for this car. the brick wall we have hit can be broken down.... but it will take a while. and it will cost a fortune. and there will always be another brick wall right behind the next.

only a community sharing the burden will ever make headway on this. and so far, in the last full calendar year, since i maxed out my gt3071 at 350whp(april 4th, 2008 was my dyno).... our community collectively has accomplished..... dun, dun, dun... a grand total net improvement of....

0 whp

Secondary PI fueling will be comparatively....cheap, easy, and reliable. A solution anybody can use.

[757Speed]

Originally Posted by Haltech Well, how are you going to install additional injectors for DI secondary? Its not that easy, hence why traditional fuel injectors will be needed.

LoL...Hell if I know...Thats why I commented on covering my ass about not knowin shit about cars. =)