Port injection on a second rail for big power

[wassup61]

I don't want to piss on anyone's parade, but there's a few problems here. Randy please PM me to discuss.

Jeff at PG

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by wassup61 I don't want to piss on anyone's parade, but there's a few problems here. Randy please PM me to discuss. Jeff at PG

theres no problem. are you refering to this...

NOTE haltech said the 2010 mazda3's use the same heads as us... that is not true. the mazda3s have plastic manifolds, and is completely different from our head. there is no fit.

however the guys that wanted that head on this motor could convert it really easy for full PI.

[flz33]

Just trying to find an alternative to having to purchase a fuel controller... and perhaps incorporate a fuel rail/injectors TO the stock IM, instead of buying/fabbing an IM.

I will say not many will drop even $2000 for this conversion.

I have spent nearly $13k in my car mods, repairs, etc. Maybe more.. I;m honestly too pussy to count up all the money I spent.

I am one of the first 2 or 3 people to even get big turbo, in my Speed6, so it's just more incentive to see what you can do with PI, and if successful, perhaps go that route, as economically, yet safely, as possible. I don't want to spend much money on this car, but if I can convert for say, $1200ish, I'd fucking do it, and go for that 400whp on stock block. Thats 75hp more than I have now.

[wassup61]

Originally Posted by palerider theres no problem. are you refering to this... NOTE haltech said the 2010 mazda3's use the same heads as us... that is not true. the mazda3s have plastic manifolds, and is completely different from our head. there is no fit. however the guys that wanted that head on this motor could convert it really easy for full PI.

I am not referring to that. You are talking about a complete topend conversion with a new PCM. Definitely not less than $2000.

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by flz33 Just trying to find an alternative to having to purchase a fuel controller... and perhaps incorporate a fuel rail/injectors TO the stock IM, instead of buying/fabbing an IM. I will say not many will drop even $2000 for this conversion. I have spent nearly $13k in my car mods, repairs, etc. Maybe more.. I;m honestly too pussy to count up all the money I spent. I am one of the first 2 or 3 people to even get big turbo, in my Speed6, so it's just more incentive to see what you can do with PI, and if successful, perhaps go that route, as economically, yet safely, as possible. I don't want to spend much money on this car, but if I can convert for say, $1200ish, I'd fucking do it, and go for that 400whp on stock block. Thats 75hp more than I have now.

its not an option if your not gonna build the motor, and get a new intake manifold/throttle body anyway. if you dont want to spend money and you want to do 375whp on the stock block i have just one thing to say......

step..away...from...your...car...slowly, sir!!!

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by wassup61 I am not referring to that. You are talking about a complete topend conversion with a new PCM. Definitely not less than $2000.

dude...we are so lost. there are 2-3 options out there. we are going to do di with a secondary fuel rail. read the thread and you'll see what the plan is.

im just saying that a full pi conversion is not out of the question eventually to if we wanted to do full standalone. theres only 1 oil line that needed to be machined to make it fit, and another one plugged from my understanding.

[ATE BALLER]

I'm willing to bet the stock block could take a little more with PI added.

[ms3guy22]

I know that in the heat of wanting big power we've all ventured down the road of buying parts slapping them on and praying that it works.
Randy i really don't give a fuck about having a 500-800 whp ms3. That is way to impractical. I think the numbers thing has gone to your head a little. Have you ever been in a 600whp dd. I have it was way to much! Acutally 400-450whp on a dd for a fwd is too much. Step back take a breather and realize how high your goal is. PI seems to me to be a quick fix to a problem that won't go away if we turn our backs on it.
My next questions is what are you going to do about the tranny, axles, and the supproting mods. nobody knows were the limits are on the rest of the power train. Do you want to find out at 450whp your tranny fries, and you'll need to invest thousands to beef up the tranny?
If you want a dedicted 10sec 1/4 ms3, go for it. As one of the few who has ventured down this lonely road of being broke, and pist off......... I doubt many will go big even if you figure out the PI idea. Its just not worth it, to spend 25k in mods to have a 450 whp fwd car..
numbers are useless if you can not do anything with them

[Deadman]

^ +1
nobody knows the limits... nobody has had the chance to push the limits (with proper tuning/fueling) I wont be building shit on this car, would love a successful 350-400awhp DD on stock block. I want to believe its possible as Ron pushed his shit to the limits and it held up for the time being lol... we will soon see !

and ms3guy is imo right.. this car is just not worth the money that is needed to really push it to where you want it to go. If its worth it for you great id love to see it! Realistically i think 350-400 is where its gonna be

[Darksun280]

Originally Posted by ms3guy22 I know that in the heat of wanting big power we've all ventured down the road of buying parts slapping them on and praying that it works. Randy i really don't give a fuck about having a 500-800 whp ms3. That is way to impractical. I think the numbers thing has gone to your head a little. Have you ever been in a 600whp dd. I have it was way to much! Acutally 400-450whp on a dd for a fwd is too much. Step back take a breather and realize how high your goal is. PI seems to me to be a quick fix to a problem that won't go away if we turn our backs on it. My next questions is what are you going to do about the tranny, axles, and the supproting mods. nobody knows were the limits are on the rest of the power train. Do you want to find out at 450whp your tranny fries, and you'll need to invest thousands to beef up the tranny? If you want a dedicted 10sec 1/4 ms3, go for it. As one of the few who has ventured down this lonely road of being broke, and pist off......... I doubt many will go big even if you figure out the PI idea. Its just not worth it, to spend 25k in mods to have a 450 whp fwd car.. numbers are useless if you can not do anything with them

Seems like some one had a Zen moment and finally found inner peace with there car.

[whoosh@Realtune]

Originally Posted by Darksun280 Seems like some one had a Zen moment and finally found inner peace with there car.

it's not worth the fighting but you can have a high HP DD

I'm running around on a pump gas tune and have a race gas balls suck up in your body tune that can be switched in 30 seconds (add time to add race fuel mix)

you don't have to run around "full tilt" all the time but know you can bump up powerz when shit gets real

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by Deadman ^ +1 nobody knows the limits... nobody has had the chance to push the limits (with proper tuning/fueling) I wont be building shit on this car, would love a successful 350-400awhp DD on stock block. I want to believe its possible as Ron pushed his shit to the limits and it held up for the time being lol... we will soon see ! and ms3guy is imo right.. this car is just not worth the money that is needed to really push it to where you want it to go. If its worth it for you great id love to see it! Realistically i think 350-400 is where its gonna be

Originally Posted by ms3guy22 I know that in the heat of wanting big power we've all ventured down the road of buying parts slapping them on and praying that it works. Randy i really don't give a fuck about having a 500-800 whp ms3. That is way to impractical. I think the numbers thing has gone to your head a little. Have you ever been in a 600whp dd. I have it was way to much! Acutally 400-450whp on a dd for a fwd is too much. Step back take a breather and realize how high your goal is. PI seems to me to be a quick fix to a problem that won't go away if we turn our backs on it. My next questions is what are you going to do about the tranny, axles, and the supproting mods. nobody knows were the limits are on the rest of the power train. Do you want to find out at 450whp your tranny fries, and you'll need to invest thousands to beef up the tranny? If you want a dedicted 10sec 1/4 ms3, go for it. As one of the few who has ventured down this lonely road of being broke, and pist off......... I doubt many will go big even if you figure out the PI idea. Its just not worth it, to spend 25k in mods to have a 450 whp fwd car.. numbers are useless if you can not do anything with them

Originally Posted by Darksun280 Seems like some one had a Zen moment and finally found inner peace with there car.

you guys just dont get it do you. what the hell do i care if its a daily driver. ive had it fro 2 months, out of the last 14 to dd, before p3 blew it up again.... the damn car is NOT MY FUCKIN DD. ive got a gti that is a far better vehicle to have 350whp as a daily driver. if i wanted 350whp in my dd id mod that. this is about working with dcr on a racecar to finally give this community hope.

were gonna sell built motors, and secondary fueling kits that could be done with single injectors all the way up to what im gonna do. you guys just fucking dont get it. this is the CHEAP way to go about it.

and as far as this car and whether all that power is realistic or not. all i can say is .....lol. in 1999 DCR made a n/a nitrous neon go fucking faster than our car ever has. they threw a turbo on it and then over the next decade with sponsorship with mopar... pioneered the fucking srt platform. they were the inspiration for it. they wer the brains that initiated it. and do you think for a minute any of that would ever have happened if back in 1999, when Darrell Cox was sitting in his living room and he said to himself...

im just gonna scrap the project because no one would ever sink that kind of money or ever want to go fast in a fucking fwd neon.

what if he had said that?
What the fuck would have happened if DCR had had the shortsighted woe is me, nobody wants to go fast mentality all you pussys have?

I'll tell you what hed have done... he would have been doing oil changes for his living...thats what. Instead hes going to give this community the oppurtunity to have a fucking racecar. And if nobody wants to follow suit and go for big power on this platform... then we really are different from all the rest. We really are nothing but a bunch of whining pussys. Maybe we all should just bitch and moan and wait for the next waste of a ecu flash project that comes down the pike... the one that gives us the holy grail of power you think 400whp is.

fuck waiting for nothing. and FUCK 400whp. its weak sauce.

end rant.

[psychophyr]

I've been lurking for a bit and haven't posted yet because I don't feel that I have had anything important to say, until now:

As it has been mentioned already, palerider is intent on using PI and trying to max out the capabilities of this car. I say let him break his own shit if thats what happens. Who else is going to push it that far? And as far as I know noone really knows the limits of the engine/drivetrain, what a perfect opportunity to find out. Let someone else who gets thier hands on the ATR / ECUedit software figure out the pulsewidth to last through the intake stroke, to me that seems to be the whole issue around DI. Palerider may not be the one to "pioneer" the DI solution, but he sure as fuck is going to test and break the limits of the car, which will provide useful knowledge for DI and Hybrid PI/DI fans alike. So just let it happen

And with that I have popped my post cherry

[ms3guy22]

Randy,
come on now. A race car is a race car! Your right, but it sounds like your wondering in the thread if it was be a main stream idea that every tom dick and hairy would put on his ms3. so what is it, it the PI strictly for all out track cars(non dd). Or is it for the person who wants 450 whp,to wrap around a tree?
it PI is for a track car than hell yeah. pouring money into a dedicated project is legit...Btw what does DCR and the history of the srt-4 have to do with the current discussion?

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by ms3guy22 Randy, come on now. A race car is a race car! Your right, but it sounds like your wondering in the thread if it was be a main stream idea that every tom dick and hairy would put on his ms3. so what is it, it the PI strictly for all out track cars(non dd). Or is it for the person who wants 450 whp,to wrap around a tree? it PI is for a track car than hell yeah. pouring money into a dedicated project is legit...Btw what does DCR and the history of the srt-4 have to do with the current discussion?

youre not a pioneer and youd be better off getting it back to stock and getting a nice little cobb flash with that mentality.

i go to dcr every week and i see dozens of guys blowing up the phones to get their fucking neons on the lift in there. Dozens of guys wanting to spend 10-20k on their car with a built engine and the works, so they can run around with massive power on the street....

it might not be practical to make this kind of power with guys that want a dd with this current community. but as ms3s slowly drop in value and guys are picking them up for under 10k... then having a 600whp ms3 with a built motor as the project car becomes only that more realistic. and theres a fucking ton of 600whp fwd dds out there.... a TON!!! if you dont think thats true than you dont have the first clue about the aftermarket. not one.

and if nobody gets behind this then dcr picked the wrong platform. every other platform that makes serious power has guys willing to spend shittons... rsxs, srts, stis, evos, fords, chevys.... the country is full of guys that drop shittons of cash on their cars to make them go fast and fwd usually has nothing to do with it.

is the mazda community different? are they? if they are let me know now. i'll tell darrell we should move on... and me with him. im ashamed of the attitude in here.

[ATE BALLER]

Don't forget about us awd folks that would be alot more capable of putting that power to the ground. Ever seen an awd launch out of a 800whp dsm with slicks?

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by ATE BALLER Don't forget about us awd folks that would be alot more capable of putting that power to the ground. Ever seen an awd launch out of a 800whp dsm with slicks?

so true.

these other guys are saying that the ms6 crowd is to weak sauce and broke to want the same things th sti/ evo crowd is more than willing to spend for.

i think you, ssinstaller, mark, and a slew of others would disagree.

[MarkyMark]

Originally Posted by wassup61 I don't want to piss on anyone's parade, but there's a few problems here. Randy please PM me to discuss. Jeff at PG

Why can't you just tell us?

[ms3guy22]

[QUOTE=palerider;199446]youre not a pioneer and youd be better off getting it back to stock and getting a nice little cobb flash with that mentality.
QUOTE]

wow randy! what the fuck is your problem? Bro, really i don't know what would lead you act this but, its unwarranted. I would have thought that through the relationship that has been built over this past year, you most def wouldn't attack me like this. More especially because i've not said anything negative about dcr, the platform, or towards you in general
i'm not a pioneer? wtf is that about! I never claimed to be. Going back to stock and getting a little cobb flash?? really are you not thinking thinking rational here? I don't understand why your so pissy. Just because I don't agree the PI things doesn't mean I don't believe in the platform, or high hp #'s, or having a fast car. But, your aspirations are respectable but really high. Can you do it, yes you can! Will alot of people follow your set path, they will(i did).And to tell me that i know nothing about the aftermarket is just plain retarded.
I'm still in shock about your post in general...................

[Darksun280]

[quote=ms3guy22;199490]

Originally Posted by palerider youre not a pioneer and youd be better off getting it back to stock and getting a nice little cobb flash with that mentality. QUOTE] wow randy! what the fuck is your problem? Bro, really i don't know what would lead you act this but, its unwarranted. I would have thought that through the relationship that has been built over this past year, you most def wouldn't attack me like this. More especially because i've not said anything negative about dcr, the platform, or towards you in general i'm not a pioneer? wtf is that about! I never claimed to be. Going back to stock and getting a little cobb flash?? really are you not thinking thinking rational here? I don't understand what your so pissy. Just because I don't agree the PI things doesn't mean I don't believe in the platform, or high hp #'s, or having a fast car. But, your aspirations are respectable but really high. Can you do it, yes you can! Will alot of people follow your set path, they will(i did).And to tell me that i know nothing about the aftermarket is just plain retarded. I'm still in shock about your post in general...................

I don't think Randy ment it to hurt your feelings but when he gets like this its just best to drop out the thread. He's in an argumentative mood this week.

[ms3guy22]

my feeling are hurt...just surprised.

[MarkyMark]

Tampons, Aisle 11.

lol.

[ms3guy22]

midal, please the cramps are fucking killing me.

[Darksun280]

Hey Randy you'll find this funny. The DI cobalts are going with a port fueler set up as well. My boy just called me and said Hahns sending him a kit to test. the DI wall is whooping there asses too and there not so sure on that 400whp dyno anymore just like our 411 evil monkey situation. There going to dyno the gt3076 DI one at Nrg soon and I'm gonna be there to witness that fiasco.

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by Darksun280 I don't think Randy ment it to hurt your feelings but when he gets like this its just best to drop out the thread. He's in an argumentative mood this week.

yeah...im excited about my car again.
and i have to deal with all the prominent ms3 owners in the community telling me that over 400whp is gonna be just a waste. and theyre bitching about too much money when its gonna be basically the most dirt cheap option to big power out there. pisses me off.

apparently only in this community is 400whp "enough"..... im mad about it and having second thoughts. why should i convince dcr to invest in apparently the only tuner community in the world where all the "pioneers" are comfrotable with 400whp.... and cars that are too slow to have to worry about wrapping them around a tree.

im being serious here. work is starting soon and all im getting is bitching from alot of you. whether you choose this or not... it should be supported. anywhere else it would be.

in the gti community when uspmotorsports announced their secondary PI car there was nothing like this response here.

[Darksun280]

You read what I posted yet knuckle head?

[Deadman]

im all for it Randy, have been since you brought this option along. Can't wait to see what comes along the DCR road.

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by Darksun280 Hey Randy you'll find this funny. The DI cobalts are going with a port fueler set up as well. My boy just called me and said Hahns sending him a kit to test. the DI wall is whooping there asses too and there not so sure on that 400whp dyno anymore just like our 411 evil monkey situation. There going to dyno the gt3076 DI one at Nrg soon and I'm gonna be there to witness that fiasco.

ok... so the gtis have done it, the cobalts are doing it, were gonna do it.... this is how big power will be made on DI.
and the sooner you all get used to it the better it will be for us. there are gonna be hurdles there like elsewhere... and id rather make the discussion about that...

then whether its "worth" it.
or the "right" way to make power either.

thanks for sharing phil.

[clos561]

ptp mentioned something about needing to control the pulse rate or the time frame of the injectors to dump more fuel in. what happend to that? was it scrapped because of what happend with cobb?

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by Darksun280 You read what I posted yet knuckle head?

me = knuckle head

how many injectors are they gonna add initially?

[fbpem1]

i support it in fact i told you i wanted this and i was gonna have it done either way

who gives a fuck if people think its cheating or not right, tough shit you have 2 choices stick @ 380 or go beyond those are your choices, thats all thats it those who don't like it go away

[SSinstaller]

Fuck all the whiners!

Just watch their tune change when we hit 500 then 600whp, and their still stuck in the 300's..

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by SSinstaller Fuck all the whiners! Just watch their tune change when we hit 500 then 600whp, and their still stuck in the 300's..

maybe so... but i really doubt the cobalt owners are talking shit to the guys on the forefront about their goals. i know thats not going on in the gti community.

for whatever reason it happens here.

i think its so guys can justify how pathetic this platform has been for the past two years. NO company has pushed the envelope like they do in other platforms and to some degree its degenerated the community to accept a pathetic end result and still be happy if need be.

[Darksun280]

Originally Posted by palerider me = knuckle head how many injectors are they gonna add initially?

fuckers are going for 8 lol

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by Darksun280 fuckers are going for 8 lol

lol.... see? i told you. they didnt even fucking blink when it came time to add it.

[Darksun280]

Originally Posted by palerider lol.... see? i told you. they didnt even fucking blink when it came time to add it.

I already saw the intake manifold for 4 running on my boys car and i have no idea where there going to fit another 4 injectors.

Yeah guys a Hahn new it was a dead issue apparently. They have connects with GM and were told not to even knock there heads trying to get more out the factory DI system. There looking for a faster solution and the PI naturally will be the first to some up. Whats fucking stupid is they can't even swith the head cause it would just be a LSJ motor founf int he s/c cobalts instead of an LNF i think.

[fbpem1]

they will probably add them on the back of the intake in the runners, thats commen place for 8 injectors.

[Darksun280]

Originally Posted by fbpem1 they will probably add them on the back of the intake in the runners, thats commen place for 8 injectors.

I don't know how we would be able to fit it I forgot this guy changed out the motor mounts to rotate the motor towards the fire wall since the turbo mounts under the motor anyway. so they got a stupid amount of room at the front of a car for the big doofy intake manifold

[fbpem1]

or right on top of the other rail, it dosn't matter they can go anywhere you slamming air and fuel into the motor one way or antoehr, its GOING in there.

[phailerider]

Originally Posted by Darksun280 I don't know how we would be able to fit it I forgot this guy changed out the motor mounts to rotate the motor towards the fire wall since the turbo mounts under the motor anyway. so they got a stupid amount of room at the front of a car for the big doofy intake manifold

these are the solutions that i cant wait to figure out because these solutions dont invovle physics. and thats whats gonna get us all excited again.
trying to fuel a motor with a system that is physically impossible? thats whats driven us bonkers.

i feel like i have accepted jesus and im saved forever once i decided to go PI...lol. it was just this wonderful wieght of my chest to know that all this was finally going to amount to something. and the issues weve faced would be gone forever. that we would have a real car again....lol... praise jesus...paraise the lord for pi!!