Port injection on a second rail for big power

[Haltech]

Originally Posted by 757Speed LoL...Hell if I know...Thats why I commented on covering my ass about not knowin shit about cars. =)

Its just not that easy. DI injection is just much more complicated then that.

[spnkr21]

Do it Randy. Give me a hybrid. DI for the streets and PI for the big V8 next to me at the light. My biggest concern though is cost. Did you say we might be able to do it for around 2000??? If so then I'll be second on the list right behind you.

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by spnkr21 Do it Randy. Give me a hybrid. DI for the streets and PI for the big V8 next to me at the light. My biggest concern though is cost. Did you say we might be able to do it for around 2000??? If so then I'll be second on the list right behind you.

lets just do the math.. roughly

fully bolted
turbo
built engine
... were starting with guys that have those three

i'll make worse case scenario costs.
injectors... $400
dcr intake manifold... $1200... thats a little over what his srt mani goes for now...so im guessing a really high, but conservative number. it includes a throttle body, fuel rail, etc... everything to make it work
fuel controller.... $600
all other fueling lines and pumps..... $700

thats $2900 for PI on top of all the guys who already have the bolted, turbo, and built engines. homebrew kits would be way cheaper....lol when you consider that big power isnt gonna be made with DI, without an upgraded manifold and throttle body anyway.... then the price drops to below $2000 on the hardware that would be "extra". think in terms of $1500-1800 is the added cost, not counting the mani and the throttle body.

if you do it as a kit? well DCR could probably do better of course. And with that setup... the skys the limit. absolutely no limit on power as Dee Kariginnes has already proven. With that as the basic premise we could have the car in the 7's, just like Dee, and just like the DCR racecar.... if we carried it all the way out of course. Which at this point is the plan weve discussed. I'll settle for the 9's or 10's tho..lol

There is NO WAY you could do a big power DI system cheaper. just think about that... no way. Not unless you still believe that the hard parts now, and the ems now... is enough to make it happen. And i dont think anybody believes that. If the DI part had to be upgraded your looking at 1500 dollars minimum in parts, plus a manifold, and throttle body anyway... and then a standalone to control it. standalones are gonna be $2000-3000 for a 1st generation DI capable unit. Its a waste to pursue..... even if it is possible. All that and you still might only pick up another 100-200whp tops...with DI only.

seriously....whats the point. If the point is getting fuel to the motor.... and your not a guy who jacks off to DI. Then its a no brainer.

[Renzokuken]

I never gave a shit about the DI when I bought the car, Im not trying to save no goddamn whales. Fucken go for it.

[killa cam]

i may be wrong, but won't the cosworth IM fit this car? i would buy that in a heartbeat if i were going to do port injection on this car, if it fits.

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by killa cam i may be wrong, but won't the cosworth IM fit this car? i would buy that in a heartbeat if i were going to do port injection on this car, if it fits.

i dont think it fits. but its probably pretty close.

[Haltech]

Originally Posted by killa cam i may be wrong, but won't the cosworth IM fit this car? i would buy that in a heartbeat if i were going to do port injection on this car, if it fits.

Wont fit a MZR DI head. it WILL fit the Mazda3 head

[killa cam]

bummer! nobody would make one as good as cosworth.

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by Haltech Wont fit a MZR DI head. it WILL fit the Mazda3 head

whats the issue with it? anybody know?

[jhershorin]

There are a few issues. The throttle body is the biggest. The throttle body on the regular 3 faces up at about a 30* angle. If you want randy i have a regular 3 intake manifold layin around. I'll send it to you to see if there are any differences. Otherwise im junkin it.

[Smoker6]

No, but I do know that some Ukrainians are running it on their MZR DISI engines with PI. Saw a thread about that ~6-8 months ago.

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by jhershorin There are a few issues. The throttle body is the biggest. The throttle body on the regular 3 faces up at about a 30* angle. If you want randy i have a regular 3 intake manifold layin around. I'll send it to you to see if there are any differences. Otherwise im junkin it.

nah i think we'll be all right.

what do you think about this topic tho? you and sumark are 2 of the guys that id really want to hear from. i cant believe that mark wouldnt be down for this too with that setup hes about to mess with.

what are the potential problems? i know im acting like this is a piece of cake... but theres bound to be issues with it. you would know as well as any.

[phailerider]

Look very closely at this picture.
Is Lexus "cheating" with their new 3.5l direct injection motor? Did lexus create a frankenstein?

[Smoker6]

Definite hax. I'll never speak to a lexus owner again.

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by Smoker6 Definite hax. I'll never speak to a lexus owner again.

i think you might annoy a few japanese engineers if you told them this motor should only go into a one-off car.... then encouraged them to quit cheating and actually "pioneer" something.

whats funny is Lexus used 6 extra PI injectors, with complete secondary fuel lines, rail and pump... to essentially keep emmisions down on cold startups. thats the only place where DI isnt great for the environment. using that philosophy, then why in the world would we have a problem adding a VERY similar if not identical setup in order acheive extra hp, and overcome our ecus, on our heavily modded tuner cars.

it doesnt even make sense why this is even a question for some.

[spheed3]

Only the high performance Lexus DI engines have the port injection too. Your standard IS250 is straight DI.

[Smoker6]

Just as a (probably unnecessary) note, I'm quite a sarcastic person. That wasn't serious. :p

I'm all for you doing this. I think it's the way to go. I like that you're still incorporating the DI, unlike the Ukis who just went PI all the way.

[Darksun280]

Randy its not a Frankenstein if the parts were made specifically for that motor. Next off using PI to add fuel on top of DI isn't cheating its just away to ignore the fact that your motor uses DI.

If DI's greatest purpose is to improve fuel economy and make more power on less fuel but that doesn't help make big power with it just get rid of it all together. To bad in the end you'd be a built motor mazda 3 not speed 3 IMO.

So let me ask the question what makes a Mazdaspeed3 a mazdaspeed 3?

#01 The Purdy interior
#02 The turbocharged DI injection motor
#03 The stitching on the seat

[spheed3]

You forgot...
#04 "Race inspired" (but if you track your car we void your warranty) suspension

[Darksun280]

Originally Posted by spheed3 You forgot... #04 "Race inspired" (but if you track your car we void your warranty) suspension

LOL

[jhershorin]

Originally Posted by palerider nah i think we'll be all right. what do you think about this topic tho? you and sumark are 2 of the guys that id really want to hear from. i cant believe that mark wouldnt be down for this too with that setup hes about to mess with. what are the potential problems? i know im acting like this is a piece of cake... but theres bound to be issues with it. you would know as well as any.

running a second rail would be nice. you'd NEED it to be run sequential (not batch fire). I know dee's piggy back that he invented (whihc is pretty inexpensive) would be able to control it just by tapping the map sensor. The benefits would be keeping your valves clean. You'd want to stage the injectors very small. run low impediance so you can have low injector times (high impedance don't do well opening at short periods of time). IF i move to the DC area in august i iwll be giving my car to dee for a couple weeks and switching the heads and putting a 3076 t3 flanged turbo on the car with the head built for high revs. i'll run a haltech e8 and call it a day. but for guys like you this second rail with some 28lb injectors that are low impedance could be great.

[smakdown61]

Originally Posted by Darksun280 Randy its not a Frankenstein if the parts were made specifically for that motor. Next off using PI to add fuel on top of DI isn't cheating its just away to ignore the fact that your motor uses DI. If DI's greatest purpose is to improve fuel economy and make more power on less fuel but that doesn't help make big power with it just get rid of it all together. To bad in the end you'd be a built motor mazda 3 not speed 3 IMO. So let me ask the question what makes a Mazdaspeed3 a mazdaspeed 3? #01 The Purdy interior #02 The turbocharged DI injection motor #03 The stitching on the seat

Well, they could have used a port injected motor in the speed 3, made the same power, and would still be just as good. Considering the wrx gets the same gas mileage on a 2.5L with almost the same power, I don't think our DI does jack shit except make slightly more torque.

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by Darksun280 So let me ask the question what makes a Mazdaspeed3 a mazdaspeed 3? #01 The Purdy interior #02 The turbocharged DI injection motor #03 The stitching on the seat

taking out the stock airbox would remove more than our entire plan. we would be adding fuel much the same way you do with your meth kit, as an ADD ON!!!.... and we would be doing this, while removing nothing inherent with the DI. at all times the DI system would be functional.

how the fuck isnt it still a mazdaspeed3, with a purdy interior, turbo DI motor, and stitching on the seat included as well.

[Darksun280]

Originally Posted by smakdown61 Well, they could have used a port injected motor in the speed 3, made the same power, and would still be just as good. Considering the wrx gets the same gas mileage on a 2.5L with almost the same power, I don't think our DI does jack shit except make slightly more torque.

i've yet to find one good thing about DI tell you the truth. God bless that bastard you convinced everyone on the board to put it in our cars.....

[Darksun280]

Originally Posted by palerider taking out the stock airbox would remove more than our entire plan. we would be adding fuel much the same way you do with your meth kit, as an ADD ON!!!.... and we would be doing this, while removing nothing. how the fuck isnt it still a mazdaspeed3, with a purdy interior, turbo DI motor, and stitching on the seat included as well.

Again Randy your going to do it anyway you knew this from the get go so whats the point of this thread? Not that I'm against it but you shouldn't dress up the situation and call it something its not.

So far the recored is

DI: 1 US GUYS: 0

You and Lexus using PI to make power doesn't change the score any.

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by Darksun280 Again Randy your going to do it anyway you knew this from the get go so whats the point of this thread? Not that I'm against it but you shouldn't dress up the situation and call it something its not. So far the recored is DI: 1 US GUYS: 0 You and Lexus using PI to make power doesn't change the score any.

point of this thread is a discussion.... it comes off as an argument because your the only one arguing against it. if there were more guys with your view weighing in it would be more of a discussion.

and for the record look at the poll. 3% of the board agrees with you.

and for the record... you are saying that...
port injected methanol, which is a fuel.... injected to cool the charge and riched the mixture just like gasoline is ok..
but
using gas, on our gas powered motors, for the same purpose.... is not.

this is your position? right?

[Darksun280]

Originally Posted by palerider point of this thread is a discussion.... it comes off as an argument because your the only one arguing against it. if there were more guys with your view weighing in it would be more of a discussion. and for the record look at the poll. 3% of the board agrees with you. and for the record... you are saying that... port injected methanol, which is a fuel.... injected to cool the charge and riched the mixture just like gasoline is ok.. but using gas, on our gas powered motors, for the same purpose.... is not. this is your position? right?

Your poll has 57 votes out of 3,227 members thats hardly a gauge on how the majority of the owners feel. Hell i haven't even voted cause I think its silly to vote on something when the O.P knows what he's going to do already.

Now with the meth I never used meth as a fuel substitute and actually ever since this big turbo and the efficiency of it over my stock turbo, stock top mount setup I haven't needed it. Only reason I ever ran a 50/50 mix instead of all water is that water is harder for the motor to ingest then an alky. My setup was a safety buffer your supposed set up is to essentially ignore the use of DI to make power. Theres a big difference.

[Meder]

After reading about our car over the years I feel like a secondary fueling solution may be the way for us to make power. We've tried to work with our DI system and with the current aftermarket I see no way to make power with our disi engines.

I do feel that we should try and stay true to what the car is, but its not working for us, and in the end I dont really care how we make power. I and I am sure many others are not going to go out and change the fueling system just to make more power, but I know many others here will be all for it. Truth is, DI is ok for me and a lot of others that are happy with a low to mid 300 number, and I am not looking to make a race car here like some others. My wee ms3 runs with many with equal or lesser mods without issues.

I do not know if all this secondary fueling stuff is going to help out the majority of the community, but its just another option for our car that we may have no had. I guess what I am saying here is I do not care if we make power by switching out fuel systems, but myself and many others are probably not going to go this route just to make those big numbers on the disi motor. How would this benefit people like me that do not want huge numbers? I think we are the majority of the community.

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by Darksun280 Your poll has 57 votes out of 3,227 members thats hardly a gauge on how the majority of the owners feel. Hell i haven't even voted cause I think its silly to vote on something when the O.P knows what he's going to do already.

actually 57 votes out of 3227 members...would fit well within the statistical models that one could draw an accurate conclusion from in a poll. the dont poll the enitre country in order to track a presidential race. well less than 1% is usually accurate up to +/- 5% accuracy. and the fact that you have voted or not is irrelevent to the statistics of those that have.

i did not post the poll as a question for what i should do phil. i had already decided. ive made this clear for months that it was a preferable option for me.

i posted the poll to see what the community felt. i know how i felt... i wanted to see the communitys response. It is a good discussion and based on what ive seen from those that have responded.... im only that much more convinced that this is the way the COMMUNITY should pursue this too.

and thats whether or not you agree. I wish you would quit pointing your finger at me and point it at some of the others who disagree with you too. After all... you may change their mind, but as before... despite the fact that i posed this as a question... mines made up.

[Darksun280]

Originally Posted by palerider actually 57 votes out of 3227 members...would fit well within the statistical models that one could draw an accurate conclusion from in a poll. the dont poll the enitre country in order to track a presidential race. well less than 1% is usually accurate up to +/- 5% accuracy. and the fact that you have voted or not is irrelevent to the statistics of those that have. i did not post the poll as a question for what i should do phil. i had already decided. ive made this clear for months that it was a preferable option for me. i posted the poll to see what the community felt. i know how i felt... i wanted to see the communitys response. It is a good discussion and based on what ive seen from those that have responded.... im only that much more convinced that this is the way the COMMUNITY should pursue this too. and thats whether or not you agree. I wish you would quit pointing your finger at me and point it at some of the others who disagree with you too. After all... you may change their mind, but as before... despite the fact that i posed this as a question... mines made up.

We'll its your thread so all questions and responses get focused towards you for now. If I put a bottle of nitrous on my car and made 500 whp how does that help advance the DI community? It doesn't, neither does swapping out the DI head for a PI head or adding in a secondary PI Rail.

Again let me repeat I'm not against any method of making power on this or any car but I wouldn't label all possible solutions as whats best for the DI motor community.

[spnkr21]

This is the way I look at it. Adding just PI on this car isn't cheating and it is helping the community not just randy. The subaru guys are taking STi blocks and dropping them in legacys. I still consider it a legacy with a Sri motor just like ours would still be a speed 3 with a pi motor in it. Their legacy can't get the numbers they want and our DI don't get what we want. Also subaru guys are making hybrid motors of all the best parts from all different years and makes of subies. Not cheating, wicked sick car, and still a legacy (or 2.5rs or whatever).

[m4tic]

Originally Posted by spnkr21 This is the way I look at it. Adding just PI on this car isn't cheating and it is helping the community not just randy. The subaru guys are taking STi blocks and dropping them in legacys. I still consider it a legacy with a Sri motor just like ours would still be a speed 3 with a pi motor in it. Their legacy can't get the numbers they want and our DI don't get what we want. Also subaru guys are making hybrid motors of all the best parts from all different years and makes of subies. Not cheating, wicked sick car, and still a legacy (or 2.5rs or whatever).

the 05+ legacy has the same engine, part # for part # as the STi... minus the tmic, intake and turbo....

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by Darksun280 We'll its your thread so all questions and responses get focused towards you for now. If I put a bottle of nitrous on my car and made 500 whp how does that help advance the DI community? It doesn't, neither does swapping out the DI head for a PI head or adding in a secondary PI Rail. Again let me repeat I'm not against any method of making power on this or any car but I wouldn't label all possible solutions as whats best for the DI motor community.

you dont want to compare this to meth, because thats what you use...but then you use nitrous as an example back to me, when its obvious why nitrous doesnt count. its not FUEL!!!! come on man. your acting like some hardheaded DI engineering geek on this.

and if you or others wont accept PI fueling as a legit option for the community, then your gonna get left behind. pure and simple. your gonna get left behind by the COMMUNITY. the community you think your trying to protect with some preconceived notion of whats "allowed". and thats goofy. making power on a n/a engine with a turbo is alot bigger deal for most communities, than this should be for ours.

Originally Posted by spnkr21 This is the way I look at it. Adding just PI on this car isn't cheating and it is helping the community not just randy. The subaru guys are taking STi blocks and dropping them in legacys. I still consider it a legacy with a Sri motor just like ours would still be a speed 3 with a pi motor in it. Their legacy can't get the numbers they want and our DI don't get what we want. Also subaru guys are making hybrid motors of all the best parts from all different years and makes of subies. Not cheating, wicked sick car, and still a legacy (or 2.5rs or whatever).

great example tim. my neighbors hondas swap parts interchangeably from every b, k, and h motor they got. its an accepted way to make power and its what communitys do. and were not even discussing swapping heads, or fuel... just adding it to the existing motor.

were not trying to make power in order to pioneer some farfetched goal on direct injection. a mazdaspeed wouldnt have been the DI car youd want for that anyway.
but instead were trying to make power to make mazdaspeeds fast. the fact that we can incorporate pi right on top of the di, with the SAME head, and SAME bottom...

then of course id think the community would embrace this.

[Darksun280]

Originally Posted by palerider you dont want to compare this to meth, because thats what you use...but then you use nitrous as an example back to me, when its obvious why nitrous doesn't count. its not FUEL!!!! come on man. make up your mind on this.

Randy I don't use Meth as a Fuel substitute. Never have never will especially not with the D03 nozzle I have on the car its not even mathematically possible for me too.

I'm trying to beat home the fact that even if your plan does work the DI is still going to be there and still be doing nothing.

Making power on a PI secondar rail, cool but doesn't advance DI knowledge

Making power on a PI Head, cool but doesn't advance DI knowledge

Making power with nitrous, cool but doesn't advance DI knowledge

Making power by swapping a V8 into the car, cool but doesn't advance DI knowledge

In the end your 500whp Dual Fuel injected car will have us no more closer to understand DI or figuring out a way to make power with it.

Swap the head Randy. If your going to ignore it you might as well get rid of it. Id actually prefer a way to take it out then to have it sitting there clicking away under the hood reminding me each day it serves no purpose and it's just along for the ride.

I'll leave your thread alone now Randy. I'm not good at being the villain of a thread.

[jhershorin]

I agree. I don't buy into alot of the "injector phase" stuff going around. I am sure it has some part in this but ya...more hype that #s are coming. When building a fun car my idea is different to some and similar to others. Regardless of whats under the hood I built it and its my car which makes it fast. Port injected head swap in my eyes is manning up...not bitching out.

The way things are going for my speed6 if nothing is done by august when I move I will give my car to dee and let him do whatever he wants. All this "pioneering" is in my past. It sucked to do and I give randy props for trying. I will leave my car with dee and pick it up a few days later with 450awhp on a 3076 and port injected head that I tuned using a haltech e8.

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by Darksun280 Randy I don't use Meth as a Fuel substitute. Never have never will especially not with the D03 nozzle I have on the car its not even mathematically possible for me too. I'm trying to beat home the fact that even if your plan does work the DI is still going to be there and still be doing nothing. Making power on a PI secondar rail, cool but doesn't advance DI knowledge Making power on a PI Head, cool but doesn't advance DI knowledge Making power with nitrous, cool but doesn't advance DI knowledge Making power by swapping a V8 into the car, cool but doesn't advance DI knowledge In the end your 500whp Dual Fuel injected car will have us no more closer to understand DI or figuring out a way to make power with it. Swap the head Randy. If your going to ignore it you might as well get rid of it. Id actually prefer a way to take it out then to have it sitting there clicking away under the hood reminding me each day it serves no purpose and it's just along for the ride. I'll leave your thread alone now Randy. I'm not good at being the villain of a thread.

on the lexus motor that uses both... which source is doing "nothing" as you say.

and once again... im not trying to advance DI knowledge!!!!!!!!!! Why the fuck does that even matter? Did any of us start out when we modded this car to do that? I didnt. I looked at gains and gains only. I wanted a faster ms3 form the day i owned it.

when i posted my gt3071r dyno from a year ago... i didnt get a single dude saying... "thank you for advancing DI knowledge randy"....lol It was the power we were making that people cared about.

As far as eliminating the DI... no way!!!! The car is gonna be DI 95% of the time... only on high boost and the drag strip does the PI even come into play. Why should i eliminate the DI? mazda gave it to us and Im gonna work with it. Its fuel... why should we pull it? Plus it works with the stock head. Of course it should stay.

And... like the engineers at Toyota/ Lexus have shown us. the two can work together nicely on one of the most respected DI motors in the world.

i like to see you tell toyota that they didnt advance DI knowledge with that motor.... because they have 12 injectors instead of 6. Write them a letter phil... write them a letter and tell them theyre cheating....lol

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by jhershorin The way things are going for my speed6 if nothing is done by august when I move I will give my car to dee and let him do whatever he wants. All this "pioneering" is in my past. It sucked to do and I give randy props for trying. I will leave my car with dee and pick it up a few days later with 450awhp on a 3076 and port injected head that I tuned using a haltech e8.

if you do that plan... then pioneering WILL NOT be in your past. i gaurantee you that 90% of the community would be willing to do that too from what youve said the costs would be. My option... your option with Dee. Loads of guys will follow. Its the future path for this car.

there is no pioneering DI on this vehicle. we know what the obstacles are, and it will be too cost restrictive to pursue and duplicate. so whats the point. at this point other than just nice engineering discussions and theory... who even cares?

[jhershorin]

By pioneering i simply meant going at a new approach and praying it works. Dee has built so many of these its a past time for him. I have tuned enough with haltechs to know that i can make reliable power no problem. It will essentially be my last car with a much more advanced short block and the same head but AWD and not as big of a turbo.

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by jhershorin By pioneering i simply meant going at a new approach and praying it works. Dee has built so many of these its a past time for him. I have tuned enough with haltechs to know that i can make reliable power no problem. It will essentially be my last car with a much more advanced short block and the same head but AWD and not as big of a turbo.

youre making me jealous. for real. you'll have essentially the same motor that runs 7's in dees car. good grief.
i still want to try a basic PI kit first. i think its simpler and guys all over the country would eat it up. make 500, 600whp... max it out this way first. plus honestlt... i think it would be badass to use both fueling systems in tandem....lol

[jhershorin]

YOU COULD TOO!!!! It's not expensive (it's not cheap but we are always talking in relative terms I guess). All I know is that I am moving two hours from you come August. Either way we'll have some fun.