Port injection on a second rail for big power

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by jhershorin YOU COULD TOO!!!! It's not expensive (it's not cheap but we are always talking in relative terms I guess). All I know is that I am moving two hours from you come August. Either way we'll have some fun.

where the triangle right? that aint two hours man. where are you gonna be again?

i'll probably go full pi eventually on my car..why not. but ive been reading about the lexus motor all day and it just seems cool as hell to incorporate both. its what lexus describes as the "perfect" way to fuel a motor for power, effciency. and emissions.... to use BOTH!!

that is what i intend to play around with. i think its cool. i can always scrap it later if it proves more troubling than we think. i just cant see how tho... unless this ecu just keeps acting up..

[PDXImportRacer]

Originally Posted by Darksun280 Getting rid of the maf is a smart move.

Speed density would be nice. Big HP Subaru's are using SD.

[phailerider]

repost this picture for the 5 guys who think its cheating...lol plus i just think this pic is badass. wards top 10 motor..... the lexus 2gr-fse... its direct injection plus. look at the picture and read the article and tell me how the hell were cheating. Were IMPROVING!!!!





http://www.sae.org/automag/techbrief...1-114-1-17.pdf

[phailerider]

http://www.sae.org/automag/techbrief...1-114-1-17.pdf

this is MANDATORY reading for anybody in this thread. this motor incorporates both and its perfect for our application. read the article and just imagine what we could accomplish using Cobb atr on the DI and a piggyback to control the PI behind it. this is the future of big power on direct injection motors for the aftermarket imo.... check it out i want more opinions on what we would be capable of!!

[LBV]

Isn't controlling the 2 sets of injectors gonna be the big hurdle here? What's the plan there (hope I didn't miss it above somewhere)?

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by LBV Isn't controlling the 2 sets of injectors gonna be the big hurdle here? What's the plan there (hope I didn't miss it above somewhere)?

atr for the DI, and a separate piggyback to incorporate the PI. if lexus can do it we can too.
read the article.

[LBV]

I just read that article and to be honest it makes me think the hurdles that need to be jumped to get this to work effectively are tougher than I thought before I read it.

There was just so much engineering (mechanical & software) that went into that Lexus design that it makes it sound daunting to someone that doesn't have the resources that an OEM has.

I think saying that Lexus can do it and therefore we can on a motor that wasn't even designed to accept PI is really a short-sighted comment. Read that article again and if you're not seeing hurdles like injector design, port design, tumble flow characteristics, fuel mixture, injector timing, etc. you're running towards those hurdles with 1 eye closed.

Don't get me wrong, it may very well work and those that take the risks are those that get rewarded ... but damn, those are some so-so odds as I see it.

No hate man, just my conservative nature showing through and the world's a better place for risk-takers like you so go for it!

[fbpem1]

I have voiced my opinion on this many times over and have pretty much stayed out of this thread and have not read it as there was no need for me to. Why would anyone think its cheating? That's my question for you who think it is for some reason.

Think about this 8 injectors its not a big deal at all the sfwd guys have been doing this forever and its not hard to deal with if they can get the car 100% driveable on 8 1000cc high impedence why would it be such a pain in the ass? Its not plain and simple also you realize that aux. Injectors are a commen thing people whio have been into imports for quite a while should know that rev hard, turbonetics, and fmax all came with auxillary injectors to suppliment the factory ones back in the day and there are some that still do, hell if we were to run the 2nd set of inectors on this car with a return line you could use and afc and an fmu to control them for under 200 bucks now it won't be 100% smooth but it would work and work well, I know a handful of cars that have run 9's on a vafc and fmu setup stop ovetrthinking things stop trying to over engineer things K.I.S.S. gets shit done.

Go for the 2nd rail its not like we are going to run 12 injectors like a methonal honda or 42 injectors like a top fuel car its not that bad its cheap, easy, and efficent.

That's my .02 take it for what it is

[phailerider]

remember... Lexus was trying to tune for emissions, efficiency, etc, etc.... we dont care about all that.
we will only have one goal... power.

i read that and i was encouraged. secondary PI for our application is gonna be simple. just add it and look at a dynograph. add or subtract until you dial the power in. monitor egts... monitor a/fs. we dont need to stinking degree here...lol

the picture that shows how a mix improves combustion in the cylinder... both duration, and mixture... thats the exciting part. Adding PI is good for power AND good for the motor.

dont overthink this. its not going to be near as complicated as you think.

[aviator79]

Well I don’t think I would put this on my car and wouldn’t think I would need it going for 400awhp DD w/ my 3071. I think there are a lot of people that have similar goals. Were not all just looking for the biggest numbers. I think this is especially true for many of us MS6ers. We want an indestructible 400awhp DD without having to put a 35r on the car.

So with this poll you’re not really getting any useful info IMO. If you made it a GI and said would you buy one then maybe that would be more useful to DCR in determining if this would be something that would sell. Right now you only know that out of 50 whatever voters 5 people said that they would not buy this and nothing more. And 90% of the 6club doesn’t get over here and even thou there is not that much activity on that forum, there are a number of us waiting for a solution, but not likely this one. I think this solution would be good for you and a few others. Even thou you have everybody telling you to do it, I don’t think in the end you would have 45 people waiting in line for this.

but,

My current concern is why are engines blowing. Why does #3 seem to let go more than others? I would like DCR to solve this question first really. Because if it is due to say a lean cylinder from one bad (missmatched) injector during that already lean spot down low than your just going to make a louder boom when this happens with a secondary PI. And if it is due to the low end lean spot then how is PI going to fix that? People seem to think it must be the BS that causes it, but then why don’t the M6s and Focuses not blowing as much? Their not boosting, right..maybe…iduno. There are enough threads on here that speculate so I am not going to, but shouldn’t we get DCR some of these blown engines to analyze and determine the route cause of the failure.
And I know this is all on the drawing board now and that this issues would likely be looked at, I just wanted to voice my thoughts.

[phailerider]

more info...

the same guys that made 605whp on a gti, have also incorporated a intake manifold, 4 more secondary injectors, and ecu controller for PI with e85 on another one of their shop cars. They did it without eliminating the DI.

heres the link

VWvortex Forums: Obama said go green....so USP went green! (E85 Content)

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by aviator79 Well I don’t think I would put this on my car and wouldn’t think I would need it going for 400awhp DD w/ my 3071. I think there are a lot of people that have similar goals. Were not all just looking for the biggest numbers. I think this is especially true for many of us MS6ers. We want an indestructible 400awhp DD without having to put a 35r on the car. So with this poll you’re not really getting any useful info IMO. If you made it a GI and said would you buy one then maybe that would be more useful to DCR in determining if this would be something that would sell. Right now you only know that out of 50 whatever voters 5 people said that they would not buy this and nothing more. And 90% of the 6club doesn’t get over here and even thou there is not that much activity on that forum, there are a number of us waiting for a solution, but not likely this one. I think this solution would be good for you and a few others. Even thou you have everybody telling you to do it, I don’t think in the end you would have 45 people waiting in line for this. but, My current concern is why are engines blowing. Why does #3 seem to let go more than others? I would like DCR to solve this question first really. Because if it is due to say a lean cylinder from one bad injector than your just going to make a louder boom when this happens with a secondary PI. And if it is due to the low end lean spot then how is PI going to fix that? People seem to think it must be the BS that causes it, but then why don’t the M6s and Focuses not blowing as much? Their not boosting, right..maybe…iduno. There are enough threads on here that speculate so I am not going to, but shouldn’t we get DCR some of these blown engines to analyze and determine the route cause of the failure. And I know this is all on the drawing board now and that this issues would likely be looked at, I just wanted to voice my thoughts.

actually its 5 voters out of 74. my guess on the engine?
lack of ecu control, weaker than average engine, with the shittiest version of DI on the planet is why we dont make power and our engines blow. PI would solve all that. for all we know its the crappy, experimental, cheap, di thats causing all our motors to knock and blow. what then compadre?

dcr is gonna look at our setup and say wtf when di makes no power and our motors blow like tissue paper. what do you think hes gonna say then?

if you dont think secondary PI fueling kits would sell then you havent looked at other markets where guys swap engine parts all over the place for the pursuit of decent power. Of course it would sell here. at least for the guys who want more than 350whp. and even guys who want less on the stock bottom end.

and if we sold 10 kits for this in the 3 months after we released it... then that would be fine. eventually people will see it is the best way for power, reliability, and cost out there. i believe it. our cars in 100% di form suck.

[lidokrantz]

quote aviator. My current concern is why are engines blowing....

INDEED !!!!! We are all rooting for a breakthru on big power for you and some of the members going in that direction...and IMO let DCR or anyone figure out the best possible route to that destination without you or anyone else putting loads of money into it without positive results. I did not vote,,,but seeing what you and a few more cat's have gone thru already....this community REALLY has had enough failures to read already...besides the fact that the failures occuring in members car have been 2000% worse for them...MY vote-----anyway possible that works is the way to go for 400-500whp....
But as aviator mentioned....we really need someone to give the 99% of us 350whp and less cat's the path to long term reliability. i would be happy with 300 whp and safe...IMO the most important thing for the Speed community.

[phailerider]

again... after researching all wekend. and talking to a few people. i believe the issue with this car is the DI system we have, and with just poor overall design.
it is the first mazda offered, and i think all the issues with the motor need to be addressed with the way it is fueled before anything else.

why all the knock, why all the engine failures... and if dcr identifys it. are you gonna build your motor, upgrade the fuel system, and buy a standalone to fix it?
if your gonna do all that... you might as well just incorporate PI. and if you have your heart set on di... then buy a vw or a bmw.

[aviator79]

Originally Posted by palerider actually its 5 voters out of 74. my guess on the engine? lack of ecu control, weaker than average engine, with the shittiest version of DI on the planet is why we dont make power and our engines blow. PI would solve all that. for all we know its the crappy, experimental, cheap, di thats causing all our motors to knock and blow. what then compadre?

Well if our DI system is proven to be too unreliable and/or the reason we are blowing, which is possible, then you need to fix the DI system or do away with it completely.

dcr is gonna look at our setup and say wtf when di makes no power and our motors blow like tissue paper. what do you think hes gonna say then?

I dont know. what are they going to say? I guess I really want to see what SSintaller can do now. With the fact that our injectors are not properly matched OEM and that they can be flowed up to 20% more I think my goals are attainable w/o PI and W/O new injectors. And again I think there are many more people with goals simaler to mine than there are people shooting for the starts like you.

if you dont think secondary PI fueling kits would sell then you havent looked at other markets where guys swap engine parts all over the place for the pursuit of decent power. Of course it would sell here. at least for the guys who want more than 350whp. and even guys who want less on the stock bottom end.

Yes it if is the only solution it will sell. I never said it wouldnt. I am trying to say that it seems a bit overkill for me wanting 400awhp. And again if our DI is inherently flawed then you cant just slap PI on without fixing and improving it to begine with, so I for now I will just wait and see. I am too poor to tackle any of these issues myself so I do thank you for bringing DCR into the picture.

[fbpem1]

those of you who want to stay with the 1 mechanical pump give Kinsler a call, maybe they have something they can work with its the #1 mechanical fuel pump from what i can tell, a few pro car guys are running them in profwd and i know tons and tons of domestics run them.

[Boother]

Originally Posted by palerider http://www.sae.org/automag/techbrief...1-114-1-17.pdf this is MANDATORY reading for anybody in this thread. this motor incorporates both and its perfect for our application. read the article and just imagine what we could accomplish using Cobb atr on the DI and a piggyback to control the PI behind it. this is the future of big power on direct injection motors for the aftermarket imo.... check it out i want more opinions on what we would be capable of!!

Did you miss the point where it says "Ultimately, in high rpm zone, 100-percent DIRECT-INJECTION is used to obtain higher torque"?

Once ATR is released and we have the ability to control the injectors, we will be able to put larger injectors (and supporting fuel pumps and lines if needed) in place of the stock ones and make alot more power without trying to control an extra set of port injectors with a piggy-back.

It is no different than the issues that arised with normal fuel injection. The stock injectors could only supply so much fuel during the injection cycle. Duty cycle (injector on time) was getting above 80%. We needed more fuel and larger injectors where swapped in place. However, without ECU control, the larger injectors where dumping more fuel during the same injection cycle. With tuning solutions, injector pulse width could be reduced to meet the fuel demands at part load, while the larger injectors could supply enough fuel at full load.

With DI, we do not have the same amount of time to inject fuel (less than half as much actually), but that does not mean that larger injectors could not supply the required amount of fuel during that short period. The same injector control rules used on regular port injection apply for DI, just in a smaller window.

[phailerider]

i didnt miss any damn point... i think you missed mine
who cares if Lexus designed their fuel system well enough to use 100% DI in the higher rpms. the point is that they used it together. we can use it too, and we'll use it for power because we CANT control the pos DI on THIS car. and yes... that is including the cobb atr. i dont believe it will be enough.

let me ask you something.... do think its weak rods why our motors blow over 320whp, unless your spraying meth to give extra fuel and protection? why do you think we knock so bad? why do you think we have so much hesitation during acceleration?

its poorly conceived DI, and poor oem ems as well. and no reasonable amount of upgrades or cobb tuning is going to overcome this...lol

if you doubt it look what they just did on the caliber with a simple aem piggyback.
or research whats available on volkswagons
or read about DI bimmers that start with only 30whp more than us.

our system is garbage. and it lays at the feet of trashy DI, and oem ecu logic.

[MiSbrigo3]

Originally Posted by palerider im trying to pioneer power on the ms3 phil. im not trying to pioneer DI. i could give a fuck about being the guy who pioneers di. this isnt about direct injection.... this is about the mazdaspeed. some cars are limited by DI, some seem not to be so much. Even if i spend a fortune in time, money and resources so i can fulfill your ridiculous definition of pioneer..... then i have accomplished nothing i could nt have done much more safely, effectively, and less expensively with additional PI. I THINK..... the future of cheap four banger DI turbos is gonna be exactly what im doing. why not? Not this other hardheadedness that your saying is "the pioneer" way. We KNOW what the issue is and it isnt easily overcomeable on this car for big power. Knowing that now.... it needs to be scraped. And if we "put it all together"... and someday make 400-450whp with DI alone, then i'll still be glad i didnt waste my time. Cause the car will still be slow, ferociously expensive to mod, and most important... completely irrelevent. i have no intention of pioneering irrelevence. I want to show the way for hundreds of affordable, 400--800whp ms3-6s in a couple years time. Thats what im hoping to be the pioneer of.

So this quote is on pg. 2 of 4 (at the time I'm typing this) of this thread...I haven't even gotten to the end of the thread's posts, but I've been trying to figure out how to word what my opinion is on the matter since Randy's first post. Since Randy worded it perfectly, I'm just going to give an emphatic "+1" to the above quote.

Look, it's not like adding PI all of a sudden stops the car from being a Mazdaspeed. An engine swap (outside of a built MZR)? Different story. The guts of this car will still be the MZR DISI 2.3 turbo, and as long as that is the case, the word "cheating" makes absolutely no sense to me. Do we think of it as cheating when people turbo stock NA motors because making big NA power can only go so far? Hell no! Their NA engine is limited in its own ways, and they take a logical and reliable step by dropping in the turbo to make more power. Our engine is obviously limited in its stock form, and this seems to be a logical and reliable step forward to combat that (though I guess the "reliable" part is still technically up in the air).

And embarrassed to have to run secondary PI to make big power? It seems to me like we're already embarrassed and frustrated enough (though I haven't personally met that embarrassment and frustration head on like so many of you have) by that cement wall Randy noted, and that fact that we can't hit 400whp to save our lives, and that our motors are popping left and right regardless.

I think this secondary PI idea is outside-the-box thinking that's coming not a moment too soon--I'm 100% behind it.

[phailerider]

thankyou brigo. i dont think were in the minority here.

[Ziggo]

I probably won't ever be looking for the kind of power you are going for here, but I see no reason why PI would be an issue. If the DI truly isn't able to supply enough fuel, then mixing in some extra in the intake certainly doesn't seem like cheating or even that difficult.

People talking about the "future" of cars need to understand that DI is being used for emissions & mileage purposes, with the goal of eventually having effective lean burn engines. It was never "hey I know how to make massive power, lets use DI." Even when the secondary rail kicks in, you are still going to be getting all the benefits of the DI system where it concerns big power, mostly the reduction of compression temp due to injection during compression. The two systems would, in theory, compliment each other.

[Renzokuken]

Im never buying anothe DI car again.

[demonspeed]

I still feel that mastering the DI system should be the top priority of a aftermarket parts developer, as financially, it would make more sense because I believe the vast majority of people aren't willing to spend the money/time/effort into doing a hybrid system.

That said, you convinced me, for big power, it's going to be the easiest way, and front what little I know of fuel injection, it shouldn't be hard to control at all, especially if the controller based the PI fuel flow off of a MAP sensor. Then you could program it to only inject once you were boosting, and you could adjust flow based off of the pressure the turbo was pushing. This would keep the part throttle cruise fuel efficiency of DI, while giving you the flow when you needed it.


As a completely unrelated statement, Randy is the man, I just got my inlet, so I'm in a good mood

[mdogg]

Originally Posted by Renzokuken Im never buying anothe DI car again.

Good luck. As has been stated, it's the wave of the future (even though Randy doesn't care about that ).... chances are pretty good that in 5-10 years it will be difficult to find non-DI engines in the US.

The real issue HERE is that this was Mazda's first and very poor attempt to be on the forefront of the DI technology. Obviously, we've seen examples where it works, and works quite well. There will likely be limitations on it to some extent, but as it becomes more and more popular in general, there will be universal work-arounds to address the issues that arise.

I'm not old enough to remember, but I'd assume that fuel injection produced its share of frustration when it was "new".

[dallasms3gt]

I voted Go for it 100%, however, I would still like to see the final price tag to make an educated decision. If I had the option of spending $2-4K to make 450 reliable/safe WHP, I would buy the product in a minute, and wouldn't give a shit what anyone thought about cheating..

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by dallasms3gt I voted Go for it 100%, however, I would still like to see the final price tag to make an educated decision. If I had the option of spending $2-4K to make 450 reliable/safe WHP, I would buy the product in a minute, and wouldn't give a shit what anyone thought about cheating..

if i had to guess id say all the guys who voted to see the cost first will change their mind to got for it 100% once tehy DO see the cost vs the alternative. the biggest expenditure will be the ems and the intake manifold.
and even if you were trying to make big power with DI youd have to pop for that anyway.

[802MS3]

Originally Posted by mdogg Good luck. As has been stated, it's the wave of the future (even though Randy doesn't care about that ).... chances are pretty good that in 5-10 years it will be difficult to find non-DI engines in the US. The real issue HERE is that this was Mazda's first and very poor attempt to be on the forefront of the DI technology. Obviously, we've seen examples where it works, and works quite well. There will likely be limitations on it to some extent, but as it becomes more and more popular in general, there will be universal work-arounds to address the issues that arise. I'm not old enough to remember, but I'd assume that fuel injection produced its share of frustration when it was "new".

truth. DI is the future and can be used to make big power. It will come to us eventually. Even the new Gallardo LP560-4 uses DI (Lamborghini Gallardo - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia). Its a revised Audi RS6 V10. Obviously the power is limited to the size of the engine, and the DISI was built with cost as a major factor, but DI is a very cool concept and it will be the replacement to PI.

[ATE BALLER]

Yes, and the most cost effective measure for people to make big power in their smaller DI motors in the future will likely be to add port injection. Once ATR and ECUEDIT hit the scenes, it will be so easy, phillyb couldn't fuck it up. Flatten out all tables after a certain boost, and have a secondary fuel controller kick in using speed-density. They come with the logic and tables already there, you just have to scale them down to account for the DI that is already pumping a constant amount of fuel per ATR or ECUEDIT. If the 2010 intake manifold will actually bolt up to our head as Randy states it will, the hardest part will be putting in a bigger intank pump (which I've already done ). Mazda fucked us on the DI fuel system when they released the ms6 in 2006, but they're making it up to us by GIVING us a manifold to integrate PI. Just in time for the ECU to finally be cracked at that. It's fucking beautiful I tell you!

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by opt_ms3 truth. DI is the future and can be used to make big power. It will come to us eventually. Even the new Gallardo LP560-4 uses DI (Lamborghini Gallardo - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia). Its a revised Audi RS6 V10. Obviously the power is limited to the size of the engine, and the DISI was built with cost as a major factor, but DI is a very cool concept and it will be the replacement to PI.

i'll tell you this... were all gonna live long enough to see gas motored cars abolished completely in our lifetime. theres always gonna be something else. and when we MODIFY our cars to go faster.... we do just what the term implies.

if tomorrow someone showed me how i could put a fucking solar panel on my car and it would make it go faster... then id figure out a way to fit two. whatever works.... and whatever works the best.
i aint thomas edison here. i just want a stupid fast car like nobody else has.

[JohnnyT]

Who cares how you get there or what you use to do it - just get there, make it reliable, moderately priced, and the rest will follow. Our needs are easy to meet, simply because Mazda didn't give it to us from the factory.

[superskaterxes]

Originally Posted by palerider i'll tell you this... were all gonna live long enough to see gas motored cars abolished completely in our lifetime. theres always gonna be something else. and when we MODIFY our cars to go faster.... we do just what the term implies. if tomorrow someone showed me how i could put a fucking solar panel on my car and it would make it go faster... then id figure out a way to fit two. whatever works.... and whatever works the best. i aint thomas edison here. i just want a stupid fast car like nobody else has.

rofl

who wants to see randy put solar panels on his car?

**raises hand** lol

[dallasms3gt]

Originally Posted by JohnnyT Who cares how you get there or what you use to do it - just get there, make it reliable, moderately priced, and the rest will follow. Our needs are easy to meet, simply because Mazda didn't give it to us from the factory.

Damn, Johnny T, that 6 looks mean..

[Haltech]

Originally Posted by superskaterxes rofl who wants to see randy put solar panels on his car? **raises hand** lol

Ricers would mistaken it for carbon fiber roof panels.

[phailerider]

so i was up at dcr today... cars officially starting the cut up process tomorrow, and we were talking again. cost on this with the whole shebang....

badass custom intake manifold
injectors
lines
pumps
rails
fuel controller
around 3k... and the skys the limit. PI or DI/PI makes no difference. And this is with all top of the line stuff like what they make for their big power cars. im sure we could offer lesser versions.

just thought id throw that back out there. im really excited about this, and he reiterated that he wanted to keep the di system in place. which for now i really agree with. hes been researching a ton and has already talked to at least 2 other well known names about a collaboration on our cars. its beginning soon.

[SSinstaller]

Great news.

BTW, I talked to my dealer today, and will be going to pick up the second longblock from them on friday. You can come down and pick them up anyday next week...

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by SSinstaller Great news. BTW, I talked to my dealer today, and will be going to pick up the second longblock from them on friday. You can come down and pick them up anyday next week...

both!!! thats great. i'll be there probably tuesday or wednesday!!!!

[Lex]

For BIG power I think this is a good approach. Tuning big power injectors for streetability is not fun so leaving the stock DI system in place is good. Adding the extra fuel through external injectors is cost effective and simpler to develop at this time than reworking the stock DI system.

[flz33]

$3000 isn't too shabby for a great shop to do so much work.

What fuel controller is being used? Why can't we just use the SB secondary fuel controller instead?

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by flz33 I say do a complete conversion to port injection. Plug the holes for the DI inj., slap on a fuel rail, injectors, tune for secondary fueling via SB. Enough talk.. I've read 2.5 pages and cant take this anymore. Seems like a good idea and has been talked about on several forums for nearly 2 years as I remember.

well the thought was that ecu tuning, and DI fueling upgrades would alleviate the need for it. i think theres a bunch of us that will go this route now.

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by flz33 $3000 isn't too shabby for a great shop to do so much work. What fuel controller is being used? Why can't we just use the SB secondary fuel controller instead?

changed your post...lol

sb could be used. i know thats what it was also designed for. but i wont make that decision.